Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Saxman on March 07, 2009, 10:25:55 PM
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Seeing all the threads and disparaging remarks about the state of the game today got me thinking: was there REALLY such a thing as "The Good Ol' Days?"
I'll admit I haven't been around Aces High II as long as some, and I missed AH1. To be honest, I haven't noticed much of a difference between today and when I started. N1K2s, Typhoons and C-Hogs still go right for the HO. Ponies sit at 20k and dive to the deck the instant they get a whiff of a co-alt conn. Vulching, ganging, hordeing. None of that's changed in the 3-4 years I've been here.
I WAS, however, around for Air Warrior for Windows. And y'know what? Except for the lack of HOs due to the game mechanics (the hit bubble didn't register them) everything that's happening in today's game was happening then. Vulching, ganging, hordeing, picking, alt-monkey 51s diving to the deck rather than fight an even fight, etc.
The game hasn't changed.
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Disagree
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agree.
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The game isn't precise enough a way to put it. 3-4 years isn't enough to appreciate what the "old" guys refer to. The game itself hasn't really changed. We still have the same general gameplay mechanics: roll a plane and go shoot the red guys and/or their infrastructure. But mostly the red guys.
The player population has definitely changed, though. That's a major effect on what you effectively get for gameplay in the main arenas. Scenarios are better than ever. CT unfortunately never made it, H2H disappeared, which constricts the wide variety of player interests (from hardcore historical to hardcore arcade dogfighting) into just the MAs and DA. Which is for the worse. Official H2H will probably lighten a good deal of the dweeb pressure in most arenas, for those that want non-stop free FFA/team dogfighting.
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May depend on the spend of tiem you are looking back. I can't really comment on how it was 10 years ago, i only did one short "2week" stint back in 2000.
I joined AH almost 4 years ago, 2005. In my opinion, there had been some subtle changes but no major one. Back in that days, immedeately told by "vets" how much this game has declined and is now really going downhill. I still read about that, but now by players that did join this game 2 years after me :lol
When I joined, there was that giant bish horde and everybody complained on the BBS about seeing only Spit 16 and La 7. Soon there after the LCA was started in rookland and started to flatten bases in mega-horde missions. That was 4 years ago.
And in many complains I don't even see rose-colored glasses but either amnesia or (quite likely) hypocrisy.
I could name (but of course won't do ;)) a good number of players that joined roughly around the same time. We camped spawns together and congratulated each other about gettin 50+ kills in a Tiger that way. Every combat was exciting, and every kill was fantastic, no matter if he came by vulch, HO or whatever. And today? Now that those player have "seen the light", I do see them complain about how the game has degraded, how nobody fights anymore, how lame spawncampers are.
Some of them seem to have quit the game, because it got boring for them. But they don't relized they had simply outgrown the game, they didn't realize their own gamplay and expectations on this game had changed. They didn't realize that what once seemed to be an exciting fight to them now looks like a weak series of HO's. So they say: Everything has changed.
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This echoes a post I made not that long ago.
In my opinion, players change more than anything else... though I'm sympathetic to the position that ACM knowledge is worse on average than it was many years ago.
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(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/presto731/beatdeadhorseve6.gif)
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Huge difference between 99-2000 and now...
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May depend on the spend of tiem you are looking back. I can't really comment on how it was 10 years ago, i only did one short "2week" stint back in 2000.
I joined AH almost 4 years ago, 2005. In my opinion, there had been some subtle changes but no major one. Back in that days, immedeately told by "vets" how much this game has declined and is now really going downhill. I still read about that, but now by players that did join this game 2 years after me :lol
When I joined, there was that giant bish horde and everybody complained on the BBS about seeing only Spit 16 and La 7. Soon there after the LCA was started in rookland and started to flatten bases in mega-horde missions. That was 4 years ago.
And in many complains I don't even see rose-colored glasses but either amnesia or (quite likely) hypocrisy.
I could name (but of course won't do ;)) a good number of players that joined roughly around the same time. We camped spawns together and congratulated each other about gettin 50+ kills in a Tiger that way. Every combat was exciting, and every kill was fantastic, no matter if he came by vulch, HO or whatever. And today? Now that those player have "seen the light", I do see them complain about how the game has degraded, how nobody fights anymore, how lame spawncampers are.
Some of them seem to have quit the game, because it got boring for them. But they don't relized they had simply outgrown the game, they didn't realize their own gamplay and expectations on this game had changed. They didn't realize that what once seemed to be an exciting fight to them now looks like a weak series of HO's. So they say: Everything has changed.
Well said :aok
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You tease...I thought we were gonna have a John Conlee thread :(
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Honestly I tried Aces High I and thought it was a public domain game. (common phrase back then).
Pretty stale compared to what else was out there. At the time, I was more into RTS's.
They just don't make games and movies anymore, just garbage.
Aces High 2 was kinda vanilla when I first logged in, but after years of ww2online I never looked back (well not much).
I finally found a game that was exciting and seemingly 'proper'.
It was warned that after the initial YAY wore of I would be complaining about many things, I thought NAW. Well I guess they were right! :)
It's STILL one of the best games out there. Just have to take your first impressions of graphics away and enjoy the game for what it is. A pseudo-ww2 figher sim that is LOADS of fun or LOADS of frustration lol.
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I think there used to be a higher ratio of purists/gamers then there is now and thats what everyone is referring to. For the record I am a purist and just cannot bring myself to be anything else.
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Huge difference between 99-2000 and now...
8 - 9 years. Many things have changed in that time. My kids turned into adults. I am driving different vehicles. I will be retiring this year. The economy went to crap. I have had 4 different computers. I still have the same wife and house though. :)
The list goes on and on and on. So why is it so unexpected that the game has changed? Does anyone really expect that it would remain the same year after year? Maybe the changes are good, maybe they are bad, I guess that is in ones perspective, but there is no doubt that there always will be change with time.
:salute
Fred is voicing his opinion again.
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Seeing all the threads and disparaging remarks about the state of the game today got me thinking: was there REALLY such a thing as "The Good Ol' Days?"
I'll admit I haven't been around Aces High II as long as some, and I missed AH1. To be honest, I haven't noticed much of a difference between today and when I started. N1K2s, Typhoons and C-Hogs still go right for the HO. Ponies sit at 20k and dive to the deck the instant they get a whiff of a co-alt conn. Vulching, ganging, hordeing. None of that's changed in the 3-4 years I've been here.
I WAS, however, around for Air Warrior for Windows. And y'know what? Except for the lack of HOs due to the game mechanics (the hit bubble didn't register them) everything that's happening in today's game was happening then. Vulching, ganging, hordeing, picking, alt-monkey 51s diving to the deck rather than fight an even fight, etc.
The game hasn't changed.
I joined back in the March-April time-frame of 2001. I don't doubt that I have changed as a person - when I started playing I was 23 with a huge chip on my shoulder and a bad anger problem. Now I'm 31, married with a kid on the way, great job, but more important I'm happy.
That said, the game has changed, and it isn't for the better. When I started playing, the focus of the game was on air combat. Sometime around the 2003-2004 time-frame the focus of the game moved from air combat to resetting the map - and it hasn't looked back. When I started playing, you could find two fields that were a sector or so apart and if you took off and flew to the enemy field at some point you would be met by an enemy. Again, that changed several years back - one of the most disgusting memories I have of this game is me flying to an enemy field looking for a fight, orbiting for a while with nothing, de-acking the field and LANDING ON IT, and sitting in front of the tower for 5 minutes. Nobody ever rolled.
That is more typical of game-play today.
I remember a quote from Hitech saying the base capture / map reset mechanism was an enabler for air combat. That is no longer the case. The base taking is no longer a means to an end, it is the end.
Vulching, ganging, picking? Yes, those all happened. Hell, I don't doubt that there were even some conga lines 'back in the day'. But even though I would say that air combat "purists" were always a minority in the game, that point of view is pretty much extinct in AH today.
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Urchin pretty much nailed it. Back in the day you could fly toward an enemy field and someone would up to fight you. Now if there's already someone up at that field they land and go elsewhere so they don't have to fight you or they call in their squaddies/countrymen so they can have a defensive hoard.
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Pineapples!
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Now if there's already someone up at that field they land and go elsewhere so they don't have to fight you or they call in their squaddies/countrymen so they can have a defensive hoard.
I asked if someone would roll off this base on ch200. Was gonna totally bleed E after the merge, for a nice fair fight. Instead he runs from a 1:1 fight to.... (http://dasmuppets.com/public/moot/OneWeekStuff/film79_wingsoftorpor_0000.ahf)
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I asked if someone would roll off this base on ch200. Was gonna totally bleed E after the merge, for a nice fair fight. Instead he runs from a 1:1 fight to.... (http://dasmuppets.com/public/moot/OneWeekStuff/film79_wingsoftorpor_0000.ahf)
thats lame
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I asked if someone would roll off this base on ch200. Was gonna totally bleed E after the merge, for a nice fair fight. Instead he runs from a 1:1 fight to.... (http://dasmuppets.com/public/moot/OneWeekStuff/film79_wingsoftorpor_0000.ahf)
I don't know what sort of conversation you guys had on 200, but from his perspective you attacked when he was barely wheels up, maybe?
The guy who's lame in that film is the one in the flak.
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No conversation, just me asking for a fight. Flak guy upped first. Yak was already up when i turned to it, and I came in parallel.. turned to without scrubbing speed when instinct told me he was about to run.. didnt ho or rope in case i read it wrong, kept full power when he ran.
Anyway... this is the typical stuff nowadays, i could find dozen more films as examples. This didnt happen back then. Nor bomb & bail at a base thats already nearly flat & capped. etc etc
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Oh, in the film it looks like he had just taken off. ;)
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He did. I was above the field asking for a fight. I didn't dive on him as soon as he was out of the ack. I didn't HO, he didn't even try to fight, just ran to the field ack and WW. Remove the speed and alt advantage I had and you have a perfect picture of what I'm talking about. I don't know about good old days but this crap is rampant nowadays.
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He did. I was above the field asking for a fight. I didn't dive on him as soon as he was out of the ack. I didn't HO, he didn't even try to fight, just ran to the field ack and WW. Remove the speed and alt advantage I had and you have a perfect picture of what I'm talking about. I don't know about good old days but this crap is rampant nowadays.
:huh :confused: :rolleyes: :huh :( :o :confused: :uhoh :eek: :huh
I would agree for opposite reasons that "this crap is rampant nowadays" :lol :rofl :lol
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I started flying in AW in 96, switched to Aces High in "tour 21" and have been here ever since. I have been flying for over 20 years....and still suck btw :D NEVER took a break. This game and AW both had the same challenges ...find the enemy, and shoot him down before he does the same to you.
Yes the game has changed, we have gotten more toys to play with, more options on how to play, but the base of the game always was combat. Out think the enemy, out plan the enemy, out last the enemy, out FIGHT the enemy. But the biggest change has been the change in the type of PLAYER we have.
I too have gone through change, I have 2 sons that I've watch grow into manhood. One has graduated from college, the other has one more year. I think I've done a good job raising my kids. Neither one does drugs, nor do they drink even... tho the computer geek was hooked on Coke-a-cola for a while :D but I've seen the "new age" attitude in both of them. They want it NOW! I have seen them start new games on game consoles as well as computer games and not bother even looking at the "manuals". More often than not it was a quick jump out to "GamesFAQ" then start playing.
In the "old days" most of us were there to play a fighters game, some a "war" game. Everyone started out sucking, but with help from the community, you learned to get better. You learned that a fighter sweep 5 minutes in front of your buffs cleared the way to a field, you learned to turn and lead your target to gain angles on him, but the important thing here is everyone wanted to learn to get better. Today most people don't want to bother to learn how to do it, they just want to get it done NOW.
Too many shortcuts have taken away the skills. There are always ways to "game the game", but to those of us playing the game just for the thrill and fun of playing the game, there is no short cuts to use. If you play Monopoly, you can slip that extra 500 out of the bank and it could help you "win the game" but did you really "best" the other player? If you dive in on me and we go round and round all the way to the deck taking pieces off each other the whole way down and just as I'm about to blast you out of the sky as you flutter out of "E" hanging in front of my guns 2 of your buddies cherry pick me and you get the kill. Did you really best me?
If you are part of 20 guys attacking a base and you vulch the only 3 guys upping to defend did you really "win"? To us "old guys" all you did was horde a base and vulch a few kills... dweebery. Let those guys up, FIGHT for the base! In the old days goons almost never landed to drop troops, you know why? because there was more fighting then, always a ton of fighters up.... it was the birth of many a furball! Goons came in at 5-6k and when they got the "all down" they would dive in and pull up over the town zooming strait up and flopping over at the top dropping the troops in an arc over the base. This would land them in a clump more than a line and cut down on the time they were running.
You know why they don't do it that way any more? Because the majority of players today suck! They can't keep a fight low, or pinned down at the field. No strategy is used, just brute force. I don't have a problem with the enemy taking down the FH, then a town, but you have better had your buffs come in at 12-15k, of course that means a high cap to watch for the late comers coming to defend the field from other bases, planning intercept courses and areas most likely to be used for their flight paths..... oooooo my brain hurts!!! You can hear the cries now ! LOL!!
Yes the game has changed, and for the better if you ask me. Have I changed, I hope for the better too :D Has the player base changed, you bet, and unfortunately I think bad apples are leading the new players to the bottom of the barrel. The new player has to learn that there is so much more to this game than just "winning" !
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In AH1, the lonely, singular map was small and field capture attempts could seem like epic battles lasting all night. There were NOE missions, but they just seemed to propogate another fight. The war was doing what it was supposed to do - create battlefields. With hundreds of people on a single small map, you couldn't hide in the air; you had to fight. There weren't so many fields per side, so losing three of four fields was a big deal. Any mass attack seemed to generate a mass defense.
Now, with large maps, a country can lose 10 fields and never blink because they still have a hundred more fields to lose until it means something. The large maps with mega squads (or gangs might be a better word than squads) may be promoting all these NOE 110 missions with little defense. I can understand why someone would not want to up against 20 planes, knowing that they'll not get many others to help defend against the horde because they'll just get killed over and over. Three against twenty isn't something many players can handle for very long.
I think that is why some older players get frustrated and think the good old days were better. You can be timid and hide now. You can sneak around the map now, searching for somewhere to fly unmolested by an opponent. You couldn't do that in the past. There weren't that many places to run to.
I don't know for sure if the old days being better is an illusion or not. I'm inclined to think they were. One thing I am pretty sure about is that the old days always stay gone forever, and you have to adapt or make your own new days.
