Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Cajunn on February 17, 2009, 04:54:57 AM
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I was considering the trackIR system and I would like to hear some pro's and con's about it before I drop money on it......
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Can't fly without it anymore.
Only real con is the price. But you may check out Freetrack first...
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What Lusche said - I cant fly without it. Con's are the cost
Pro's (IMO) are: Instinctual to use, you can make your profile more aggressive the more you use it, Improves your SA by removing the multi button pressing on the hat switch etc.
You may need to take some time to get used to it - but imo its worth the effort.
Wurzel
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The price is down to about $130.00, so considering I have spent way more then that in peddles and stick I think the price is reasonable.
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For TIR coupon, $30 - 35 off: http://dslyecxi.com/
It is more than worth the money in my opinion.
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I tried it. The concept and functionality is sound and reliable, but I ended up handing it off to my brother because I kept getting headaches from using it.
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completely awesome. I love it.
My only issue is I'm using the trackclip pro and having issues with stutters in the high 9-6 oclock positions. Has to do with the positioning of the clip, I'm sure.
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it is hard to fly with out it.
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Love it, takes some time to adjust your scaling to the way you like it but once you get use to it you wonder how you flew without it.
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My only issue is I'm using the trackclip pro and having issues with stutters in the high 9-6 oclock positions. Has to do with the positioning of the clip, I'm sure.
You might want to adjust your profile to be a bit more agressive. I only rotate my head a few degrees (the TrackClip pro is still pretty much pointed at the reciever) and have no trouble/stutter getting my view all the way around.
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You might want to adjust your profile to be a bit more agressive. I only rotate my head a few degrees (the TrackClip pro is still pretty much pointed at the reciever) and have no trouble/stutter getting my view all the way around.
Can you show me what your setup looks like? Sounds like a good idea.
**Edit**- what that means is, the settings and what they look like in the profile. Also, do you have your receiver mounted on the left side of your monitor as is suggested by the manual?
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I have a Track IR 3Pro with the vector expansion and the hat clip for sale and Ill toss in the TIR hat and original CD to boot.
I bought it but like others have said... I could not get used to it and have oinly used it a handfull of times.
PM me if you like
85 bucks includes shipping to the lower 48.
Track IR 3 Pro
(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:mADD_bkxgY1iQM:http://www.techwarelabs.com/reviews/peripherals/trackir_3_pro/images/unit.jpg)
Vector expansion clip and hat
(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:Y8yv1lLuxshZPM:http://www.simhq.com/_technology/images/technology_036a_001.jpg)
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Can you show me what your setup looks like? Sounds like a good idea.
**Edit**- what that means is, the settings and what they look like in the profile. Also, do you have your receiver mounted on the left side of your monitor as is suggested by the manual?
When I get home from work, I'll get something for you. And yes, the reciever is on the left-center of my monitor and the clip is over my left ear on my headset.
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I found TrackIR to be useful only when in level flight and looking for cons. In combat the movement of your head is disproportionate to the amount of view change and this can cause judgment errors with respect to 'you' versus 'them' in three dimensions. AH allows a mouse pan function and that presents the same scanning motion. I use TrackIR but not in combat because I found the view system in AH to be superior already.
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i have trackir 4.
its awsome! takes a little work to get the profile set up for you personally. alot of into the game to test out of the game to correct ect ect, but once its done and your happy with the tweaking youll think its the greatest thing since sliced bread or a tater shooter!
i stopped using the track clip pro, went back to using the hat. the clip is too touchy and very difficult to get the settings right for, the hat on the other hand gives you all the same movement but is much easier to set up and tweak your profile with.
just remember if you get the trackir 4 make sure the vector and trueview boxes are checked!!! and leave yourself a good sized dead band on all axises, this will help you recenter when your shooting.
good luck and happy hunting
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I'm not sure that I am a big fan of TIR to be honest.
I've had it for about a year, and I haven't really been playing much with it, but I get extremely disoriented with it. Using the hat views, you have a fixed frame of reference - you know where you are looking at all times, so you know where your plane is pointed. TrackIR is almost like having a manual padlock on all the time - you have no frame of reference to give you guidance on where your plane is going.
I've also noticed that I get really bad headaches after I've used it for a while, and the muscles in my neck / upper back get very fatigued.
