Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Thor84 on January 27, 2009, 12:23:16 AM
-
with the me 262, 163, and ar234 in the game and a relative land based airforce advantage. i dont see any reason why the f6f-5n isnt in the game as even a perk plane. this hellcat version packed 2 20mm cannons as well as its 6 .50 cal machine guns. not to mention that another version of the f6f-5 had a wing mounted radar unit as did the tbm. all i wish to see would be the addition of the f6f-5n. and maybe the perfomance of the hellcat overall improved to the real specs.... slight max speed increase in level flight out to 345mph ehich is what the f6f-5 had and with the 4 blade prop that was also on that model, which would give a slight acceleration increase.
-
with the me 262, 163, and ar234 in the game and a relative land based airforce advantage. i dont see any reason why the f6f-5n isnt in the game as even a perk plane. this hellcat version packed 2 20mm cannons as well as its 6 .50 cal machine guns. not to mention that another version of the f6f-5 had a wing mounted radar unit as did the tbm. all i wish to see would be the addition of the f6f-5n. and maybe the perfomance of the hellcat overall improved to the real specs.... slight max speed increase in level flight out to 345mph ehich is what the f6f-5 had and with the 4 blade prop that was also on that model, which would give a slight acceleration increase.
Somebody get me a history book.
When in gods name did the tbm carry a mounted radar?
And the F6F-5N was, well... idk never heard of it. I watch the military channel (yes i like to watch it...) and they never said anything about 20mm cannons and radar on a F6F Hellcat.
Ive got to stop drinking... Its getting to make me think a B-17 can launch a Black hawk heli and carry 21 gunners... or 12 gunners... Eh, i give up. Give him what he wants.
-FYB
-
thats the advatage to have the books to back it......... and the history channel has battlefield 360 which spends about 20 min of an episode talking about the night ops and use of aircraft mounted radar off the lucky "E". really good book that i recommend is the encyclopedia of aircraft of wwII. check it out. theres a lot of good information that will supprise anyone. the real question is why not have these versions? theres how many spits and f4u's amongst other aircraft. i know the comparison of the 262 to a hellcat is a bit out there but it was just to show that there are other far more used aircraft.......
-
IIRC the standard for the f6f-5n was still 6 50's. Some field modifications were made, adding 2 20mm in place of a set of 50 guns. This left the modified planes with 2 20mm and 4 50 cals.
-
The -Ns were night fighters, and even so, very few of them ever used the 2x20mm armament [some did, mind you, but they were the minority]. Almost all of 'em had 6x50cals for many reasons.
-
Somebody get me a history book.
When in gods name did the tbm carry a mounted radar?
And the F6F-5N was, well... idk never heard of it. I watch the military channel (yes i like to watch it...) and they never said anything about 20mm cannons and radar on a F6F Hellcat.
Ive got to stop drinking... Its getting to make me think a B-17 can launch a Black hawk heli and carry 21 gunners... or 12 gunners... Eh, i give up. Give him what he wants.
-FYB
NIght fighters had em. Think the Marines had corsairs with radar too.
Actually there was an episode of Dogfights that dealt with the Hellcats with radar. Didnt Butch O'hare get shot down in a nightfighter flying with a TBM with the radar?
Dont k now about the 20 mils, althou I read something recently that mentioned it, first Id heard of it. Ill try and find where I found it.
-
point really is that more and more information has come to light about a lot of the fighters. im a hellcat pilot no question there. i just want to see more versions of it. and yes butch o'hare did go down in a radar equipped tbm. i wouldnt mind having a weapon package with 2x20mm and 4 .50cals. and aircraft mounted radar would add a whole different dimension to the game... the radar isnt really my concern. im sure that there are other aircraft such as the p-40 that have little to none of there other versions..... for example there was a limited run of p-40s that had the merlin engine. like i said earlyer though, there are more than enuf land based fighters that are very good with good variety. so if anyone can answer the why not question........... and being fairly new to ah, i want to personally thank anyone that has made a skin for any of these vehicles. and for the continuing improvements to the game. being that the hellcat is my personal favorite, thanks greebo for the vf-27 skin in particular.
-
This topic's been done. Others might better recall which threads had the most conclusive discussions. Just two you could find with a quick and dirty search:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,191489.0.html
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,203418.0.html
-
point really is that more and more information has come to light about a lot of the fighters. im a hellcat pilot no question there. i just want to see more versions of cannon equipped planes.
Fixed.
And, about 1200 P-40F's with Packard/Merlin engines were produced. They had single stage, two-speed superchargers vs. the two stage, two-speed supercharger used in the Mustang that gave it it's high-altitude performance.
There's another thread on the board somewhere stating the P-40's performance was pretty much the same powered by an Allison Engine or a Merlin.
wrongway
-
The -Ns were night fighters, and even so, very few of them ever used the 2x20mm armament [some did, mind you, but they were the minority]. Almost all of 'em had 6x50cals for many reasons.
They actually only had FIVE of the .50cals. One was removed to offset the weight of the radar installation in the wing.
Although maybe I'm thinking about the F4U-2s and the radar installation on the F6F was in the drop tank's position. Been a while since I've looked into them.
-
the history channel has battlefield 360
Oh dear. :uhoh
-
Why would you want night fighters?
-
if you read up on the f6f-5n youd find out that only the radar equipped version was the night fighter. the point is only to have more versions of aircraft in the game....... mainly in this instence the 4 bladed prop and the cannon package for the hellcat. there was one post in here where someone denied that any of these options ever existed...... being that its a game that is a simulation of wwII with several versions of planes like the spit noone has actually com up with a valid reason as to why any of these option cant be in the game........... i know im focused on the hellcat but there are other aircraft that could use the rest of there versions...... would just give more variety to the game. maybe get people to fly other aircraft.
-
I have no problem with adding a night fighter to the game. Since we do not have true night, there is no way to take advantage of the radar capabilities though. I guess it could be used in situations where radar is down or an enemy cons location is not exactly known. Maybe adding the options that this airplane has a perked ordnance situation might be a better avenue.
-
if you read up on the f6f-5n youd find out that only the radar equipped version was the night fighter.
This was the purpose of the "N" designation.
F6F-5N. F4U-4N. F4U-5N. "N" meant it was a Night Fighter. The only exceptions were the F4U-2, which I think was before they started using the "N" designation, and I believe the F7F because they were ALL radar-equipped.
If it was an F6F-5N it was a radar-equipped night fighter. PERIOD. Otherwise it was the same airframe as the F6F-5. And as Krusty pointed out, only a handful even mounted the 20mm. Most retained the all-machine gun package.
-
if you look on the wing of the TBM there is a radar antenna
-
The -Ns were night fighters, and even so, very few of them ever used the 2x20mm armament [some did, mind you, but they were the minority]. Almost all of 'em had 6x50cals for many reasons.
Were the 20mm guns a field mod?
-
I think all F6Fs came from the factory with the capability to mount the 20mm in place of one of the machine gun pairs, but only a SMALL handful of nightfighters ever actually did.
And yes, I realize the danger of even mentioning that in front of all the squeakers.
-
And yes, I realize the danger of even mentioning that in front of all the squeakers.
Roger that. :lol I was more curious than anything. Thanks for the info...
:salute
Way
-
The American version of the Hispano had a jamming problem when mounted in a wing, so it's no wonder it was rare. It's also a good reason for perking the F4U-1C, even if its performance doesn't quite justify it.