I have no data to back this up, but I think more people came to the game with a fascination for aviation and many of todays players are gamers. I don't think that's bad, it's just that I think I know the minds of the aviation types better than the minds of gamers. I'm not a gamer.
Added: I cannot believe that Fugitive and I said the exact same ratio of 3 vs. 20... :noid
Some of us older guys see red dots and bogies and say, "Yes!" Other players say, "Oh no!"
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It will always come down to getting out of the game what you put into it.
I gave up expecting things from other players many years ago. If I fly assuming the guy pointing at me is going to go for the HO, I'm not surprised if he does, and will avoid setting one up for him. If I assume I won't get a "fair" 1v1 fight, I fight expecting to get jumped and am not disappointed when it happens. I try very hard to put myself in situations that when I am actually surprised, it's because the silly stuff didn't happen.
The game itself, whether evolving from a very rough early Air Warrior to the now more evolved Aces High II really hasn't changed much at all if you think about it. Your still a bunch of people sitting in your homes manipulating a small screen, the graphics have improved as they relate to what they used to be, but remember when AW went 3d? That was a "stunning" improvement but poor in today's standards. There are games with far superior graphics, like MS FS X with the quality ramped up to full. You can't play them with 300 people in a room though, so compromises in quality for playability must occur. Still, between the two extremes, the basic game is the same. Take off, fly, die, rinse, repeat. The only variable is your direct participation and expectations.
The players will always make the difference, and not in the way you would imagine. There has been and always will be dweebs, noobs, squeakers and the like. You all were, you just didn't have the experience to know it was you, and don't really want to remember that you acted at one point in your gaming career as a clueless dolt. You have more experience now, and your perception of the game has changed. The game hasn't. The game hasn't changed since games were played with rolling dice. The basic playability is the same.
If you launch in the main arenas, where there is a designed free for all setup, you simply have to accept the fact that someone will do something you don't agree with. Get over it. I see more players complain about things they have no control over, then don't attend the special events where they have complete control. Nothing new, it's always been that way. Take this exact same conversation and change the format from Air Warrior on Genie to when they went to AOL. Darn near verbatim, same thoughts on the good old days compared to now. Always going downhill, always changing, but more people log in now than ever. The game hasn't changed, perception of it has, and it is inevitable, as your experiences change. It is impossible to look at the same thing twice and see it without changes, as your experience has changed. Knowing that, I go back to the original comment. You will only get out of the game, regardless of the game, exactly what you put into it.
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Agrees with Fugitive, Rolex, and Roc.
Game hasn't really changed, the community has, and how people fly has had huge changes.
The worst of it is that its "OUR" fault. We have failed to educate, show a good example and ostracize those who don't learn.
Anytime your giving people <S> for 2 kills in a uber plane your part of the problem.
Anytime your flying in a horde, your part of the problem.
Anytime you do get a good fight and fail to <S> your opponent, win, lose or draw your part of the problem.
Anytime you get on ch 200 and berate your opponent for _ _ _ _ _ when you lost because of a mistake you made, you sir are part of the problem.
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Ghosth, Fugitive and Rolex...I can understand your point of view but IMHO human nature is human nature...
In other words...in an arena of 400-500 is 20 pilots (less then a squad) the new definition of a horde??? And the fact the opposing country can only launch 3 planes in response to one of my personal favorite things to see on country ch "NOE base 154!!! scramble!" Is that really the fault of the 20 ppilots or the folks who don't want to ditch/bail and help out???
The biggest difference for me between AH2 and AW is numbers in the arena and size of the maps...
When max numbers were 100 in an arena a "horde" or "gang" was 3-5 v 1. statistically is that far different from 20 v 3? No, the difference is the multiplier. Also bases were easier to capture almost single handedly...now you must have a force that drop town/acks/vh and hold position to capture...whose "fault" is that? It sounds like purposeful design.
In AW and AH1 the maps were fairly small...limited front bases...afternoon/evening noe's were about impossible...now with multi front base maps why wouldnt anyone expect that different strategies for attack and different values placed upon defense would develop??? Is it fair to blame the player for this??? They are directly reacting to developer design.
One is rewarded for base captures with perks...etc etc.
So am I somehow upset with Hitech et al for the changes?...heck no! :aok
If the game had never evolved from AW days both strategywise and game improvements...I know some of the purists would still be here...but other folks would have left for greener pastures. Personally I love the diversity of the game...some nights I just want to GV...other nights furball/defend...other nights taking bases seems fun. Most of all I think all of us just want to have fun. So far so good :aok
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Seeing all the threads and disparaging remarks about the state of the game today got me thinking: was there REALLY such a thing as "The Good Ol' Days?"
I'll admit I haven't been around Aces High II as long as some, and I missed AH1. To be honest, I haven't noticed much of a difference between today and when I started. N1K2s, Typhoons and C-Hogs still go right for the HO. Ponies sit at 20k and dive to the deck the instant they get a whiff of a co-alt conn. Vulching, ganging, hordeing. None of that's changed in the 3-4 years I've been here.
I WAS, however, around for Air Warrior for Windows. And y'know what? Except for the lack of HOs due to the game mechanics (the hit bubble didn't register them) everything that's happening in today's game was happening then. Vulching, ganging, hordeing, picking, alt-monkey 51s diving to the deck rather than fight an even fight, etc.
The game hasn't changed.
Eggackly
I hear ALLL of the whines that existed in both game,.... in both games, to the same degree with all the same venom.
I also look at this occurs sometimes because some people are just professional whiners. They live to find something to complain about.
OTOH we have another set of people who talk about the same rehashed stuff so much all it does is remind others to whine about the same rehashed stuff yet again 1 week later. If some stop talking about it so much people wouldn't notice so much. It's like taking a bad thing and making it more horrific. Overt-stated.
Again, I don't see HTC interacting with the snivels so most likely it's not going to go any further if you snivel about it every day then once a month. In this area I am not seeing much input from HTC,.. almost at all. WHo are you whining to? I mean they built a great game, generally great people, and maybe they read more then I notice,.. but I'm seeing it falling out of touch with the player base. Maybe it's just me I dunno. they seem great at everything else. <shrug> On one else can do anything about SOME things, the rest is just more of the same I've seen in 10-12 years, or more.
Here's my solution to some of this, SLIGHT sarcasm of course.
Does your game work? Yes? Then don't sweat the small stuff.
There should be a penality for constantly repeating already over-winded whines. <snork!>
BTW I'm also tired if P-51 whines. <GGGG>
Dr. Animl (who was born with a nail in his brain)
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Animal hit what I was saying right on the head: ALL the same whines in the game today, are the same one I heard 10 years ago in AW4W. It's a misguided notion that the people in the game have changed. People are PEOPLE. They're going to naturally gravitate towards the easy thing. They're naturally going to jump in the uberplanes, HO, vulch and pick because it's EASY. It happens here, it happened in AW.
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I asked if someone would roll off this base on ch200. Was gonna totally bleed E after the merge, for a nice fair fight. Instead he runs from a 1:1 fight to.... (http://dasmuppets.com/public/moot/OneWeekStuff/film79_wingsoftorpor_0000.ahf)
Tired of this ran from a good fight whine. There are many variables as to why a plane is leaving a flight, including chicken for losing perks (which I recall you aiming for last night in a 38). There is also bingo fuel or bingo ammo involved. Would you suggest that someone bingo should stay just to be an unarmed target just for you? Lotta people call chicken without knowing why the plane left,... reckless assumption IMO. 10 Yard penalty for over preached whine,... :)
Isn't that why some of the muppets the other night stopped me from following a 38 (prolly Gizz) out of the flight so he could run home land his perks? That happened on 2 occasions with different planes in the same fight,.. a fight that Muppets promoted on 200. I mean you guys block off people going after your guy who is bingo and heading home to land perks,...yet can't seem to understand why others leave a fight, who doesn't have an escort home to land his perks. <shrug> You seem like a good guy to me Moot, but let the Muppets get off the "run from a fight whine", it's a little hypocritical.
SkyRock is the biggest whiner of that group for people """""" running""""" . Yet I see you guys escort AC out of the fight so they can run home to land perks.
What makes the Muppets a good squad is they rarely seem to fight alone. Which is how a squad should operate...but to make up flames because someone else isn't escorted out of a fight by their wingmen is welll... you know.... kinda stupit. :)
I'm ot trying to insult, I'm just speaking like I see it. Some other people in the game can't EVER enter a thread about ANYTHING without ignoring the thread title and snivel about someone """""""runnnnnnnning"""""" for the god of all pilots.
Fir god sakes people, get a grip. !!!! <runs like hell>
Animl
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:huh :confused: :rolleyes: :huh :( :o :confused: :uhoh :eek: :huh
I would agree for opposite reasons that "this crap is rampant nowadays" :lol :rofl :lol
Maybe try to articulate something cogent instead of randoml emoticons?
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Tired of this ran from a good fight whine.
It's not a whine. It's a factual statement of exactly what the arena is too full of. That's it, no whine no complaint or anything. I just stand there in front of the screen and watch some guys just run... for miles and miles, from nothing but a 1:1. Or run to 5:1 odds, and then barely fight. That's not a freakin whine, it's the plain damn freakin truth of the matter. But then, this isn't about factual argument, it's about Tired of ...
Your pet peeve.
There are many variables as to why a plane is leaving a flight, including chicken for losing perks (which I recall you aiming for last night in a 38). There is also bingo fuel or bingo ammo involved. Would you suggest that someone bingo should stay just to be an unarmed target just for you? Lotta people call chicken without knowing why the plane left,... reckless assumption IMO. 10 Yard penalty for over preached whine,... :)
Yadda yadda. I seen plenty of those and that's not what I'm talking about.
Isn't that why some of the muppets the other night stopped me from following a 38 (prolly Gizz) out of the flight so he could run home land his perks? That happened on 2 occasions with different planes in the same fight,.. a fight that Muppets promoted on 200. I mean you guys block off people going after your guy who is bingo and heading home to land perks,...yet can't seem to understand why others leave a fight, who doesn't have an escort home to land his perks. <shrug> You seem like a good guy to me Moot, but let the Muppets get off the "run from a fight whine", it's a little hypocritical.
Not what I'm talking about.
SkyRock is the biggest whiner of that group for people """""" running""""" . Yet I see you guys escort AC out of the fight so they can run home to land perks.
Non sequitur and not what I'm talking about.
What makes the Muppets a good squad is they rarely seem to fight alone. Which is how a squad should operate...but to make up flames because someone else isn't escorted out of a fight by their wingmen is welll... you know.... kinda stupit. :)
... Not rarely. In fact.. At least half the time. And again wingman enabled exits isn't what I'm talking about.
I'm ot trying to insult, I'm just speaking like I see it. Some other people in the game can't EVER enter a thread about ANYTHING without ignoring the thread title and snivel about someone """""""runnnnnnnning"""""" for the god of all pilots.
You're not seeing what I'm talking about.
Fir god sakes people, get a grip. !!!! <runs like hell>
I've got a clean grip on it, that's not the problem.. The problem is it's not what people want to hear.
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Isn't this thread a virtual duplicate of one awhile ago? Anyway, I vote for the gameplay maybe having changed, slightly, due to large vs small maps, but that the community is about the same, going all the way back 22 years to AW on GEnie. You think vulching is new? In AW multiple people would man a bomber (you could have more than one gunner), fly to an enemy field, take out the ack, land, and continually vulch people spawning on the runway. (That's why AH disables buff guns when on the ground, I think the HTC guys remember this from their time on AW. I can't remember the slang name given for it though.)
So I vote Rose-colored Glasses ;)
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I find it interesting that the guys who have been playing for 3-5 years don't noticr any dec;line in
gameplay. I find Ghosth's assurtion that it's the old timer's fault for not babysitting the relative newcomers hilarious.
Apparently setting an example by your behavior doesn't count. Of course the attitudes possessed by the plasyers
have nothing at all to do with behavior. Blaming another group for your flawed perception is easy and painless. I'm sure
HTC will port the game to XBox soon, after all, it makes perfect economic sense.
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I started back in aces high 1
and I have not noticed any huge changes,
the biggest difference I see is introduction of new aircraft and gvs that have changed the arena a little bit
but the way people have fought still seems to be the same to me
you got the pilots who relies on head on's, the turn and burners, the E fighters , the low level bombers, the spawn campers, and all those who mix it up in varying dweeb forms that people are complaining about
and then you got those out there that fly a20s and SBD's that have star wars jedi ability that proceed to massacre all the weaker pilots who lack the Force
no aces high has not changed much from what I can tell
I have changed alot but not aces high
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I'm sorry but the game has changed markedly.
The actual game itself changed in version 1.4 with a fundamental change it the flight model specific to E retention. I honestly am in no position to argue that the old FM was more correct (personal belief is yes) but the FM after 1.4 is without a doubt easy mode compared to the original. One of the things that really "got me" during beta was all of a sudden all the ACM comments, stories, shaw etc made sense. ACM was king and mistakes were costly.
As mentioned above the numbers and inclination were different, to me this was partially environment driven. Smaller numbers created more individual and small group fights. The smaller map made finding a fight easier and avoiding one (not that many people did) tougher. This created a more personal interaction. The FM was significantly more demanding (we basically have the RR version now IMO) so B&Z vs E vs angle fighting was complex and challenging. The 190/109/pony (among others) werent the uber E machines we have now. All planes bled E at a higher rate and E management was at a premium.
I think this created better fights and lower frustration, you could work a higher con and create a shot window. As a result the "golden BB" was a real and respected thing. So was the multiple fight victor. A guy who had sweated out 3 kills was highly regarded and it was easy to let him RTB. It was also easier to appreciate the guy who wore you down and popped your rode at 650+. The salutes and comments were more genuine and an appreciation of the skill and effort was both real and understood. Most of us were actively looking for the holy grail of dog fighting. Not just angles fighting, but E and B&Z as well.
The simple reality is that Aces High was a game focused on air combat...now its not...and to me that says it all.
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The game basically hasnt changed but the players have, it used to be smaller 5 to 10 man missions now and then. Now its nothin but 30-50 man horde missions one after the other which gets the newcomers into this "I have to be part of the horde or i cant fight" mentallity. They never learn ACM or SA and its really a sad statement for an otherwise good game.
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MA is no longer fun for me. In early 2000 it was. I had many memorable fights with Citabria, Drex etc. Good one on ones mostly with respect on bothsides.
If it weren't for my Squadmates for the last 10 years, FSO or Scenarios I frankly would not be here. I'm playing in the MA less and less each tour.
rob53, Shamus, Vati, EDO all were here and enjoyed the game very very much. So much so we formed a squad, one of the oldest still in Aces High. And we are still flying
together regularly.
