Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MjTalon on March 18, 2009, 10:13:52 AM
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Just wanted to start a little discussion. Out of the 190 series, which do you guys prefer? What do you tend to use your 190 for?
Since the word is out on the 56th is airborne again... I need to get my wurger back in tip top shape to shoot down some red nosers.... :devil I prefer the A5 out of the entire series, it is highly underrated ( which is good because they tend to be left with a "WTF" face after I shoot em down" ) :t As a dogfighter. It can maneuver with the best of them and when faced with a Bandit on your tail, she's a slippery one to keep in ya gunsight and with proper BFM, you'll have that red guy in front of ya within seconds. :)
How do ya fly your 190 as well? I tend to fly mines very aggressively, i love the thrill of Co E/ Co Alt fights in my 190A5, that's where it boils down to understanding your airframe vs the enemies, More times than not I'm able to Out maneuver them after the Merge or cause em to overshoot with a series of Barrel Rolls or double Split S's :D to get some spacing distance for a re-merge. I've on a couple of occasions been able to stick with Spits in energy turns which I'm sure surprised the hell out of them as well hanging verticle with some of the prop hangers in the game.
Thoughts?
Here's a couple of my 190 films, can't view them since i uninstalled AH to free up space:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/201nk3tdmxm/reversal.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/gtmzaycdd1r/GOOD190.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ntytrjmzymq/burnzsavedmyass.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/x5jzm2xgj2n/goodponyfight.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/tazgmjyjiyy/jg11 vs 367th.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/md2wmqzmzvd/inthethickofit.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/wz1md4jzzji/omg.ahf
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(http://www.pohorelec.cz/page/pic/vla/fw190.jpg)
SHHHHHHHH!! Everybody will want one!
P.S. Why aren't you in White Staffel?
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Donno Blooz,
Kommandore's Personal surprise... ;)
Shhh, no talk of personal geschwader info on the public forums, boss gets grumpy
:uhoh
:noid
Luftwaffe...
(http://www.303rdbg.com/thunderbird/realtrouble.jpg)
(http://www.toysworld.od.ua/art/Fw190.jpg)
(http://historyswingman.com/images/most_dangerous_game_by_wade_meyers_pbtu.jpg)
(http://gallery.kitmaker.net/data/20569/Ed_Fw190A8-R2_Boxtop.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2zh0by9.jpg)
Destroying a bomber formation near you... :aok
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no one else flies the 190.. :(?
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A5 for me.
Beyond being plain old fun, as you stated, its greatest strength is that a significant portion of the MA doesn't know what to expect from it.
Ive got an A5 vs. Mk VIII video that Ill post when I get home tonight. Havent watched it yet but I think it'll be good.
Its perfectly suited to a low-alt furball. Max speed increases rapidly from 1K to 5K, acceleration is comparable to many late war fighters, energy can be bleed immediately and you can claw it back quickly with an on-WEP climb rate approaching 4,000ft per minute at those alts.
The plane rewards aggressiveness and full utilization of its roll rate advantage. By contrast, it is ill suited to flying timidly against late-war fighters which hold advantages in top speed. So long as youre not short-sighted enough to turn with an opponent past about 540 degrees, after which youre toast, all is well.
Best (most fun) fights are usually against 51's and Jug's, I find.
500 rounds of 20mm (ditch the MGFF's) seals the deal. Plus, its sexy as hell. :aok
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Amen Mazz, good flying with ya a while back too sir. :)
As stated, majority of the MA population doesn't know what to expect from a A5 which is our greatest strength. It has a wonderful visibility from the cockpit which allowed you to spot bandits quite rapidly from all angles. The firepower is well suited for those with a heavy trigger finger and she's nimble enough to survive a multi plane engagement.
I tend to do alot of Displacement rolls when making passes on a single bandit since he wouldn't expect a 190 to bring it's directional facing around so fast but with the roll rate it comes naturally. 190A5s key to success is understanding E management and the basic BFM maneuvers to utilize it's roll rate to 100%.
Plus the JG11 skin by fencer is the best 190 skin in the game. Sexy as hell too. :cool:
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Amen Mazz, good flying with ya a while back too sir. :)
As stated, majority of the MA population doesn't know what to expect from a A5 which is our greatest strength. It has a wonderful visibility from the cockpit which allowed you to spot bandits quite rapidly from all angles. The firepower is well suited for those with a heavy trigger finger and she's nimble enough to survive a multi plane engagement.
I tend to do alot of Displacement rolls when making passes on a single bandit since he wouldn't expect a 190 to bring it's directional facing around so fast but with the roll rate it comes naturally. 190A5s key to success is understanding E management and the basic BFM maneuvers to utilize it's roll rate to 100%.
Plus the JG11 skin by fencer is the best 190 skin in the game. Sexy as hell too. :cool:
I prefer the JG1 and JG54 (white) skins, personally. :aok
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I prefer the JG1 and JG54 (white) skins, personally. :aok
Have you seen white 3 from bubi yet? Things Beautiful. :O
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Here are some pictures of a 190D-13 (http://www.wedge1126.dreamhosters.com/photography/fw190/) I took at the Flying Heritage Collection in Everett, WA.
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Here are some pictures of a 190D-13 (http://www.wedge1126.dreamhosters.com/photography/fw190/) I took at the Flying Heritage Collection in Everett, WA.
:eek Beautiful pictures Wedge, danke sir! :salute
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:eek Beautiful pictures Wedge, danke sir! :salute
Ive got some that were taken a couple weekends ago at the A&S offshoot in Dulles.
190F8 - Ill post em up tonight.
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Ive got some that were taken a couple weekends ago at the A&S offshoot in Dulles.
190F8 - Ill post em up tonight.
Roger, Danke mazz :).
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when I fly the 190 its usually the D9 or A5. I don't fly them as much as I used to because I've grown used the US 50S and can't seem to hit anything in the 190s anymore.
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Here are some pictures of a 190D-13 (http://www.wedge1126.dreamhosters.com/photography/fw190/) I took at the Flying Heritage Collection in Everett, WA.
*druels* nom nom nom
(awesome pictures, sexy plane, 10/10)
I wonder who's arm you'd have to twist and how many children you'd need to give them to get the museum to pop the hood and give a look at the engine.
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Roger, Danke mazz :).
Here is a link. These were taken by a friend of mine - I sent him an Email asking for permission to post the link - I assume he'll say yes. I dont seem to be able to save any of the pictures individually for rehosting.
There are about 100 total and about half of them are shots from Arlington National Cemetary. One of the guys in our group (couple pictures of him accepting an impromtu gift from a Guard) is the brother-in-law of one of the first tomb guards so we got a great, very personal tour of the barracks.
Once I hear back from him regarding linking permission Ill probably start a thread in GD or the OC for a wider audience.
Highlights - FW190, P38, Hurri IID, P-40, F4U, Arado, Enola Gay, JSF prototype, etc, etc.
Basically, this location out in Dulles, about 20 miles west of DC, is where the Smithsonian keeps a large part of its collection of aircraft that it doesnt have room to display at Air & Space in the city.
Enjoy.
http://s572.photobucket.com/albums/ss168/catseyeweb/DC%20Trip/?albumview=slideshow
EDIT: Oh, and the empty uniform on display is actually Eddie Rickenbacker's. ;)
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I like picking/vulching with the A8 4x 20mms but that's about it...
WAIT...nevermind. :D
I've seriously gotta get down and learn the 190 series a bit better, I'm less than average especially with all this time off from AH, I'm just considering canceling my account.
