Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Baumer on March 28, 2009, 01:57:40 AM
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OPERATION: Jubilee, information can be found here;
http://ahevents.org/european-theatre/operation-jubilee.html (http://ahevents.org/european-theatre/operation-jubilee.html)
Registration will open 0600 March 28th 2009 and Close Friday April 3rd at 1700.
<S> Baumer
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After looking at the specs I wonder who will fly Allied :O
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3 different types of spits that are highly competitive? Question is who's gonna fly axis?
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Replace the Hurri2c with the Mk1 and I'm in. :D
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3 different types of spits that are highly competitive? Question is who's gonna fly axis?
I look forward to all your 190 kills in the Mark V :rofl
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I like the looks of both plane sets in this one. Most are going to be early war fighters and there should be some great Spit V vs 109F-4 duels. I see it pretty even.
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It pains me to agree with Krusty, but he has abit of a point. Albeit, he never seems to complain when the inequity runs the other way, I.E, AHII P-51Ds and P-47Ds with 1944 performance up against large numbers of K4s with last-five-minutes-of-1945 performance).
I have no idea which side I will fly this go-round, but I think the Axis deserves more than 16 G2s at the very least, to balance the Allies 24xSpitIXs and 16xTyphoons. At least they have been giving copious 190s, albeit SpitIXs and Typhoons will blunt the advantage of having them by quite abit.
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Okay, I just looked up some DokGonzo numbers. The SpitIX pretty much owns in terms of performance against all 3 available Kraut rides above 20K. The Typhoon is ridiculously fast down low compared to anything the Krauts have, is double superior to the Fw-190A5 in what would otherwise be the Fw's best operating alts for this FSO, and is armed with quad Hispanos to boot.
My suggestion on mods to the numbers:
16 SpitIXs
16 Typhoons
and
32 109G2s.
I would also strongly consider limiting the HurricaneIIc numbers some, don't under-rate a plane that turns on a dime and has four Hispanos.
EDIT: Thought about it, changed my mind abit on the numbers. Reducing the SpitIXs to 16 seems abit much of a swing in the other way.
How about...
24 SpitIX
64 HurricaneIIC
and
24 109G2?
<S>
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I appreciate all the feedback and discussion.
The numbers were arrived at after several lengthy discussions with most of the senior CM's. They are a compromise between historical accuracy and playability.
The results of frame 1 will be reviewed by myself, and several other CM's, to see if changes need to be made to ensure playability and fun for everyone.
Thanks again for the input, and I look forward to seeing everyone at the first frame.
Baumer
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Side assignments are now posted. Frame 1 objectives will be sent later this afternoon.
Thanks,
Baumer
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BnZs, if the 109K4 (November of 1944, FYI) outclassed the P-51s and P-47s I'd mention it. However, having been on the receiving end SO MANY times I've learned it is ... frankly.. owned by the allied rides in squad v squad engagements.
It can barely struggle to get to 30K, and when it does, is instantly bounced by 2x as many P38s, P47D40s, P51Ds, at 35-40K doing 2x or 3x its maximum speed, and in any case where the 109K4 is bounced by an allied plane in superior position (almost always) it has nowhere to go but down.
Guess what? The allied planes excel downhill.
I point out the inequality when it's there.
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Hey HTC, any chance of rotating the Spit V skins before next week? This one's already accepted and would fit the FSO nicely... <cough> Shameless plug <cough>...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/jocko417/ahss51.jpg)
:devil
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3 different types of spits that are highly competitive? Question is who's gonna fly axis?
<<<
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Hey HTC, any chance of rotating the Spit V skins before next week? This one's already accepted and would fit the FSO nicely... <cough> Shameless plug <cough>...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/jocko417/ahss51.jpg)
:devil
Very nice work Jocko. :aok
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Frame 1 Objectives have been sent. CiC's please email or PM me if you have any questions.
Thanks,
Baumer
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Hmmm, I usually see the objectives. Didn't this time :uhoh
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I had a technical issue with the email utility this weekend. So to not waste any time, I sent the objectives directly to the CiC's on Saturday.