It is fun, and it is possible to hit some snapshots that are very tough to hit with the hat views, but it definitely is not all positive (in my opinion).
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Seriously, no point of reference. The point of reference is your head. If you look forward, you look forward in the plane. Its really that simple.
The TrackIR is amazing. It really adds to the game. Use your hat sticks for something better.
I'm not sure that I am a big fan of TIR to be honest.
I've had it for about a year, and I haven't really been playing much with it, but I get extremely disoriented with it. Using the hat views, you have a fixed frame of reference - you know where you are looking at all times, so you know where your plane is pointed. TrackIR is almost like having a manual padlock on all the time - you have no frame of reference to give you guidance on where your plane is going.
I've also noticed that I get really bad headaches after I've used it for a while, and the muscles in my neck / upper back get very fatigued.
It is fun, and it is possible to hit some snapshots that are very tough to hit with the hat views, but it definitely is not all positive (in my opinion).
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XStrato -
I don't think you understand what I am saying. Using the hat views, I know exactly where I am heading vis a vis an enemy. You can keep track of relative motion because the con is sliding around a fixed viewpoint (be it your high 3, low 11, whatever).
With trackIR, I lose that ability. It may be a matter of having to practice more with it, I'm not sure. What I am sure of is I am nowhere near as competent with trackIR as I was with the hat. It is cool for the immersion factor, but my "flying" definitely suffered.
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It took a little getting used to myself, but now I'd rather fly with it than without it.
Anyways, here are a couple of screenshots for my setup. First one is looking straight ahead, second is me pointing my head to the left edge of my 24" widescreen monitor which is all I need to spin my game head all the way around to check 6. I'm also including a link to my squad site's download page if anyone so desires to download my TIR profile from my squad's website.
TIR Profile
http://ironhorsemen.spruz.com/?display=Downloads (http://ironhorsemen.spruz.com/?display=Downloads)
Centered View
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll239/ViperDriver/AcesHighII/TIRCentered.jpg)
Check 6 View Notice the two red arrows I drew to show how little I need to move
my "real" head (yellow line) and how much my "game" head moves in relation (red line).
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll239/ViperDriver/AcesHighII/TIRBack.jpg)
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thanks dude! Gonna work that out in the TA. Thanks a million!
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Just a note- it's working great now. Thanks, ImADot! :salute
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I don't think you understand what I am saying. Using the hat views, I know exactly where I am heading vis a vis an enemy. You can keep track of relative motion because the con is sliding around a fixed viewpoint (be it your high 3, low 11, whatever).
With trackIR, I lose that ability. It may be a matter of having to practice more with it, I'm not sure.
It may very well be that more practice would fix it for you, though of course there is no guarantee. Also how it's setup plays a major role. For me it took about a week to get fully used to it (but I play a lot), and about a month until I did the last minor tweaks on my profile.
But today, when using TIR I always know exactly where my head is pointing relative to my plane. Even when flying bubble canopy planes like the 51 where there is often no visually indication by seeing the cockpit frame. It's absolutely second nature. Very valuable in close dogfights, scissors etc. By tracking the enemy all the time I get a very good feel for changing angles due to my head movement. By using TIR it all feels more like flying in a 3-dimensional world, I am more "in" it. When having to use hat view again, it's suddenly all "flat" for me ;)
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It may very well be that more practice would fix it for you, though of course there is no guarantee. Also how it's setup plays a major role. For me it took about a week to get fully used to it (but I play a lot), and about a month until I did the last minor tweaks on my profile.
But today, when using TIR I always know exactly where my head is pointing relative to my plane. Even when flying bubble canopy planes like the 51 where there is often no visually indication by seeing the cockpit frame. It's absolutely second nature. Very valuable in close dogfights, scissors etc. By tracking the enemy all the time I get a very good feel for changing angles due to my head movement. By using TIR it all feels more like flying in a 3-dimensional world, I am more "in" it. When having to use hat view again, it's suddenly all "flat" for me ;)
I think Lusche summed it up nicely.
It really adds something to the game. Like he said, when you go back to a hat it's like you're in a 2D world as opposed to a 3D one.
Also, it's especially nice in the 109 for maneuvering your view around all of those cockpit bars.