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I like picking/vulching with the A8 4x 20mms but that's about it...
WAIT...nevermind. :D
I've seriously gotta get down and learn the 190 series a bit better, I'm less than average especially with all this time off from AH, I'm just considering canceling my account.
she's under rated as a dogfighter truly spikes, Once you learn the basics, you'll notice a entirely different world opens up for the 190 :). I don't mind a good picking myself :P.
& Mazz, thank's for the beautiful link sir. :aok
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Yeah. I think I may try the A5 first since it's mainly a dogfighter.
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Yeah. I think I may try the A5 first since it's mainly a dogfighter.
Don't discount the A8/D9 as dogfighters neither. They are very capable. ;)
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Here are some pictures of a 190D-13 (http://www.wedge1126.dreamhosters.com/photography/fw190/) I took at the Flying Heritage Collection in Everett, WA.
The pictures u took must be the new paint job for this plane cause I found old pics of her in a older scheme. Some looks the same, but the spinner and the band by the tail is different.
(http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/Champlin_190D-12_WerkNumber.JPG)
(http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/Champlin_190D-12_RightSide.JPG)
(http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/Champlin_190D-12_AirScoop.JPG)
(http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/Champlin_190D-12_LeftRear.JPG)
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That's when it was in the museum in Mesa AZ. Was beautiful back then.
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I started flying the 190 recently because it just doesnt feel right attacking allied bombers with allied planes, and Lancs/24s/17s are pretty much all we see. Having some luck with the A8 (for the massive cannon loadout - my gunnery isnt great) :aok
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I use the A5 in most cases. Great all around plane. I have to thank CHAPPY for re-introducing it to me!
I have started using the 190F model when "visiting" enemy bases to go after ACK runners. The F model can usually absorb more hits. It seems a necessary skill to acquire, an art, to kill those that ACK run! :lol
Heck, I run to ACK too when my base is out-numbered 5 to 1.
Slade :salute
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If one wishes to consider the Ta-152 a member of the "190" family, then it is far and away the best dog-fighter with its relatively competitive turn rate and E-retention under maneuvering.
If you don't, then it has to be the Dora. I've flown both the D9 and A5 quite a bit and the Dora's far greater E-building capacity and power in the vertical more than makes up for the A5's moderate turn radius advantage.
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If one wishes to consider the Ta-152 a member of the "190" family, then it is far and away the best dog-fighter with its relatively competitive turn rate and E-retention under maneuvering.
If you don't, then it has to be the Dora. I've flown both the D9 and A5 quite a bit and the Dora's far greater E-building capacity and power in the vertical more than makes up for the A5's moderate turn radius advantage.
No doubt the Dora is a beast, but flat turn radius - which you really should not be relying on anyway at all, let alone in a 190 - is only one advantage that the A5 has. It rolls faster as well; almost ridiculously so, which is huge in a multi-con engagement. I'd say that is the biggest advantage it has over the Dora and, in a 1v1 situation, I would much rather have the A5.
In todays MA, though... tough call. Titanic Tuesday means I put away the early war birds for the evening.
The 152, however, I will confess is even more of a monster if properly used. Although a member of the 190 family, its application in the MA is totally different than the rest of its brethren, IMO.
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I don't understand nor can fly the Ta 152 at all. I've tried time and time ago but it doesn't feel like the A5 to me. And i end up dying alot of the time when i try Maneuvers that i can normally pull in the A5. :(
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I don't understand nor can fly the Ta 152 at all. I've tried time and time ago but it doesn't feel like the A5 to me. And i end up dying alot of the time when i try Maneuvers that i can normally pull in the A5. :(
Thats because its not an A5. ;)
The 152 really doesn't fly like anything else in the set. To take full advantage of it, you really need to be standing on the rudders constantly. That said, it holds E like no other.
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Don't discount the A8/D9 as dogfighters neither. They are very capable. ;)
The A8 seems like a tank when I fly it. The D9 is decent but not a great turner.
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I don't understand nor can fly the Ta 152 at all. I've tried time and time ago but it doesn't feel like the A5 to me. And i end up dying alot of the time when i try Maneuvers that i can normally pull in the A5. :(
Just curious, what kind of maneuvers are you talking about?
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The A8 seems like a tank when I fly it. The D9 is decent but not a great turner.
Spikes, look at my A8 vid in my first post. Think it's "Good P51 fight"
I had my A8 Very light, 100 Clean, 2x20mms only. She can dogfight, just have to fly it within your flight envelope.
Boozeman: My films in my first post are similar what i tried to do in a Ta with no luck. The thing is, when i fly the 152, i feel nervous, timid, no confidence. When i fly the A5 i feel as if nothing is going to shoot me down, and i fly aggressively to the limit because I know what my A5 can do and how she performs in certain situations.
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A8 :aok
30mm Gun package, full internal fuel. Pure unadulterated monster aircraft. Consistently my best K/D machine by a wide margin. It'll hang with a lot of the plane set in a dogfight, or at least a lot of the pilots in the MA's. Best of the 190's IMO.
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Pure monster till the nose is at or above the horizon. It's a ton of bricks.
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A8 :aok
30mm Gun package, full internal fuel. Pure unadulterated monster aircraft. Consistently my best K/D machine by a wide margin. It'll hang with a lot of the plane set in a dogfight, or at least a lot of the pilots in the MA's. Best of the 190's IMO.
Negative. A8 with the taters is just a big tank waiting to get shot at. Well from my views personally the ONLY way to fight in a A8 is to stick to BnZ with the 30s on, if you even ATTEMPT to try and turn that heavy bugger You'll bleed too much E... And E is to key to survival in the A8 with 30mms attached. May i suggest you try the dual 20mms only, you'll actually be able to maneuver it. :)
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Boozeman: My films in my first post are similar what i tried to do in a Ta with no luck. The thing is, when i fly the 152, i feel nervous, timid, no confidence. When i fly the A5 i feel as if nothing is going to shoot me down, and i fly aggressively to the limit because I know what my A5 can do and how she performs in certain situations.
Thats just a lack of seat time.
Talk to m00t if you want some instruction; he's probably the best cartoon 152 driver in the game.
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Thats just a lack of seat time.
Talk to m00t if you want some instruction; he's probably the best cartoon 152 driver in the game.
Oh believe me Mazz, i'm a witness :P. Me and him had a sortie as while back, out numbered against some High rook P51s, Him in a 152, me in a 110G2. Both got home with some scalps. P51s are lousy fighters once ya get em slow. :D
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I always prefered the D9.None of them realy turn well or are very agile so ill go with something that has a boat load of raw power.At least that gives me something to work with I figure.I flew it last tour for a bit and didnt do too bad.It was one of my favorite rides going back to AW.
Pipz
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I always prefered the D9.None of them realy turn well or are very agile so ill go with something that has a boat load of raw power.At least that gives me something to work with I figure.I flew it last tour for a bit and didnt do too bad.It was one of my favorite rides going back to AW.
Pipz
You should take the A5 up, 100 Clean, dual 20mms only, no MG/FF's. They're horrible. A5 can and will turn with alot of A/C. Just know your limitation and know when you're bleeding to much E and take the fight Vertical.
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Pure monster till the nose is at or above the horizon. It's a ton of bricks.
If you have enough E it goes nose up pretty well but you might need WEP. I get a lot of kills with nose high rolling reverses and rolling scissors.