The difference I see is an influx of first person shooter players who have little interest in History or aircraft for that matter. ACM and SA is foreign to them.
To bad they give points in this game.
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Snip
<blank stare>
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I think so too. You missed my point.
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Isn't this thread a virtual duplicate of one awhile ago? Anyway, I vote for the gameplay maybe having changed, slightly, due to large vs small maps, but that the community is about the same, going all the way back 22 years to AW on GEnie. You think vulching is new? In AW multiple people would man a bomber (you could have more than one gunner), fly to an enemy field, take out the ack, land, and continually vulch people spawning on the runway. (That's why AH disables buff guns when on the ground, I think the HTC guys remember this from their time on AW. I can't remember the slang name given for it though.)
So I vote Rose-colored Glasses ;)
No one wants to listen to that, including HTC,.. I agree totally, the maps are too big and they enable more nonsense.
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I dont believe the map size has anything to do with players behavior but concerning 'running' I cant blame people for not wanting to be ganged. So those of you that know how should show people how to handle an airplane without resorting to the tight-gripped twirly-dance of noobishness so they can handle gang-bangers and then you wont see so many runners. If you arent doing that then you cant complain. :eek:
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To me, Aces High was never about ACM. My interest in WW2 planes start out from the historical perspective, and therefore what is most important for me was how different pilots in different planes would act out in an virtual environment, and through such experience, "feeling" and "imagining" how WW2 might have been was always more important than the my dick is bigger than your dick-ish contest of ACM. In my point of view, everyone has different amount of talent when it comes to aerial combat, so no matter how much one "practices" stuff, in the end there is always someone you find difficult to beat, and someone you can do so easily. Not everyone can become the superb pilot we all wish to be, and as such justifies the concept of tactics - if you can't beat him alone, you beat him with a better plane, an altitude advantage, a cherry pick, and if all else fails, with numbers. To me, the "1vs1" or "duel" or "ACM-oriented" mentality was never appealing in the first place.
Therefore, how the aerial combat full of common, mediocre pilots played out was much more interesting to me. After all, these guys are like the normal, everyday pilots of WW2. They don't get the bravado and attention the more famous pilots do, nor can they make quick scrap metal out of any enemy plane they meet like them 'superaces'. They drop like flies when things go bad, they make mistakes, they're not too good, and they are just plain, average. However, these average pilots are the backbone of the airforce, and how they fight and survive in the war makes history - not just a handful experten. These people can't just become a 'good pilots', so they do anything they can within the MA to survive, and that's what was more interesting for me to watch, than the egomaniacal superpilots doing what they do all the time - fight and meet an inferior pilot, win, and then boast about it.
Thus, during the initial phase of the explosion in MA numbers I welcomed it. The "land-grab" gave the MA something larger than just what a handful ACM-lovers can enjoy. It started a coherent, full-blown 'war' into the MA where different range of situations and tactics could occur. Before that, the "war" aspect of the MA was nothing much more than a colorful facade or a background. However, with the increase in MA numbers the "war" became more apparent, and individual strifes and ACM contests - no matter how fancy or impressive - just didn't mean anything much anymore. With more numbers each of the WW2 military asepct portrayed in AH began to take form. Naval warfare and ground warfare now meant something. Tactics and strategies developed around what was previously much neglected, and treated as a few fun gimmicks for people to enjoy outside of being in an aircraft cockpit.
Then, as the numbers grew larger, the war in the MA grew more intense. People discovered the most primitive, most simple, and yet most brutal and effective tactic of all time - the Horde. People didn't fight anymore. The MA turned into a strange combination of a milkrun + overrun... where one front would be left mostly undefended and overrun by enemy horde, while the other front would be milkrun by one's own horde. It would become a chicken race - which side can steamroll and milkrun the most bases before enemies drive in through one's own undefended flank. All other tactical choices were gone, and since the MA system didn't have a centralized, coordinated strat system in place, it dug itself inside the mindset of every common player in the game.
The war in MA grows hotter and hotter, but unfortunatley, the MA is completely devoid of all of the aspects which make a war more than just ganging up into huge numbers. No attrition, no real strat/economy which effects efficiency of the military, no central chain of command which stops people from just deserting a tough fight and seeking out easy gangbang, milkrun opportunities. In short, no reason for people to come up with something else than just joining the horde movement and following it around. People do what they can do to survive. You can't blame them for it. They found the simplest, most effective way to enjoy MA.
The "Golden Years" are gone. It's not coming back. The problem with the MA is not that it has changed in mentality - but rather, the problem is that it hasn't changed structurally.
This all-out war shouldn't neccesarily be so unenjoyable for the old timers... but it is.
Fighting an all-out war shouldn't necessarily mean everyone should join an all-out massive offensive against undefended enemy lands... but it is.
Fighting an all-out war shouldn't necessarily mean that being on the defensive side is pitting yourself against the entire enemy horde... but it is.
When the focus of the MA shifted to this "war", the structure of the MA should have changed with it, to adequately accomodate for the new tendencies and situations in the MA. However, none of what was suggested ever made it into the game. The MA system remains as it was in AH1. People can do anything, fly anything, go anywhere - so, they are free to make up large hordes, avoid fights, abandon entire fronts, and milkrun airfields. Not only is there no ACM-oriented aerial combat now, but also no strategy or tactic.
The MA numbers grew large enough for a war...and so many new aircraft/vehicles have also been added into the MA to play out a war. However, the organization level and the strat system of the MA remains non-existant up to this date. We have all the toys and tools to make this a pseudo-WW2, except none of the "rules" are here. So without those "rules", it's basically nothing more than a huge team-FFA where bunching up into huge numbers and ganging up on those lesser in numbers is the only way to go.
So at this point, I find myself asking; "does the MA not need a structural change now?" It's time to rethink attrition, industry, economy, organization, limitations, and everything that's not in the MA, so everyone can find something to enjoy.
Perhaps the discontinuation of Combat Theater can become something good.
Perhaps, all of the systems that have been developed or conceptualized for the CT, can be transplanted directly into the MA.
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I think Kweassa's post is excellent, as always.
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I can't remember the slang name given for it though.)
I remember I called it a "death star b17".
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I think Kweassa's post is excellent, as always.
Shucks. You make me blush, ol' friend :D
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Kweassa, suppose the trainers had a new tool at their disposal: AI to get players to practice any given BFM/ACM with/against, as many times as they wanted. What do you expect would happen if the ground level of "normal" players' ACM/SA were raised this way?
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Kweassa, suppose the trainers had a new tool at their disposal: AI to get players to practice any given BFM/ACM with/against, as many times as they wanted. What do you expect would happen if the ground level of "normal" players' ACM/SA were raised this way?
Then the training arena would become deserted.
ps1) It's true! :D
ps2) As a rule of thumb, newbies hate training, since they're immensely stupid in nature. Besides, they also hate being trapped in a 'tutorial zone' without being given access to the 'main grounds'.
However, there is one way to do it.
The funny thing about online-game newbies, is that while they hate tutorials, if the tutorials gives them something, even something meaningless as a 'merit badge', they would see through its bitter end.
Therefore, my diabolical plan would be to implement the whole "training ground" concept (as once visualized by the CT) directly into the MA itself, and trick the newbies by telling them its a merit-earning test of flight skill. For example, each of the three chess-piece territories would have a pilot training ground near the HQ... the newbies of the game would be required to sign up as a pilot trainee, and we tell them that its a realistic depiction of real WW2, just like real pilots would get training and get their wings by passing the test. They'd get in planes, but their ammunition would be non-lethal, and only for training purposes.
Then, we can take off in an NOE mission, go to the enemy HQ, and raid the newbie training ground where hordes of newbies would be playing to get their merit badges. We kill them all, and watch them whine on channel 200.
ps3) I think I deserve an "Evil Genius" merit badge.
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I remember I called it a "death star b17".
The term he was searching for was "Blood Pig". (or was it Blood Dragon? I forget now. I think it was Blood Pig in AirWarrior and maybe Blood Dragon in WarBirds)
Here is a link to a Blood Pig mission written by the great Dok Gonzo (http://www.gonzoville.com/games/4q-the-blood-pig/)
(edit: I found the following motivational posters on the site and I hope Dok doesn't mind me posting these here. They are hillarious! I'll post a few and the rest can be found here (http://www.gonzoville.com/games/flight-sim-motivators/))
(http://www.gonzoville.com/wp-gallery/Motivators/headon.jpg)
(http://www.gonzoville.com/wp-gallery/Motivators/gangbang.jpg)
(http://www.gonzoville.com/wp-gallery/Motivators/dweeb.jpg)
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The term he was searching for was "Blood Pig". (or was it Blood Dragon? I forget now. I think it was Blood Pig in AirWarrior and maybe Blood Dragon in WarBirds)
Here is a link to a Blood Pig mission written by the great Dok Gonzo (http://www.gonzoville.com/games/4q-the-blood-pig/)
(edit: I found the following motivational posters on the site and I hope Dok doesn't mind me posting these here. They are hillarious! I'll post a few and the rest can be found here (http://www.gonzoville.com/games/flight-sim-motivators/))
(http://www.gonzoville.com/wp-gallery/Motivators/headon.jpg)
(http://www.gonzoville.com/wp-gallery/Motivators/gangbang.jpg)
(http://www.gonzoville.com/wp-gallery/Motivators/dweeb.jpg)
:lol
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When the focus of the MA shifted to this "war", the structure of the MA should have changed with it, to adequately accomodate for the new tendencies and situations in the MA. However, none of what was suggested ever made it into the game. The MA system remains as it was in AH1. People can do anything, fly anything, go anywhere - so, they are free to make up large hordes, avoid fights, abandon entire fronts, and milkrun airfields. Not only is there no ACM-oriented aerial combat now, but also no strategy or tactic.
There have been many suggestions that made it into the game, the things you typically suggest do not make it in because most of what you suggest would destroy AH, and then no one would be able to play.
I also love how you make completely false statements in your claims.
1. People can fly any where? Really I didn't know people could get into a full arena, or if you mean any where on the map, I didn't know all planes had unlimited range? And when did it change that you can take off from any field with any plane?
2. You can fly any plane in what arena, simple things like disabling planes with side imbalance come to mind? Let alone the 2 other arenas with limited plane sets.
3. I also love how you say there is not tactics and strategy. What do you believe hit them where they ain't is? Do you believe it just happens at random?
4. "People can do anything, fly anything, go anywhere - so, they are free to make up large hordes, avoid fights, abandon entire fronts, and milkrun airfields" These ARE strategies.
5. "The MA system remains as it was in AH1." wrong again , there have been multiple changes to the strat systems in AH.
So your basic claim that nothing has been done to change with the times is utter complete BS or lies which ever you prefer. But if you really wish to set up false straw man arguments go a head and keep playing with yourself.
HiTech
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When I refer to ACM i'm not talking about "dog fighting" per se. Air combat is the intent to engage and destroy the enemy in combat. Any Maneuvering executed with that intent is "ACM". Anybody who says the underlying intent of the majority of the player bas hasn't changed is wrong IMO....
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The game hasn't changed.
Clearly. The prevalence of threads stating so on page one of this very forum are no indication that a general feeling of discontent does, indeed, exist.
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Most definitely Rose Colored Glasses.
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Just curious. Were you there?
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Most definitely Rose Colored Glasses.
You haven't been flying here for 2 years yet, how would you know how game play has changed?
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I think the general mentality has changed over the years since I started in 02. To be fair to HT, there have been quite a few changes with the game since then, my favorites being the inablity to pork fuel to 25% and the splitting up arenas. The biggest issue I have with the game today is not so much the base capturing, but the willingness of the teams to simply swap bases...for whatever reason.
One example that I see quite often, are huge red bars over 1 friendly field, with no green dar. In another area, against the same country attacking, there is a huge green dar, with no red dar. It seems quite clear while country A is attacking B at one field, country B is more than willing to let that field go, and attempt to take another empty field. There just seems no real incentive to hold a base. I distinctly remember many years ago, when one base was over run, there would often (not always) be an effort to up from a field further back and try to keep the base from being captured. Now, it seems this rarely happens, maybe you get 1-4 guys...4 if your lucky.
Another prime example of this was the other week while flying with the Bish. We were barely defending a base, holding our own, but clearly outnumbered. It was a good fight. Then someone decides to up a mission, to a base on the other side of the map...where there was no acitivity...no real strategical reason, just a milkrun. I can only assume the mission got good numbers, because of the few of us defending the base, many left. 15 minutes later (or whatever) the base we were defending is completely covered with red, and then then captured. Of course a bunch of the guys that were in the mission to base nowhere, who took away people defending the base immediatly jump on country channel complaining about how useless the Bish are because the other field was captured. But of course they are the great heros right, because they took a base completely away from the action.
Some nights are very frustrating as it just seems as I'm either going to have to wade in and fight the horde...or become the horde and compete for that 1 kill with 10 other guys. Then again, some days you find some good fights...but this is far from a guarantee. I'm not 100% the horde is the real issue...I think the larger issue is the unwillingness of the general population to put alot of effort into trying to fend off these forces...Not to mention NOE hordes.
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Kweassa, suppose the trainers had a new tool at their disposal: AI to get players to practice any given BFM/ACM with/against, as many times as they wanted. What do you expect would happen if the ground level of "normal" players' ACM/SA were raised this way?
The continuous drone of "no-one fights any more" would die out and be replaced with the clatter of all the crying cause you got shot down! All the spandex wearin superheros would be shot down more often by a better trained cadre of players! Essentially replacing one gripe for another :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
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It is my perception based on the constant discussion I see here on the boards balanced with my own life experience of 40 years. I am truly sorry, I did not realize that only folks with "X" amount of years allowed to post here. :uhoh
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I said it before:
Been playing AH since Jan 2002. I've seen no significant changes in how folks play the game during that time. I realize some will disagree and imply the game is going to hell but I see 400 to 600 people playing each night that seem to still be enjoying themselves, or maybe they are all masochists?
Is it possible that part of the problem lies within? Is there a even a remote chance of some level of burnout... but of course not and how dare I even suggest such a thing! Yet if in fact it's the "other players" who are ruining the game then I think you'd be well served to ask yourself "can I change the behavior of 400 other individuals?" Good luck with that.
Some of the complaining in here reminds me of a gal I dated years ago. She didn't like my car, my clothes, my furniture, my hair, my friends, my apartment... Finally I "put her out of her misery" and released her back into the wild. Now I figure she's making some other poor b@st@rd miserable.
