Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: gpwurzel on April 30, 2009, 06:11:44 PM
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This is something that I (for some reason) got concerned about. When roping a plane and you loop back over the top, and he's still on the way up, but obviously not going to catch you - would that count as a ho?
Asking as I got into a fight with someone in a f4u, roped and declined the shot on the way down (subsequently lost, but thats not important) - got asked why I didnt take the shot that was there, which would have won the fight (well, had I hit with it anyway :D). Curious as to opinion on whether this was a ho or not basically. The guy I was fighting was of the opinion that it was a valid shot just fyi.
Dont need a flame fest, just opinons
I've always been hesitant in taking this particular shot (not sure why, just have been) so thought I'd ask.
Thankeee in advance,
:salute
Wurzel
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Not a HO IMO. The only reason for not taking a HO shot is because it's a dangerous shot (you can get hit). If the other person can't hit you, even thought you're pointed at his face, it's a fair shot in my book.
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no ...enjoy...u earnt it :aok :salute
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It's not a HO. The guy is just living on borrowed time.
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No HO honestly if they can get shot on you while in a stall its alot of times just lucky, put yourself in the position of the plane below you which im sure everyone has been at i know if im close i just start spraying and preying to hit till my plane forces itsself over.
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No HO honestly if they can get shot on you while in a stall its alot of times just lucky, put yourself in the position of the plane below you which im sure everyone has been at i know if im close i just start spraying and preying to hit till my plane forces itsself over.
Agreed. I hate Ho's but if you nose over in a rope and he still happens to be facing you...oh well.
I've been sliding backwards, albeit briefly, still facing the guy roping me, but clearly not in control.
If he shoots me in the face at that point, it's my fault.
If you knowingly follow someone into a rope you are:
A) Absolutely sure you have as much, or more, E as he does.
B) Taking a gamble that he'll wait too long to reverse and pull a sloppy end over while you still have enough control to get the shot.
C) Dumb
D) Having a bad night, so what the heck.
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If he's still facing you when you're on your way down, it's likely that he hasn't stalled yet. I'd call it a HO, unless it's clear that he isn't in control.
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I suck so bad i shoot every chance i get.. I only ho if its more of them then me... But in that instance i say it wouldnt be a ho either. :salute
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(http://www.jaunted.com/files/admin/madonna_ropes.jpg)
Impossible to resist I know.
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Not a HO in my opinion either. I got in a disagreement about this with a..erm...fine gentleman named 'Damaged' a few nights ago. He was picking in an La-7, so I followed him up with a 38. He came back down on me and I blasted him. Of course he wasn't pleased about the apparent "HO" but in that situation he's at just as much fault.
Good to see what others think about it because it's definately a gray area in "game ethics"
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A HO when the only other thing you could do is nose away and give him a free shot while you sit like a duck :lol That's like complaining it's a HO when you come up for a vulch and fly into someone's forward cone, and get shot down.
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Could the plane going up have gotten his nose on you and be able to keep it on you? If not then no HO. Depending on each situation I too am sometimes hesitant on taking this shot.
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You underestimated his energy, he is still going up whilst you are coming down.
Get it right and he'll be stalling out and you'll have a lovely planform to shoot at - get it wrong and yes - he has a solution on you. You're to blame. If I was the bad guy and you offered me a shot to nothing, damn straight I'll take it!
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This is something that I (for some reason) got concerned about. When roping a plane and you loop back over the top, and he's still on the way up, but obviously not going to catch you - would that count as a ho?
Looping over the top...... not me. :D
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Since I started flying the LA7 this happens to me alot, I am only alive 75% of time after this said shot going down into them lol.
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Since I started flying the LA7 this happens to me alot, I am only alive 75% of time after this said shot going down into them lol.
Timing is everything, young padawan.
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Not a HO as sadi before, when ever i am roping someone they usually are the the point of stalling and manage to shoot back and rip my wing off. :noid
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Sometimes I like to rope someone into trying to stall me out also LOL, this seems to be the only way I ever kill an UBER pilot.