Negative. A8 with the taters is just a big tank waiting to get shot at. Well from my views personally the ONLY way to fight in a A8 is to stick to BnZ with the 30s on, if you even ATTEMPT to try and turn that heavy bugger You'll bleed too much E... And E is to key to survival in the A8 with 30mms attached. May i suggest you try the dual 20mms only, you'll actually be able to maneuver it. :)
Fly it more. With E it will E fight with the best turners for at least a short while. It'll turn about 540 degrees without any real loss of E. Ive never been afraid to get into extended turn fights with Ponies, other 190's, K4's, Jugs, etc. I've been flying it this way for years and I don't stick to bore and snore. My K/D is consistantly over 10:1 in it over time. I think my next best ac is 8:1 (Jug). If I wanted dual 20's I'd take an A5 or a Dora.
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<-- Doesn't concern myself with K/D But i'll look into it. It's just from personal experience. I'm not gonna turn a A8 with wing mounted 30mms unless i know he's gonna die when i start turning. Other than that If i must i will but more times then likely i will have E to work with, making alot of Pitchbacks trying to either force a mistake on his part or stall him out just as my nose flops around.
Co alt engagements with 30mms in a A8 are scary for me. I'm more confident when I am loaded with duals. But i don't backdown from a challenge. Kill or be killed, if you shoot down a superior A/C with a inferior one then it shows that you're pilot ability is greater.
:salute
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You should take the A5 up, 100 Clean, dual 20mms only, no MG/FF's. They're horrible. A5 can and will turn with alot of A/C. Just know your limitation and know when you're bleeding to much E and take the fight Vertical.
Ive been at this stuff since 98.I have had a few flights in the A5 <G> Ya it turns ok but I would rather have a lot of power that I can exploit over the more agile aircraft.Thats just my preferance.
Pipz
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I always prefered the D9.None of them realy turn well or are very agile so ill go with something that has a boat load of raw power.At least that gives me something to work with I figure.I flew it last tour for a bit and didnt do too bad.It was one of my favorite rides going back to AW.
Pipz
The A5 knife fights great, but it's got just enough of a thrust and firepower handicap to make it less efficient, overall, than the D9. The D9 and 152 are two side of the Fw190 character at its best. An overboosted A5 with cowl guns removed would compete. It'd be worth a slight perk price.If you have enough E it goes nose up pretty well but you might need WEP. I get a lot of kills with nose high rolling reverses and rolling scissors.
. No.. All things being equal pretty much the whole planeset walks all over an A8 3/4s of the time.Co alt engagements with 30mms in a A8 are scary for me. I'm more confident when I am loaded with duals. But i don't backdown from a challenge. Kill or be killed, if you shoot down a superior A/C with a inferior one then it shows that you're pilot ability is greater.
:salute
What would be great would be an A9 with cowl guns removed and the wingroots replaced with 108s and ~100rpg
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Doppeltesposten
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I prefer the A-8 for bomber hunting, otherwise I rarely fly any of the Fw's. I used to like the old Dora, but with only 17 minutes of internal fuel the new Dora is simply too short-legged for me.
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I used to like the old Dora, but with only 17 minutes of internal fuel the new Dora is simply too short-legged for me.
Check your fuel settings in hangar. With internal fuel only, endurance is 27 minutes at takeoff. And carrying a DT does'st hurt you much either
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Check your fuel settings in hangar. With internal fuel only, endurance is 27 minutes at takeoff. And carrying a DT does'st hurt you much either
Lusche is right, the DT doesn't hurt at all. I usually up with either 1/2 or 3/4 internal plus the DT depending on distance to the fight. (if 3/4 internal, then I burn internal down to 1/2 before switching to the DT) The Dora's much less of a brick once you get below 1/2 internal and ditch the DT.
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What is the flight time of a 109G or K if a Dora only gets 27 minutes? Something must be wrong with the fuel burn rate.
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"1/2" meaning fwd + as little aft as possible. I'm pretty sure you're better off (except for speed penalty) with whatever fuel loadout gives you as little AFT as possible + a DT, as far as maneuvering is concerned. The DT is forward of even the FWD tank, iirc.
Lusche is right, the DT doesn't hurt at all. I usually up with either 1/2 or 3/4 internal plus the DT depending on distance to the fight. (if 3/4 internal, then I burn internal down to 1/2 before switching to the DT) The Dora's much less of a brick once you get below 1/2 internal and ditch the DT.
What is the flight time of a 109G or K if a Dora only gets 27 minutes? Something must be wrong with the fuel burn rate.
Burn's at 2x in the MA.
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What is the flight time of a 109G or K if a Dora only gets 27 minutes?
About the same.K-4 has 27 mins at full military power / sea level at takeoff.
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Boozeman: My films in my first post are similar what i tried to do in a Ta with no luck. The thing is, when i fly the 152, i feel nervous, timid, no confidence. When i fly the A5 i feel as if nothing is going to shoot me down, and i fly aggressively to the limit because I know what my A5 can do and how she performs in certain situations.
I watched the "goodponyfight" film. If you had been in a Ta with the proper confidence, you could have ended the fight easily by around the 5 min mark.
The thing is, with the 152 you can afford to fight in a very aggressive way, even more than with the A5. Its more docile and offers (much) better performance in most disciplines. Just get really familiar with it. The results will be impressive.
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You should take the A5 up, 100 Clean, dual 20mms only, no MG/FF's. They're horrible. A5 can and will turn with alot of A/C. Just know your limitation and know when you're bleeding to much E and take the fight Vertical.
MG/FFs with full clip increase the gross weight of the A5 by about 2% at 25% fuel load out. They suck, but 60 extra rocks are 60 extra rocks.
A5 turns a little worse than the P-51D and the P-51D turns worse than practically everything else.
An A5 in late-war is probably the single best plane to take if you find the game insufficiently challenging, seeing as how it is inferior in both angles and energy tactics to most. Much more so than with the vaunted P-40/SpitI/HurriI/ "challenge" planes which can at least own many members of the LW set in an angles fight.
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An overboosted A5 with cowl guns removed would compete. It'd be worth a slight perk price..
Surely not in an arena with unperked Spit16s and Lalas. But any improvement to the 190A line would be wonderful.
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"1/2" meaning fwd + as little aft as possible. I'm pretty sure you're better off (except for speed penalty) with whatever fuel loadout gives you as little AFT as possible + a DT, as far as maneuvering is concerned. The DT is forward of even the FWD tank, iirc.Burn's at 2x in the MA.
This may have already been mentioned, but the hooky things that hold drop-tanks/ord on LW rides cost as much as 5 knots after ord/drop expended on due to drag of afore-mentioned hooky things...I tested it offline a year or 3 ago
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I fly em all minus the dora. Prefer A8 slightly over A5.
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A8 is a bit faster than the A5 but I'll take maneuverability over top speed anyday. ;)
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at full flaps the A5 will handily outmaneuver a spit16 in a stall fight.
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at full flaps the A5 will handily outmaneuver a spit16 in a stall fight.
shhhh. Don't tell the spit drivers that. :t
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at full flaps the A5 will handily outmaneuver a spit16 in a stall fight.
Not if the Spit drops flaps.
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Not if the Spit drops flaps.
you'll be long dead before that happens. :aok
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Why would I be dead?
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Why would I be dead?