-
The American version of the Hispano had a jamming problem when mounted in a wing, so it's no wonder it was rare. It's also a good reason for perking the F4U-1C, even if its performance doesn't quite justify it.
You don't perk it because the guns jammed, you perk it because the alternative is a sky full of F4U-1Cs spraying and praying.
Not much need for a night fighter when you don't have night to fight in; that wasn't exactly the main event during the war anyway. It's only recently all-weather (night is a weather) has become the standard. Even the F-16 wasn't originally designed for night work.
Now, if you want to provide local dot-dar to radar aircraft (even when out of ground radar coverage or when the local radar is disabled) that might prove entertaining.
-
Now, if you want to provide local dot-dar to radar aircraft (even when out of ground radar coverage or when the local radar is disabled) that might prove entertaining.
Outside of Scenario play, that's the only way I see radar-equipped aircraft being useful. It WOULD add an interesting dimension to play, though.
-
Outside of Scenario play, that's the only way I see radar-equipped aircraft being useful. It WOULD add an interesting dimension to play, though.
Oohhhh....scenarios...gosh, doesn't this add possibilities...
-
point is include them all. p-47n is in the game allthough may be a bad example...... why do we have 5 or more versions of a couple and then one of another. give us the option of haveing the 20mm in the hellcat and the 4 bladed prop over the 3 blade. options for all the aircraft would be nice. especially when we are in the late war arenas. late war being the most adanced part of the war.. just makes sense. essentially when we fly the hellcat right now we are in the f6f-3. im sure if you all thought for a few min that you all could find versions of aircraft or gvs that you would all like to be able to use and find an opposing vehicle that there are a few versions of. we all lobby for the changes we want. i wouldnt have started this if i hadnt read up on the versions of the hellcat. all i want are the same options for the hellcat as other more popular aircraft within the realm of what they actually did.
-
The only F6F that I can find ANY information about utilizing the four-bladed prop was the XF6F-6, which never saw combat. In fact I think there were only two built at all.
-
point is include them all. p-47n is in the game allthough may be a bad example...... why do we have 5 or more versions of a couple and then one of another. give us the option of haveing the 20mm in the hellcat and the 4 bladed prop over the 3 blade. options for all the aircraft would be nice. especially when we are in the late war arenas. late war being the most adanced part of the war.. just makes sense. essentially when we fly the hellcat right now we are in the f6f-3. im sure if you all thought for a few min that you all could find versions of aircraft or gvs that you would all like to be able to use and find an opposing vehicle that there are a few versions of. we all lobby for the changes we want. i wouldnt have started this if i hadnt read up on the versions of the hellcat. all i want are the same options for the hellcat as other more popular aircraft within the realm of what they actually did.
Good point, you don't hear or see much about the F4U-1C's but we have them!
-
Good point, you don't hear or see much about the F4U-1C's but we have them!
Interesting point, actually. It is better to appreciate what we have or complain about what we don't? "I have the F4U-1C, why can't I have the F4U-4C?" as opposed to "Thanks for the F4U-1C!!"
I suspect the initial request is hugely non-trivial. Were it otherwise we would already have those variants.
-
why do we have 5 or more versions of a couple and then one of another. give us the option of haveing the 20mm in the hellcat and the 4 bladed prop over the 3 blade.
Because they performed differently. Because they actually saw combat in squadron strength. Because they fill a niche.
Think of it this way, we already have the F6F-5N in game just without the radar and the 20mm, that rarely, if ever actually saw combat.
wrongway
-
the game f6f-5 doesnt have the performance of the actual f6f-5. and the 4 bladed prop was most certainly used. very late in the war.
-
What's your source on that? I've never seen anything on four-bladed props on the F6F outside of test mules.
-
This thread so makes me wish my grandfather was still alive; could ask him about F6Fs since he flew them. I can check his personal belongings we have, that may some info, seeing as that would likely be some of the more reliable sources. Got his Journal, Picture book and Pilot log, maybe some mention of these models. :)
Personally I am happy with the F6F-5 we have now, it flies great. :)
-
What's your source on that? I've never seen anything on four-bladed props on the F6F outside of test mules.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/f6f.jpg)
:noid
-
Bronk,
As I said: Test mules. Where was that photo taken? What unit was it attached to? There's no indication in that photo that it was deployed to the combat area.
-
Bronk,
As I said: Test mules. Where was that photo taken? What unit was it attached to? There's no indication in that photo that it was deployed to the combat area.
Shhh you're spoiling it. :D
Xf6f-6
-
Lol!
Don't encourage him, you'll only get his hopes up. But then again it makes it more fun to dash them again. :D
-
so all of you wouldnt want any of these versions in game? all you guys seem to do is complain about ideas unless they are your own. or is it that none of you would want to face down the versions in game............. all my wish is to have the performance brought up to snuff and the gun package that includes the 20mms. radar equipped aircraft could have there uses but not the focus that i was looking at. and on a side note, night fighting would be great. ive been told that ahI had night fighting but people cryed about it and couldnt adapt. bring on the all weather and night combat. have more of a challenge than dealing with other pilots in ideal conditions.
-
so all of you wouldnt want any of these versions in game? all you guys seem to do is complain about ideas unless they are your own. or is it that none of you would want to face down the versions in game............. all my wish is to have the performance brought up to snuff and the gun package that includes the 20mms. radar equipped aircraft could have there uses but not the focus that i was looking at. and on a side note, night fighting would be great. ive been told that ahI had night fighting but people cryed about it and couldnt adapt. bring on the all weather and night combat. have more of a challenge than dealing with other pilots in ideal conditions.
Seriously... The pic I posted is of the XF6F-6. The "X" designation means experimental... we wont get that in game.
As for the hizooka equipped hellcat.. sure way on down the line. More important/numerous ac to be added first.
-
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/f6f.jpg)
:noid
*touch screen* :eek: So SHINY. :O
-FYB
-
so all of you wouldnt want any of these versions in game? all you guys seem to do is complain about ideas unless they are your own. or is it that none of you would want to face down the versions in game............. all my wish is to have the performance brought up to snuff and the gun package that includes the 20mms. <snip>
I'd go after an XF6F-6 any day in my FG-2D...
I think you're reading us wrong, Thor; we're not opposed to any aircraft that fit the model (saw combat in WWII). Yet another late-war monster ride is not high on my list, but there are plenty who disagree. No matter what they do some will love it, some will call it a waste of time, some will just be happy to have shiny newness in the hanger.
New versions of existing aircraft is always a good suggestion.
-
so all of you wouldnt want any of these versions in game? all you guys seem to do is complain about ideas unless they are your own. or is it that none of you would want to face down the versions in game............. all my wish is to have the performance brought up to snuff and the gun package that includes the 20mms. radar equipped aircraft could have there uses but not the focus that i was looking at. and on a side note, night fighting would be great. ive been told that ahI had night fighting but people cryed about it and couldnt adapt. bring on the all weather and night combat. have more of a challenge than dealing with other pilots in ideal conditions.
The point is you're asking for something that DID NOT SEE COMBAT. The four-bladed prop was NEVER installed on an operational Hellcat in the field, but on TWO test mules. The 20mm cannon package option was EXTREMELY rare. You're talking about maybe a couple dozen at BEST of an aircraft of which more than 12,000 were built--Check your numbers, but this is even FEWER than the number of F4U-1Cs and Ta-152. The instant you slap 20mms on the F6F you'll be seeing usage in the mains FAR disproportionate to its availability during the actual war.