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That means that aren't UBER. They would live every time if they were. :P
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That means that aren't UBER. They would live every time if they were. :P
Jesus your quick strokes if you flew as good as you sneak in a forum reply you would be untouchable! :aok
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dam!!n read the title, and thought i was gonna see a post about something kinky.
:rofl :rofl
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Sometimes in a Rope you just can't hang up there long enough for them to stall, and 9 out of 10 times there already shooting hopping for that lucky hit. So its not a Ho its self defense.....that's my story and I'm sticking to it :D
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Roping is a delicate skill. If you do it perfectly you're coming down on your opponent when they are just flippin over and losing their guns on you. Coming down on them while they still have gunsight on you even if theyre just hanging is just sloppy :)
Either way, it's the guy hanging n spraying on his prop pretty much unable to adjust a shot that is looking like the chump here.
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no ...enjoy...u earnt it :aok :salute
+ the rest
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Its a HO it doesn't change just because your in the vertical although for some reason there seems to be more tolerance towards HOs of this kind.
Its obviously a lot harder to judge the state of control the guy your roping has whether hes run out of E or is trying to avoid ramming you.
Some people believe just because you won't play chicken with them ie you break from guns first to avoid a collision that its fair game for them to have a 'frontal shot' on you because it is technically not a HO. That kind of behaviour is as lame as a HO itself.
At this point they'll try and justify it with "but your trying to get an angles advantage on me by not playing chicken!" well of course I am you should be too! Even if you wait until the last second to duck or go to one side some people still blast you :mad:
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I just had a funny encounter where I decided to keep E-adv then rope n was subsequently accused of HOing:
http://www.4shared.com/file/102800191/1f55c6ff/thesuckho.html
text not in the film "i blind rumble?" lol.
yeehaw nice ho..
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Conversely it would not have been a HO if he'd shot you in the face on your way down...
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This is something that I (for some reason) got concerned about. When roping a plane and you loop back over the top, and he's still on the way up, but obviously not going to catch you - would that count as a ho?
The old "vertical HO" (I call it that, but its really not a "HO") is one of the most dweeby things you can do, IMO.
Its nothing more than an act of desperation and is guaranteed to get the player whacked, regardless of whether or not he can land any lucky hits.
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I don't know why everyone is so concerned about HOing, apparently it's accepted practice. I just logged off irritated after being killed 5 times in not so many more flights by cheap shot HOers, 3 of em by the same guy on initial merge. Chickensheet non-flying HOers.
:furious
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if you both got guns on each other then of course its a HO. which is fine, like all HOs its reasonable to do if you've got a significantly better chance of a killshot than the other guy. if you time it right and he's flopping around on the edge of stall while you're settled into a dive it should be an easy kill with little chance of being shot. if hes still climbing and has a stable gun platform, then its more like the classic level 50/50 HO, in which case avoid it and get advantage another way :aok
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(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb83/pacman07106/a.jpg)
Avoid Ho's at all cost!
Most ho's are on the initial merge because the ho will never stick around long enough to fight or will disengage to set up another ho.
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Nose to nose is a HO whether roped or not. I am not passing judgement, as it matters little to me. If I have a survivable gun solution I will take it. I suggest that you do the same while in the MA's.
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I take no quarter in the main arena, that is unless I’m 100% sure the enemy is a good stick and is willing to use “1v1 rules”.
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When roping, I look out the back and wait to see his plane shudder (he's fighting to keep that little nose pointed up). As soon as i see this, pull full flaps and roll it over.... By the time I get there, his guns are pointed at the ground and his six is D200 or less.
I had someone say I ho'd him two weeks ago, when I followed him up a rope (I was Ki84, he was P51)... he misjudged my climb, stalled, rolled over and pointed at me under 200 ( I still had 175 IAS)... I already had 50 rounds of 20mm out the guns on the way. He went boom. Then called me a ho shooter.
I had to laugh.
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I dont mind any fellow taking any shot on me he can get. Thats the game. The only thing I try to avoid, with any regularity either way at least, is the ram.
Sometimes cant be avoided but I try. Thats what I consider good form. Bad form is being a whiner.
In my opinion, if you had the shot and declined to take it...for whatever reason, then you screwed up
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Some interesting opinions - given whats been said, I need to learn a bit more patience, not loop over so quick and let them stall out properly, then kill them.