Depends on the situation, not saying you specifically Die Hard. Just talking about the average situation, spitfire 16s tend to take MG151s poorly. ;)
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The average Spit16 pilot probably doesn't know what flaps are, to say nothing of actually using them in combat. So if a Spit16 drops flaps you are not fighting an average Spit16 driver. Flaps down a Spit16 will fly circles around an A-5. The only German fighter that can hang with the Spit16 in a stall fight like that is the 109F-4.
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the A5 cam actually float with full flaps DAMN good compared to what you (or your opponent) would expect.. you will be buisy on the stick though, it wants to snap the entire time, but if you can wrestle with it, you can get some very decent and more importantly UNEXPECTED low speed maneuvers out of it.
I dont have a film, but for example yesterday I was helping some folks in GVs when a spit came tearing in, I dodged his first BNZ attempt and kicked hard rudder untill I slowed enough to deploy full flaps.. sure enough immediately the spitty was more than happy to blow all his E and have a turn fight, so in short order the fight went into scissors, each time me getting closer and closer to a gun solution, but just as he was about to cross my gun sight he just flat out ran out of fly and went down in the trees.. once the fight got slow it probably lasted around 2 minutes.. which is an eternity, the entire time I was never close to being out-turned.
I think the biggest ADVANTAGE of the A5 is exactly as stated "it cant turn" usually by the time your opponent figures out that statement isn't exactly accurate.. its too late.
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I think the biggest ADVANTAGE of the A5 is exactly as stated "it cant turn" usually by the time your opponent figures out that statement isn't exactly accurate.. its too late.
And that's what kills alot of pilots, they assume that the A5 is similar to the later versions, which isn't the case. She'll give you a quick surprise and a quicker trip to the tower if you under estimate it, which 75% of the MA population do. ;)
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at full flaps the A5 will handily outmaneuver a spit16 in a stall fight.
AAAAHHHHHH HAHAHAHAA HAHAHAAAAAAAAAA HAHA HA HA ahha haha .. . ha..
Wow.
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Yeah guys, don't delude yourself. The 190s are arrows. They fly straight and sting. You can't out-spitfire spitfires in them.
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Arrows don't fly that straight.
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Arrows don't fly that straight.
Luft arrows do. :cool:
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AAAAHHHHHH HAHAHAHAA HAHAHAAAAAAAAAA HAHA HA HA ahha haha .. . ha..
Yeah guys, don't delude yourself. The 190s are arrows. They fly straight and sting. You can't out-spitfire spitfires in them.
exactly why its so deadly :cool:
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Wow.
Just.
Wow...
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Wow.
Just.
Wow...
noooo its SHAM WOW :D
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at full flaps the A5 will handily outmaneuver a spit16 in a stall fight.
No flaps the spit 16 turns @ 38% better than the a5.
With flaps the spit turns @ 30% better.
Maybe if you are figting a total idiot noob with their stall limiter on and no clue what they are doing you will outmaneuver a spit16 in a a5. But vs. a pilot that has even the slightest clue what they are doing the a5 should be dead meat.
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at full flaps the A5 will handily outmaneuver a spit16 in a stall fight.
:huh handily? :huh in a stall fight? :huh
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No flaps the spit 16 turns @ 38% better than the a5.
With flaps the spit turns @ 30% better.
Maybe if you are figting a total idiot noob with their stall limiter on and no clue what they are doing you will outmaneuver a spit16 in a a5. But vs. a pilot that has even the slightest clue what they are doing the a5 should be dead meat.
This is the line some of these "uber pilots" seem to forget. :lol 95% of the spit pilots in this game haven't get a clue, most don't even know what the flaps are for let along know how to use them. I've out maneuver spits with a goon before, but that doesn't make it uber, nor does it make me a great "pilot". It just proves the point that most spits today are noobes with no skills.
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I flew the A5 in one sortie before I hit the sack...I got one kill in a turn fight and I HO'ed an A6M cause I had a PW. :D
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and you learned what for the night spikes? :D
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The only German fighter that can hang with the Spit16 in a stall fight like that is the 109F-4.
The 109G2 can "hang" with a Spit16.
A 109F4 will eat the 16's lunch, time after time.
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I prefer the A8. The roll rate gives it opportunity to change direction in less then a heartbeat.
I've flown it more this tour then any tour I can remember in a long time.
The A8 was my favorite ride long ago in AW.
Still like it a great deal.
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The average Spit16 pilot probably doesn't know what flaps are, to say nothing of actually using them in combat. So if a Spit16 drops flaps you are not fighting an average Spit16 driver. Flaps down a Spit16 will fly circles around an A-5. The only German fighter that can hang with the Spit16 in a stall fight like that is the 109F-4.
Have you actually flown every german A/C and know their limits and what they can actually do? If not then that last sentence has little credibility.
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Have you actually flown every german A/C and know their limits and what they can actually do? If not then that last sentence has little credibility.
I did and I agree with DieHard.
The Spit 16 seriously outperforms the A5 in terms of turn radius and turn rate, both with and without flaps. (Spit without flaps still has smaller absolute turn radius than A5 with full flaps). It's much better accelerating and has better climb rate. Speed is very similar. A5 rolls better than a spit 16, but then this advantage takes a lot of experience and skill to exploit.
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The average Spit16 pilot probably doesn't know what flaps are, to say nothing of actually using them in combat. So if a Spit16 drops flaps you are not fighting an average Spit16 driver. Flaps down a Spit16 will fly circles around an A-5. The only German fighter that can hang with the Spit16 in a stall fight like that is the 109F-4.
Tell that to all of the XVI's that die after starting an attack from the 6 o'clock position of my 109G-6.
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Tell that to all of the XVI's that die after starting an attack from the 6 o'clock position of my 109G-6.
Tell that to the pilots... not to the planes...
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No, do not tell that to them ever. Thank you.
I´ve just started to win against spixteens in 109´s, and you are going to go educate them... dude are you serious ? :devil
To be abit more serious in the matter... i´d say it takes alot of skill to win a co-e bout against spits in either 190A´s or 109G´s.
I´d say that most of the spit jockeys don´t even grasp how much it takes skill to fly actually something else than those starwars fighters, they are just happy to go the easy way... and boast around how great they are at it.
I think we should have a soundpack ingame, where all spits have TIE-fighter sound :rofl
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No, do not tell that to them ever. Thank you.
I´ve just started to win against spixteens in 109´s, and you are going to go educate them... dude are you serious ? :devil
To be abit more serious in the matter... i´d say it takes alot of skill to win a co-e bout against spits in either 190A´s or 109G´s.
I´d say that most of the spit jockeys don´t even grasp how much it takes skill to fly actually something else than those starwars fighters, they are just happy to go the easy way... and boast around how great they are at it.
I think we should have a soundpack ingame, where all spits have TIE-fighter sound :rofl
Oh yeah, let's turn this into a Spit-pilot bashing thread. :t
There is some truth to what you say, however. The little bit of stick-time I have in Spits taught me this: point your lift-vector at the bandit, pull back on the stick, when you're lined up fire a little squirt of 20mm and he's dead.
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if only it was that easy :rolleyes:
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Have you actually flown every german A/C and know their limits and what they can actually do? If not then that last sentence has little credibility.
Yes, I have plus every other plane in the plane set. The 109F-4 and maybe the 109E-4 are the only German planes that are a straight match-up for a Spit in a stall fight. The G2 can play an E game and maybe win occasionally.
A decent pilot in an F-4 should beat a Spit XVI almost every time. If they don't they'll at least give the XVI a tough go of it. I love flying that match-up as the XVI driver.