Is AH perfect? Well that is in the eye of the beholder, but she looks damn good to me. I'm still having a blast and if I ever get to the stage where I'm not having fun I'll pack it in and move on to something else.
I can only imagine how the creators of this game must react inwardly to all the complaints. It's admirable for them to give everyone a forum to provide feedback, but at what point does it stop being constructive and start becoming destructive? I give them a lot of credit for their tolerance, especially for the topics that are repeated ad nauseam. If I had to deal with one more collision model sucks, or HO's suck, or eny sucks, or gameplay sucks, or arena caps suck thread... well my advice would eventually be, "don't go away mad, just go away."
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Over the weekend Soulyss, ZAP and I were "defending" a base in MWA against a larger incoming group. Now all 3 of us are basically furballers with zero score interest. Initially numbers were roughly 2.5 to one. All 3 of us tend to just cruise on out to the action so we normally dont get to high. As a result we'd end up both -E and -numbers...no problem. Over 20-30 min numbers got even more lopsided and you had a couple of guys specifically intent on picking an already lopsided fight. End result was the 3 or us logged. No other fight to be had and no reason to pursue this one any farther.
Now this isnt the big map, big numbers of the LWA. This is 45 people or so on a smaller map. Anyone who's been flying MWA or flew the old CT before it died will know the fundamental shift in attitude is very very real. Further you get some significant smack talk "go cry in your cheerio's" from guys who wont ever offer up a real one on one.
The simple reality is that the mentality of the people in the game has changed, accordingly so has game play....for the worse.
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It is my perception based on the constant discussion I see here on the boards balanced with my own life experience of 40 years. I am truly sorry, I did not realize that only folks with "X" amount of years allowed to post here. :uhoh
The point I was trying to make was you really have nothing to compare it to.
Last years Mustang, and the Mustang of two years ago is pretty much the same car, so no real way to compare anything other than to say its pretty much the same. Now compare either one with the 69 Mustang. While they look similar they are vastly different. See what I'm saying?
To someone who has only played less than two years you don't see much of a change, but when compared with looking back 10 years the changes are easy to see.
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There have been many suggestions that made it into the game, the things you typically suggest do not make it in because most of what you suggest would destroy AH, and then no one would be able to play.
I also love how you make completely false statements in your claims.
1. People can fly any where? Really I didn't know people could get into a full arena, or if you mean any where on the map, I didn't know all planes had unlimited range? And when did it change that you can take off from any field with any plane?
2. You can fly any plane in what arena, simple things like disabling planes with side imbalance come to mind? Let alone the 2 other arenas with limited plane sets.
3. I also love how you say there is not tactics and strategy. What do you believe hit them where they ain't is? Do you believe it just happens at random?
4. "People can do anything, fly anything, go anywhere - so, they are free to make up large hordes, avoid fights, abandon entire fronts, and milkrun airfields" These ARE strategies.
5. "The MA system remains as it was in AH1." wrong again , there have been multiple changes to the strat systems in AH.
So your basic claim that nothing has been done to change with the times is utter complete BS or lies which ever you prefer. But if you really wish to set up false straw man arguments go a head and keep playing with yourself.
HiTech
<wipes tears> that was beautiful.
>> IMO<< you need to do that more often.
<runs and hides>
Animl
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It will always come down to getting out of the game what you put into it.
I gave up expecting things from other players many years ago. If I fly assuming the guy pointing at me is going to go for the HO, I'm not surprised if he does, and will avoid setting one up for him. If I assume I won't get a "fair" 1v1 fight, I fight expecting to get jumped and am not disappointed when it happens. I try very hard to put myself in situations that when I am actually surprised, it's because the silly stuff didn't happen.
The game itself, whether evolving from a very rough early Air Warrior to the now more evolved Aces High II really hasn't changed much at all if you think about it. Your still a bunch of people sitting in your homes manipulating a small screen, the graphics have improved as they relate to what they used to be, but remember when AW went 3d? That was a "stunning" improvement but poor in today's standards. There are games with far superior graphics, like MS FS X with the quality ramped up to full. You can't play them with 300 people in a room though, so compromises in quality for playability must occur. Still, between the two extremes, the basic game is the same. Take off, fly, die, rinse, repeat. The only variable is your direct participation and expectations.
The players will always make the difference, and not in the way you would imagine. There has been and always will be dweebs, noobs, squeakers and the like. You all were, you just didn't have the experience to know it was you, and don't really want to remember that you acted at one point in your gaming career as a clueless dolt. You have more experience now, and your perception of the game has changed. The game hasn't. The game hasn't changed since games were played with rolling dice. The basic playability is the same.
If you launch in the main arenas, where there is a designed free for all setup, you simply have to accept the fact that someone will do something you don't agree with. Get over it. I see more players complain about things they have no control over, then don't attend the special events where they have complete control. Nothing new, it's always been that way. Take this exact same conversation and change the format from Air Warrior on Genie to when they went to AOL. Darn near verbatim, same thoughts on the good old days compared to now. Always going downhill, always changing, but more people log in now than ever. The game hasn't changed, perception of it has, and it is inevitable, as your experiences change. It is impossible to look at the same thing twice and see it without changes, as your experience has changed. Knowing that, I go back to the original comment. You will only get out of the game, regardless of the game, exactly what you put into it.
<golf clap>
I still remember a lot of things we looked past in AW. Which is why I always tried to spruce it up somehow.
HT please put together, or make available a sound chart that shows which actions trigger which sound files for us. I know there are some out there but no one seems willing to cough one up, and skuzzy says he doesn't have any such thing. I'd rather put what small time I have into building a SP then doing the rearch to be able to plot out something accurate,... ya I know I'm anal, but then you already knew that didn't you. :)
I only have one single personal preference,....SLIGHTLY smaller MAs maps with slightly less bases. And,.. and if I don't get it I'm quitting,...<squints around room to see if anyone is panicking to save me> I mean it, I have my hand on the button right now,...you can't stop me,......I mean it,.... I'm really leaving this time,....you'll all be sorry,...twitches finger....
Animl
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There have been many suggestions that made it into the game, the things you typically suggest do not make it in because most of what you suggest would destroy AH, and then no one would be able to play.
I also love how you make completely false statements in your claims.
1. People can fly any where? Really I didn't know people could get into a full arena, or if you mean any where on the map, I didn't know all planes had unlimited range? And when did it change that you can take off from any field with any plane?
2. You can fly any plane in what arena, simple things like disabling planes with side imbalance come to mind? Let alone the 2 other arenas with limited plane sets.
3. I also love how you say there is not tactics and strategy. What do you believe hit them where they ain't is? Do you believe it just happens at random?
4. "People can do anything, fly anything, go anywhere - so, they are free to make up large hordes, avoid fights, abandon entire fronts, and milkrun airfields" These ARE strategies.
5. "The MA system remains as it was in AH1." wrong again , there have been multiple changes to the strat systems in AH.
So your basic claim that nothing has been done to change with the times is utter complete BS or lies which ever you prefer. But if you really wish to set up false straw man arguments go a head and keep playing with yourself.
HiTech
HT -
I am headed to the gym so I don't have time to pick apart your post the way you picked apart Kweassa's. Let me just ask you one question, point blank.
Ok. Two.
Do you approve of the gameplay in the MA today?
Is an arena full of hordes playing musical fields what you envisioned when you sat down to make "The Internets Premier WW2 Combat Experience?"?
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The continuous drone of "no-one fights any more" would die out and be replaced with the clatter of all the crying cause you got shot down! All the spandex wearin superheros would be shot down more often by a better trained cadre of players! Essentially replacing one gripe for another
There would be no gripes. I think this is a lot of vets 'vision' of the game. Being able to find skilled fights in the MA consistently due to players taking the time to learn ACM. Wouldn't that be something?
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HT -
I am headed to the gym so I don't have time to pick apart your post the way you picked apart Kweassa's. Let me just ask you one question, point blank.
Ok. Two.
Do you approve of the gameplay in the MA today?
Is an arena full of hordes playing musical fields what you envisioned when you sat down to make "The Internets Premier WW2 Combat Experience?"?
Scary how much we think alike.
D, in all honesty... I'll just throw the question out there.
Do you think that the community, and in tandem with same the quality of the gameplay, has deteriorated from what it was 10 years ago or, by contrast, do you feel as though no substantial change has been realized?
In an effort to avoid misunderstanding, 'gameplay' is exclusive of 'the game.'
Catch-22, I know. You are concerned that you might be shooting yourself in the foot with your answer, but I think that many of us who grew up playing the games you had a hand in creating would be appreciative of your input.
Thanks.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,260282.msg3230779.html#msg3230779
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there have been multiple changes to the strat systems in AH.
Hitech, how have you changed the City > Factories > Fields, strat systems?
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There would be no gripes. I think this is a lot of vets 'vision' of the game. Being able to find skilled fights in the MA consistently due to players taking the time to learn ACM. Wouldn't that be something?
Vision of the game ? Why then do I see you guys consistently hovering the edge of a base cherrying all those trying to climb to you ? I thought the "VISION" was a fair engagement with a worthy opponent :aok In the DA you guys are very different than in the MA, In the DA you leave your fragile egos at the door, while in the MA you wear them like a pimp wears snake skin platforms, avoiding every little puddle or smidge of dirt :rofl :rofl :rofl If the vets want the "FIGHT" in the MA as they say, then how about offering the fair fight you say you seek, in the MA :aok :aok
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Is an arena full of hordes playing musical fields what you envisioned when you sat down to make "The Internets Premier WW2 Combat Experience?"?
Urchin, when did you stop beating your wife?
If you wish a question answered, try putting it in the form of a real question, rather than a question loaded with whine.
HiTech
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There have been many suggestions that made it into the game, the things you typically suggest do not make it in because most of what you suggest would destroy AH, and then no one would be able to play.
I also love how you make completely false statements in your claims.
Gee, I wouldn't have imagined one might need to specify and explain every single bit of inclination and implication embedded within one's own text to make people understand something so obvious, lest they be fed words into their mouths which they've not even spoken, and even worse - being called a liar and BS for making a simple opinion.
So fine, let's play it your way.
1. People can fly any where? Really I didn't know people could get into a full arena, or if you mean any where on the map, I didn't know all planes had unlimited range? And when did it change that you can take off from any field with any plane?
Obviously, people can fly any where they want within the constraints of their current chesspiece of choice - which in this case implies not the actual physical positioning on the map, but rather the situation where people are free to choose at which airfield within access they might take off.
2. You can fly any plane in what arena, simple things like disabling planes with side imbalance come to mind? Let alone the 2 other arenas with limited plane sets.
Obviously, people can fly any plane within the limits of given planeset either specified by the map, or the side-balancer tool.
3. I also love how you say there is not tactics and strategy. What do you believe hit them where they ain't is? Do you believe it just happens at random?
4. "People can do anything, fly anything, go anywhere - so, they are free to make up large hordes, avoid fights, abandon entire fronts, and milkrun airfields" These ARE strategies.
Perhaps you could have given some thought that such particular strategy is what a lot of customers have been complaining about, and thus the 'absence of strategy or tactics' as mentioned earlier on might have obviously meant 'absence of strategy or tactics besides the only viable/visible horde strategy'? Does one really need to explain all of this stuff to be not called a 'liar'?
5. "The MA system remains as it was in AH1." wrong again , there have been multiple changes to the strat systems in AH.
Maybe I should have clarified, "the basic MA format remains as it was in AH1 - as in, kill defenses, land capture vehicle, capture airfield, the end". Sound better now?
So your basic claim that nothing has been done to change with the times is utter complete BS or lies which ever you prefer. But if you really wish to set up false straw man arguments go a head and keep playing with yourself.
HiTech
Ah yes. The classic, "you're BS, you're a liar, and you're wrong" punchline.
Call me whatever you want, but that doesn't really change the fact that a lot of once faithful customers are growing unhappy over how the MA is turning out, does it?
Gonna call me a liar on that, too? Oh wait, I think I know what's coming;
"People aren't unhappy, the MA is fine, most people just enjoy it, the one's who don't enjoy it are full of BS and are liars and morons, and they can just quit if they don't like it"
But unfortunately, HT, the "I grow tired of the MA.. it's no fun anymore" folks are gonna keep turning up - just like they've been turning up for the last few years. Seeing the ever increasing numbers of old-timers starting to feel that way, actually makes some of us worried about AH. So I don't really expect to see you stop insulting everyone you disagree to - I mean, that's one of your charms and all, but frankly it's not making anyone really feel safe about what's going on in the AH world.
You can call everyone who turns up with these opinions liars, but in the end, when there are a LOT of us 'liars' turning up with worried voices, it may hold some truth to it. I mean, why would anyone want to be a 'liar' about these stuff anyway? It's not as if us 'liars' are getting paid to somehow secretly undermine AH or something, not to mention, being called a 'liar' for making concerned inputs doesn't exactly make any one of us feel all fine and dandy. Not to mention one of these clashes in the BBS with you may even make any of us get PNGd in an awesome display of raw power.
So why risk all that to say something you might not agree on?
Maybe its because we love AH too?
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Urchin, when did you stop beating your wife?
If you wish a question answered, try putting it in the form of a real question, rather than a question loaded with whine.
HiTech
classic :rofl :rofl :rofl :huh
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I don't see how you can pin changes on game play on the designer. It's not the game driving the change, its the people in the game. Now I'd love the old FM back but don't have the technical knowledge to argue its more accurate. What I do think is that a tactical arena would do well. you often have more people in FB lake then the EWA or MWA (and sometimes both). The AvA has less use (95% of the time) then any other arena. A few FSO's ago we had the bulge setup with heavy cloud cover at variable levels. Tremendous fun IMO, I also remember low clouds and even fog in another FSO not long ago. I'd love to see an arena with no 4 engine bombers and strat/capture either eliminated or minimized. It wouldnt appeal to everyone but I bet it would get as much or more play then the MWA...
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Vision of the game ? Why then do I see you guys consistently hovering the edge of a base cherrying all those trying to climb to you ? I thought the "VISION" was a fair engagement with a worthy opponent
Often, maybe, not consistently. When it happens it's cause there's no fight elsewhere. Have you been on our squad vox? If you had, you'd hear the grinding of teeth anytime fights disappear and we end up doing that. It's utterly boring. Most of us end up logging when it happens for longer than ~30min. A couple of us log a lot quicker than that without even saying anything :lolIn the DA you guys are very different than in the MA, In the DA you leave your fragile egos at the door, while in the MA you wear them like a pimp wears snake skin platforms, avoiding every little puddle or smidge of dirt
:aok :rofl :rofl :rofl If the vets want the "FIGHT" in the MA as they say, then how about offering the fair fight you say you seek, in the MA :aok :aok
Pure crap.