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I actually have more trouble with the cockpit bars with trackIR than I did with the hat views. I'd just move the view to the clearest possible and save it, it seems with trackIR I am always staring right at a bar.
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Ok someone tell me this,
I have CH pedals (which I don't recommend because they had bugs in a big batch and refused to take them back) after tweaking it constnatly with software to get it working properly (yes I know what I'm doing), I just couldn't handle being 'stuck' in a position that I found uncomfortable.
SO with that said: is this product 'restrictive'? I move and fidget alot, is there a button you could hit for a 'quick center' or someting like that for firing mode or for resetting where you are sitting?
When I get into the heat of battle I like to lean forward and othertimes when I'm tired I fly sitting and slouching.
??
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Ok someone tell me this,
I have CH pedals (which I don't recommend because they had bugs in a big batch and refused to take them back) after tweaking it constnatly with software to get it working properly (yes I know what I'm doing), I just couldn't handle being 'stuck' in a position that I found uncomfortable.
SO with that said: is this product 'restrictive'? I move and fidget alot, is there a button you could hit for a 'quick center' or someting like that for firing mode or for resetting where you are sitting?
When I get into the heat of battle I like to lean forward and othertimes when I'm tired I fly sitting and slouching.
??
Try the "home" key that should do it
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It took a little getting used to myself, but now I'd rather fly with it than without it.
Anyways, here are a couple of screenshots for my setup. First one is looking straight ahead, second is me pointing my head to the left edge of my 24" widescreen monitor which is all I need to spin my game head all the way around to check 6. I'm also including a link to my squad site's download page if anyone so desires to download my TIR profile from my squad's website.
TIR Profile
http://ironhorsemen.spruz.com/?display=Downloads (http://ironhorsemen.spruz.com/?display=Downloads)
Centered View
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll239/ViperDriver/AcesHighII/TIRCentered.jpg)
Check 6 View Notice the two red arrows I drew to show how little I need to move
my "real" head (yellow line) and how much my "game" head moves in relation (red line).
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll239/ViperDriver/AcesHighII/TIRBack.jpg)
Thanks Everyone I think I'm going to give it a try...... and thanks for the starter profile.
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it's like you're in a 2D world as opposed to a 3D one.
Mmmm once you fly AH in 3D you'll hate 2D.
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darnit. Now if only woot would put that up on their woot off!
S
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SO with that said: is this product 'restrictive'? I move and fidget alot, is there a button you could hit for a 'quick center' or someting like that for firing mode or for resetting where you are sitting?
When I get into the heat of battle I like to lean forward and othertimes when I'm tired I fly sitting and slouching.
??
In my profile, I use the ~ key to recenter the TIR which effectively "puts you back in center of cockpit looking directly front". I use this key because it's easy to get to with the thumb of my thottle-hand. I move around a lot too, while playing, and re-center my TIR at least once every couple of minutes unless in the heat of battle and I'm rocking and swaying when T&B'ing.
As long as your head is actually looking straight when you center the TIR, you're fine. Because you are telling the TIR what "looking forward" should look like to the reciever - if your head is pointed a little left when you center the TIR, it thinks that is what center is. Then if you move your head to the right, which to you, is "centered", the TIR thinks you're looking right.
Also, the POV hat buttons still work, so I hold the "look forward" hat button to semi-lock the TIR in forward view. I can still move my head around, but it the TIR input has now been effectively "dulled down" for those times when I need more precision for fine-tuning my aim. Works especially well when zoomed in for a long-range shot.
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In my profile, I use the ~ key to recenter the TIR which effectively "puts you back in center of cockpit looking directly front". I use this key because it's easy to get to with the thumb of my thottle-hand. I move around a lot too, while playing, and re-center my TIR at least once every couple of minutes unless in the heat of battle and I'm rocking and swaying when T&B'ing.
As long as your head is actually looking straight when you center the TIR, you're fine. Because you are telling the TIR what "looking forward" should look like to the reciever - if your head is pointed a little left when you center the TIR, it thinks that is what center is. Then if you move your head to the right, which to you, is "centered", the TIR thinks you're looking right.