Of course there are guys like Agent who handles the K-4 pretty well but even he's never beat me while I was in a Spit.
190's? Not a chance unless the Spit pilot's on his two week free trial.
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A decent pilot in an F-4 should beat a Spit XVI almost every time. If they don't they'll at least give the XVI a tough go of it. I love flying that match-up as the XVI driver.
Only if the Spit pilot doesn't use his superior climb-rate, acceleration, and speed: if he does than the 109F-4 is easy to beat. But it's 1 in a 100 that a Spit pilot does something other than rely on turn rate. :rolleyes:
Let's face it. The XVI is an easy-mode plane that stunts the ACM growth of a huge chunk of the AH player-base. :aok
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Only if the Spit pilot doesn't use his superior climb-rate, acceleration, and speed
Those are difficult assets to use once the fights gotten slow and dirty.
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No they're not.
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Got to chip in my 2 pennies here...
I am not a great 109 driver but I'm far far above average in the F4/G2. While the F4 is dominant to the spitV and the G2 to the spitIX we have anyone who thinks an F4 or G2 is dominant vs a Spit XVI hasn't ever run into a decent spixteen driver. The F4/G2 can certainly win the fight however it needs to be via a "midgame fork" that misdirects the spitty. Neither 109 can win an endgame vs the XVI. Thats just a statement of fact. Obviously pilot quality is a big factor here, most spit drivers are sadly deficient....
As for the A5, anyone who thinks that they beat a spit XVI on anything other then pilot error is delusional. Now again relative pilot skill is the big variable. I can beat about 50% (or more) of the spit/la-7 drivers in the game in a clean merge at 7k in an SBD...by contrast I'd say I can beat less then 25% of the 109/190 drivers. The reality is that those pilots have a better grasp of both ACM and plane limitations and fly a better fight.
So the 1st thing to understand is that 50% of the spit drivers you meet died before you got there and just didnt know it till you told them. The other 50% are broken into a roughly 35/15 mix IMO with 35% being plane dependent in there (stick to belly types)...however the 15% that can fly +/-E and "3D" are a very formidable bunch in combination with the spitty.
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No they're not.
I should have said sometimes.
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I flew a spixt16 the other day and felt dirty. Only really bad SA will get you killed in it and as long as you see the tracers before you get hit you have great chances to reverse for a kill.
Spit8's and 9's are almost as easy. Easy mode planes, realy men who have to fly british should stick to the mossies and spit5s. At least they don't have a big "i fly easy mode" sticker slapped on the sides.
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LOL @ "real men" in reference to a cartoon air combat game
btw, my last tour was a British one. Didi fly lots of "easy mode" sorties. And died a lot more than my usual average ;)
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LOL @ "real men"
You've got to make them think of themselves as sissies to get them to try other planes :D
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Spits are too fragile. I've reversed a fight and killed my attacker in Mossies, Ki-84s, Fw190s and various other aircraft after taking hits that would have simply downed the Spitfire before any reverse happened. Yeah, yeah, SA. Everybody slacks off at times and gets overwhelmed at others. Well, almost everybody.
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Have you actually flown every german A/C and know their limits and what they can actually do? If not then that last sentence has little credibility.
Yes I have. The only German fighter that I'm positive can hang with a Spit16 in a flat turn is the 109F-4. I don't think the 109E-4 can, but perhaps the 110C-4b. I'm not too sure about those. Other German planes that probably can hang with the Spit16 in a flat turn are the Ju 87 and (probably) the Ju 88. I used to fly the 88 quite a bit as a fighter just for fun. Difficult to get kills with that single peashooter, but it's all worth it when you get to embarrass an overconfident fighter pie-lit.
That said, a competent Spit16 driver won't turn with a 109F-4, but rather overpower it in the vertical. And in defense the Spit can always spiral climb away.
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Heheheh:
If you get your mossie real, real light, you can turn with Spixteens.
To the credit of the guys involved, they've expressed surprise, but not cried "Haxxorz!"
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Got to chip in my 2 pennies here...
I am not a great 109 driver but I'm far far above average in the F4/G2. While the F4 is dominant to the spitV and the G2 to the spitIX we have anyone who thinks an F4 or G2 is dominant vs a Spit XVI hasn't ever run into a decent spixteen driver. The F4/G2 can certainly win the fight however it needs to be via a "midgame fork" that misdirects the spitty. Neither 109 can win an endgame vs the XVI. Thats just a statement of fact. Obviously pilot quality is a big factor here, most spit drivers are sadly deficient....
As for the A5, anyone who thinks that they beat a spit XVI on anything other then pilot error is delusional. Now again relative pilot skill is the big variable. I can beat about 50% (or more) of the spit/la-7 drivers in the game in a clean merge at 7k in an SBD...by contrast I'd say I can beat less then 25% of the 109/190 drivers. The reality is that those pilots have a better grasp of both ACM and plane limitations and fly a better fight.
This is valid. Im sure that a lot of pilot ability is factoring into these arguments - at least they are for mine.
All things being equal, yes the Spit 16 is a better A/C when compared to the F4, G2 and A5.
In the MA, though, I can count the number of 16's Ive run into, that were actually piloted by good virtual sticks, on one hand. The flat turn is usually what most end up doing, in which case the F4 has it beat. Vertical? Not so much. But then, the early 109 driver shouldnt be playing that game against a late war uber-ride, anyway.
The G2 is a bit better suited to fighting a "better" stick in a 16 and less suited to a n00b stick, oddly enough. Against a flat turn, the 16 will win. However, with an alternating climb/dive turn and tail-heavy trim against the 16, I find that the G2 can pull guns consistently. Even the G6 can get close due to the softer stall.
The 190A5 is an entirely different game. I am very confident going after Spitfires in mine - especially the 8's with the reduced roll rate, but again, because most MA Spit drivers think "On" and "Off" are the only two throttle settings, a decent A5 driver can hack it with them quite nicely.
But again, as above, I don't think anyone disputes that, pilots being equal, we'd all rather be in the 16 since it, frankly speaking, outclasses the early 109's and 190's in almost every way and, with the chopped wings, even closes the 190's roll rate gap.
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No question that a well flown A5 is a handful for any plane, its got a tremendous ability to "go sushi" on you in the right hands and can be almost impossible to aggressively pursue since its got such great ability to force the overshoot. You end up either to fast to really secure a solid shot or at risk of getting so slow the 190 can claw up over you....or accepting the risk of an overshoot if you don't convert your shot.
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...or at risk of getting so slow the 190 can claw up over you....
Which is exactly how a great, 2 minute 1v1 I had last night vs. Coog03 in his Spit8 ended. :aok
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Just as Mazz stated. In our 190A5s, i feel comfortable fighting spitfires of any model. why? Because i have confidence in my understanding of my planes strengths, limits, and characteristics vs the enemy's aircraft. More times than likely as stated above alot of spitfires only have "Firewall" and "idle" on the throttle, which makes it super easy to cause alot of spits to overshoot, or get out of sync, with your roll rate.
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Good for you. Go get'em!
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No question that a well flown A5 is a handful for any plane, its got a tremendous ability to "go sushi" on you in the right hands and can be almost impossible to aggressively pursue since its got such great ability to force the overshoot. You end up either to fast to really secure a solid shot or at risk of getting so slow the 190 can claw up over you....or accepting the risk of an overshoot if you don't convert your shot.