Thought it would be an interesting discussion.
Did I screw up by not taking the shot, probably, but ya know, I had fun in the fight and avoided taking a shot I wasnt sure was clean.
Thanks for the replies gents,
:salute
Wurzel
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This is something that I (for some reason) got concerned about. When roping a plane and you loop back over the top, and he's still on the way up, but obviously not going to catch you - would that count as a ho?
Asking as I got into a fight with someone in a f4u, roped and declined the shot on the way down (subsequently lost, but thats not important) - got asked why I didnt take the shot that was there, which would have won the fight (well, had I hit with it anyway :D). Curious as to opinion on whether this was a ho or not basically. The guy I was fighting was of the opinion that it was a valid shot just fyi.
Dont need a flame fest, just opinons
I've always been hesitant in taking this particular shot (not sure why, just have been) so thought I'd ask.
Thankeee in advance,
:salute
Wurzel
If you took the shot regardless if it was right or wrong, it would have not been up to your personal standards. So don't sweat it. Some play for the kill, some play for the fight. <S>
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I say we ban the word HO. seems to me it causes more trouble than good. j/k , or am I. If you follow a plane vert, and start to stall. Just
say oops, when the bullets come raining down. Dont go on 200 and call them a hoer to save face. :aok
Iv'e gone up the ladder guns blazing too. Just don't get mad if it turns out bad.
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If you took the shot regardless if it was right or wrong
When is taking a shot right or wrong?
In your opinion.....of course?
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Not a HO. They have no control over their plane, and they are just blind firing.
What gets me is, the people that wait untill you are just about to stall, then pull up to HO you, isn't their any other move that you can do?
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It's a HO if you are in a spit only :aok :aok
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:D :D :D Guilty as charged Shreck - but you already knew that ;)
:salute
Wurzel
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Come at me head on and I will HO you. If you don't like it, make a 180 degree turn and make it easy for me. Its a completely valid tactic. remember if you lose... DBBTMS
Infidelz
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Some interesting opinions - given whats been said, I need to learn a bit more patience, not loop over so quick and let them stall out properly, then kill them.
If you do this they are often going to be able to avoid you. Time your reversal so that they stall as you get a gun solution.This way they cannot evade. In other words, begin to come back down before they stall. If you find you 've started to come around too early cut throttle to keep from rushing down at them.... maybe drop flaps to keep flying. It's a matter of timing.
Two very short films for demonstration:
http://www.mediafire.com/?z2wmwznyd4j (http://www.mediafire.com/?z2wmwznyd4j)
http://www.mediafire.com/?jwtim3mztu5 (http://www.mediafire.com/?jwtim3mztu5)
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Its a completely valid tactic for noobs.
Infidelz
not really, but one can continue to hope they develop the skills to actually learn to fight.
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Thanks for the films Steve, will watch those once I finish this oh so boring night shift - and I get what you mean about timing.
<S>
Wurzel
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Roping is a delicate skill. If you do it perfectly you're coming down on your opponent when they are just flippin over and losing their guns on you. Coming down on them while they still have gunsight on you even if theyre just hanging is just sloppy :)
Either way, it's the guy hanging n spraying on his prop pretty much unable to adjust a shot that is looking like the chump here.
Agreed, and this can be difficult at times as E states of the two aircraft may vary widely during the manuveur.
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Roping is a delicate skill. If you do it perfectly you're coming down on your opponent when they are just flippin over and losing their guns on you. Coming down on them while they still have gunsight on you even if theyre just hanging is just sloppy :)
Either way, it's the guy hanging n spraying on his prop pretty much unable to adjust a shot that is looking like the chump here.
Timing is the key :aok
With all the Newbs coming in from the AH2 commercial Now is the time to start practicing things like these. In the past it was kind of hard to find someone with any knowledge of the physics, strategy and general SA to fall for this...hehe
I remember when i first started...can't tell you how many times I fell for the rope.
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I still do lol I'm gonna catchem this time......
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Funny how many opinions and conditions people can build into an HO.
If both can shoot at each other at same time, it is an HO... and so what? They happen.
