Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: whiteman on February 12, 2009, 01:53:54 PM
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Just wondering if Tri-Color planes flew late into the war? All the pics I've seen of late war F6F's are the solid blue, but I was looking at this photo and looks like 41 is a tri-color. I'd say my eyes are tricking but that plane is clear as day white on bottom. Did they have two-tone or is this a Tri-Color.
(http://www.almansur.com/jollyrogers/vf17f6f5nobones.jpg)
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It's definitely tri-color. You can just make out the demarkation line on the cowling, so the non-specular sea blue is probably rather faded.
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shifty pointed out it looks like -3, no pylons and canopy is different from the others.
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Looks like a late war, maybe 3 colors, but I think it may only be 2. Easily distinguished is the prop hub is a brighter color than the others. But looking at the picture of the three planes in it, I would say that it's either a 1 or 2 color. That color that your seeing on the top maybe oil streak, thats were the exhaust comes out and on the bottom as well.
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Looks like a late war, maybe 3 colors, but I think it may only be 2. Easily distinguished is the prop hub is a brighter color than the others. But looking at the picture of the three planes in it, I would say that it's either a 1 or 2 color. That color that your seeing on the top maybe oil streak, thats were the exhaust comes out and on the bottom as well.
Disagree. If you look, you can see the darker upper shade extending back much further along the fuselage. More telling than that is that you can see it on the COWLING. If it was exhaust staining it woul be beginning AFT of the cowl flaps.
It's definitely tricolor, albeit as I suggested we're probably seeing a well-faded non-specular sea blue. If this is an F6F-3 still serving into 1944/45 when they changed to overall semi-gloss sea blue that wouldn't be surprising.
AFAIK the only two-color scheme the Navy and Marines used during the war was blue-gray over light-gray.
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I got a book around here with the same picture.Its Tri-Color and if I recall correctly from the book it was one of the last -3 f6fs of that unit.If ya want ill go look and see if I can find it.There was a cross over period where the tri color was phased out and the Glossy sea blue was phased in so I imagine there would be an overlap in paint jobs.
Pipz
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It's definitely tri-color. You can just make out the demarkation line on the cowling, so the non-specular sea blue is probably rather faded.
As Tex pointed out we both noticed the -3 Windscreen framing about the same time. You can easily see the difference looking comparing #41's windscreen to #22.
Sax I belive you're correct it is a tri color you can also see the demarkation line of two different blues just forward of the tail on the 41 bird.
<S>
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I've seen photos of Hellcats with the NS blue-gray/NS light gray camouflage scheme and I do recall seeing a picture of Flatley's "White 00" with a tri-color scheme but I think that was a -3 variant and not sure if he flew "White 00" with that scheme beyong '43.
Here's a picture of another -3 variant with the tri-color scheme but I don't know what year this was taken but looks like it may be a restored Hellcat
(http://www.airtoaircombat.com/images/hellcat_large.jpg)
ack-ack
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Looks like a restored F6F-5 to me Ack Ack. If it was a war time photo it would have been taken in the summer of 1943
because of the national markings being trimmed in red. That would mean it would be a F6F-3. The F6F-3 has the window behind the pilot's shoulder.
This one looks to be a F6F-5 which would not have worn the red trimmed national markings nor the tri color scheme.
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I have shown this photo to a 91 year old Grumman test pilot who lives here in Seattle,He also flew them in WW2 and he says that is a F6F-3 tri-color.He took one look at the photo and knew what it was.
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The F6F-3 has the window behind the pilot's shoulder.
Some of the early build F6F-5's had the window as well.
Pipz
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shifty pointed out it looks like -3, no pylons and canopy is different from the others.
I can bet that guy is ticked to be the only one in the Squadron with the outdated F6F
:lol
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Whiteman my Squadron book Hellcat Aces of WW2 page 65 says its a f6f-3 of VF-17.It says White 41 was one of a handful of late build F6F-3 that served into the Okinawa campaign and probably one of the last in task force 58.
Pipz
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Pipz I dug out my hellcat Aces of WWII and My squadron Signal F6F Hellcat in Action. I cannot find anything on late model F6F-3s having the rear window removed.