Also, the POV hat buttons still work, so I hold the "look forward" hat button to semi-lock the TIR in forward view. I can still move my head around, but it the TIR input has now been effectively "dulled down" for those times when I need more precision for fine-tuning my aim. Works especially well when zoomed in for a long-range shot.
That's EXACTLY what I wanted to know! :rock :salute
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I actually have more trouble with the cockpit bars with trackIR than I did with the hat views. I'd just move the view to the clearest possible and save it, it seems with trackIR I am always staring right at a bar.
Dumb question: What TIR you have? Sounds a bit like an older one without 6DOF...
Being easily able to look around the 109's cockpit bars is what made TIR most valuable to me.
EDIT: I just made a short film (2mins) , attacking offline drones in a 109G-14. You can see my head constantly moving all around, and you may also note I don't use any hat/key views even when shooting.
http://www.mediafire.com/?mz4ymxzlmgx
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I believe Urchin is referring to the same problem I have with it requiring too much movement for a game that I normally feel is relaxing but worse the head movement is like I said disproportionate with the amount of view change so you cant intuitively know in which quadrant you are actually looking. That typically leads to a small degree of disorientation which results in your moving your aircraft in a direction contrary to your intentions. In FSX for instance I dont have a problem like this because I am not turning with a manuvering opponent but turning relative to the ground or in the case of aerobatics I have a procedure outlined and simply proceed through it. While making adjustments is possible to me it feels like cross-wiring and I would rather use TIR for bandit scanning and otherwise use the coolie hat.
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Dumb question: What TIR you have? Sounds a bit like an older one without 6DOF...
Being easily able to look around the 109's cockpit bars is what made TIR most valuable to me.
EDIT: I just made a short film (2mins) , attacking offline drones in a 109G-14. You can see my head constantly moving all around, and you may also note I don't use any hat/key views even when shooting.
http://www.mediafire.com/?mz4ymxzlmgx
I can see where your SA is improved, there is no way you can follow a boggy that smoothly with the hat/keys or at least I can't and it looks as if it eliminates the constant multi tasking with the hats to get the views where you need them.
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I believe Urchin is referring to the same problem I have with it requiring too much movement for a game that I normally feel is relaxing but worse the head movement is like I said disproportionate with the amount of view change so you cant intuitively know in which quadrant you are actually looking. That typically leads to a small degree of disorientation which results in your moving your aircraft in a direction contrary to your intentions. In FSX for instance I dont have a problem like this because I am not turning with a manuvering opponent but turning relative to the ground or in the case of aerobatics I have a procedure outlined and simply proceed through it. While making adjustments is possible to me it feels like cross-wiring and I would rather use TIR for bandit scanning and otherwise use the coolie hat.
Out of curiosity, how big is your monitor and (if you don't mind me asking) what is your age?
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Dumb question: What TIR you have? Sounds a bit like an older one without 6DOF...
Being easily able to look around the 109's cockpit bars is what made TIR most valuable to me.
EDIT: I just made a short film (2mins) , attacking offline drones in a 109G-14. You can see my head constantly moving all around, and you may also note I don't use any hat/key views even when shooting.
http://www.mediafire.com/?mz4ymxzlmgx
If you wouldn't mind posting your trackIR settings (I think there is a file or something) I'd appreciate it.
I have the 6DOF, but I turned off the roll axis because I didn't like using it. I haven't really given it another try. I can track drones ok, I have trouble with keeping track of a manuevering opponent when both of us are going - for instance in a rolling scissors or something along those lines. It is like the 3d view in my head is now off from "reality" when I use TIR. I did use the hat views for 6 years before I ever tried TIR though, and I don't really put much time in nowadays to practice, so it may just be a practice issue.
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Out of curiosity, how big is your monitor and (if you don't mind me asking) what is your age?
I'm 31, with a 22" monitor.
To put it in perspective... I started playing AH at age 23 (holy @#$@ lol).
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My first idea was that perhaps on a smaller monitor the TrackIR loses some of it's effect and is difficult to use. As I have a 22" monitor as well that was obviously wrong.
My second hypothesis is that it may be easier for someone who is younger to use TrackIR more intuitively (in my own case, as soon as I got all of the settings right, before I even scaled everything how I now like it, I immediately caught on to TrackIR and found it extremely natural- I'm 15).