I'm not saying that if there's a problem in the flight model it shouldn't be fixed. I'm also not saying that there's no place for night-fighters: I'd LIKE to see it, but the utility is going to be so limited that there's other aircraft that are MUCH more badly needed first. Night combat was EXTREMELY limited during the actual war: most full-time night-fighter squadrons saw the bulk of their combat action during daylight alongside "normal" fighter squadrons (you could count on one hand the number of all-night aces in the USN/MC and USAAF during WWII).
-
point is include them all. p-47n is in the game allthough may be a bad example...... why do we have 5 or more versions of a couple and then one of another. give us the option of haveing the 20mm in the hellcat and the 4 bladed prop over the 3 blade. options for all the aircraft would be nice. especially when we are in the late war arenas. late war being the most adanced part of the war.. just makes sense. essentially when we fly the hellcat right now we are in the f6f-3. im sure if you all thought for a few min that you all could find versions of aircraft or gvs that you would all like to be able to use and find an opposing vehicle that there are a few versions of. we all lobby for the changes we want. i wouldnt have started this if i hadnt read up on the versions of the hellcat. all i want are the same options for the hellcat as other more popular aircraft within the realm of what they actually did.
There's a reason we have... for example... 6 versions of the Bf.109 and a singular F6F. Why? The Messerschmitt Bf.109 saw combat in WWII in Europe from September 1st, 1939 until May 8th, 1945. It was even in use several years before and after the war. During the whole WWII period, it was one of the Luftwaffe's two (and for a few months three) main frontline fighter aircraft. It's the second most produced fighter aircraft of all time. It was the preferred mount of the highest scoring aces of all time. It had a plethora of versions with different purposes and performance. It saw combat in all European combat theaters.
Really, if HTC wanted to, they could add several more 109's and not be extremely redundant (that's talking from a Luftweenie's perspective though :D )
The F6F was an important aircraft, no doubt. But it's not really fair to draw comparisons to the 109. I'm not going to claim to be any kind of an expert on the Hellcat, I'll merely parrot what I've read... it saw combat first on September 1st, 1943, and was used for the last two years of the war, and then replaced by the Bearcat. From what I've read, it seems that the two main day fighter variants of the Hellcat were the F6F-3 and the F6F-5... I don't know why we don't have the -3, I'd imagine HTC had some reason for not modeling it when they redid the Hellcat several months ago, but it escapes me. Only a little over 12,000 Hellcats were built.
I'd love to see the F6F-3 to liven up the Pacific a bit, but you really can't expect HTC to have 6-7 variants of the Hellcat.
-
you want to talk limited action. the f4u wasnt carrier qualified till very late in the war. yet we seem to have more than enuf versions of that flying around. the reason it wasnt qualified was the visibility was horrible when on approach to the carrier. and they had a tendancy to slip the tail twards the superstructure of the carrier. heres a great point, EVERY HELLCAT PRODUCED WAS CAPABLE OF REPLACING A PAIR OF .50s WITH A PAIR OF 20mm. was and option from the start. a gun package wouldnt be hard to do. while we are at it do you guys think they should put in all the p-40 versions ? or is getting what we have all set and done to much?
-
as far as the source of me knowing that the f6f-5 used 4 bladed props in rarity.... my grandfather.
-
In other words, an unverifiable source?
-
my grandfather worked for pratt and whitney and started in 1942. he was the lead draftsmen and personally watched testing and the intial deployment of the refitted f6f-5
-
William Henry F6F-5N Night Fighter September 12, 1944 saw the introduction of the new F6F-5N’s for VF(N)-41 flying from the deck of USS Independence CVL-23. There were 1,432 of the Night Fighter version built with APS-6 radar housed in a pod attached to the starboard wing. This provided pilots with a radar picture of another aircraft up to 5.5 miles away and a ship up to 20 miles. F6F-5N pilots had to undergo a rigorous 29 weeks of schooling where they would learn how to rely totally on their instruments since they would be flying at night in the dark with no visual reference for navigation or altitude. Originally armed with 6 .50 caliber machine guns, 3 per wing, some of the later versions came with 4 .50 caliber machine guns and 2 long barrel Hispano 20mm cannons that replaced the 2 inner .50 caliber guns. The Night Fighters were given strict orders that once they located a plane on radar they couldn’t fire a shot until they could get close enough to identify the target as friend or foe. As it turned out most of the F6F-5N’s flew daytime missions with other versions of the F6F. This would allow the radar equipped Hellcats to locate the enemy and guide their group towards them. The top USN Night Fighter ace was Lt. William E. Henry, Executive Officer (XO) of the VF(N)-41 squadron. He was credited with 6.5 nighttime and 4 daytime victories and the last victory for the USN F6F-5N.
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/gulliphoto/WW2/F6F5N.jpg)
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/gulliphoto/WW2/HellcatF6F-5Nandcannon.jpg)
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/gulliphoto/WW2/F6F-5n.jpg)
Also, it is documented that some Hellcats were thought to have 20mm Cannons but it turns out that the inner 50 cal was simply extended outward. a 4 bladed prop does not mean more speed but more efficiency for the motor. With all respect to your grandfather, it may be a source of information to you but for it to viable, it needs to documented and filed. I can say how George Washington is my cousin but without proof, it is not valid. Yes, I have proof. :aok
The point of the forums is to attempt to have a civil conversation; a debate. The only person I saw clueless and shooting down any idea was the first reply who referred to drinking to much. Clue: refers himself to drinking to much. Answer: A Clueless stick.
F6F Hellcat, FV-1 (Model G-50) - USN shipboard fighter. 1pClwM rg; span: 42'10" length: 33'7". Contrary to popular legend, the Hellcat was not specifically designed to cope with the Japanese Zero; it was in preliminary design stages as an improved F4F well before the outbreak of WW2. Planned production of F6F-1 by Canadian Vickers as FV-1 never materialized.
F6F-5 1944 = 2000hp P&W R-2800-10W (v: 366/166/89); new canopy, cowling, fairings, modified tail, underwing bomb racks; some with radar pod. POP: 7,870, of which some were converted as drone controllers -5D and drones -5K for the Korean War; 2 became XF6F-6.
F6F-5N 1944 = Radar night fighter conversions of F6F-5. POP: 1,434, of which 80 Lend-Lease to Fleet Air Arm as Hellcat II, aka NF-11.
F6F-5P 1944 = Cameras added.
XF6F-6 1944 = 2100hp R-2800-18W, four-blade prop; v: 417. POP: 2 conversions from F6F-5 [70188, 70913].
source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F6F_Hellcat
"The next and most common variant, the F6F-5, featured improvements such as a more powerful R-2800-10W engine housed in a slightly more streamlined engine cowling, spring-loaded control tabs on the ailerons, deletion of the rear-view windows behind the main canopy, an improved, clear view windscreen with a flat armored-glass front panel replacing the curved perspex panel and internal armor glass screen and numerous other minor advances.[9][13] Another improvement in the F6F-5 was the availability of more potent armament than the standard six .50 caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns. Trials with cannon-armed Hellcats were not followed up by a production version; although all F6F-5s could carry an armament mix of a pair of Hispano 20mm (0.79 in.) cannon, one mounted in each of the inboard gun bays, with a minimum of 220 rounds per gun, along with two pairs of .50 caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns, with 400 rounds per gun, this configuration was only used on many later F6F-5N night fighters. [14]
Two F6F-5s were fitted with the 18-cylinder 2,100 hp (1,567 kW) Pratt and Whitney R-2800-18W two-stage blower radial engine which was also used by the F4U-4 Corsair. The new Hellcat variant was fitted with a four-bladed propeller and was called the XF6F-6. The aircraft proved to be the best performer in the series with a top speed of 417 mph.[9] The war ended before this variant could be mass-produced.[15]
14 Kinzey 1987, p. 27.
15 Sullivan 1979, p. 46.
- Kinzey, Bert. F6F Hellcat in detail and scale (D&S Vol.26). Shrewsbury, UK: AirLife Publishing Ltd., 1987. ISBN 1-85310-603-8.