I found a site claiming the the later models F6F-5s had the rear window removed.
[3] F6F-5 HELLCAT IN SERVICE / XF6F-6 / POSTWAR SERVICE
* The second (and last) major production variant of the Hellcat was the "F6F-5", which performed its first flight on 4 April 1944 and entered production at the end of the month. The F6F-5 was an incremental improvement on the F6F-3, standardizing improvements introduced during F6F-3 production and adding a few new ones. The two variants were difficult to tell apart. The F6F-5 featured:
The R-2800-10W engine, as fitted to late-production F6F-3s.
Minor airframe changes, including a redesigned engine cowling with improved streamlining, a stronger tail assembly, and new ailerons. The Hellcat's ailerons control was regarded as heavy and tiring, partly because the machine was so stable laterally, and it was one problem with the machine that Grumman never quite managed to fix. The F6F-5 also featured a simplified canopy with the flat windshield, the original curved windshield haven proven to have no real aerodynamic advantage. Late production F6F-5s would delete the canopy rear window panels.
A stores pylon under the fuselage and one under the wing, for a total of three, each able to carry a 450 kilogram (1,000 pound) bomb. The Hellcat would also be evaluated as a torpedo-bomber, but this scheme would not go into service, though the big "Tiny Tim" unguided rocket was used in combat by Hellcats.
Three stub pylons under each wing, for a total of six, each able to carry a single 12.7 centimeter (5 inch) "high velocity air rocket (HVAR)".
The weapons pylons were also fitted to some late-production F6F-3s. Some late-production F6F-5s had gun armament of four 12.7 millimeter Browning machine guns and two 20 millimeter Hispano Mark II cannon, with the long-barreled cannon mounted in the inboard position and supplied with 200 rounds of ammunition each.
I guess it depends where you get your info. ;) I do know you can't base versions on paint schemes.
Below is an FG-1D Corsair. A Goodyear built F4U-1D basically. It's part of the collection at the Cavanaugh Flight Museum in Addison TX.
I took this photo last October. As you can see it has the tri color paint scheme. This aircraft was built in 1945 so it should be all blue.
Notice anything else? Check out the guns...
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc42/Johnvan52/F4U1-1.jpg?t=1234499854)
I posted picture back in October asking if and Goodyear made Corsairs had 20MM Cannon. The answer is no but Guppy35 explained to me it's probably a case of C model wings being installed on this FG-1D for looks more than anything.. As well as the paint scheme. By the way the bird is painted in VF-17 colors. In 1945 when this bird was built VF-17 was flying the F6F. So you can't go by paint jobs or even armament it seems when identifying restored warbirds.
Here's a link with a writeup about the Corsair above.
http://www.cavanaughflightmuseum.com/graphics/Corsair2.jpg
Twincam what is the name of the Grumman Test Pilot you mentioned? Thats a guy I'd love to spend a few hours with. :aok
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Pipz I dug out my hellcat Aces of WWII and My squadron Signal F6F Hellcat in Action. I cannot find anything on late model F6F-3s having the rear window removed.
I found a site claiming the the later models F6F-5s had the rear window removed.
Hello Shifty
I think we have a misunderstanding.You stated the F6F-3 had the rear window.I mentioned that some of the early production F6F-5 had them as well.Somewhere along the line they deleted the rear window during the F6F-5 production run.I mentioned it for conversation sake just to clarify that you cant distinguish between the -3 and -5 by the rear window only since some of the -5 had the window.
Sometimes I type stuff and I am not as clear as I thought.Or on the other hand sometimes I miss read things.Let me know if that clears up what I was trying to say.
I edited this in.......
As for the FG-1 having the cannon armed wings.One possible explanation is that when they were restoring the plane the original wings may have been damaged beyond repair.They may have used the wings of maybe even a later model Corsair because thats what was available.Restorations sometimes use parts from different variants simply because thats what they can get theyre hands on.Thats just one more posibility I thought I would throw in there.
Nice picture BTW thanks for posting them.Looks like that was an interesting trip!
Cya up and about!
Pipz
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I love the Cavanaugh Museum of Flight. Years ago when I was stationed in Tucson the Pima Air Museum was just a few miles from the base.