Eh. I'll bet not many A5s get away from you, Humble. If you have a Batfink flying one, then you have a problem on your hands, but that's so with any plane he flys. Unless you're in a truly inferior plane, in a significantly worse E situation, or the A5's pilot is two leagues above yours, the A5 shouldn't be a problem for most of its contemporaries.
It's sure the best of the FWs, though.
- oldman
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Best is very arguable, since all 190s do different things better than one another. I'd say the 152 and D9 are easily the best 190s, as far as A2A is concerned. The A5 simply doesn't have enough thrust to compete.
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Best is very arguable, since all 190s do different things better than one another. I'd say the 152 and D9 are easily the best 190s, as far as A2A is concerned. The A5 simply doesn't have enough thrust to compete.
I really want to disagree with this since the A5's acceleration is so good (for its age) at and below 5K but... alas... the D9 and 152 were built for a reason... they are "better."
Either way, the A5 is just plain old more fun for me and, at the end of the day, thats what this is supposed to be about.
;)
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An A5 with extra boost and cowl guns removed, and/or an A9 with as little ballast as possible would be competitive, I expect.
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You guys are arguing about this as if every time you upped a plane in this game you're only going to run into the very best pilots, who know everything, and can do everything, in even-altitude 1 on 1 duels. Yeah, I'll grant that in that case the FW 190s probably aren't the best all-around choice.
But that's not the case. The vast majority of pilots in this game, myself included, don't know everything, can't do everything, and are encountered in situations where one or the other will have some kind of advantage, and attempt to make the most of it. These situations aren't always, or even usually just 1 on 1 either.
And with these facts as they are, the FW 190s can be very competitive indeed. I've flown the FW 190 models from time to time, but as a result of reading this thread, I got really excited about these planes again, and so the last couple of days I flew quite a few sorties in the FW 190-A5, and really raked in a lot of scalps (53 kills in the A5 so far this tour, for 17 deaths in that plane). Doesn't matter to me that if I'd met up with one of the truly best-skilled aces in this game, 1 on 1, in some technically better plane, I would probably have died. It just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because that's not what usually happens if I up one of these planes, and with my upper-intermediate skill level, the FW 190-A5 allows me to get a lot of kills in the usual MA environment, such as it is.
I have to agree that the A5 is a fun little plane. In the past I've flown all of the 190s quite a few times each, and the A5 seems to me the best dogfighter, though I admit it's really nice to have all that D9 power. And I'll use the F8 with 12 rockets and de-ack huge amounts of guns from a base, or from time to time I've killed a GV or two with the rockets. I like the 4x20mm package with the A8 rather than the 30mms - it's like having a fast Hurricane that can't turn as well, and carries a lot more rocks. But the A5 is the funnest dogfighter in my opinion. It simply feels nimbler than the A8 or D9.
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I'm enjoying the A8 personally. 20mm packages. I don't fly that often but I'm getting better lol. I find I survive more in the A8. I don't mind slowing it down and using rolling maneuvers + flaps. Hardest thing for me is forcing an overshoot. I can't seem to slow down fast enough. My favorite fights are against Jugs and P-38's. I'm considering looking for a squad that flys 190's/109's primarily so I can really dig into it w/people who have mastered them.
The A5 is a great plane that I simply can not score kills in. I love the way she flys but my gunnery is very bad. I get assists all day long but so far have not scored an air victory in one yet this session. (3 pt boats is all I've killed. all the same guy.)
Riceball. :salute
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A8 is my favourite but then again I'm not too bright...
Here's one of my few films. This one doesn't end well either but it still has lots of dodging and very very bad shooting. :frown:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=1c731439108fe5d07432d3c9683f450ae04e75f6e8ebb871
-C+
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An interesting debate overall, personally the more I fly the 152 the more I feel its a dominant bird vs anything once you learn its quirks. Now that being said moot and I were in the midst of a fine fight when a tardlet whacked him. In fairness I was so focused on Moot that I never saw him and he did apologize on range afterward....but didn't ask before he engaged.
So the real benefit of the 152/D9 is survivability and power band...but all to often you get lost in the moment. The better the fight the more complete your focus and the less value that edge has. To me the A5 is more twitchy then the 152 (I don't fly the D9 much). To me the A5 has almost all the attributes of the yak with a better gun package...
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Well i would like to add a statement on Moots response to the A5s limited thrust compared to the D9/152 series. The A5 in my opinion is just about there with both in all other categories except involving engine performance. I find that Good overall SA in the combat zone will net you a longer survival % even with the A5s lesser engine power. Mixed with it's maneuverability it's a contender.
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Yeah Humble I got carried away.. Really sucks when you let your guard down (i.e. no SA outside the 1:1) and pay for it for no good reason other than some guy who couldn't help but break up a 1:1 literally in the middle of nowhere. I'd apologize for how I said what I said but what's done is done.
It's just my opinion, but I have no doubt that all things considered, the A5's largest handicap by far is the lack of thrust. It just can't get back to speed like it needs to, and I don't mean 400mph.. I mean it doesn't claw forward like the D9 and 152 (to a much lesser degree for the latter) on their way out of tight maneuvers. It takes just a little too long. Has just a bit too little power in nose-high low-speed acm.
When we get the perk loadout system, I reckon it would be a good idea to make a case for an overboosted A5 engine and removed cowl guns.
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I still say the A8 with the 30mm package is the best. As long as the angles aren't too far out of whack all it takes is a quick roll to orient yourself and the 30's do the rest of the work. If you're close anywhere near someone's 3/9 line there's no escaping those 30mm's but the merge/approach and anticipation of where the opponent's going to go is hugely important. Hopefully it's a one shot kill. If not you blow through, reset and try again.
BTW, I agree that the 190's are actually great in a furball. Highly effective if you keep the speed up.
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No.. If you blow through, you get run down (or up) and taken apart, if the odds (e-state, numbers, etc) are anything close to even. You're loading the comparison.
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You're loading the comparison.
Well, yes I am depending on the match-up. I'd like to say I'm not foolhardy enough to go into a co-alt/co-E fight against a Spit XVI or something similar but I actually am and I usually die doing that. If, on the other hand, I fly smart, properly guaging E states, my approach and my exit strategy then the A8 works just fine.
On the other hand, given the state of compentence in the MA's I've beaten a lot of "superior" aircraft with the A8 in situations that you'd never fly it in against an equal opponent.
As Forrest Gump almost said; Life is like the MA's. You never know what you're going to get.
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I do know that the A8 is nowhere near competitive with the rest of the planeset, outside of huge handicaps like in your comparison, and certainly isn't competitive with any other 190 but the F8.
Anyone can say they will do well thanks to any plane's better qualities if they use them smart. That's true for any plane, not just the A8. If it's true for any plane, it means the A8 is back on even ground and remains the 50 ton barge that it is.
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I only use the A8 for heavy bomber intercept. It's just way to heavy for any real competitive dogfighting.
The A5 was my favorite for a long while but the D9 and especially the TA152 are now very interesting to me. Love the 152's weapon loadout.
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The 190A-6 would be like an A-5 but with 4 MG-151. :t
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Roll Roll, my 190 is the D. she rolls over like Lindsey lohan after a couple of beers. Fire power is good, speed is great. If ever in doubt run.
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Roll Roll, my 190 is the D. she rolls over like Lindsey lohan after a couple of beers.
Not as fast as octo-mom then?
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The 109G2 can "hang" with a Spit16.
A 109F4 will eat the 16's lunch, time after time.