In blue: bring it on.
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"I grow tired of the MA.. it's no fun anymore"
At last Kewassa you make since, I am 100% sure these people will keep showing up, it is the nature of the beast. But you seem to think it is the games fault, when it is just the way people are. There are very few people who maintain an interest in one game for ever. Catering to these people has been tried by one sim, I do not see many people playing there any longer.
The rest of your argument has become a moving target. I will only point out one.
Obviously, people can fly any where they want within the constraints of their current chesspiece of choice - which in this case implies not the actual physical positioning on the map, but rather the situation where people are free to choose at which airfield within access they might take off.
With this logic no mater what changes you make to the game or to the rules every one can say, people can fly what they want when they want with in the confines of the rules of the game. So no mater how Kawassa would design a game this would still hold true. The rest of your statement are exactly the same.
HiTech
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Often, maybe, not consistently. When it happens it's cause there's no fight elsewhere. Have you been on our squad vox? If you had, you'd hear the grinding of teeth anytime fights disappear and we end up doing that. It's utterly boring. Most of us end up logging when it happens for longer than ~30min. A couple of us log a lot quicker than that without even saying anything :lolPure crap.
In blue: bring it on.
I've been ganged and picked by you guys more times than i can count, yet I rarely have picked or even seen you guys picked in the MA, when you guys are bish I see you almost exclusively at the edge of fields, and many times in the horde! Don't get me wrong, you guys are very good "video game" pilots but the truth is the truth! Your attitude in the DA is very different than the MA. Maybe there's less ego to lose in the DA :aok
I have a question for you! If you guys side change to be on the country with inferior #s, then why do you fly in the largest dar for that country ? :huh If fighting against the horde "against all odds" and OWNING them all is what vets like yourselves are all about, wouldn't it make more sense to stay away from the friendly horde and maybe up at attacked and capped fields, as many with less ability do routinely? Or do you enjoy feeding off those who actually up "against the odds" at those very fields and situations?
No insult here, just pondering your guys' self proclaimed ethical superiority over the AH comunity as a whole :aok
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Obviously, people can fly any where they want within the constraints of their current chesspiece of choice - which in this case implies not the actual physical positioning on the map, but rather the situation where people are free to choose at which airfield within access they might take off.
With this logic no mater what changes you make to the game or to the rules every one can say, people can fly what they want when they want with in the confines of the rules of the game. So no mater how Kawassa would design a game this would still hold true. The rest of your statement are exactly the same.
HiTech
What about linked base capture? Complete freedom of movement was brought up because it's what allows the 20 plane NOE missions to the undefended field, where the only way to defend against would be to sit in the tower and watch for towns to start flashing.
Some of us would love it if you gave it a try again where one arena has linked capture, and the other doesn't. :aok
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No insult here, just pondering your guys' self proclaimed ethical superiority over the AH comunity as a whole :aok
You are not the only one pondering Shreck...
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What ethical superiority? The only argument has always been gameplay quality. That the whole point of the game is AIR COMBAT. Not running from it or denying it by dissolving it in the excessive odds of hordes. Not capturing bases while avoiding enemy contact to the maximum.
Shreck, why do you get picked? I'll admit some in the squad get a huge rise out of your ch200 "feedback" everytime you get shot down. It's like whack a mole. I personally don't care. Ego has nothing to do with it. And as a matter of fact, there's more ego to be had in the DA. There's no excuses and any dogfighting insufficiencies will show like sore thumbs.
wouldn't it make more sense to stay away from the friendly horde and maybe up at attacked and capped fields, as many with less ability do routinely?
Once again you need to do your homework. You talk about it like you'd been keeping an accurate account, but you obviously don't. We do the above easily more than half the time. Dano especially will fly against us and explicitely and stubbornly refuse to fly with us if we're on the side with numbers. In one case I had to argue with him that the numbers on our side didn't outweigh the fact that his side was better organized (flights of same plane in proper flights, with alt) while ours was just random mobs on the deck getting trounced by his side's organisation.
Dano, Agent, Sads, Scotch, do almost nothing but flying into suicidal odds. I don't know where you get your intel.
We're now off-topic.
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What ethical superiority? The only argument has always been gameplay quality. That the whole point of the game is AIR COMBAT. Not running from it or denying it by dissolving it in the excessive odds of hordes. Not capturing bases while avoiding enemy contact to the maximum.
Shreck, why do you get picked? I'll admit some in the squad get a huge rise out of your ch200 "feedback" everytime you get shot down. It's like whack a mole.
We're now off-topic.
Hmm, well it certainly isn't everytime I get shot down :aok and more times than not my "feedback" is in response to some lame play or comment by a vet! Never directed at new folks :aok So me thinks you need to do a little homework yourself :aok
Once again, NO insult intended, just response! If my homework is lacking, than yours is lacking just as much!
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What ethical superiority? The only argument has always been gameplay quality.
But you guys are soooo very guilty of the same game play you aspouse to detest! Please correct me if I'm wrong !
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Huh? What I'm referring to is your excuses/complaining that you were shot down unfairly. Which you most often are, on purpose, by those guys, hoping to hear you on ch200, which you oblige. It has nothing to do with you or me directing it at new or old players and I never said anything about that.
But we're sooooo not very guilty of the same gameplay we aspouse to detest. There, that's the kind of correction you need to hear I guess. Because you're certainly not reporting what's actually being done with any accuracy. We put up a fight. Are you arguing otherwise? :rolleyes:
If my homework is lacking, than your's is lacking just as much!
Tautological rubbish full of grammar errors to boot.
I'm done contributing to this hijack. Reply in another thread if you want to further this argument.
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Huh? What I'm referring to is your excuses/complaining that you were shot down unfairly. Which you most often are, on purpose, by those guys, hoping to hear you on ch200, which you oblige. It has nothing to do with you or me directing it at new or old players and I never said anything about that.
But we're sooooo not very guilty of the same gameplay we aspouse to detest. There, that's the kind of correction you need to hear I guess. Because you're certainly not reporting what's actually being done with any accuracy. We put up a fight. Are you arguing otherwise? :rolleyes:
I'm done contributing to this hijack. Reply in another thread if you want to further this argument.
Hmm, it seems the E G O has taken over! too bad, maybe we were getting somewhere! It is very clear to me that some of you guys cannot handle the "light of criticism" winking you in the face! It must be cause you never do any kind of lame or unethical gameplay that is not directed torwards the betterment of this fine product named, ACES HIGH (sarcasym inserted) :aok
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Huh? What I'm referring to is your excuses/complaining that you were shot down unfairly. Which you most often are, on purpose, by those guys, hoping to hear you on ch200, which you oblige. It has nothing to do with you or me directing it at new or old players and I never said anything about that.
Hmm, let me try to follow this here! you guys gang me just to hear my ranting on 200, and yet when and IF you are ganged it's the "LAME GAMEPLAY" of the community as a whole! Is that it ? Cause that is what it sounds like! I guess what's good for the goose "is not" good for the gander :aok Just making sure I understand so I can follow "YOUR" rules :aok :rofl :rofl :rofl
As a side note, IF you are not part of the "SHRECK GANGING" than---> ty but clean kids who play with dirty kids, get dirty also by mere association :aok
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But you guys are soooo very guilty of the same game play you aspouse to detest! Please correct me if I'm wrong !
Do you remember our last fight? K4 v. G14? Maybe a week ago?
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Do you remember our last fight? K4 v. G14? Maybe a week ago?
Yes I do MAZZ! it was outstanding and as far as I know you are a quality individual <S>
I get your point ! but a few bad apples can affect the whole basket :aok
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Ego? :lol Will you revise your opinion of Mazz, if he says there's no ego in my last post? .. I rest my case.
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Is this just shreck's backhanded way of crying out that he really wants to be a muppet? Just wants to be accepted as one of the "l337" sticks in the game?
Well...
:rolleyes:
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Urchin, when did you stop beating your wife?
If you wish a question answered, try putting it in the form of a real question, rather than a question loaded with whine.
HiTech
I won't speak for Urchin, but my question was (a) in the form of a 'real question,' (b) not loaded with anything and (c) made a clear distinction between requesting your thoughts on the community as opposed to the game.
I think many would still appreciate your feedback because, in the event that it has gone unnoticed, people value your opinion, having created the game, and all.
As a caveat, let me know when you elect to add a public relations officer to the payroll and Ill shoot you my salary requirements. The need appears to be elevated...
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At last Kewassa you make since, I am 100% sure these people will keep showing up, it is the nature of the beast. But you seem to think it is the games fault, when it is just the way people are. There are very few people who maintain an interest in one game for ever. Catering to these people has been tried by one sim, I do not see many people playing there any longer.
The rest of your argument has become a moving target. I will only point out one.
With this logic no mater what changes you make to the game or to the rules every one can say, people can fly what they want when they want with in the confines of the rules of the game. So no mater how Kawassa would design a game this would still hold true. The rest of your statement are exactly the same.
HiTech
<bows to the messiah>
Awesome, there IS a god. :)
<walks away singing "tell it like it is.....">
<hides under a rock for shelter>
Animl
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See rule #4
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But you guys are soooo very guilty of the same game play you aspouse to detest! Please correct me if I'm wrong !
Let me correct you since you are wrong. :aok
Do Muppets gang, pick, run, HO, vulch? Yes. But the actuality of the situation is we do all these things very seldom where as other squads, it is their M.O. If you followed us around on a given night, you'd see a few HO's, a little bit of vulching, some picks, and some running ...absolutely no question about it. You'd also see an extraordinary amount of ownage. As defined on Yanksfan video biography of SkyRock, ownage is starting a fight at disadvantage, reversing the advantage, and killing the guy. Now, if you followed around a mega squad, you'd see a ton of HOs, purely hording, all picks, lots of running from perfectly fair fights, lots of vulching, and little to zero ownage. So to nitpick when you happen to see something you think makes us hypocrites is rather foolish.
Fights are dynamic and always changing. Situations are never black and white. We find ourselves in an even fight one minute and in a horde the next minute sometimes. The thing is when we realize this we go fight elsewhere. But to take a snapshot when we happen to have odds and try to justify a point that this is how we fight habitually is blatantly spinning it.
Let me take vulching for example. I'll up from a base that looks to be a good fight. Next thing you know, you've got a few kills and the fight has gotten completely pushed back to their base. Some Muppets would in fact auger when this happens but I'm not that honorable I guess. I will finish up my sortie whether it be a fair fight that it initially was or the vulch fest it turned into. After the flight, I will fly elsewhere. In fact a lot of the time, Muppets will change sides as a group and go fight the vulch horde. Lots of players can contest to witnessing this. Now imagine a player looking at the map and seeing a vulch fest in progress and taking an Fw190A-8 out of the hangar with the sole intention of vulching with the biggest guns in the game. You see the difference here? Imo, the key lies in your intentions when you take off.
Take HOing for example. A lot of players come in first merge guns blazing every time. You may see some Muppets complain about this. Say I'm fighting a Spit16 in a Ta152. After dodging a couple HO's I encounter a third HO situation and reciprocate with the Spit16 and luckily come out on top. Does this make me guilty of the exact things we complain about?
Take ganging for example. Say a fight starts off with 3 Muppets being attacked by 3 higher cons. We drag them down, kill 2 quickly, then coordinate on the 3rd one that tries to run away. We chase him down, the three of us, and kill him. Does this make us gang tards? Say I'm fighting a 1v1 and then 3 more allies jump the fight and I happen to kill the guy. Does this make me a 4v1 gangtard?
Take running for example. Say I'm fighting somebody and I see another con coming in for a pick so I break off and dive for the deck. Is this the same as somebody in a better turning plane running from a 1v1?
You can 'observe' anything happening at a particular time and come to your own conclusions on what is actually going on and how it transgressed into what you are seeing. The fact of the matter is, Muppets do try and fight by their own 'rules' and can be seen doing so the vast majority of the time.
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Let me take vulching for example. I'll up from a base that looks to be a good fight. Next thing you know, you've got a few kills and the fight has gotten completely pushed back to their base. Some Muppets would in fact auger when this happens but I'm not that honorable I guess. I will finish up my sortie whether it be a fair fight that it initially was or the vulch fest it turned into. After the flight, I will fly elsewhere.
I feel some sympathy with this post grizz, it happens like this for us sometimes also. We go to where there is a big red dar looking for the furball and up a group of fighters, kill a few in between the fields and the enemy either doesn't re-up for whatever reason or die some more and we push on towards their field getting even more kills and now happen to be perched over an enemy base with all the cards in our pocket. Some furballers on the other team will now take a snapshot of the big red dar and up at that field. We will then attack them with alt and whether we kill them or not their image of us is "pickers" or timid fairy queens.
You yourself called me out on 200 for killing your 109 in a pony in this very same situation awhile back, I was down on ammo and fuel after working slowly to that field, many guys ended up coming off the field and we ended up bugging out after getting our swagbag nice and full of pelts. You didn't expect me to go mix it up against a very good 109 stick, with a bunch of pissed off cons at the edge of an enemy field.
I don't mind getting killed but i will go out of my way to avoid getting ganged just to annoy the pack. These situations in the MA are very fluid. what someone sees one minute can drastically change in the next in terms of numbers.
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Yes I remember. It was ignorant of me to call you out, as it was my first sortie and I had no idea on the dynamic and development of the fight between the two bases. I just assumed the worst, which was a mistake made in frustration.
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See rule #4
Was a mistake in editing.
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See rule #4
:huh
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I disagree,
Aces High 1 was the way-more fun than anything since !!!
CHECKERS
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See rule #4
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Mazz, if you scroll up you may notice he stated he made a mistake in editing something. Could be referring to your post perhaps?
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Been flying AH since version one, although my flight time is greatly reduced now from past years (due to lack of time and interest). Game development seems to have slowed and the shelving of CT was a big disappointment. Imo the increasing number of mega squads (especially in FSO) and inclusion of GVs has not been a positive contribution to the sim, but thats just my opinion. ymmv
:salute
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Mazz, if you scroll up you may notice he stated he made a mistake in editing something. Could be referring to your post perhaps?
I hope so. I must admit I'm slightly taken back. I thought my question was both valid and perfectly respectful.
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See rule #4
Was a mistake in editing.