Kinzey, Bert. F6F Hellcat in detail and scale (D&S Vol.49). Carrollton, Texas: Squadron/Signal Publications Inc., 1996. ISBN 1-888974-00-1.
-Sullivan, Jim. F6F Hellcat in action. Carrollton, Texas: Squadron/Signal Publications Inc., 1979. ISBN 0-89747-088-5.
-
my grandfather worked for pratt and whitney and started in 1942. he was the lead draftsmen and personally watched testing and the intial deployment of the refitted f6f-5
That is all fine Thor, just it needs to be verified aka Documented and filed. From all the research I have done so far, 4 bladed Hellcat's were not seen in combat. I am not saying I am 100% on this but was not able to find any source that states 4 bladed hellcats saw action. All points to experimental 'cats.
Why a 4 blade? More power? That is engine configuration.
-
you want to talk limited action. the f4u wasnt carrier qualified till very late in the war. yet we seem to have more than enuf versions of that flying around. the reason it wasnt qualified was the visibility was horrible when on approach to the carrier. and they had a tendancy to slip the tail twards the superstructure of the carrier. heres a great point, EVERY HELLCAT PRODUCED WAS CAPABLE OF REPLACING A PAIR OF .50s WITH A PAIR OF 20mm. was and option from the start. a gun package wouldnt be hard to do. while we are at it do you guys think they should put in all the p-40 versions ? or is getting what we have all set and done to much?
The F4u was carrier qualified from its initial deployment. It was removed for logistical reasons. There was one or two F4u squadrons on carriers vs. dozens of F6 squadrons. Getting spare parts and getting them to the right place was problematical.
F6's were capable of mounting 20mm cannons but rarely did. Again, logistics and the U.S. military decided early on that there was an advantage with all .50 cal. armed fighters.
More P-40 versions? Would it serve a purpose?
I just think the "I want the uber (rare) cannon bird is a whine for a plane to compensate for a lack of (something) in ability. Fly a C hog. They have big cannons.....
wrongway
-
The F4u was carrier qualified from its initial deployment. It was removed for logistical reasons. There was one or two F4u squadrons on carriers vs. dozens of F6 squadrons. Getting spare parts and getting them to the right place was problematical.
F6's were capable of mounting 20mm cannons but rarely did. Again, logistics and the U.S. military decided early on that there was an advantage with all .50 cal. armed fighters.
More P-40 versions? Would it serve a purpose?
I just think the "I want the uber (rare) cannon bird is a whine for a plane to compensate for a lack of (something) in ability. Fly a C hog. They have big cannons.....
wrongway
Actually, he has turned into one lethal F6F pilot. He is just wanting to see different variants of the plane. We do have some variants of other aircraft so why not more on a popular plane. Personally, it would be a good idea to throw in a night fighter not because of night time flights which does not exist often in AH but to use them like an "AWACS" type of strategy. Read my previous reply as in the real war that is what they did. Not just the F6F-5N but other night fighters like the P61. I would like to see HTC develop the A-26 Invader first before any of these.
-
you want to talk limited action. the f4u wasnt carrier qualified till very late in the war. yet we seem to have more than enuf versions of that flying around. the reason it wasnt qualified was the visibility was horrible when on approach to the carrier. and they had a tendancy to slip the tail twards the superstructure of the carrier. heres a great point, EVERY HELLCAT PRODUCED WAS CAPABLE OF REPLACING A PAIR OF .50s WITH A PAIR OF 20mm. was and option from the start. a gun package wouldnt be hard to do. while we are at it do you guys think they should put in all the p-40 versions ? or is getting what we have all set and done to much?
Talk about apples and oranges.
The F4U wasn't carrier qualified but was HEAVILY engaged in the Pacific from land bases with the US Marine Corps from February of 1943 until the end of the war (as opposed to the F6F, which didn't see combat until September of that year) with as many as 10,000 built during WWII (~2000 produced after the war). The Corsair is in much of the same situation as the 109: produced in a large number of variants with different capabilities and uses.
F4U-1 - Initial combat version that saw action throughout 1943. Ours is a later -1 with water injection. I'd really like to see HTC remove WEP to downgrade her to an earlier model.
F4U-1A - First major upgrade. Water injection, bubble canopy. Ours is a late -1A with the addition of the paddle prop. Removing WEP from the -1 would be a further (and IMO welcome) differentiation between these two. Arguably the best pure dogfighter of the non-perked Hogs.
F4U-1D - Next major upgrade to see action. Removal of wing tanks, further canopy modifications (removal of the struts retained in the 1A). Most significantly a DRASTIC increase in ordinance load. The 1D adds a second bomb hard point and eight rocket stubs. This is HARDLY an insignificant difference from the 1A. The 1D--particularly those operating from land bases--could actually carry up to 4000lbs of bombs in addition to the rockets, including the center pylon (2000lber) which I continue to request (and Tiny Tims). She's the best bomb truck of the lineup, and arguably one of the best jabos in the game.
F4U-1C - 200 built, four 20mm cannon in place of the .50cal. Stubs for four rockets, plus the same two ordinance pylons as the 1D.
F4U-4 - Ultimate version to see combat in WWII. Drastically improved engine power plus the addition of a four-bladed paddle prop. MAJOR increases in acceleration and rate of climb--all areas where the earlier Hogs suffered. Something around 1500 or so were deployed to the Pacific. Best fighter in the game.
The only F4U variant to see combat we're missing is the F4U-2 night fighter. I'd love to see her added, too, but I understand that there would be VERY limited usefulness even in Scenario play.
Contrast this with the F6F which had TWO MAIN VARIANTS, the F6F-3 and -5. The only real subvariants to see use were the -3E and N, and -5N night fighters which are in the EXACT same situation as the F4U-2: Nice to have, but their utility in the game is going to be virtually non-existent so there's other aircraft that should be added first. I ALSO would like to see the -3, and wonder why HTC didn't add her as the -5 is inappropriate for the mid-war period. But the reason we don't have half a dozen F6Fs is because there WEREN'T half a dozen F6F variants.
Also, the 20mm cannon was mounted on the 5N, and the 5N ONLY. NO standard -5s carried the 20mm in combat. It DOES NOT MATTER that the plane was built with the capability. It did NOT SEE COMBAT in that configuration, so we WILL NOT GET IT.
-
the hellcats strength in this covorsation is also its weakness. the hell cat saw no major upgrades due to lack of need. rarely does an aircraft come out first time and not need a revamp. the hellcat provided this. unlike most era aircraft the hellcat didnt need 5 to 10 versions because it was already good at its job. the major improvements were engine and the advent of the high velocity rockets. untill that is they developed the radar units for it and used it as a night fighter/squadron lead aircraft. point being is why not have it? wouldnt take much in the way of modeling it with the hellcat in the game. hell, improve the existing f6f and throw a gun package in and call it a day till people really want the challenge of having to deal with aircraft that dont need ground radar. there are plenty of aircraft that should be modeled into the game. im asking for a slightly better version of something thats already here.
side note, i think that the average player under estimates the hellcat when they see it on the battlefield.