I need a lesson from you. I'm not exactly sure what either the F-4 or G- 2 can do to out-perform the almightly Spit16. I do my best to keep the fight verticle, but it seems the Spitfires can do it all better save for a wee bit of climb.
Regarding the Fw190x, I'd have to say the A-5 is fast becoming my favorite. The D-9 is a close second. I only take up up the A-/F-8 when I'm hunting buffs or hitting an enemy airfield. They are too much of a pig to handle in any other situation, IMO. I will barely take the A-5/D-9 into a 1v1 situation, and wont do so unless I have E, at minimum co -alt, and a clear way to extend away if I get in a bad position.
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I need a lesson from you. I'm not exactly sure what either the F-4 or G- 2 can do to out-perform the almightly Spit16. I do my best to keep the fight verticle, but it seems the Spitfires can do it all better save for a wee bit of climb.
The flat turn is usually what most end up doing, in which case the F4 has it beat. Vertical? Not so much. But then, the early 109 driver shouldnt be playing that game against a late war uber-ride, anyway.
The G2 is a bit better suited to fighting a "better" stick in a 16 and less suited to a n00b stick, oddly enough. Against a flat turn, the 16 will win. However, with an alternating climb/dive turn and tail-heavy trim against the 16, I find that the G2 can pull guns consistently. Even the G6 can get close due to the softer stall.
Problem solved. :aok
Shoot me a PM - love spending time in the DA. I usually have to goad people into doing it. :noid
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Only one way to fly a 190 imo, in the vertical. The 190 in general is not a good "dogfighter" in the traditional meaning of the word. However, it is a good air superiority fighter, as long as you are not facing a numerically superior enemy and is at a tactical disadvantage. The only decent "dogfighter" of the 190 family is the Ta152H which has a respectable turn ratio.
The 190 is, generally speaking, a pure B&Z fighter. While there are variations between the types this remains true for all of them.
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190 D9
I love this plane for two reasons... 1. Its fast as hell and 2. Its got good firepower (although not the best).
I find the Dora is full of surprises because it is an unusually fast plane for something that carries cannons. And about 500 rounds of cannons that is. Most planes that are fast usually carry MGs, with the exception of the L-gay 7. Im more of a BnZer and the Dora seems to fit my fighting style the best.
Ive flown all the 190 models and the 152, and I like them all. The 152 on the other hand, is a paradox to me. If I see a 152, I know that the pilot there is probably a good one. I know next to little about the plane, except that it has an ungodly fast top speed over 20k. Any advice on flying it?
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Know its tail end by heart. Don't overestimate the elevators, or underestimate the rudder. Use the vertical. Stay smooth. Plan ahead.
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190 D9
I love this plane for two reasons... 1. Its fast as hell and 2. Its got good firepower (although not the best).
I find the Dora is full of surprises because it is an unusually fast plane for something that carries cannons. And about 500 rounds of cannons that is. Most planes that are fast usually carry MGs, with the exception of the L-gay 7. Im more of a BnZer and the Dora seems to fit my fighting style the best.
Ive flown all the 190 models and the 152, and I like them all. The 152 on the other hand, is a paradox to me. If I see a 152, I know that the pilot there is probably a good one. I know next to little about the plane, except that it has an ungodly fast top speed over 20k. Any advice on flying it?
370mph+ on the deck club:
Cannon armed:
Bf109K-4
Fw190D-9
La-7
Tempest Mk V
Typhoon Mk Ib
Machine gun armed:
F4U-4
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If I see a 152, I know that the pilot there is probably a good one. I know next to little about the plane, except that it has an ungodly fast top speed over 20k.
That isn't as much the truth as the community seems to believe. Actually from 20k to about 28k the P-51D is faster. The P47N is faster than the 152 at any alt above 7k! The F4-U4 from 7k to 26K. The 109K is faster at any altitude up to 27K. The Dpit 14 from 19K to 26K. Between 20k and 25K, even the good old P-47-D40 has about the same top speed...
(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9263/clipboard01e.jpg)
Once I preferred the 190D for it's amazing speed and acceleration. But nowadays I fly mostly the Ta 152 despite all it's shortcomings for two reasons:
Grace and firepower.
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The 152 is also very slow to accelerate in level flight. At 41k, its top level speed altitude, it takes over 20 minutes to reach 470TAS from the ~180IAS climb speed. It might be quicker to keep climbing ~5K and shallow dive back to 41k.
I will say that the 47N isn't just "faster than the 152" at anything above 26k. The N's speed tapers off past its 35k optimal altitude (or maybe I'm thinking of the climb curve - never did see a chart for the 47N's speed up to 40k+), which is ten thousand feet lower than the 152's. The N's wep lasts only five minutes and takes a whole ten minutes to recharge. Whereas the 152 lasts fifteen and only five to recharge. I don't have the old speed chart for the 152 that goes up to 45k, but I'm pretty sure a MIL power N is not quite competitive with a 152 that manages to make a fight last longer than five minutes up at 35-45kft.
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Sure, 47N looses a lot of it's teeth when wep runs out. My post was merely a warning to the prevalent simplifying thinking "Ta152>20K = fastest thing around". I have seen a few 152 drivers been killed by that ;)
On a general note: Most players aren't used at all to fighting at altitudes above 20k. It's very much a different beast (with a lot more of thinking and pre-planning your moves). Even slight judgement errors and failures in keeping E can quickly result in ending up a very unfavorably situation, no matter how superior your plane is. Much more than at lower altitudes.
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Could you use your trainer superpowers and snatch the old speed/climb chart for the 152 that went up to 40k+? And/or same for the N?
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Could you use your trainer superpowers and snatch the old speed/climb chart for the 152 that went up to 40k+? And/or same for the N?
I'm afraid that chart may be older than my AH existance... never seen such a thing.
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Widewing did some tests to compare 152 and 47N at 40k:
Back in November, I did some 40k speed runs comparing the Ta 152 and P-47N.
At 40,000 feet, the Ta 152 could reach 453 mph. That's mighty fast. However, the P-47N was able to attain 462 mph. The 152 required WEP, but the P-47N was above FTH, so WEP provided no increase in power.
Adding to the difference was the far superior acceleration and climb of the P-47N above 30k. The 152 required a 50 mile run to reach max speed from 400 mph, but the P-47 needed just 30 miles (and was 9 mph faster). Maneuvering was tested subjectively. I found the Jug far more stable and a much better turner, especially as it could utilize flaps very easily and efficiently.
At 450 mph @ 40k, I executed a zoom climb in each. The P-47's greater mass carried it about 1,000 feet higher.
From 43,000 feet, I dived each to its maximum speed. In Mach, the results were:
Ta 152: 0.88 Mach
P-47N: 0.91 Mach
Both recovered without drama using trim tabs.
My regards,
Widewing
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I'm afraid that chart may be older than my AH existance... never seen such a thing.
Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to retrieve this intel from HTC..
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Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to retrieve this intel from HTC..
You are overestimating my "powers". I have no more than you in that regard.
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Edit: Do not have the old chart, my mistake.
Also have aquired a set of books about the 190 and 152 specifically at the Aero Friedrichshafen Messe today that has revealed a lot of information I was previously unaware of. Fascinating stuff!
:salute
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You are overestimating my "powers". I have no more than you in that regard.
You should know that we're holding a snail nursery hostage until you return with this info. Make no attempt to alert HTC to this secure communication channel, or these precious gastropods will meet the direst white wine-fueled fate!