If one does not want to squeeze the trigger in that situation, it is his choice and liberty not to do so. However, he should not expect anything from the opponent. If you fly into an HO, live (or die) with your decision and forget about it. No further discussion needed. If you die in an HO, it is your own fault, nobody else is to blame.
I wish the "dead HO horse" could rest in peace already.
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not really, but one can continue to hope they develop the skills to actually learn to fight.
lol Stephan, or should I say HO HO HO, fight a cartoon?
http://www.tinker.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123073403
The real "fighter pilots" can be read about in this link. They flew P-51s and if you read the story they closed head to head with 109s "The two P-51s turned head on into the enemy fighters firing their guns as they closed head-to-head." and Oh Nose they HO'ed them.
DBBTMS
Infidelz.
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We're all real fighter pilots in a real war?
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We're all real fighter pilots in a real war?
Yes moot. This is real, now suit up man, the future of the free world is at stake.
INFIDELz.
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Steve, those films cleared it up for me nicely, thanks fella.
See what you mean about timing now - I've got some work to do on patience etc, but hey ho - its all fun.
Thanks again,
:salute
Wurzel
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We're all real fighter pilots in a real war?
I was but it was over when I was.
Ok, nuff of that....
Why on earth would you put yourself in a position to be a HO when you roped the dude? Makes no sense.
Roping is a very simple affair once you learn how and that takes about 10 minutes.
Ren
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By not having the patience to wait for him to stall out etc etc etc.....(well, that and not knowing what the hell I'm doing :D)
Wurzel
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When is taking a shot right or wrong?
In your opinion.....of course?
Interesting question. I was once asked something very similar by a small child. Everything is an opinion. A murderer may be right in his opinion and maybe in others, but not in most. Robing a bank might be ok in some folks opinion but not in others.
What we normally consider right or wrong is what the bulk of the community considers right or wrong.
The real "fighter pilots" can be read about in this link. They flew P-51s and if you read the story they closed head to head with 109s "The two P-51s turned head on into the enemy fighters firing their guns as they closed head-to-head." and Oh Nose they HO'ed them.
This is a game! Those looking for a fight will fight..... those just looking for a kill will just kill and are not interested in the fight.
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What we normally consider right or wrong is what the bulk of the community considers right or wrong.
Isn't that how we came to owe 10 Trillion dollars? Gawd! :lol
This is a game! Those looking for a fight will fight..... those just looking for a kill will just kill and are not interested in the fight.
Interesting to note: There are old fighter pilots and there are bold fighter pilots but there ain't any old bold fighter pilots.
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I won't take this shot . i hold off until I see top of his plane . Soon as I do , i unload on em .
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Liar.. You wait till they're face down.
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Thanks Steve, after watching your films, 3 kills tonight with the rope and would of been more but my "tater" shooting isn't that good. And a side note: That 109K4 is a roping fool you can really stretch'em out with that beast, sometimes I wish it had the 20mm option. :salute
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Thanks Steve, after watching your films, 3 kills tonight with the rope and would of been more but my "tater" shooting isn't that good. And a side note: That 109K4 is a roping fool you can really stretch'em out with that beast, sometimes I wish it had the 20mm option. :salute
WTG! Now please refrain from tatering ponies with the skin I use. :aok
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WTG! Now please refrain from tatering ponies with the skin I use. :aok
:rofl I'll try my best, but if its me tatering you have better then average odds!
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I was HO'd by a 109 last night.
A 109.
:cry
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I was HO'd by a 109 last night.
A 109.
:cry
Crying victim. ^^^ Get hold of yourself and stop being victimized :p Accept your participation in HO or avoid it.
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Crying victim. ^^^ Get hold of yourself and stop being victimized :p Accept your participation in HO or avoid it.
Ok. Ill pull the trigger from now on.
You heard it here first, folks.
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:aok
Join the club.
I never "get HOed". Either I participate in an HO or I avoid it :rock
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I was HO'd by a 109 last night.
A 109.
:cry
Sorry it may have been Me. I was so exhausted after trying to get off the field at A-9 under your countries fighter cap I lifted off and you were there coming straight at me and very low so I fired and killed. We barely held that base and I popped 1 troop with my 45 after running to the town from the airfield. When fighters come down on the runway to pick someone taking off don't be suprised when you get a faceful of lead.