Lol, I was about to say; MAN, even hitech got riled up. :D
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We go to where there is a big red dar
Yours or mine? :rolleyes:
Was it just the other day when you were in a horde 3 dar bars deep, picking away your 17 kills in a temp, once your buds were gone, so were you? I am sure you have a good reason why you didn't come back like maybe the odds were shifting from your favor maybe..... or maybe everyone realized that out of everyone that was in the horde just wasnt as lucky as you getting to land,....... maybe they figured out that they were really the bait in order for you to get your kills, hmmmm makes you wonder..... :rofl
BTW, Shreck, you make a good point and agree with your opinion.
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I disagree,
Aces High 1 was the way-more fun than anything since !!!
CHECKERS
I disagree,... I felt kinda lost in AH1. From the first day I saw it's beta, then full AH1 to now,....is like the different between a mole hill and a mountain to me. >IMO< Some things have stayed the same, some things have changed.
I took a 4 year break when AH2 first came out, so I may have a more diverse comparison not watching it grow slowly and all the forgotten kack in the middle. I have a A and B comparision.
The sim (I refuse to call it anything else, basically because I am a bone head) IMO seems much easier to play and immerse into. I remember in AH 1 BEGGING to find a fight,..as I remember it it was more like a scattered flocks of seagulls,..I literally flew for 30 min to an hour and just getting one fight. That's not the game that's the people playing it. Those people got better and now instead of focusing on the learning part, are now good enough second nature they now snivel about the smallest details,.... over and over and over...you get the picture.
The balance between graphics and speed is a ultra fine line, a science, and the game has been very successful in that way. With that comes a crowd who looks for an easier learning curve, and not needing a monster PC to run it.
With that larger crowd also comes more dweebery. *> PER CAPITA <* a very important part of the equation. There are also many more good peeps and fair peeps (all depends how you define things), but remember, we only seem to remember what we perceive as bad things,..over the good.
I have MUCH more fun then not. The key is to not take every little detail too seriously. When you do that your mileage will vary. <shrug>
Those of us in AW looked past an awful lot to make the game great in our heads. If you didn't read the BBs to remind you of certain things they probably wouldn't be noticed. There should be a 300 perk penalty for repeat whines. <g>
And I guess my last point would be. when the players become so immersed in the game to sweat the small stuff,... then the game is VERY successful. If the game sucks, you will never make it past the big stuff to even find the small stuff.
I *think* Saxman is referring to the community influx symptoms and what comes with it naturally. It's frustrating to some and always will be. It's mixed company, new and vet, young and old. Clashes of mindsets are inevitable. IMO, I feel his pain, unfortunately it seems to go with the territory.
As Roc said,... you will get out of the game what you put into it.
A lot of things bother me, almost none of them haing to do with game mechanics,..and sometimes I don't always look past them,... but it's not RL life and death either,.. it's cartoon world.
Animl
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Let me correct you since you are wrong. :aok
Now, if you followed around a mega squad, you'd see a ton of HOs, purely hording, all picks, lots of running from perfectly fair fights, lots of vulching, and little to zero ownage. So to nitpick when you happen to see something you think makes us hypocrites is rather foolish.
This is clearly an unfounded generalization! Substantialy untrue!
Fights are dynamic and always changing. Situations are never black and white. We find ourselves in an even fight one minute and in a horde the next minute sometimes. The thing is when we realize this we go fight elsewhere. But to take a snapshot when we happen to have odds and try to justify a point that this is how we fight habitually is blatantly spinning it.
[/quote]
You use the word "We" as if you are the only ones that incur these situations, This statement is true enough, although I'd say it was true for the entire community.
Last night a wingy and I were hunting in deuces, we came upon a 190a5 and k4 coalt, we started workin them and a high spit9 showed up. At this moment "wingy" happened to get one of his shot off by the 190 and egressed the area, now I'm still workin these 3 avoiding HO after HO :D when a 38L shows up verily high above me. Now I still have good speed but the fight has brought me down to 5k where I finaly kill the spit! Still fast I continue to work the remaining 3 bogies, Now corner of my eye spots a high 262 comin for revenge, so I nose down heading north using my alt the best I can to gain speed and get some separation from the other 3 cons so maybe I can deal with the deuce without interference. The deuce is gaining and I still see dots at long vis in trail, so I continue till I've gone about 1/2 a sector. By this time the 3 cons are no factor but the deuce has closed to 1.5 and gaining, I test his commitment by starting a soft scissor to see what his reaction is, he obviously someone not to be taken for granted so I throttled back up and realized I was going paralell to a cv, so rolled toward the boat, scraped him from my 6 then picked up his 6 at approx 2.5 range. At this moment I could have relentlessly pushed his 6 and forced an unfair engagement with him. I chose instead to roll left and head paralell yet slightly going away from him, hoping he would see I was up for a clean merge. We reached the radar circle out of icon range so I turned toward him and was happy to see he had turned toward me, We had a nice jet fight that degenerated to a slow turn fight was allot of fun. Now my point after rambling on so, is if was you guys I guarantee the chnl 200 name calling and taunting would have been legendary, so did I run or did I set up a good fair fight with a rival jet? so much of your post is circumstance, so much of everyones experience in Aces High is also circumstance! So before you vet guys continue insulting the gameplay of the rest of the community, please understand the rest of the community has circumstance that has them do the very things you guys do "because of circumstance" :aok You guys may be good, but you deny thru your banter and taunts the rest of the community the learnig curve that each and everyone of you enjoyed back in the day!
[/quote]
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I joined back in the March-April time-frame of 2001. I don't doubt that I have changed as a person - when I started playing I was 23 with a huge chip on my shoulder and a bad anger problem. Now I'm 31, married with a kid on the way, great job, but more important I'm happy.
That said, the game has changed, and it isn't for the better. When I started playing, the focus of the game was on air combat. Sometime around the 2003-2004 time-frame the focus of the game moved from air combat to resetting the map - and it hasn't looked back. When I started playing, you could find two fields that were a sector or so apart and if you took off and flew to the enemy field at some point you would be met by an enemy. Again, that changed several years back - one of the most disgusting memories I have of this game is me flying to an enemy field looking for a fight, orbiting for a while with nothing, de-acking the field and LANDING ON IT, and sitting in front of the tower for 5 minutes. Nobody ever rolled.
That is more typical of game-play today.
I remember a quote from Hitech saying the base capture / map reset mechanism was an enabler for air combat. That is no longer the case. The base taking is no longer a means to an end, it is the end.
Vulching, ganging, picking? Yes, those all happened. Hell, I don't doubt that there were even some conga lines 'back in the day'. But even though I would say that air combat "purists" were always a minority in the game, that point of view is pretty much extinct in AH today.
Quoted for the absolute Truth
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Its is incomprehensible to me that people are much interested in anything other than killing a manned machine. When you blow up a building, ain't no one at home throwing their joystick across the room in frustration. That sucks!
All in all, looking at feelthy pictures on the Web is alot more fun than taking down a town, and pissing on an electric fence is more fun than de-acking a base. The only experience in this game worth $15 bucks a month is inflicting low-down dirty aerial murder on the other poor SOB and getting away to laugh about it.
That said, if you fly something that is both slow and hyper maneuverable relative the rest of the plane set, you can expect to sometimes have trouble finding fights. If you fly an airplane with the opposite attributes, you can almost always find somebody willing to fight, or run 'em down and force 'em to fight if they ain't.
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Its is incomprehensible to me that people are much interested in anything other than killing a manned machine.
For the same reason you get a kick out of titanic hollywood explosions and gigantic landscape mayhem in special effects, and not solely character development or interactions.
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IMHO, as others have mentioned, it all comes down to the size of the maps and the division of the MA. On the smaller maps, the hordelings have nowhere to hide. There's fewer bases so it's harder to noe-take them. On the huge maps, most do not care if their country loses 10 or 12 bases, they have a hundred more. On the smaller maps since bases are fewer, they have more value and are more likely to be defended. Also obvisouly, the hordeling mega squads can't go to some obscure corner of the map, with the cooked up excuse that they are helping their team, and roll undefended bases.
I also believe that it is the bigger maps and dividing of the MA that has contributed to the overall decline in skill of the average stick. Newer players feel they can succeed in the safety of the horde and they never develop their skills. Heck, some of the long time players in the mega squads can't put up a decent fight. Combine the LW Ma's, bring in smaller maps, and let the bloodbath commence. In time, you will see a spike in the skill level of the average Joe, IMHO.
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IMHO, as others have mentioned, it all comes down to the size of the maps and the division of the MA. On the smaller maps, the hordelings have nowhere to hide. There's fewer bases so it's harder to noe-take them. On the huge maps, most do not care if their country loses 10 or 12 bases, they have a hundred more. On the smaller maps since bases are fewer, they have more value and are more likely to be defended. Also obvisouly, the hordeling mega squads can't go to some obscure corner of the map, with the cooked up excuse that they are helping their team, and roll undefended bases.
I also believe that it is the bigger maps and dividing of the MA that has contributed to the overall decline in skill of the average stick. Newer players feel they can succeed in the safety of the horde and they never develop their skills. Heck, some of the long time players in the mega squads can't put up a decent fight. Combine the LW Ma's, bring in smaller maps, and let the bloodbath commence. In time, you will see a spike in the skill level of the average Joe, IMHO.
Seconded.
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I also believe that it is the bigger maps and dividing of the MA that has contributed to the overall decline in skill of the average stick. Newer players feel they can succeed in the safety of the horde and they never develop their skills. Heck, some of the long time players in the mega squads can't put up a decent fight. Combine the LW Ma's, bring in smaller maps, and let the bloodbath commence. In time, you will see a spike in the skill level of the average Joe, IMHO.
1000 people on a small map does not work. You are really arguing against yourself. On one hand you say you do not like larger maps, Larger maps were created because of how large the arena population was becoming. 2nd you you argue that you want everyone in one arena, but then complain about the "horde" because of safety in numbers. Well more people in one arena makes more numbers. So it sounds to me like you are grasping at straws trying to find a justification for your wanting to go back to 1 arena.
HiTech
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Anyway as to the initial question of this thread, I say--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->ROSE COLORED GLASSES!< :aok
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I don't know about you Steve, but Titanic Tuesday is rarely enjoyable to me because the radar on the clipboard map goes on vacation, vox goes out, I run into the 32 plane limit, etc.
Small maps with split arenas sounds like a good compromise. I love the terrain on the re-released Trinity map, but it's one of the worst maps for finding a consistent fight. Last night in orange, prime-time:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3468/3349462086_88a7b86f5f_o.png)
So far as I can see the one fight on the whole map is between bish and rooks. There were 400 people in the arena. Our squad is flying knight this tour and so we were out of luck. Two of us ended up going to the DA to duke it out because of the lack of action.
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Anyway as to the initial question of this thread, I say--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->ROSE COLORED GLASSES!< :aok
Actually you need to look no farther then your own stats to see how the game has changed.
Feb 09 you have just under 600 kills with 80%+ in either the K4 or perk planes (mostly 262). If we go back just 2 years to tour 85 (Feb 07) while you still use the tempest and other rides to skew the #'s we have a % of hops in the ki-84 109F4 and various jugs. go back another year and we see a lot of the nikki and ki-84 with a sprinkling of zekes and other mid eny rides. go back to 2005 and your mostly an la-7 driver.
So we can see over 4 years the progression from what most would call an "easy mode" ride to a progressing furballer to more of an e fighter and now really full circle. None of this is meant as any type of attack at all, just an look at the observable stats we have. Now without question your both responding to changes in how you perceive the game...and how you perceive the game being played (2 different things in my mind)...but no question we see huge variations in plane use...all away from an air combat mode and more to an exploitive air superiority mode. To me this is a microcosm of game play at large with many seasoned sticks following the same path. Personally I think that any use of a perk plane should void all scoring for the tour or the score criteria should change....
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1000 people on a small map does not work. You are really arguing against yourself. On one hand you say you do not like larger maps, Larger maps were created because of how large the arena population was becoming. 2nd you you argue that you want everyone in one arena, but then complain about the "horde" because of safety in numbers. Well more people in one arena makes more numbers. So it sounds to me like you are grasping at straws trying to find a justification for your wanting to go back to 1 arena.
HiTech
I agree with you that 1,000 people in a single arena does not work and the current setup is the result of both the need to change game mechanics and, frankly speaking, community demands, to which HTC listened.
So, in effect, you can say that some members of the community are, in fact, against what they wanted previously.
That said, Im reading Sun's post a little differently. In my mind, I dont have an issue with splitting arenas; I actually like the ability to leave one if a decent fight cant be found.
By the same token, however, I will state that the smaller maps always offer more fun, for me at least. The best furballs seem to manifest themselves between two fields within close proximity to each other.
What if we kept two late war main arenas and tried introducing smaller, or medium-sized maps into the rotation, more consistently?
The larger maps, although theoretically better suited to a larger number of players, always have a lot of wasted space.
At the end of the day, youre really only going to have 3 fights; Rook v. Bish, Bish v. Knight and Knight v Rook. A single front, by and large, with perhaps some ancillary NOEing on the fringe.
With that in mind, why not go back to condensing the whole thing to make those fronts more readily accessible?
I guess, in a summarized version, Im suggesting that the community demands for larger maps were short-sighted. Larger maps represented one step forward and two steps back.
Has HTC considered reversing the decision?
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1000 people on a small map does not work. You are really arguing against yourself. On one hand you say you do not like larger maps, Larger maps were created because of how large the arena population was becoming. 2nd you you argue that you want everyone in one arena, but then complain about the "horde" because of safety in numbers. Well more people in one arena makes more numbers. So it sounds to me like you are grasping at straws trying to find a justification for your wanting to go back to 1 arena.
HiTech
Personally, when I refer to the "hordes", I am referring to the people who form up into large gaggles of people and go attack undefended fields while one of their fields is simultanously being swarmed. Smaller maps would in my opinion lead to more defending instead of playing musical fields, as there are fewer empty areas for swarms to move around in. I think that the people who were originally arguing for larger maps were doing so because the maps were getting too crowded - i.e. it wasn't possible to swarm down field after field while the enemy swarm did the same to yours.
If you have two gaggles of people from two different countries flying around in between two bases, I would tend to refer to that as a fight, which is what I am looking for.
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For the same reason you get a kick out of titanic hollywood explosions and gigantic landscape mayhem in special effects, and not solely character development or interactions.
So toolshedders love chick flicks? Makes perfect sense, always whining about bullies and their feelings and how the only meaningful thing in game is their interactions on squad channel. Might as well be an episode of sex and the city without the sex or the tits. Sounds like an estrogen problem.
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Actually you need to look no farther then your own stats to see how the game has changed.