-
o and the 4 blade is just a lil better at sustaining speed during manuvers. 4 blade are high torque. 2 blades are high speed but fall off quikly when in a climb or hard turn. with a 4 blade prop you sacrifice a little speed but are able to keep more of it longer while in hard turns and climbs.
-
the hellcats strength in this covorsation is also its weakness. the hell cat saw no major upgrades due to lack of need. rarely does an aircraft come out first time and not need a revamp. the hellcat provided this. unlike most era aircraft the hellcat didnt need 5 to 10 versions because it was already good at its job. the major improvements were engine and the advent of the high velocity rockets. untill that is they developed the radar units for it and used it as a night fighter/squadron lead aircraft. point being is why not have it? wouldnt take much in the way of modeling it with the hellcat in the game. hell, improve the existing f6f and throw a gun package in and call it a day till people really want the challenge of having to deal with aircraft that dont need ground radar. there are plenty of aircraft that should be modeled into the game. im asking for a slightly better version of something thats already here.
side note, i think that the average player under estimates the hellcat when they see it on the battlefield.
Will you give it a rest rubbing it off over the 20mm gun package? It's NOT going to happen because on the F6F we have in the game IT WAS NOT USED. This is turning into as irritating a conversation as the n00kie and B-25 off a CV threads.
IF we get night fighters, I wouldn't mind a 5N alongside the F4U-2 and P-61, and night-fighter variants of the 110 and Ju-88.
IF we get the 5N I'd accept a PERKED option for the 20mm. BUT ONLY for the 5N because it was the only @$%&ing F6F that ever carried it in combat. And it would HAVE to be a perked option because even THEN it was exceedingly rare.
-
It would be nice to see the F6F-3 and correct performance for the F6F-5.
No cannons though. If that got added all you'd see in the game were cannon armed F6Fs when they were a tiny, tiny minority in WWII.
-
Will you give it a rest rubbing it off over the 20mm gun package? It's NOT going to happen because on the F6F we have in the game IT WAS NOT USED. This is turning into as irritating a conversation as the n00kie and B-25 off a CV threads.
IF we get night fighters, I wouldn't mind a 5N alongside the F4U-2 and P-61, and night-fighter variants of the 110 and Ju-88.
IF we get the 5N I'd accept a PERKED option for the 20mm. BUT ONLY for the 5N because it was the only @$%&ing F6F that ever carried it in combat. And it would HAVE to be a perked option because even THEN it was exceedingly rare.
i believe this is the wishlist Fourm. which means this gent has every right to wish for the F6F-5N all he wants.
Its this community that starts crap about anything anyone thinks would be fun to have in the game. He pays for this game like everyone else. now let him speak his mind and wish for something.
if yall would like to open a debate about it goto the Gen. Fourms and do it. leave this crap out of the wishlist fourms.
all in all Thor not a bad wish. if it was put up on a vote like HTC has been doing the past few planes we have gotten i doubt it would be voted in. however i think the radar thing would be cool. :salute
-
It would be nice to see the F6F-3 and correct performance for the F6F-5.
:aok
-
i believe this is the wishlist Fourm. which means this gent has every right to wish for the F6F-5N all he wants.
Its this community that starts crap about anything anyone thinks would be fun to have in the game. He pays for this game like everyone else. now let him speak his mind and wish for something.
if yall would like to open a debate about it goto the Gen. Fourms and do it. leave this crap out of the wishlist fourms.
all in all Thor not a bad wish. if it was put up on a vote like HTC has been doing the past few planes we have gotten i doubt it would be voted in. however i think the radar thing would be cool. :salute
IF we get night fighters, I wouldn't mind a 5N alongside the F4U-2 and P-61, and night-fighter variants of the 110 and Ju-88.
Try reading my whole post. I'm NOT against SOMEDAY adding night fighters. What I object to and he KEEPS asking for in this thread is the 20mm package on the standard -5 because, which was NEVER utilized by any -5 in combat. ONLY the 5Ns--and a handful at that--ever did. The 20mm should not be added to the -5.
-
Try reading my whole post. I'm NOT against SOMEDAY adding night fighters. What I object to and he KEEPS asking for in this thread is the 20mm package on the standard -5 because, which was NEVER utilized by any -5 in combat. ONLY the 5Ns--and a handful at that--ever did. The 20mm should not be added to the -5.
He is just trying to express his want of the 5N with cannons as an option to fly. It is his thread and wish so a civil debate is all that is needed. I like these wishlist threads for it starts a conversation in which you really find out who knows what about an Aircraft if anything at all.
Can we have subs now?? :P :salute
-
Read HIS entire post:
hell, improve the existing f6f and throw a gun package in and call it a day till people really want the challenge of having to deal with aircraft that dont need ground radar.
He's asking for 20mm on the standard -5. NOT for a 5N with cannon. And he's been civilly told WHY it won't happen, but he keeps dragging it out.
-
Somebody get me a history book.
When in gods name did the tbm carry a mounted radar?
And the F6F-5N was, well... idk never heard of it. I watch the military channel (yes i like to watch it...) and they never said anything about 20mm cannons and radar on a F6F Hellcat.
Ive got to stop drinking... Its getting to make me think a B-17 can launch a Black hawk heli and carry 21 gunners... or 12 gunners... Eh, i give up. Give him what he wants.
-FYB
F6F-5N did have a crude radar pod on the end of it's right wing,There is some confusion on wheather the plane did have 20m's but most sources say that it was armed with 6 50's only. There was some gun barrel length's changed most likely for gunflash reasons.
-
F6F-5N did have a crude radar pod on the end of it's right wing,There is some confusion on wheather the plane did have 20m's but most sources say that it was armed with 6 50's only. There was some gun barrel length's changed most likely for gunflash reasons.
:aok
My long reply mentions this. I even found somewhere how the 20mm did not perform well on the Hellcat in tests.
-
the 20mm package was built in from the birth of the hellcat as an option. yes early test showed a jamming issue not fixed untill the f6f-5n. but it was an option non the less. that is documented fact. i would absolutly love to all the night fighters and actuall night time in game. its my understanding that there was night in ahI yet no night fighters.... why, i have no idea. everyone wants there own preferences brought to the game. this is my preference.
-
its my understanding that there was night in ahI yet no night fighters.... why, i have no idea. everyone wants there own preferences brought to the game. this is my preference.
Because at night in Aces High you still have ground controlled radar, and you can still see pretty well. Thus heavy nightfighters with gargantuan gun packages and onboard radar are useless. Though I think it would be interesting to see proper night in Special Events (with highly reduced visibility and plane mounted radar), from what I read about night combat it would be extremely boring for the MA's.
Like I said though, I think if we had a couple nightfighters it would make for some sweet Special Events...
Cruising around in a Ju88G lighting up Lancasters that can't even tell I'm there... that would be a blast :D
-
the 20mm package was built in from the birth of the hellcat as an option. yes early test showed a jamming issue not fixed untill the f6f-5n. but it was an option non the less. that is documented fact. i would absolutly love to all the night fighters and actuall night time in game. its my understanding that there was night in ahI yet no night fighters.... why, i have no idea. everyone wants there own preferences brought to the game. this is my preference.