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Isn't that how we came to owe 10 Trillion dollars? Gawd! :lol
lol Actually no Ren. The government developed that without the peoples input. We were never allowed to see or vote on it. :aok
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lol Actually no Ren. The government developed that without the peoples input. We were never allowed to see or vote on it. :aok
the media started harping on the national debt back when Reagan was president. The people have known all along. the same "we" people keep electing these dishonest ignorant scandalous greedy SOBs term after term. When this country finally tumbles down, and it will.....i can just see all of us sitting there dumbfounded on our tulips as the dust settles looking at each other for someone else to blame.
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the media started harping on the national debt back when Reagan was president. The people have known all along. the same "we" people keep electing these dishonest ignorant scandalous greedy SOBs term after term. When this country finally tumbles down, and it will.....i can just see all of us sitting there dumbfounded on our tulips as the dust settles looking at each other for someone else to blame.
Yup that part is correct.
The main problem is the fact that everyone thinks their guy is doing a great job and all the others are bad. In fact they are all a bunch of useless individuals.
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I had a long post about the complex ethics involved in this roping situation, but then thought "to hell with it".
The only HO I find to be really debatable is on an initial H2H pass in a 1-on-1 situation. Beyond that, all's fair. And even in that situation, it still depends. Once in a while, you've just got to take the wing off that Lala. Why? "Because **** that guy for flying a Lala", that's why. :devil It's a public service.
And if you get killed going H2H with a Mossie or 110 under ANY circumstances, you had it coming.
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Sorry it may have been Me. I was so exhausted after trying to get off the field at A-9 under your countries fighter cap I lifted off and you were there coming straight at me and very low so I fired and killed. We barely held that base and I popped 1 troop with my 45 after running to the town from the airfield. When fighters come down on the runway to pick someone taking off don't be suprised when you get a faceful of lead.
Perfect example. In my book, HO'ing someone who's part of a cap horde is completely fair. There's no good reason for him to put himself in that position.
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Funny how many opinions and conditions people can build into an HO.
If both can shoot at each other at same time, it is an HO... and so what? They happen.
If one does not want to squeeze the trigger in that situation, it is his choice and liberty not to do so. However, he should not expect anything from the opponent. If you fly into an HO, live (or die) with your decision and forget about it. No further discussion needed. If you die in an HO, it is your own fault, nobody else is to blame.
I wish the "dead HO horse" could rest in peace already.
Tell me about it. I won't answer these questions anymore, because of it.
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Personally...... I can steer out of most ho's...... Cept the AK boys, as they are professionals. But whether I move out of it or not really comes down to 2 things.........
Mood
Distance to friendly base.
I ho less at enemy bases.
Tell me about it. I won't answer these questions anymore, because of it.
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Sorry it may have been Me. I was so exhausted after trying to get off the field at A-9 under your countries fighter cap I lifted off and you were there coming straight at me and very low so I fired and killed. We barely held that base and I popped 1 troop with my 45 after running to the town from the airfield. When fighters come down on the runway to pick someone taking off don't be suprised when you get a faceful of lead.
I wasn't in that dream and I wasn't fighting at A9.
This was over FT at about 8K. Co-alt, co-E, 109 v 109.
Typically, one in such a situation could expect some reasonable probability of a cold merge and a decent fight.
Now, not even the mighty Messerschmitt can be counted on to contain a worthy virtual stick. :(
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Yup that part is correct.
The main problem is the fact that everyone thinks their guy is doing a great job and all the others are bad. In fact they are all a bunch of useless individuals.
Yep. My congressman is one of the few honest sensible people on capitol hill. I vote for him every time :aok
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I wasn't in that dream and I wasn't fighting at A9.
This was over FT at about 8K. Co-alt, co-E, 109 v 109.
Typically, one in such a situation could expect some reasonable probability of a cold merge and a decent fight.
Now, not even the mighty Messerschmitt can be counted on to contain a worthy virtual stick. :(
OK different Dream and different Chap. Good luck finding a fair fight. :D