Now that the issue has been addressed, I have just sent the objectives to everyone.
Thanks,
Baumer
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Technical difficulty == forHIM hid the keys to the FSO Admin CM closet. :D
Sorry about any delay due to that. It's good to have new roles for CMs, but at times it adds a few delays.
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Well, that was quick! :lol SpitV vs 190 anyone? :P
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Well, that was quick! :lol SpitV vs 190 anyone? :P
dont feel to bad, i had about 20 190's on my six. No way of winning that match.
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Fun event, beautiful sky.
I have not seen the results yet, but I believe they will show that the Hurricanes proved more dangerous than most gave them credit for. As I predicted.
May I ask, what is the purpose of enabling formations when the number of individuals in buffs are high enough that they could stack and mutually support each other without drones? Fast buffs+escort+linked guns seems like overkill. Such might be a necessary evil for the "lone wolf" buffers in the MA, but in FSO, which is all about teamwork, it seems a bit much.
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Fun event, beautiful sky.
I have not seen the results yet, but I believe they will show that the Hurricanes proved more dangerous than most gave them credit for. As I predicted.
May I ask, what is the purpose of enabling formations when the number of individuals in buffs are high enough that they could stack and mutually support each other without drones? Fast buffs+escort+linked guns seems like overkill. Such might be a necessary evil for the "lone wolf" buffers in the MA, but in FSO, which is all about teamwork, it seems a bit much.
You must be new. :P
EDIT: What I mean is... mass bomber formations are pretty normal. You think the 1000 bomber formations over Berlin late in the war was overkill? Or necessary? Just remember, a lot of guys in those bombers don't fly them often and can really have a hard time defending themselves WHILE trying to concentrate on hitting their target. I know that I've had bad experiences flying bombers in the FSO simply because I never bother to fly them in the MA. The formations add to the immersion effect and also give the newbies a chance. :aok
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You must be new. :P
EDIT: What I mean is... mass bomber formations are pretty normal. You think the 1000 bomber formations over Berlin late in the war was overkill? Or necessary? Just remember, a lot of guys in those bombers don't fly them often and can really have a hard time defending themselves WHILE trying to concentrate on hitting their target. I know that I've had bad experiences flying bombers in the FSO simply because I never bother to fly them in the MA. The formations add to the immersion effect and also give the newbies a chance. :aok
First two FSO kills were a 190A5 and a 110G taken in a HurriIIC, back when Tunisia was still literally the "Green Hills of Africa". :lol Must be two years back or so. Like I say, I knew not to underestimate that bird....
What I mean was, it struck me there were sufficient individuals in bombers to form a good stack without the drones, which I think tilt things entirely too far against the interceptor. If being able to fly a tight formation becomes that much more important for buff survival, so much the better. I thought the point of FSO was to *not* do all of the things the MA does to make things "easier".
EDIT: It has struck me long before this, I just haven't given voice to it before.
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Nothing unusual about that at all.
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Still nothing posted.
IMO, BnZs is fulla BeaNs :rofl
Had 4 190's on my SpitV at 15k... Then a fresh batch of 190's on TheMaj and I on the deck.
Pretty much the we (16 of us) were out numbered at the start by 3 to one. Then came the buffs and 109s... For all I know we may well have ran into the entirety of the LW air force, but I gotta ask, just what was this big discrepancy about Allies having superior numbered what of superior planes?
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I'm with BnZs on this one. I hate the bomber drones because they warp. It was so awesome watching all those ju88s dive bomb with drones in tow.
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I think the bomber drones are fair, considering that a real bomber would be manned by an entire crew instead of just one guy. Then add the manual calibration rule... Seems like a pretty big work load for one person.
Turning the drones off would really tip the balance dramatically in favour of the interceptors.
In my opinion.
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Turning the drones off would really tip the balance dramatically in favour of the interceptors.
Historically things *were* dramatically in favor of the interceptors once the bombers went beyond the range of their escorts. The reasoning behind the drones in the MA is apparently the fact that every player operates semi-autonomously most of the time, therefore the buffer needs a bit of an aid. Such is not the case in FSO, where there are enough players to form a box for mutual protection *and* dedicated escorts.