It was a factory design spec option and that's it. The F6F-5 was never delivered from the factory or deployed with the 20mm cannon weapons package. The same thing with wanting the 4 blade prop, it's not going to happen either because as others have already noted, the 4 bladed prop was only on two test aircraft. You asking for the 4 bladed prop would be like me asking for the P-38K.
Just because the design specs stated that it could mount 20mm cannons, doesn't always mean they were deployed that way. For example, the P-38 was designed to carry the 37mm Oldsmobile cannon but in reality it never had that cannon mounted. But using your argument with the Hellcat, then the P-38 should have the option of loading up a 37mm cannon instead of the 20mm Hispano it carried because after all the design specs said it could be done.
As for the night time we used to have, it wasn't 'true night' and most would just up the gamma to see in the dark. In order to make a night fighter viable, we would need a more accurate 'night time model' as well as modeling of the various airborne radar units that were used and a measure to prevent players from upping the gamma to see in the dark.
ack-ack
-
do some offline missions, change it to night and no icons..... its very challenging.
-
well u guys dont seem to understand that the f6f-5n did indeed use the 20mm gun package and that this is the wishlist. i want the f6f-5n. end of that debate. f6f-3 woud be nice to along with the f6f-5 performance being corrected. is that simple enuf?
-
Without any 'real' night time in AH, a snow ball has a better chance in Hell than you getting the -5N added to AH.
ack-ack
-
IIRC the standard for the f6f-5n was still 6 50's. Some field modifications were made, adding 2 20mm in place of a set of 50 guns. This left the modified planes with 2 20mm and 4 50 cals.
Standard for the N was the 2x20, same for the P...the problem was the availability of the links for the 20mm rounds. Many N's had to be converted back to the 6 x .50 due to the lack of links. However both the N and P did operate in the 2x20mm configuration. I'm not sure if widewing was ever able to determine if VOF-1 was operating the P's with the 20mm or not in southern France, I know that pics of the 20mm -P's in VOF-1 markings have been posted here. The British did operate some of the Gannets (F6F-5) in the 2 x 20mm configuration as well.
-
Standard for the N was the 2x20, same for the P...the problem was the availability of the links for the 20mm rounds. Many N's had to be converted back to the 6 x .50 due to the lack of links. However both the N and P did operate in the 2x20mm configuration. I'm not sure if widewing was ever able to determine if VOF-1 was operating the P's with the 20mm or not in southern France, I know that pics of the 20mm -P's in VOF-1 markings have been posted here. The British did operate some of the Gannets (F6F-5) in the 2 x 20mm configuration as well.
I think the number of 20mm cannon equipped -5P photo/recce Hellcats was lower than the number of -5N Hellcats with 20mm cannons. I did post a picture in the first thread about this (think it was around 3-4 years ago) that showed a -5P in flight with the dual 20mm cannons and 4x .50s.
ack-ack
-
as far as the f6f-5n being a night fighter. the aircraft saw most of its action in the day. so day or night it would be nice to have and add some new tactics should htc model aircraft mounted radar. so all the nit picking is done about the facts. the only real solid answer will come in time. the only other thing i could ask is that the current hellcat get its actual performance.
-
:aok
My long reply mentions this. I even found somewhere how the 20mm did not perform well on the Hellcat in tests.
I know Bruce Porter who flew F6F-5N's with the Marines . I will ask him what his memory recalls about the plane.
-
The only complaint I've seen brought up about our F6F elsewhere is that the top speed in the game was taken from a known error in airspeed calibration caused by the pitot tube's location. The other performance characteristics fall right about where they should. I agree this SHOULD be fixed, but I think you're expecting that there's a modeling error that will either instantly turn the F6F into a super-plane or otherwise drastically alter the flight characteristics. In reality the only difference you're going to see is in level speed, (she still won't be any faster than the F4U-1D) any other changes wouldn't be very noticeable.
-
I think the number of 20mm cannon equipped -5P photo/recce Hellcats was lower than the number of -5N Hellcats with 20mm cannons. I did post a picture in the first thread about this (think it was around 3-4 years ago) that showed a -5P in flight with the dual 20mm cannons and 4x .50s.
ack-ack
The P was normally deployed just a couple per squadron. I'm not aware of it ever being flown in squadron strength. I do know that it was flown by one of the famous hellcat aces during the turkey shoot as a matter of chance.
-
I'm just saying instead of "golly gee, a night fighter version of the F6F sure would be swell, wouldn't it fellas?" All these type threads should be titled "I want a bigger gun." And we know what that implies....
:noid
Lots of threads with different planes but all the same:
P-51 with cannons
F6F with cannons
Spitfire with two cannons
Rare. Possible, but not typical.
I blame the LA7
wrongway
-
honestly i just want all the versions of the hellcat. and im not looking for the hellcat to be transformed into a super plane. lol. just some options. and the correct performance. the little bit of extra speed would be really useful.
-
You want an unfeasible wish, that's clear enough.
-
only unfeasable if all of you think that. or just dont want to have those options. i would bet that almost all of you dont like or fly the hellcat. prolly the majority of you also would be against wind, weather, more than just dusk. ive noticed a wind indicator in the game yet no wind. must have been to hard for the average person to pay attension to the bs needle in the planes that shows your over ground speed and the needle that shows airspeed and how those 2 needles can change with wind. all these features should have never been taken out of the game. whiners who couldnt adapt and lobbied for changes on these very forums cause a more simplified version. although prolly shouldnt get that discussion goin here.
-
ooh a shade ... let me get some popcorn.
-
only unfeasable if all of you think that. or just dont want to have those options. i would bet that almost all of you dont like or fly the hellcat. prolly the majority of you also would be against wind, weather, more than just dusk. ive noticed a wind indicator in the game yet no wind. must have been to hard for the average person to pay attension to the bs needle in the planes that shows your over ground speed and the needle that shows airspeed and how those 2 needles can change with wind. all these features should have never been taken out of the game. whiners who couldnt adapt and lobbied for changes on these very forums cause a more simplified version. although prolly shouldnt get that discussion goin here.
Lighten up.
-
i just hate how quikly people refuse ideas or wants verse actually liking an idea or adding positive thoughts. the only way any of these ideas would be a negative would be to the people that cant adapt. i do fine with the hellcat that we have now. especially with the fact that this is the only pc game ive ever played and im only on my 3rd month. fresh eyes see the best. i belong to a good squad that isnt afraid to teach or adapt to changes. thats what i bring here.
-
only unfeasable if all of you think that. or just dont want to have those options. i would bet that almost all of you dont like or fly the hellcat. prolly the majority of you also would be against wind, weather, more than just dusk. ive noticed a wind indicator in the game yet no wind. must have been to hard for the average person to pay attension to the bs needle in the planes that shows your over ground speed and the needle that shows airspeed and how those 2 needles can change with wind. all these features should have never been taken out of the game. whiners who couldnt adapt and lobbied for changes on these very forums cause a more simplified version. although prolly shouldnt get that discussion goin here.