That was another fantastic place to visit.
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I got a question for ya Shifty....
The plane with the black wing in the foreground.At first glance seeing the black wing I thought it was a P61.Then I noticed the early star on the wing.I thought maybe it was a PBY but it looks as though the wheel well is in the wing.If I recall correctly the PBY tucked its wheels in the fuselauge.So what is it?<G>
Pipz
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My guess would have been a B-24, but looks like it's only a twin-engine aircraft.
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After looking at it again it wouldnt be a p61 because the engine was part of the tail boom which now I can see is not the case.Seeing black paint automaticly put p61 into my head.I think your rite Saxman about it being twin engine because you can see the gear well rite there.Hmmmmmmmmmmmm <G> I guess we will have to wait until Shifty stops back in to enlighten us.
Pipz
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It is a B-24 "Ol-927", thought the same but the gear is on the outside of the inside engines.
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Yes it is a B-24
A couple of more I took that day. Sorry i was on a Navy bird hunt only. :D
FM2
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc42/Johnvan52/FM21.jpg?t=1234541536)
TBM
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc42/Johnvan52/TBM1.jpg?t=1234541620)
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Just wondering if Tri-Color planes flew late into the war? All the pics I've seen of late war F6F's are the solid blue, but I was looking at this photo and looks like 41 is a tri-color. I'd say my eyes are tricking but that plane is clear as day white on bottom. Did they have two-tone or is this a Tri-Color.
(http://www.almansur.com/jollyrogers/vf17f6f5nobones.jpg)
The 41 plane is an F6F-3. The one in the fore ground is a 5 model. I would imagine that the 3 model was an older plane within the squad.
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I've seen photos of Hellcats with the NS blue-gray/NS light gray camouflage scheme and I do recall seeing a picture of Flatley's "White 00" with a tri-color scheme but I think that was a -3 variant and not sure if he flew "White 00" with that scheme beyong '43.
Here's a picture of another -3 variant with the tri-color scheme but I don't know what year this was taken but looks like it may be a restored Hellcat
(http://www.airtoaircombat.com/images/hellcat_large.jpg)
ack-ack
I don't think that is a restoration. I've seen the picture in a Hellcat book, and it still has the solid, or "hard" tail wheel on, which is almost always replaced to a pneumatic tail wheel in civilian birds.
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I wish I could say for sure. However the paint job just doesn't look authentic to me. I still maintain it's a restored F6F-5.
Especially considering the F6F-5 canopy and rear window, plus no late model F6F-3 should be wearing those national markings.
Also that aircraft is suspiciously similar to this one. In fact I think they're the same bird. Match the UHF or VHF Antenna on the spine as well as the exact Cammo pattern.
(http://www.ahoy.tk-jk.net/ImagesJapaneseAircraft/GrummanF6FHellcat.jpg)
(http://www.airtoaircombat.com/images/hellcat_large.jpg)
Compare that to a vintage F6F-3 photo from WWII in the same markings.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Hellcats_F6F-3%2C_May_1943.jpg)
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Also look at the glossy finish on the top photo. Tricolor birds were all non-specular.
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Also look at the glossy finish on the top photo. Tricolor birds were all non-specular.
The 3 color scheme was non specular sea blue which was more of a deep blueish green, intermediate blue and white undersides.
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Yes, I know (I even have the RGB codes to match the actual FS numbers for skinning purposes, and also used them on the VMF-251 squad site :p ). But the Intermediate Blue and Insignia White were non-specular as well.
I think the primitive technology of color film and photography available during WWII is distorting the non-spec sea blue in the period photo, which is ALSO why most modern aircraft painted to "match" use a much "bluer" dark blue in their tricolor markings.
The newer photos look like more of an insignia blue.
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I never realized the gear on the 24 was positioned there.Thanks for posting more pictures Shifty! :aok
Pipz
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NP Pipz, I never did either. As a matter of fact I didn't even notice it when I've been to the museum.
I guess I'm just not a bomber guy. :D
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Shifty, His name is John O'berto. He flew everything from dive bombers,avengers,corsairs,hellcats even a tiger before wars end.Some of the stories i have heard are just amazing , I can talk to him for hours lol, his family thinks its funny.