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BnZ,
I understand you concern, however, after reviewing the logs for scoring I have found the following data.
Total kills awarded to allies- 110
Kills awarded to B-25C, Boston Mk III, and Observer-Gunner- 12
Assists awarded to B-25C, Boston Mk III, and Observer-Gunner- 19
So while I appreciate your concern, it would appear to not really have had much of an impact on this frame.
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What about the warps?
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B-25 damage model is kinda off, IMO. They soak up ungodly amounts of ammo. I'm surprised 109Fs were going after them, as they simply don't have enough firepower to take down even 1 B-25C.
However, keep in mind the B-25C only has 1 turret. He's got more of a point when you consider B26s, B17s, B24s, etc. Things more capable of defending themselves.
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What about the warps? :huh What can CM's do about warping drones?
We lost several B-25's to the 109F last night. IMHO the B-25C is not much better than a Boston. They are an easy kill. Go under them or right behind them and you can serve yourself.
PFactor is right. Turning off drones would greatly tip the balance in favor of interceptors in most designs.
Take an early war Pacific event with A6M2's VS B-26's or B-17 and I can see turning off drones, Krusty said it, they can defend themselves. In fact we have many times over the years removed the drone option for early Pac events with Allied bombers.
Of course if anyone want to fly a B-25C without drones, I am sure they would be more than welcome to. ;)
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WE (13Th MPG) were tasked with the defense of A49. We had 14 109F's and our sister squad was The Blind Bats, also with 109's. After fighting the 18k wind gusts' we got great intel from zoozoo of the J/J's. 'B25's otw ' 20 sets, with spit and hurri escorts.' The 13th had alt, and dived on the 25's with some success, hitting them as they were dropping over the field. Was a great battle, as we mixed in-and- out of the formations chewing at their wingroots and tails. Want to thank Mbailey and his boys for the help. Was fun! See you guys next week.. Tuk151 Co 13TH MPG :salute
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What about the warps? :huh What can CM's do about warping drones?
That drones warp as much as they do denies them a place in FSO (and I would argue, the game in general). Turn 'em off and let the players decide how to adapt.
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"Turn 'em off and let the players decide how to adapt."
Or leave them on and learn how to adapt yourself. One solution would be to target the lead bomber and not the drones.
I don't recall seeing drones warping excessively unless the pilot is making hard maneuvers. If that's the case he's taking a chance on losing his drones or missing his target.
I agree with Daddog about the B-25C. A few weeks back during IJ/VVS setup I got behind a large formation of B-25C and shot down five at my liesure.
If I wasn't such a lousy shot I could have probably gotten more. They have no protection from a low six o clock attack. Once I had settled down I was able to just ease up behind them and dispatch them will little problem. The B-25C models really needs the drones to have a chance of making it to the target IMO.
We in VF-17 have done fleet defense four out of the last six FSOs. I realize how hard it is and how frustrated you can get but it's not the fault of drones. Maybe bumping up the ack on the fleets will help or assigning larger CAPs. The battle plans coming out lately for attacking fleets with an advanced fighter sweep well ahead of the bombers and their escorts really makes defending fleets difficult for the CAP.
<S>
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That drones warp as much as they do denies them a place in FSO (and I would argue, the game in general). Turn 'em off and let the players decide how to adapt.
Sorry, that is not going to happen. Shifty said it, I think you better learn to adapt, with drones.
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"Turn 'em off and let the players decide how to adapt."
I don't recall seeing drones warping excessively unless the pilot is making hard maneuvers. If that's the case he's taking a chance on losing his drones or missing his target.
I guess you didn't see your own Ju88s warping as they dive-bombed the fleet yesterday.
Sorry, that is not going to happen. Shifty said it, I think you better learn to adapt, with drones.
If I were a programmer I would not be happy enough with drones as they are to even add them to the game.
I will continue to disrespectfully disagree with the CMs on this one. Title does not make right.
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I guess you didn't see your own Ju88s warping as they dive-bombed the fleet yesterday.