Fly FSO, scenarios and snapshots if you want wind. Hell, we flew Rabaul one Snapshot in night-time conditions and it was a blast:
(http://vmf251-buccaneers.net/images/Media/Rabaul/03.png)
(http://vmf251-buccaneers.net/images/Media/Rabaul/14.png)
Then there was this fun setup in FSO last year, sneaking through 0 visibility cloud-cover over the Aleutians to attack Dutch Harbor:
(http://vmf251-buccaneers.net/images/Media/FSO/03-14-08/01.png)
However there's ALSO a limitation in the capabilities of the game engine's environment. As was previously noted, night is almost a moot point because you can just adjust your gamma to undo the effects. And while it IS possible to turn on wind and adjust cloud levels (the Aleutians campaign last March you COULD NOT SEE above ~7,000ft or so. The recent Battle of the Bulge matchup MAY have been even worse, with some targets virtually totally obscured almost down to ground level!) the game engine to my knowledge can't handle rain and snow.
Nor SHOULD it. These planes did NOT fly in adverse weather conditions. During the Aleutians campaign I think accidents due to the appalling weather inflicted HIGHER casualties among air crews than actual combat did. And there WAS no air support for the historical Ardennes offensive for a significant part of the battle for the very same reason (which in large part contributed to the early German successes. Had the Allied air forces been able to operate the Wehrmacht would have been severely mauled by Allied close air support). Historically the conditions we faced during the FSO campaign actually GROUNDED the air forces of both sides.
There was NO SUCH THING as an all-weather fighter. I'd LOVE to see night. It can be fun, and night fighters would add an interesting dimension to gameplay, but it needs to be handled realistically as well: It was a tiny, TINY part of the war.
-
tiny i understand. im thinking beyond the scope of aircraft when i bring up night fighting. we play a wwII sim and last time i checked, theres 24 hours in a day and at least give us an accelerated night. w/45min or so every few hours of real night. adverse weather flying i understand didnt happen. fog, clouds, etc did and were delt with. shouldnt have to goto a snapshot to get this. most of us arent kids and shouldnt have ever complained when there was wind or thick clouds. nor having to deal with aircraft that are supior to our own. i get shot down by something i dont change planes to cope i change my tactics.
-
However both the N and P did operate in the 2x20mm configuration. I'm not sure if widewing was ever able to determine if VOF-1 was operating the P's with the 20mm or not in southern France, I know that pics of the 20mm -P's in VOF-1 markings have been posted here.
I have yet to see a single F6F-5P with 20mm guns that wasn't a test plane or flown stateside by Grumman. I have not seen any photos of ANY -Ps in service with 20mm barrels. All, so far (and I checked back the last time this came up, looked all over), have been retrofitted to 6x50cal.
Just an FYI. :)
EDIT: I should specify in USN service. I don't rightly recall seeing any FAA birds either, but won't rule them out, as Hispanos are native to the Brits
-
f6f-5n were the version seen with 20mm.
-
ooh a shade ... let me get some popcorn.
this is my squadie and he is no shade account so knock that crap off about shades
-
only unfeasable if all of you think that. or just dont want to have those options. i would bet that almost all of you dont like or fly the hellcat. prolly the majority of you also would be against wind, weather, more than just dusk. ive noticed a wind indicator in the game yet no wind. must have been to hard for the average person to pay attension to the bs needle in the planes that shows your over ground speed and the needle that shows airspeed and how those 2 needles can change with wind. all these features should have never been taken out of the game. whiners who couldnt adapt and lobbied for changes on these very forums cause a more simplified version. although prolly shouldnt get that discussion goin here.
You do realize that the most that have replied have 1) played this game longer than you have 2) can pretty much out fly you in any plane in the plane set. So, I'd be careful with assuming people are against your wishes because you think they're somehow whiners.
Another reason why you'd neve see the F6F-5N added to the game is that it would render the regular F6F-5 Hellcat a hanger queen. Why up the regular Hellcat when you can up one with 20mm cannons?
ack-ack
-
only unfeasable if all of you think that. or just dont want to have those options. i would bet that almost all of you dont like or fly the hellcat. prolly the majority of you also would be against wind, weather, more than just dusk. ive noticed a wind indicator in the game yet no wind. must have been to hard for the average person to pay attension to the bs needle in the planes that shows your over ground speed and the needle that shows airspeed and how those 2 needles can change with wind. all these features should have never been taken out of the game. whiners who couldnt adapt and lobbied for changes on these very forums cause a more simplified version. although prolly shouldnt get that discussion goin here.
The wind was taken out for a few simple reasons: a) wind shear. It created a sudden jump in airspeed as you crossed the layer which caused planes to stall and a few other issues. It also made people fly at specific heights, just below or just above it and it gave the advantage to the country upwind. A possible solution could have been defining many wind layers with small increments in speed and/or direction, that will evolve slowly over time. Probably just to complicated to be worth it. b) It made bombing more difficult, especially in cross winds. At the time wind was in the arena, we had the full manual calibration and apart from the few dedicated bomber pilots, the other couldn't hit a thing. In principle this sounds good as it encourages developing of skill, but in practice it just made most player to dive-bomb instead of using the Norden sight.
By the way, the red needle does NOT show your ground speed. It happens to be your ground speed only when there is no wind...
Another reason why you'd neve see the F6F-5N added to the game is that it would render the regular F6F-5 Hellcat a hanger queen. Why up the regular Hellcat when you can up one with 20mm cannons?
The N would have much reduced performance due to the attached radar. HTC has never modeled airborne radar and we have a sort of radar already - in all planes. This would be an F6F with crap performance, that carries no ord, but better at the HO. I can think of a few better ways to waste development time.
-
I know Bruce Porter who flew F6F-5N's with the Marines . I will ask him what his memory recalls about the plane.
XO of VMF(N)-533. At Okinawa.
In the book Semper Fi in the Sky by Gerald Astor, he talks about his F6F5N with the cannons.
My 2 cents, would make a nice perk plane. 2 more cents I think that theres alot of other planes we need more, but Id like to see them ALL. Nothing wrong with choices, and opens up a whole new world for snapshots and FSO and the like. I would love to see night come back, if not in the MA, at least in the AvA and SEA.
-
The N would have much reduced performance due to the attached radar. HTC has never modeled airborne radar and we have a sort of radar already - in all planes. This would be an F6F with crap performance, that carries no ord, but better at the HO. I can think of a few better ways to waste development time.
You would think so but 5N sorties proved otherwise. It was effective in combat without any performance issues. I thought I posted that info in an earlier reply. If my memory is correct, it was able to carry 2K worth of ords.
-
Thor-
If you want a bit more realism in CFS, check out this:
http://www.targetrabaul.com/
It has been a year since I flown in there since most of all my gaming is on AH. It is a free game and a bit different game play. Just an important FYI:
print out instructions beforehand as you will need them to even just take off. This is not an auto take off or jump and go type of sim. You will need to keep an eye on a lot of things not represented in AH. For example, engine heat needs to be watched or you will be up the creek.
With targetware, you also can have WW1, WW2 MTO (Tobruk), and Korea. Korea is a lot of fun if you want to Dogfight in jets. As for the WW2 part of this game, you get traditional aircraft as you find in AH and then you get some planes you probably likely not see in AH.
If you check it out just have patients with the game. You will probably appreciate the simplicity of AH once you check this one out a few times. Then again, you give it time you will like the game. Remember, free to download and play but much more of a learning curve to fly.
-
For example, engine heat needs to be watched or you will be up the creek.
Well, you lost me there. Engine overheat is probably one of the most annoyingly overdone "features" I've ever see in a combat sim. It's one of the worst aspects of Il-2's flight model.
-
According to the F6F Pilots Instructions, and the F6F Service Manual I have, the 2 20mm guns replaced the two inboard .50's.