I'd imagine that for someone who has been exposed to virtual 3D environments from an earlier age, it may be easier to detach yourself not only from your surroundings but from your own physical movements and the expected result of those, becoming more immersed in the '3D' environment, and easier to take to equipment like TIR.
However with your age I think my second idea may be bunk as well :D
It's probably just a personal thing with no real cause.
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My second hypothesis is that it may be easier for someone who is younger to use TrackIR more intuitively (in my own case, as soon as I got all of the settings right, before I even scaled everything how I now like it, I immediately caught on to TrackIR and found it extremely natural- I'm 15).
I'd imagine that for someone who has been exposed to virtual 3D environments from an earlier age, it may be easier to detach yourself not only from your surroundings but from your own physical movements and the expected result of those, becoming more immersed in the '3D' environment, and easier to take to equipment like TIR.
However with your age I think my second idea may be bunk as well :D
It's probably just a personal thing with no real cause.
HOLLY POOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Motherland you are only 15?????????????????
wow to have read your postings in other threads i never would have guessed it, you are very well spoken generally more respectful than others and intelligent>
if there are more like you at your age out there in the world and you are not just some kind of mutant that will be hunted down and destroyed by the moronic manikin masses that seem to be the prodominant strain of todays youth, well then maybe there is a hope for tomorrow!
<SALUTE> to you for being the person you are! and good luck in all of your endeavors through life!
but i do believe that your second hypo does hold more water than you think. beginning in your mid twenties your body starts its inevitable decline. so being in his thirties his eyes and the muscles in his neck and upper back have already begun to stiffen and decline. now he is tasking them in new ways, they will take time to rebuild the muscles and the mental responses to use them in a coordinated manner to gain the effects sought. it will take practice, like any other new skill for him to become really proficient with it.
he has been playing a long time, but in a 2d environment. he has grown into the pattern of looking at things in one manner and now must relearn them in another. it will take time for him to first forget what he thinks he knows and then to relearn everything from a new perspective. for younger people, such as a teenager this is a faster and more proficient transition, than it is for someone who is older and more set in their ways. the biggest hurdle will be the mental one, once that one can be retrained the physical transition is nominal.
dont be so quick to cast aside your hypo's, your a more intelligent person than i think you are willing to give yourself credit for. dont sell yourself short because you are humbled by your age in the eyes of others.
<SALUTE>
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I'm 44 and have only been playing AH2 since last March - only had TIR since Nov. :P
What's that say about your "old guy" hypothesis? :D
I'm special...I know this because my mommy keeps telling me that. :noid
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My second hypothesis is that it may be easier for someone who is younger to use TrackIR more intuitively (in my own case, as soon as I got all of the settings right, before I even scaled everything how I now like it, I immediately caught on to TrackIR and found it extremely natural- I'm 15).
I'd imagine that for someone who has been exposed to virtual 3D environments from an earlier age, it may be easier to detach yourself not only from your surroundings but from your own physical movements and the expected result of those, becoming more immersed in the '3D' environment, and easier to take to equipment like TIR.
The degree with which people can immerse in environments is extremely diverse. I know people who play games/sims a lot but cannot handle true 3D immersion (which trackir is not btw!), they get nauseous, motion sickness etc (including young tweaker gamer types).
p.s. 3D environments in games have been around for longer than you think, I was playing off the shelf 3D games on an off the shelf VR headset before you were even born ;)
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Thanks Flot :D
p.s. 3D environments in games have been around for longer than you think, I was playing off the shelf 3D games on an off the shelf VR headset before you were even born ;)
I know they've been around for a while, which is why I started to doubt my theory when Urchin said he was only 31. If he said the was 40 or 50, growing up in the 60's or 70's, on the other hand, I would have thought more of it- but ImADot doesn't have any problem with it, and is older, leading me to believe it's just a personal thing completely independent of age.
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I'm 44 and have only been playing AH2 since last March - only had TIR since Nov. :P
What's that say about your "old guy" hypothesis? :D
I'm special...I know this because my mommy keeps telling me that. :noid
it says that you had not played long enough to develop severe difficulties making the transition.
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Yeah it's more of a controller/input issue, like going from a twisty stick to pedals.