Feb 09 you have just under 600 kills with 80%+ in either the K4 or perk planes (mostly 262). If we go back just 2 years to tour 85 (Feb 07) while you still use the tempest and other rides to skew the #'s we have a % of hops in the ki-84 109F4 and various jugs. go back another year and we see a lot of the nikki and ki-84 with a sprinkling of zekes and other mid eny rides. go back to 2005 and your mostly an la-7 driver.
So we can see over 4 years the progression from what most would call an "easy mode" ride to a progressing furballer to more of an e fighter and now really full circle. None of this is meant as any type of attack at all, just an look at the observable stats we have. Now without question your both responding to changes in how you perceive the game...and how you perceive the game being played (2 different things in my mind)...but no question we see huge variations in plane use...all away from an air combat mode and more to an exploitive air superiority mode. To me this is a microcosm of game play at large with many seasoned sticks following the same path. Personally I think that any use of a perk plane should void all scoring for the tour or the score criteria should change....
Are you implying that score is what I'm after ? Cause I had my go at score awhile back and found it to be faaaar to much maitenance and day to day attention for a sane person to want to do.
Now to address you offhanded attempt at labeling me as an UBER only game player. You are correct I've been flying the deuce allot lately, I've also lost about 6,000 perks inside of about 6 weeks in it. So my point is I routinely put the deuce in very risky situations! You have to apear as a tasty target to be successful in it! Anyone who has been around whem I'm workin the deuce knows 1st hand that I put it in very tempting situations and am usually out #d, do I try to maintain my advantage ? ofcourse I do as anyone else does do I average 7-8 kills in the deuce, mostly fighters? yes I do. So because I'm choosing the deuce at this time of my gaming experience, does not mean I don't get in there and mix it up. If your intent is to show that, because I fly the "uber deuce" that I am timid at best, maybe how you fly the deuce is more a reflection on how you percieve deuce drivers as being timid or just pickers! Also I never give up a possible fight with another jet, I will extend from the horde to do so, but never shun from it, as it is possibly the most fun fight one can have in the game!
Your assurtion that I "scew" the numbers is BS, as I have no control whether I fly the deuce in fighter mode or attack mode as you are aware!
You know, some could come to the conclusion that the main reason you fly A20s and SBDs is that it feeds your personal narcisist feelings of--> "oh look at what I can do with an inferior ride", while using the advantage of F3 view! I am also one of the bish that routinely ups at capped bases to defend it, something very few have the stomach for even some vets!You may like most to believe your post is not an attack, but it clearly is a troll directed at me! So please don't beat around the bush, just say what's on your mind :aok :salute
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Personally I think that any use of a perk plane should void all scoring for the tour or the score criteria should change....
I thought you could care less about score? If this is true, why does it matter ? :huh
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Its is incomprehensible to me that people are much interested in anything other than killing a manned machine. When you blow up a building, ain't no one at home throwing their joystick across the room in frustration. That sucks!
Not true, sir! Kill one enemy and one enemy curses and throws his joystick. Sneak around to pork troops at the base the horde was hoping to use to take your base (preferably right after your buddy killed their goon) and twenty enemies curse and throw their joysticks! :devil
But in general, yeah, I understand what you mean. There's not much point to an online multiplayer game if you aren't taking on human opponents.
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I don't think most of the complaints are about numbers per se. 3v3 and 50v50 furballs are both acceptable to most.
When you take what people and remove the elitist sillyness and "back in the good old days" rhetoric, the valid complaint you are left with involves those times in the MA when one can seemingly take their choice of being one of 3 fighting 20, or can choose to go to the other side of the map and be one of 20 fighting 3. Granted, the complainers are exaggerating, it is not like this ALL of the time, but it does happen.
1000 people on a small map does not work. You are really arguing against yourself. On one hand you say you do not like larger maps, Larger maps were created because of how large the arena population was becoming. 2nd you you argue that you want everyone in one arena, but then complain about the "horde" because of safety in numbers. Well more people in one arena makes more numbers. So it sounds to me like you are grasping at straws trying to find a justification for your wanting to go back to 1 arena.
HiTech
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When some planes are clearly more effective than others, people will choose those planes more often. The speed to force or refuse engagements is clearly desirable. You can't fault people for making those choices IMO, though one might laud someone for choosing something more challenging.
A recurrent theme I see in complaints about the MA is runners. Always I wonder why the complainers do not choose a faster plane so they can force the issue.
Actually you need to look no farther then your own stats to see how the game has changed.
Feb 09 you have just under 600 kills with 80%+ in either the K4 or perk planes (mostly 262). If we go back just 2 years to tour 85 (Feb 07) while you still use the tempest and other rides to skew the #'s we have a % of hops in the ki-84 109F4 and various jugs. go back another year and we see a lot of the nikki and ki-84 with a sprinkling of zekes and other mid eny rides. go back to 2005 and your mostly an la-7 driver.
So we can see over 4 years the progression from what most would call an "easy mode" ride to a progressing furballer to more of an e fighter and now really full circle. None of this is meant as any type of attack at all, just an look at the observable stats we have. Now without question your both responding to changes in how you perceive the game...and how you perceive the game being played (2 different things in my mind)...but no question we see huge variations in plane use...all away from an air combat mode and more to an exploitive air superiority mode. To me this is a microcosm of game play at large with many seasoned sticks following the same path. Personally I think that any use of a perk plane should void all scoring for the tour or the score criteria should change....
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I thought you could care less about score? If this is true, why does it matter ? :huh
I don't, but I feel that "score" greatly impacts the game overall.
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I don't, but I feel that "score" greatly impacts the game overall.
CC I get your point, although I would say the majority of players could care less about score. All you have to do is look at the score pages and see who is there month in and month out, it is clearly the minority! :salute
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1000 people on a small map does not work. You are really arguing against yourself. On one hand you say you do not like larger maps, Larger maps were created because of how large the arena population was becoming. 2nd you you argue that you want everyone in one arena, but then complain about the "horde" because of safety in numbers. Well more people in one arena makes more numbers. So it sounds to me like you are grasping at straws trying to find a justification for your wanting to go back to 1 arena.
HiTech
Nope, I didn't complain about the horde. I complained about the horde hiding in some corner of the map, taking undefended bases. On a smaller map, as I have already said, there is nowhere for these megasquad-toolshedder-noe-fight skirters to hide. Do I want 1 late war arena? Heck yes. Am I saying I know better than you what is best for the community? heck no. Just voicing my ideas.
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A recurrent theme I see in complaints about the MA is runners. Always I wonder why the complainers do not choose a faster plane so they can force the issue.
Well, the ancillary issue is that getting caught running from a fight used to be embarrassing for the player in question. Today, there are plenty of people who think its "smart" flying. Each to his own.
In any event, the primary issue is that, although forcing engagements based upon speed and acceleration is obviously a solution to catching the players who wont fight, that limits your hanger options to 1944+ aircraft.
Personally, I love the 109F4. Unfortunately, I dont really fly it anymore. It simply isnt fast enough to force a fight.
The only way I can get a con comfortable enough to engage the F, frankly speaking, is to up at a nearly-vulched field and fly around at 50ft AGL. Even then, you've got about six seconds to close the deal before almost every aircraft in the set can accelerate out of gun range.
The only real reason I fly the K, instead, is because I know there arent many planes it cant force to fight. Its just not my first choice and thats the limiting factor.
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Personally, I love the 109F4. Unfortunately, I dont really fly it anymore. It simply isnt fast enough to force a fight.
Hm. I have seen frequent requests lateley to remove all EW & MW planes from LW anyway...
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A lot of cases the game is harder.
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Hm. I have seen frequent requests lateley to remove all EW & MW planes from LW anyway...
How boring.
ack-ack
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Hm. I have seen frequent requests lateley to remove all EW & MW planes from LW anyway...
Those players should remove themselves form the game then. The Arena setups, planes aren't the problem, it's the players.
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I don't, but I feel that "score" greatly impacts the game overall.
I agree.. 2 things I'd personally like to see removed..
1) The top score farmers on the home page each tour..
2) XXXXX Player landed X Kills in a XXXX to everyone in the arena. (maybe show it only to your squadies or something.. I think the 'attaboys' are getting out of hand overall)
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Nope, I didn't complain about the horde. I complained about the horde hiding in some corner of the map, taking undefended bases. On a smaller map, as I have already said, there is nowhere for these megasquad-toolshedder-noe-fight skirters to hide. Do I want 1 late war arena? Heck yes. Am I saying I know better than you what is best for the community? heck no. Just voicing my ideas.
I was in orange last night with the trinity map. The typical fight was going on at A1, but the rook "horde" was rolling up the east coast. The fights over there were very lopsided as the bish had there hands full at A1 and some fights up north against the knights. A mission was put up to take 222 or some other base in the NE from the bish. They hit 20 guys are were still calling for more !!! The mission had spots for 70 guys !!!! This is whats wrong with the people in this game. Mean while rooks are in a stalemate with the knights in the west. Tried joining that fight but nobody like to fight, kept dragging us to all their alt friends. A1 was a furball, and we have the "horde" looking for more people to take one base :rolleyes:
I went to blue, a small map, and with fights on all fronts....seeing there are all nice and close together.. I had a lot of fun dieing and killing. No place to hide was good for fights, but so was having another arena to switch to.
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I believe there are circumstances in which it is perfectly reasonable to use a speed advantage to disengage. If ,as a community, we ever seriously decided that disengaging is always verboten, the plane variety would become more monotonous than it is now. Basically only craft with light wingloadings would be used. The A6M and Hurri would be dominant, with a few folks savvy in E fighting running around in Spits, G2s, and Ki-84s. Many "planes of fame" would be utter hangar queens. Desirable? Its all a matter of opinion I suppose.
Specifically Saurd, you mention not being able to catch anything in the 109F4. With all due respect, this is the sort of complaint I see as whiny and hypocritical. I will explain why. The 109F4 is a very good turning bird with a decent climb rate. It can turn with a smaller turn radius than a late-model Spit. Most planes that enjoy a top speed advantage over a 109F4 are inferior in angles fighting. If you are going to fly this bird, you should realize that the price you pay for having an advantage over most things in a turn fight is that you must use strategy to force them into said turnfight...just as the guy in a P-51 must choose the right circumstances, use his energy well, and force you to make a mistake to stand a prayer of getting a shot in on your nimble little Fritz. What is so "horrible" about MA conditions forcing you to fly a Kurt instead of a Fritz? The only downside I can think of is that the Kurt doesn't turn as sweetly and can't simply saddle up on nearly everything it meets as well as the Fritz can. Don't you think its abit much to want to fly around in a light little kite that maneuvers extremely well, and then expect those in far less maneuverable but faster fighters to willing fight you in a way that gives you a huge advantage?
Note: I'm not saying I haven't seen circumstances where I thought another pilot was being absurdly timid. A P-51 running from your 109 F-4...possibly reasonable. A P-51 running away from my 190 A-5... :rolleyes: But ultimately their lack of savvy and aggression costs them, not me.
Well, the ancillary issue is that getting caught running from a fight used to be embarrassing for the player in question. Today, there are plenty of people who think its "smart" flying. Each to his own.
In any event, the primary issue is that, although forcing engagements based upon speed and acceleration is obviously a solution to catching the players who wont fight, that limits your hanger options to 1944+ aircraft.
Personally, I love the 109F4. Unfortunately, I dont really fly it anymore. It simply isnt fast enough to force a fight.
The only way I can get a con comfortable enough to engage the F, frankly speaking, is to up at a nearly-vulched field and fly around at 50ft AGL. Even then, you've got about six seconds to close the deal before almost every aircraft in the set can accelerate out of gun range.
The only real reason I fly the K, instead, is because I know there arent many planes it cant force to fight. Its just not my first choice and thats the limiting factor.
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I went to blue, a small map, and with fights on all fronts....
I flew like crap in Blue last night. :(
Specifically Saurd, you mention not being able to catch anything in the 109F4. With all due respect, this is the sort of complaint I see as whiny and hypocritical. I will explain why. The 109F4 is a very good turning bird with a decent climb rate. It can turn with a smaller turn radius than a late-model Spit. Most planes that enjoy a top speed advantage over a 109F4 are inferior in angles fighting. If you are going to fly this bird, you should realize that the price you pay for having an advantage over most things in a turn fight is that you must use strategy to force them into said turnfight...just as the guy in a P-51 must choose the right circumstances, use his energy well, and force you to make a mistake to stand a prayer of getting a shot in on your nimble little Fritz.
Im not sure why you think its whiny or hypocritical. There is a lot more to ACM than turn radius and top speed. You know this. Winding up in a situation where you must rely either one of those two, exclusively, to survive probably means you did something wrong.
There are plenty of ways to kill a smaller, more nimble plane than extending for a sector at a time just as there are plenty of ways to kill a faster, less nimble plane than yanking back on the stick.
What is so "horrible" about MA conditions forcing you to fly a Kurt instead of a Fritz? The only downside I can think of is that the Kurt doesn't turn as sweetly and can't simply saddle up on nearly everything it meets as well as the Fritz can.
I dont think I used the word horrible, but I do think I explained my rationale. By all accounts, the K is the better aircraft. I have a personal affection for the F. And, as stated, MA conditions today make the F uncompetitive.
Don't you think its abit much to want to fly around in a light little kite that maneuvers extremely well, and then expect those in far less maneuverable but faster fighters to willing fight you in a way that gives you a huge advantage?
I dont think its a bit much for players to log in and want to fight, regardless of circumstances. However, we seem to be having two different discussions. Youre envisioning an AC using its strengths to its advantage. Nothing wrong with that.
Im envisioning this scenario:
Engage bad guy. Bad guy runs. You follow. Bad guy keeps running. You get bored and turn away. Bad guy turns to get behind you after you disengage. Reversal. Bad guy runs. You follow. Bad guy keeps running. You get bored and turn away. Bad guy turns to get behind you. Reversal. Bad guy runs. You follow. Bad guy keeps running. You get bored and turn away. Bad guy turns to get behind you after you disengage. Reversal. Bad guy runs. You follow. Bad guy keeps running. You get bored and turn away. Bad guy turns to get behind you. Reversal. Bad guy runs. You follow. Bad guy keeps running. You get bored and turn away. Bad guy turns to get behind you after you disengage. Reversal. Bad guy runs. You follow. Bad guy keeps running. You get bored and turn away. Bad guy turns to get behind you. Reversal. Bad guy runs. You follow. Bad guy keeps running. You get bored and turn away. Bad guy turns to get behind you after you disengage. Reversal. Bad guy runs. You follow. Bad guy keeps running. You get bored and turn away. Bad guy turns to get behind you. Reversal.
Rinse.
Repeat.
Etcetera.