For a total of 2 -20mm's and 4 -.50's
(http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/albums/userpics/11078/f6f_8.jpg)
According to Tillman, in "Hellcat", the primary reason the 20's were not used in combat was due to a lack of flash suppressors. When the squadrons could get them (the flash suppressors) they would reinstall the 20's and have good success with them.
-
Well, you lost me there. Engine overheat is probably one of the most annoyingly overdone "features" I've ever see in a combat sim. It's one of the worst aspects of Il-2's flight model.
Sorry Sax. In Targetware, you need to watch engine overheat as if I remember right (it has been a while since I flown in there) the engine shuts off or something critical. That engine over heat is just one of many things you have to keep an eye on in the game. It is just one small element of the game and I used it as an example to show if someone wanted more realism he could get it in that game. Just like in the WW1 Mod in TW, engine torque really affects your plane and since a lot of Flight Sims rarely put engine torque into play, I was thrown off when I first flew WW1 mod thinking it was my stick going out of calibration. Few long term TW gamers told me it was the engine torque.
-
It is just one small element of the game and I used it as an example to show if someone wanted more realism he could get it in that game.
The problem is it's NOT realistic. It's an artificially-imposed handicap to prevent players from running full power all the time. These engines wouldn't just shut off or blow out the way they do in games like that and Il-2. Hell, they test ran R-2800s and I think Merlins for a good couple-hundred HOURS straight at maximum power without it blowing up or seizing. The power limitations in the operating procedures and regulations were in place purely for maintenance taking extra time to check it out before returning it to the line, not because your engine would blow up if you redlined the throttle for a couple hours.
There's been plenty of other threads about this.
-
The N would have much reduced performance due to the attached radar. HTC has never modeled airborne radar and we have a sort of radar already - in all planes. This would be an F6F with crap performance, that carries no ord, but better at the HO. I can think of a few better ways to waste development time.
The radar that was used on the F6F-5N really didn't have a significiant negative impact on the maneuverability though there was a reduction in speed of about 30mph and it was also able to carry ordnance as it was also used in both night and day time interdiction roles.
In short, it wouldn't be a F6F-5 with crap performance.
ack-ack
-
performance wouldnt be hindered to any real extent. if they give the current hellcat its speed back to where its supposed to be. the new hellcat with radar would fly exactly like our current hellcat. and as a few others have pointed out. the N did carry ords and was very successful. wtf is a shade?
-
What you don't seem to grasp is that the -5N would render the existing Hellcat a hanger queen.
ack-ack
-
as far as the the current hellcat being useless if there was another version...... simple solution... make the new version only be able to carry 250lbs bombs or something of that nature. keep it accurate to the real thing. but give all of us a reason to use the other version. make the new version a perk plane. theres more than enuf ways for it to be a fair aircraft. this is not a topic ill ever give up on..........
-
the current hellcat would have slightly better speed and roll rate.
-
What you don't seem to grasp is that the -5N would render the existing Hellcat a hanger queen.
ack-ack
I dont agree with that at all, thats like saying the D pony made the B a hanger queen (one of many examples). Every single N & P rolled of the factory configured with 2 x 20mm. Every single F6F-5 built was configured to accept the 20mm option. An F6F configured with 2 x 20mm wouldnt even rate as a perk ride (wouldnt have problem with it as a perk option however). I dont think it would crack the top 10 rides even with the 20mm option.
-
good point humble. never thought of that but non the less an excelant point. hell, an eny difference would render a solution. out of all of this theres no real reason it shouldnt be in the game.
-
I think the impact of having that big hulkin' dome out on one wing is being somewhat underestimated. There's nothing acting as a counterweight on the other side, so in a way its going to be like flying a P-38 with one engine powered down because the engine is going to be slightly off the center of mass. It may not be significant, but will definitely require more rudder input to keep her straight. Roll rate is almost sure to be affected. And 30mph is a SIGNIFICANT impact on top speed, especially if you consider the calibrated top speed is only off by ~10-15mph.
I don't think the 20mm cannon is going to quite relegate the -5 to the hangar.
And Thor, intentionally crippling one plane's performance to encourage use of another is a very poor approach.
-
its not crippling any plane....... the current hellcat is already slower than it should be and your wrong about the counter weight. the metal of the day was lead. and the weight was kept even. and if you ever noticed the natural p-factor pulls the right wing forward and drag would just be balanced by that on takeoff and landing. do you really think that this wasnt thought of and encountered when the plane was built?
-
I dont think it would crack the top 10 rides even with the 20mm option.
I'd have to look for Lusche's charts again, I can't seem to find them, but I'm pretty sure that the F6F in it's current configuration already eclipsed the La7 in usage a little while back.
Edit; whoops, F6F is #5 in total usage, just behind the La7 and just in front of the F4U1D.
-
its not crippling any plane.......
What do you call the suggestion of artificially restricting the 5N's bomb load to encourage useage of the -5?
-
This is all conjecture till someone finds documentation to htc standards... That's what should be argued about, not whether one player is so obsessed he'll "never give up". IMO this would go in the perk loadout category, and also IMO that category should have its own perk category. Not the same fighter perks as we already have, to put everyone on the same footing.
-
considering the f6f-5n had a 2000lbs ord cap. 2x250lbs bombs plus rockets maxes out the weight. that being said. how is that crippling the aircraft when its accurate.
-
Because I haven't seen anywhere that says the 5N was limited to 2x250lb bombs. Everything--including in this thread--points to no difference in ordinance load. There's also a big difference between external carrying capacity, and total weight. Total weight is more a matter of engine power. External carrying capacity depends a lot on the structure of the airframe and location and number of hard points.
The weight of the radar globe would have little effect on the 5N's ability to carry ordinance. It DOES mean the engine is going to have a bigger work load, so rate of climb, speed and acceleration are going to be affected accordingly.
-
all it is is math. bomb weight plus rockets. genraly 500lbs of bombs total and rockets..... or a drop tank and rockets. just a simple mission loadout.
-
Out of the factory Vought gave the F4U-1D a max combat loadout of 2x1000lb bombs and 8x5" HVAR rockets. By 1945 D-Hog was hauling upwards of 5000lbs of ordinance (I'm not sure on the weight of the 5" HVAR, but 1Ds were flying strike sorties carrying a 2000lb bomb on the center rack, a 1000lb bomb on each wing pylon, plus the rockets) on the exact same engine. The R-2800 was QUITE capable of lifting a significant amount of weight. Those Corsairs weren't going to climb very high or very fast, and they wouldn't be able to roll off a carrier with that load, but I HIGHLY doubt the Hellcat--which on its own wasn't much heavier than the F4U--would have too much trouble lifting the added weight of the integrated radome plus 2500-3000lbs of bombs and rockets.
-
Targetware is such a joke it's not funny. Engine settings, cooling rates, cooling flaps drag, are all constants. You plug in very very basic parameters and the game engine makes a blanket statement about how it will work regardless of how it really did work.
TW is so messed up that game "builders" are fighting their own code on everything from damage modeling (parts are stronger the heavier a piece of the aircraft is, for example) to engine modeling (most planes coded in the game don't even have documentation from the people coding them, about what the max continuous settings are, max WEP, max cruise, etc, they don't even know THEMSELEVES and yet we accept that they are qualified to code the planes for us?).
Don't even reference that game when it comes to "reality".
-
Here people: http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft_comparison.asp
Good comparing program.
Also, not going to debate TW as it was an after thought for Thor to check it out. Personally, TW was not that bad just wish it had a larger community and a few other changes.