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Yeah it's more of a controller/input issue, like going from a twisty stick to pedals.
absolutely!
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it says that you had not played long enough to develop severe difficulties making the transition.
Ah, sorry. I've been playing video games at home since the mid 80's when the Amiga came out. Played some pretty strange games, and some pretty cool ones. I've done MS Flight Sim II, Falcon 2.0 (or was that 1.0), etc. since the beginning. When I "grew up", a few years ago, I started flying Falcon 4.0 on an Intel machine (PC-compatible-type thingy).
So, I've been gaming for 20 some-odd years...not sure to which difficulties you are referring. Meh, no biggie. This thread really has taken a bit of a detour as of late...
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Out of curiosity, how big is your monitor and (if you don't mind me asking) what is your age?
I am in my 50s and my monitor is a 26" but Im not talking about physical disorientation I am talking about mentally linking where you are looking with where you are physically looking. Being able to mentally link a coolie hat position with respect to your cockpit position in 3D space is quite a bit different then using TrackIR and 'knowing' you are looking 135 degrees right and 45 degrees up when you really move your head just 30 degrees right and 25 degrees up especially when your bandit transitions across your canopy from right to left and your nose is down into gravity. Of course anyone can learn where they make mistakes and 'reprogram' their use of this device or that one but the comfort level with coolie hats for me is much higher then with TIR. I believe TIR is absolutely essential for FSX and it really boosts immersion but in AH its different (for me).
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Being able to mentally link a coolie hat position with respect to your cockpit position in 3D space is quite a bit different then using TrackIR and 'knowing' you are looking 135 degrees right and 45 degrees up when you really move your head just 30 degrees right and 25 degrees up
But it is not 1:1 tracking nor are you keeping your eyes ahead, so you are still translating the perceived view as you would with a hat switch. In fact I'd go as far to say keeping your eyes on the monitor while you turn your head lessons the immersion quite a bit.
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offtopic
Vulcan, meant to ask you about that, with your vr headset, do you have to move as you would in real life, ie, look behind to look behind kinda deal?
/offtopic
Wurzel
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Yeah, you can scale it to whatever you want up to 1:1.
However I scale mine about about 180:120. So looking left or right 120 degrees gives you a six view, cos in real life thats how far u turn your head then let your eyes track the last 30 or 40 degrees. Vertically I track 1:1.
I need to do a new vid showing AH with an embeded external view to show how it tracks sometime. I use the rocker on my X45 (the axis on the throttle that some x45 users use as rudder) for left/right lean in AH.
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Cool, thanks - for some reason got curious - I'd like to see whatever video you come up with to demonstrate.
<S>
Wurzel
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But it is not 1:1 tracking nor are you keeping your eyes ahead, so you are still translating the perceived view as you would with a hat switch. In fact I'd go as far to say keeping your eyes on the monitor while you turn your head lessons the immersion quite a bit.
Thank you for supporting my position. :D
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In reference to the monitor size, I use a 26", is bigger better for TIR or does size have any baring on the operation of the TIR system.
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Size of monitor is irrelevant to the operation of TIR. The only thing a big monitor does is allow you to still be looking at the monitor as you move your head enough to the side to get your game head turned around. Those with smaller monitors either have to have a real aggresive profile (so they don't have to move their head around too much) or they will be pointing their head far outside their monitor and peeking out of the corners of their eyes to see the display.
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Hi
I got yesterday my Trackir4:Pro :D
After ~10 years view-hat using, this is feeling pretty funky at first :rolleyes:
BTW
How I can use TIR for key mapping/emulation ? I would like to use it with R6-Raven Shiled and OFP1 games.
Thanks
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Size of monitor is irrelevant to the operation of TIR. The only thing a big monitor does is allow you to still be looking at the monitor as you move your head enough to the side to get your game head turned around. Those with smaller monitors either have to have a real aggresive profile (so they don't have to move their head around too much) or they will be pointing their head far outside their monitor and peeking out of the corners of their eyes to see the display.
Thats only true to a certain extent because if you have a monitor that doesnt allow the TIR pickup to be close to centered on your browline it is very easy to move outside of the functional area. The only solution then is to move the monitor further from you. Your monitor size comparison doesnt make sense either since you can scale with respect to relative motion for either one.