Honestly I didn't notice the drones warping, but I was in a 109 and busy with Spits. ;)
Seriously I understand your frustration I've been there myself recently. It's hard to stay alive against an aggresive fighter sweep then have the bombers and their escorts come in after you've been worn down a bit and turn the fleet into an oil slick.
I'm not trying to give you grief just offer a possible solution like maybe targeting the lead bomber if you're getting warpy drones.
I doubt you're going to get rid of the drones. For what it's worth I thought you 334th FS guys did an outstanding job defending the fleet with the amount of hurt raining down on you.
<S>
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I will continue to disrespectfully disagree with the CMs on this one. Title does not make right.
1. Right Drone, Left Drone, Lead--no warps at all if they are killed in this sequence.
2. Sometimes, you need the formations in order to balance the number of bombers in a setup. You want to argue the drone mechanics, don't complain to the CMs, start talking to HTC and getting them to make that a priority. I sympathize with you on the warping thing, I really do. I've lost my aircraft to a collision more times than I want to count, but I will still use formations in my setups when they are appropriate.
3. 5th AF flew to target without drones last night. A 5-ship mission was able to drop all but a few destroyers because we dove bombed. To be honest, I had reminded the German pilots last night to fly single-ship, but apparently a few either missed that reminder, or blew me off. Regardless, given our situation, not using drones made the most sense to me. Especially since some Allied pilot picked up proxies on those drones that got lost in the dive maneuvers. For the Allies on the other hand, medium altitude level bombing with medium bombers against fixed airfields makes sense, and are more conducive to using formations.
Last, Gavagai, I respect your opinion. Don't make this a right or wrong issue. I am a CM that designs these events, and I can tell you that drones are necessary when appropriate.
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I know the order in which to attack bombers, and I also know to attack the lead if the drones are warping. In fact, that's exactly what I did on Friday.
To me, it's not merely a playability issue, it's an eye sore; an embarrassment. Every time I see drones warping around in this game I feel a little more foolish than normal for putting effort into it. I hope that sheds light on my opinion. Thanks for listening.
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WE (13Th MPG) were tasked with the defense of A49. We had 14 109F's and our sister squad was The Blind Bats, also with 109's. After fighting the 18k wind gusts' we got great intel from zoozoo of the J/J's. 'B25's otw ' 20 sets, with spit and hurri escorts.' The 13th had alt, and dived on the 25's with some success, hitting them as they were dropping over the field. Was a great battle, as we mixed in-and- out of the formations chewing at their wingroots and tails. Want to thank Mbailey and his boys for the help. Was fun! See you guys next week.. Tuk151 Co 13TH MPG :salute
Thanks Tuk, was a great time flying with the 13MPG. Great bunch of guys. We really tore'em up this week. I dont think any allies left the skies of A49, and if they did i guarentee they were full of holes.
The Blind Bats numbers were a little low this week, but we still managed to hold our own. Great intel from zoozoo <S> thanks for the heads up sir.
:salute 13MPG
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Saw a couple of comments earlier in the thread about the Hurri 2C.
Whilst its undeniably a great furballer, IMO its low top speed marginalizes it in FSOs and Scenarios.
On Friday, we were tasked with close escort to the Mongrels B25's attacking two enemy airbases. In level flight, we had about a 20 knot advantage over the B25's. Once engaged with defenders we inevitably fell behind and we're faced with the double problem of trying to disengage from enemy fighters we couldn't run away from to try and get back to bombers we couldn't catch up with.
That said, with the help of our forward fighter sweep, we did manage to get the buffs all the way to second field largely intact. It went to pieces after that. We were able to hold our own against the defenders whilst ammo lasted but we just couldn't get away from them. Most of us were picked off trying to disengage whilst bingo ammo.
As a defender, its just as problematic. It simply can't catch JU88's running at full tilt. We found this out in the BOB scenario albeit with MK 1s. At least here with the hispano's you have a chance of knocking a few of them down in the one or two passes you get before your in a futile tail chase.
I love the Hurris, but I don't think they're as effective in FSO's and scenarios as they are in the MA.