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Shifty, His name is John O'berto. He flew everything from dive bombers,avengers,corsairs,hellcats even a tiger before wars end.Some of the stories i have heard are just amazing , I can talk to him for hours lol, his family thinks its funny.
It's really neat to get to talk to those guys. There was an old P-38 pilot that lived here in Sulphur Springs I got to have lunch with
back in the late 90s. I wish I could remember his name now. I also met a WWII Luftwaffe pilot namedGunther Ludwig when I was staioned in Valdosta GA in the early 90s.
Those guys are so cool to talk to, too bad we're them so fast.
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Yes, I know (I even have the RGB codes to match the actual FS numbers for skinning purposes, and also used them on the VMF-251 squad site :p ). But the Intermediate Blue and Insignia White were non-specular as well.
I think the primitive technology of color film and photography available during WWII is distorting the non-spec sea blue in the period photo, which is ALSO why most modern aircraft painted to "match" use a much "bluer" dark blue in their tricolor markings.
The newer photos look like more of an insignia blue.
Most rebuilt WW2 aircraft are painted rather incorrectly. They tend to be painted glossy for cleaning purposes but at least they should get the colors right. I did see a F4U " Marine's dream" that had a spot on match for paint and finish. It was awesome. I believe that the zero at Chino museum finally got a correct paint job. Heck our own A6M2's gray paint scheme is incorrect. The actual color is a blue gray color. I had a piece of Zero fabric from the control surfaces and it matches almost exactly to model masters model paint for the A6M2.
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The only restored "Marine's Dream" I've ever seen photos of is HORRIBLY incorrect. The real Marine's Dream was an F4U-1 painted blue-gray over light-gray, with MoDex number White 576. The girl on the side of the cowl was wearing a white skirt and bikini top.
The "restored" version is an F4U-1D in tricolor. She was painted up using Ken Walsh's White 13 (which was ALSO an F4U-1 in blue-gray over light-gray, and he later flew an F4U-4 as White 13 in overall semi-gloss sea blue). Walsh's bird NEVER flew with the "Marine's Dream" nose art (she was primarily flown by Olander). Additionally, the nose art ITSELF is wrong (girl was in a blue skirt with red top and the text style and color as well).
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The only restored "Marine's Dream" I've ever seen photos of is HORRIBLY incorrect. The real Marine's Dream was an F4U-1 painted blue-gray over light-gray, with MoDex number White 576. The girl on the side of the cowl was wearing a white skirt and bikini top.
The "restored" version is an F4U-1D in tricolor. She was painted up using Ken Walsh's White 13 (which was ALSO an F4U-1 in blue-gray over light-gray, and he later flew an F4U-4 as White 13 in overall semi-gloss sea blue). Walsh's bird NEVER flew with the "Marine's Dream" nose art (she was primarily flown by Olander). Additionally, the nose art ITSELF is wrong (girl was in a blue skirt with red top and the text style and color as well).
I saw it both at Chino and at the reno air races and whether it was done as the original Marine's Dream was I don't know but the paint color and scheme was spot on as all the stenciling was. There was nothing missing from that plane. Now we may be speaking about two different aircraft.
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Was this the one you saw?
(http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/YankeeAirMuseum2006/Highlights/F4uLandingTom2006.jpg)
Only restored Corsair I know of using that artwork.
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Was this the one you saw?
(http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/YankeeAirMuseum2006/Highlights/F4uLandingTom2006.jpg)
Only restored Corsair I know of using that artwork.
No... That example is terrable. The guy bought it from the Chino Fighter Rebuilders. He also owns Glacier Girl and Rare Bear. The F4U I'm talking about is perfect.
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Birdcage?
And if he painted it as blue-gray over light-gray, did he do it with a high demarcation line (above the wing)? If he did that's wrong, as Marine's Dream actually had a very heavy, light-colored smoke stain along the port side above the wing that blends into the light gray underside.
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Birdcage?
Are there any flying examples of a birdcage corsair?
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Are there any flying examples of a birdcage corsair?
not that I know of