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You should know that we're holding a snail nursery hostage until you return with this info. Make no attempt to alert HTC to this secure communication channel, or these precious gastropods will meet the direst white wine-fueled fate!
:rofl
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Grace and firepower.
Turn rate and E-retention under Gs?
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All 190s bleed E horribly. I think the 152 as much as the Anton (subjective opinion). I like the 152 and I think the aspect I like is ... to use Lusche's term... "grace".
That doesn't mean she's graceful to fly, with her slip indicator bouncing left and right, the tail flopping all over the sky and the horrible wing wobble when coming out of a roll. However there's something nice about the plane. Maybe it's just the way it looks, or the "what might have been" aspect of its WW2 history.
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All 190s bleed E horribly. I think the 152 as much as the Anton (subjective opinion). I like the 152 and I think the aspect I like is ... to use Lusche's term... "grace".
That doesn't mean she's graceful to fly, with her slip indicator bouncing left and right, the tail flopping all over the sky and the horrible wing wobble when coming out of a roll. However there's something nice about the plane. Maybe it's just the way it looks, or the "what might have been" aspect of its WW2 history.
Not the 152. It is actually a PITA attempting to slow one down with high-G barrel rolls and throttle cutting. Its efficient wing allows it to sustain a very respectable turn rate of 19.3dps, better than many aircraft with light wingloading, including the P-47 series, P-51, P-38L, and all F4Us except the -4. (Mosq Data)
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The 152 has a sustained turn radius of 800 feet according to MOSQ's data.
Not exactly a great turner. You compare it to the P51D and the P47N, two of the worst-turning planes in the game :t :D
Only every US ride can drop a notch of flaps and suddenly gain 20% less turn radius, where the 152 just increases chances of tail sliding vertically into the earth, butt-first.
Definitely NOT the best manuvering of the lot, and yet there's still something elegant about it. I think it's how the nose slopes up to the canopy and back down to the vertical stab. Up and down, almost aerodynamic.
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The 152 has a sustained turn radius of 800 feet according to MOSQ's data.
Not exactly a great turner. You compare it to the P51D and the P47N, two of the worst-turning planes in the game :t :D
Only every US ride can drop a notch of flaps and suddenly gain 20% less turn radius, where the 152 just increases chances of tail sliding vertically into the earth, butt-first.
Definitely NOT the best manuvering of the lot, and yet there's still something elegant about it. I think it's how the nose slopes up to the canopy and back down to the vertical stab. Up and down, almost aerodynamic.
Radius is not the sole arbiter of turn performance.
Yes, radius is poor, but the sustained turn rate advantage will allow it to come around and get on the the tail of a P-51D, , P-47, or even low-E F4U who simply tries to drop flaps and go about in an endless circular nose-to-tail chase. The 152 will fare rather more poorly if the the bandit reverses his direction to initiate a scissors and the 152 accepts, however it can 1. Use a vertical maneuver to refuse the scissors and attempt to re-establish the nose-to-tail chase or 2. Simply take the crossing snapshot the bandit exposes himself to on the turn reversal. Have Snailman demonstrate this principle to you sometime.
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You guys must be flying a different plane. It's not a PITA and is the best handling Fw.
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It's not a PITA and is the best handling Fw.
You are used to it. Fly it again as a average, casual AH pilot that takes a 152 up only every once in a while. And enjoy your way down to the ground with your tail first ;)
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But that's true for any plane.. Yeah, the 152's on the worse end of the flakiness spectrum, but if you approach it correctly, not trying to fly it like a spitfire, the same way you don't approach a Spit14 like it were a zero, it's really not that osbcure a flight envelope. It holds aileron authority further than the other 190s, has one of the best rudders in the game, and is at least as well behaved as the other 190s until you push it too far. I don't think pushing it too far is a problem with the 152, since in 190s you have no use for their post-departure regime. Anyone who's flown 190s will know to stay skirting the safe end of departure. The same applies to the 152, and not only that but the 152 is a better plane inside the envelope.
If you pay attention to the sideslip instruments and/or have taken 15min exploring what triggers tailspins, it's really not esoteric anymore.
The only real PITA is sluggish control response. I don't see how the 152's hard to airbrake with compared to the other Fw. It's not only better at it, it's more useful once you've slowed it down that way. The other 190s' "user friendly" nearly automatic self-correction mean they simply refuse to cooperate if you try to airbrake with them.. They simply won't hold sideways.
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You guys must be flying a different plane. It's not a PITA and is the best handling Fw.
I said it was a PITA trying to make it dump speed. This sort of E-retention is mostly a good thing though. :aok
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.. Can you specify? It's the easiest to dump speed in.
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.. Can you specify? It's the easiest to dump speed in.
Starting at say 400mph IAS, if I chop throttle and begin doing barrel-rolls or other maneuvers, it seems like I can "pull into the black" for a long time compared to the Dora, where if you chop throttle and commence pulling Gs you get slow right quick. This is the efficient high-aspect ratio wing at work. You probably mean it has enough rudder authority to do a helluva a side-slip at more moderate speeds, correct?
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Yep, I don't see any reason to exclude the rudder from this sort of evaluation/comparison.
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Yep, I don't see any reason to exclude the rudder from this sort of evaluation/comparison.
Well, I was citing how reluctant the 152 is to bleed speed under G-loading as an example of its E-retention as compared to the 190s...this is of course one of its most beneficial traits 90% of the time.
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Excluding the rudder just seems like loading the question. The gist was that the 152's a pita to shed speed with, e.g. in barrel rolls. In fact the 152 is by quite a bit the most capable at this, and while you can get yourself in deep poop if you do it wrong, it's also the easier one to deal with in this maneuver. The D9 might be dead simple to control, but its sharp departure takes more care and experience to exploit successfully in a dogfight than the 152's comparatively soft departure and post-departure aileron and rudder control.
Where the 152 clearly can't compete is in fast scissors. The only way to pull it off is to snap roll them but the D9 and A5 can both do as much.
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I'm putting this here because it doesn't warrant a thread of its own.. Interesting bit of info though.
Additionally, it says the subcontracted manufacturer of the MW50 tank was overrun by allied forces and that the use of the inner wing tanks (some 30 liters each) for MW50 was a substitute to the original 140 liter tank configuration, suggesting that it was not because of CG issues but rather component availability issues.
Food for thought.... From one of Malcom V. Lowe's publications from 2008. It doesn't specify if this is for all or only select models of the 152.
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A complete speed/altitude chart..
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190-a8-12jan45.jpg
It looks like I remembered, except for that sharp dip at 11.5km.
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Afaik the C model never had any CG issues. However it may be relevant if you have previously regarded that alteration to the H model a 'fix' of CG issues. That would be wrong to assume so.
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I'm putting this here because it doesn't warrant a thread of its own.. Interesting bit of info though.Food for thought.... From one of Malcom V. Lowe's publications from 2008. It doesn't specify if this is for all or only select models of the 152.
The Ta152H-0 carried no 'boost juices'. The Ta152H-1 did. The Ta152C-1 carried MW50. The H-0 carried a rear fuselage fuel tank.
I don't know where this inner wing tanks comes from but the H-1 had one 70l. MW50 tank in the left wing.
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Yep.. That's how I remember it, hence it being an interesting bit of info. One thing I didn't know is that the C had more internal fuel than the H.
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Yeah, the above quote is related to the 152C model and has little, if anything, to do with the H model afaik. I've not read the whole book yet but what's written above is related to the C model.
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Thanks.