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Hm. I have seen frequent requests lateley to remove all EW & MW planes from LW anyway...
Why? Sometimes it's an insidious pleasure to bring a Hurricane Mk1 to a furball and tear up the uber-rides.
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only way to get more people spread evenly between the EW/MW/LW arenas and drop the arena caps IMO,
late war, isnt late war, it is the old Main arena with a cap. I'd think as a whole people would prefer the mid war planeset and drift there. Resulting in better fights/ gameplay without the uber fast planes.
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only way to get more people spread evenly between the EW/MW/LW arenas and drop the arena caps IMO,
late war, isnt late war, it is the old Main arena with a cap. I'd think as a whole people would prefer the mid war planeset and drift there. Resulting in better fights/ gameplay without the uber fast planes.
How would dropping the caps get more people into MW and EW? All that would do is fill one big LW. We already know thats "bad" and isn't going to happen.
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I think he meant the only way to spread the population out more evenly would be to take the pre-1944 planes out of the "LW"MA and simply formalize the arrangement already in place. Instead of a EW, MW (+EW planes), and LW (all planes), you have an EW (1939-1941), MW (1941-1943) and LW (1944-1945). He suspects most people would gravitate towards the MW arena if such an arrangement were in place.
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I think he meant the only way to spread the population out more evenly would be to take the pre-1944 planes out of the "LW"MA and simply formalize the arrangement already in place. Instead of a EW, MW (+EW planes), and LW (all planes), you have an EW (1939-1941), MW (1941-1943) and LW (1944-1945). He suspects most people would gravitate towards the MW arena if such an arrangement were in place.
While that may be the case, the whining would be deafening.
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I wouldn't like to lose the option to fly crappy planes against the rest of the LW planeset. I think a lot of players would feel the same.
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I wouldn't like to lose the option to fly crappy planes against the rest of the LW planeset. I think a lot of players would feel the same.
Agreed.
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I think he meant the only way to spread the population out more evenly would be to take the pre-1944 planes out of the "LW"MA and simply formalize the arrangement already in place. Instead of a EW, MW (+EW planes), and LW (all planes), you have an EW (1939-1941), MW (1941-1943) and LW (1944-1945). He suspects most people would gravitate towards the MW arena if such an arrangement were in place.
You would need to flesh out the Early and Mid-war plane sets further for those types of arenas. Currently, our early war plane set is anything but early war. Mid-war plane set is in a little better shape but still needs planes to further flesh it out.
ack-ack
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I wouldn't like to lose the option to fly crappy planes against the rest of the LW planeset. I think a lot of players would feel the same.
well hitech did have it this way for about a day after the arena split, the whining was deafening enough to re-enable all planes in the LW again thus making it the same old MA again.
I enjoy owning people in early war rides just as much as the next guy but IMO it killed EW and MW as popular arenas before they had a chance as everyone DID gravitate with the numbers.
why bother with the other themed arenas if you can just do it with everyone else. If more planes get added i think having another go at it will be worthwhile rather than every new plane becoming a hangar queen in the LWMA.
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Actually, in a Co-E 1v1 situation, turn performance and energy performance are more or less the decisive factors. The plane with a signifigantly worse turning performance must assume his opponent is competent (to assume otherwise means that someday you will find yourself sent back to the tower in about 1.5 seconds), thus he must have the E to engage using E tactics, or build it. And the latter isn't likely to happen if the more nimble bandit also builds E as well or better than less nimble one.
Frankly making use of turn performance with angles fighting is by far the easier, more intuitive, and often more fun strategy than E fighting, IF your opposition allows you to do so. That is why I find a HurriIIc a lark to fly sometimes, and no doubt a large portion of the reason you find an F4 more fun than a K4. You won't catch me complaining when lesser turners run away from my Hurri though. So sorry, IMHO you're still asking for too much if you put yourself 600 back on a P-51D in your Fritz and then expect him not to extend if he can manage it.
On the other hand, I do agree that the bandit who simply runs to the horizon AND then wastes your time and pins you in one location ad nauseum by re-engaging when you turn to head for greener pastures is asinine. I myself, if I found someone successfully reversed my best effort and forced me to run two or three times in a 1v1 situation, would either just go look for someone easier to kill (most of my kills in fast, b'n'z type planes are other b'n'z planes) or, as is so often the case, push the situation so hard trying to get the kill that I screw up and get shot down.
There is a lot more to ACM than turn radius and top speed. You know this. Winding up in a situation where you must rely either one of those two, exclusively, to survive probably means you did something wrong.
There are plenty of ways to kill a smaller, more nimble plane than extending for a sector at a time just as there are plenty of ways to kill a faster, less nimble plane than yanking back on the stick.
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So there's enough players on both sides (pure LW, and as we have it now) that the only way to do it would be to have one new arena added, with a pure LW planeset.
well hitech did have it this way for about a day after the arena split, the whining was deafening enough to re-enable all planes in the LW again thus making it the same old MA again.
I enjoy owning people in early war rides just as much as the next guy but IMO it killed EW and MW as popular arenas before they had a chance as everyone DID gravitate with the numbers.
why bother with the other themed arenas if you can just do it with everyone else. If more planes get added i think having another go at it will be worthwhile rather than every new plane becoming a hangar queen in the LWMA.
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if they did that moot it will be empty just as much as EW/MW :) bar a couple of milkers,
Most people want the MA with all rides available that is FACT. The cap just annoys everyone.
The idea of having time specific planesets without any player caps would be interesting to see IMO.
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Most people want the MA with all rides available that is FACT. The cap just annoys everyone.
Yup. Get rid of the cap by having one LW arena.
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well hitech did have it this way for about a day after the arena split, the whining was deafening enough to re-enable all planes in the LW again thus making it the same old MA again.
I enjoy owning people in early war rides just as much as the next guy but IMO it killed EW and MW as popular arenas before they had a chance as everyone DID gravitate with the numbers.
Yup. Only error I saw with the arena split was giving in to the people who wanted all rides in one arena. Made the MW and EW almost meaningless.
- oldman
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The Good Ol' Days . . .
For most folks, the good ol' days are whenever they really started getting into the game. A newer player's good ol' days are today; and five years from now, he'll be the one talking about how everything used to be better.
It's life's natural progression, as we move toward being the old guy yelling at kids to stay off his lawn.
But I can tell you that it was exactly the same two decades ago in Air Warrior, with nearly exactly the same discussions.
Air Warrior started (in 1987 or so) on GEnie and on Macs, Amigas, and Atari ST's. When the PC version came out in 1990 or so, the seasoned vets lamented the passing of the good ol' days as hordes of ham-fisted, ho-and-run PC dweebs flooded in and ruined the game forever.
Of course, for those PC dweebs, that was the golden age. They learned and progressed, and in 1995 or so when Air Warrior became available on AOL, the now-seasoned PC vets lamented the passing of the good ol' days as hordes of ham-fisted, ho-and-run AOL dweebs flooded in and ruined the game forever.
For those AOL dweebs, that was the golden age. They learned and progressed, and on December 7th, 2001 (60th anniversary of Pearl), when Electronic Arts discontinued Air Warrior, the now-seasoned AOL vets (along with others from previous periods) lamented the passing of the good ol' days (this time, at least for AW, for real).
But a lot of them moved on to Aces High, where naturally people go through the same cycles.
Me, I've been playing since 1988. I miss pals who drifted away from online flying, and I do look back at my early days with nostalgia -- as people tend to do. I see the unavoidable fluctuations that cause people for a bit to enjoy things more or less. But I can tell you, from my perspective of time, not focusing on fluctuations but instead on the overall trend, I feel that Aces High is magnificent and getting even better over time.
The good ol' days? They are always today! :)
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Yup. Only error I saw with the arena split was giving in to the people who wanted all rides in one arena. Made the MW and EW almost meaningless.
I strongly disagree.
It's part of the fun for seasoned players to fly highy "outclassed" fighters in the face of latewar opposition. Many players that take a Hurri I or 109E into the skies are not doing it for the love of that particular model alone, but because it's also a challenge doing it in LW.
If you disable EW planes in LW, you still won't see EW arena getting "back to glory".
For example, Sardaukar/Mazz stated
Personally, I love the 109F4. Unfortunately, I dont really fly it anymore. It simply isnt fast enough to force a fight.
Now, that should be a reason to fly it in EW instead? No. Must be other reasons than pure plane availability then that keeps him and other potentially interested players away from EW.
BTW, most ironically it was the splitting of the score that gave the EW arena the final final death blow...
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Now, with that out of the way, another piece of ancient history that folks might enjoy -- a story of Genesis. :)
http://www.vulch.clara.co.uk/genesis.html
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Some good ol' days for folks. Ah, the memories this brings back. But Aces High is, rounding off to the nearest digit, infinity better. :)
(http://tagn.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/pacifictheater.png)
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I strongly disagree.
It's part of the fun for seasoned players to fly highy "outclassed" fighters in the face of latewar opposition. Many players that take a Hurri I or 109E into the skies are not doing it for the love of that particular model alone, but because it's also a challenge doing it in LW.
Perfectly true, but inconsistent with a plan to split arenas based on time frames. You end up with what we now have - multiple (well...two) arenas with all planes enabled, and two forgotten arenas based on chronology. (Parenthetically, seasoned players will always be able to find a handicap plane within any time frame.)
If you disable EW planes in LW, you still won't see EW arena getting "back to glory".
For example, Sardaukar/Mazz stated......Now, that should be a reason to fly it in EW instead? No. Must be other reasons than pure plane availability then that keeps him and other potentially interested players away from EW.
We'll never know, will we? How long did HTC limit aircraft to their time-appropriate arenas? Couldn't have been more than a few weeks, if it was that long.
BTW, most ironically it was the splitting of the score that gave the EW arena the final final death blow...
Because you can fly the Hurri I (or whatever) in any arena, there's no incentive to go to EW to fly it. The EW was fatally wounded long before the score split was implemented.
- oldman
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I don't think anything will be accomplished by taking planes out of the LW set.
What of planes that first saw action in EW but also were historically used in MW, the same for MW planes in LW?
Would you take the P-40 or HurriIIC out of Midwar, the SpitIX, P-38J, and Hellcat out of late war? Etc and so forth?
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Its all about the players and how they play the game. EW was only good the first week or so after the arena splits, because most people were to stupid to realize that you now had to choose an arena, the rest just went there due to the numbers. There was some good fun flying in the first week or so.
Then the masses caught on and found the LW arena and that was it for both the EW and MW. Most people don't know how to fly, how to fight so they need the uber ride to compensate for their lack of skill. The rest just go there because that is where the targets are.
EW, MW, AvA will NEVER become popular until people learn how to fly and fight. In the good old days THAT is what drew people to these games. The chance to fly and fight against a real opponent, not some computer AI. Todays players are too much into the "quake" style fighting of just throwing a ton of resources at a target over and over again until its dead, no skills needed.
The "good old days" were much better because people fought, tried to get better. In the good old days when someone yelled out "watch out JBKID is at A3, he just shot me down." We use to go looking for him. He was always one of the top guys, and going against him was a way to measure how good you were. Today, if someone mentions so and so is at such and such the fights disappear. Most don't want to fight because they KNOW that can't, They don't take the time to try and get better because they are too busy running in the horde, taking undefended bases.
Todays player is too busy chasing "leroy jenkins" across the terrain to notice they are missing out on the better part of the game. :(
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Rolling Plane Set!!! :devil.
<----ducks and runs.
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Its hard for me to believe that the basic "character" of the average player is much worse. I'm guessing most players are like me and always have been...They want to do some of that "pilot %@%@" for their kills, they want a little sport..., 5v1s and blasting helpless planes off the runway all the time won't do it for them. Of course, like me, they probably don't want it *so* sporty that it ends with "___ has shot you down" instead of "You have shot down ____", except owing to the occasional lapse of judgment on my part. (I like hunting wild hogs...sometimes I eat the hog, sometimes the hog gets away, so far no hog has come close to eating me though, and that is precisely the way I like the situation...same goes for AH) :devil
Nah, I think the only wrench in the gears is too many people getting the idea that the "win the war" thing is the point of the whole game. So they aren't even hunters anymore, they are a demolition crew. Sorry...that's work, I've been paid to take down structures before and I must insist on compensation of least $15/hour if anyone wants me to spend any large portion of my playtime doing it.
The thing to do is to gently remind players that the best part of the game is the all-day warm inner glow that comes from murdering a few poor gomers in the air, then sitting down to fine meal and musing to yourself on the fond recollection of how that bandit looked in the instant you blew him to pieces.
Its all about the players and how they play the game. EW was only good the first week or so after the arena splits, because most people were to stupid to realize that you now had to choose an arena, the rest just went there due to the numbers. There was some good fun flying in the first week or so.
Then the masses caught on and found the LW arena and that was it for both the EW and MW. Most people don't know how to fly, how to fight so they need the uber ride to compensate for their lack of skill. The rest just go there because that is where the targets are.
EW, MW, AvA will NEVER become popular until people learn how to fly and fight. In the good old days THAT is what drew people to these games. The chance to fly and fight against a real opponent, not some computer AI. Todays players are too much into the "quake" style fighting of just throwing a ton of resources at a target over and over again until its dead, no skills needed.
The "good old days" were much better because people fought, tried to get better. In the good old days when someone yelled out "watch out JBKID is at A3, he just shot me down." We use to go looking for him. He was always one of the top guys, and going against him was a way to measure how good you were. Today, if someone mentions so and so is at such and such the fights disappear. Most don't want to fight because they KNOW that can't, They don't take the time to try and get better because they are too busy running in the horde, taking undefended bases.
Todays player is too busy chasing "leroy jenkins" across the terrain to notice they are missing out on the better part of the game. :(
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The basic character is definitely worse. It's really not hard at all to see how a small niche of purists vs that same group (if we assume it didn't shrink) diluted inside a non-purist gamer crowd.
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...........snip
Nah, I think the only wrench in the gears is too many people getting the idea that the "win the war" thing is the point of the whole game. So they aren't even hunters anymore, they are a demolition crew. Sorry...that's work, I've been paid to take down structures before and I must insist on compensation of least $15/hour if anyone wants me to spend any large portion of my playtime doing it.
Even the win the war type can fight.....
Old days..... a fight for a base could take hours to accomplish, attacking force might regroup two or three times to hit it in force.
Today......... a fight for a base is a one shot deal, over whelm the defenders with 3 and 4 to 1 numbers, or if it fails in the first 15 minutes, give up and look for another easier/undefended target.
Again, its the players, no skill to make a plan, no skill to execute a plan. Leroy moves to another base and everyone follows because no one has the skill to lead.