Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: PFactorDave on May 01, 2009, 08:17:52 AM
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I've been finding, as of late, that using a scissors type movement to turn the tables on an opponent is a good way to get out of a potentially bad situation. My problem is that I'm not exactly sure how to get the scissors started.
Can any of you more experienced sticks talk about the various different types of scissors (rolling, flat, vertical, etc) and what a pilot wishing to initiate a scissors should be watching for (as far as what his opponent is doing) and what he should do to get the scissors started...
Thanks in advance.
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Scissors are obviously a defensive move so there are a lot of variables. A few things come into play.
1) Closure rate
The higher the closure rate the easier it is to force a scissor up to a point
2) Orientation of bogeys lift vector prior to scissor
A lot of the scissors effectiveness is based on getting "out of sync". By creating a scenario where the other guy pulls lead prior the actual scissor you can get him leaning one way when your intent is to go the other way. This leads naturally into the how do I start question.
Normally given time I'll porpoise up just a bit in the 2.0 range...just enough so the con sees I know he's there. Then at about 1.4 or so I'll go into a gentle descending turn with cut throttle. Why these distances....I want him close and I want a quick read and react.
I want the con to think...he see's me, he realizes he cant go up....here's his move....shot, Shot, SHOT
If the con is "flying the gun sight" I'm 75%+ of the way to a guns solution of my own. So your initial set up move has to be close enough and gentle enough to create this effect. As soon as he "pulls lead I drop the nose a bit more and then start the scissor back the other way. The initial reverse should be flat or very slightly nose down IMO. The goal here is present minimal threat and keep him in the gun sight. A good stick will often simply deny the scissor and refuse the bait. The "better" the shot picture the more fish you get. The flat aspect of the scissor is really all about creating closure in E state...if he does try and get slow to "win" the flat scissor you've got him. The goal isn't really to get slower...its to get him out of sync but maintain his aggressiveness. So after 1 or 2 reverses you switch from a flat scissor (purely defensive) to a rolling scissor which is really offensive. If you do it right the rolling aspect hides the angles enough so the bogey doesnt realize he's lost till you pop out 400 on his 6. The key is to initiate the rolling aspect while he's out of sync and slightly ahead of your 3/9 line and still +E.....
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When your flying a plane with marginal stability, like the 51, use the snap stall charateristics to reverse your turn. This is faster by far than a aileron/rudder reversal.
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When your flying a plane with marginal stability, like the 51, use the snap stall charateristics to reverse your turn. This is faster by far than a aileron/rudder reversal.
1- can you explain in more detail what you mean by the P51 being a plane with Marginal stability, please
2- can you describe in a more detail what you mean by "reversing your turn? and also how "snap stall characteristics" help to "reverse turns"
3- please define a aileron/rudder reversal in more detail
I am trying to understand your post and how it relates to the O.P.'s opening post........
Thank You in Advance
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1. In general the P-51(or 190 etc) will drop a wing when you push it too hard in a turn. All planes do this of course but some more than others. The 190 and P-51 are planes that standout as they stall and drop a wing easier. The mossi is another example of the CoG instability. Iguess in terms of flight characteristics the 51 with a full Aux tank is my idea of marginal stability.
2. In a flat scissors as you usually pull a 180 roll to reverse the other direction. When I do a flat scissor (direction) reversal I elevator up, rudder left/right and stall the plane. It drops a wing and will (snap) roll extremely fast towards the stalled wing (correct or not I use the term snap-stall). As the plane rolls towards the direction you intend to go you opposite rudder and elevator down. With planes like the P-51 (not so much the 190) it will produce a greater degree/second roll rate vs a pure aileron roll.
3.Aileron/rudder reversal simply applies to the 180 turn in a flat scissor. Aileron/rudder means just using aileron and rudder to roll the aircraft. \
<S>
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I'm not entirely sure I see a lot of advantage here in a true scissor. The scissor is not entirely rate of turn dependent....roll rate is a big factor. A plane like a zero or early 109 is very stiff at speeds in the 300 mph range so if you can stall a tip under control then maybe it would help...but a ponies roll rate is pretty good. The real key to a scissors is timing and speed management. Nothing fancy is really required, your not beating the other plane. Your really getting in the other pilots head, a sustained scissors is a sign you did it wrong or the other guy is very good. Normally a scissor is just that...one maybe 2 flat at the max to one or 2 rolling. If its not over then your in a true fight and at that point the last thing you want to do is scrub of E with chickenfeather stuff. You need that E to maintain the 3D spiral width (its flying a long way without going forward a lot that wins a rolling scissor).
Now once you percieve that your in act being forced out front then I can see using this type of move to alter the timing or just prior to the other guys shot window...
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I've been finding, as of late, that using a scissors type movement to turn the tables on an opponent is a good way to get out of a potentially bad situation. My problem is that I'm not exactly sure how to get the scissors started.
Humbles post is very good. Just like any dogfighting scenario the answer is "it depends"
But you mention turn the tables on an opponent so I'm assuming there is somebody homing in on you from a superior position.
Scenerio-Lets say there is somebody coming in on you from your high six with slightly more speed which is common especially in multi-con engagements. Pull up in similar direction of his lift vector to try and force an overshoot: This takes some timing and ideally you want him shooting so he commits to the turn. This 'pull up' is done at close ranges 600-800 depending on closure rate and type of plane he is flying. As soon as you see him starting to over shoot 'commence a 180 roll' and pull up again. You will see him coming in very close to you and may have a 'snap shot' gun opportunity. Your energy states are very close now and his options are to run with you very close on his six or turn back into you and enter the 'scissors of death'
Situation: I have tunnel vision on a P39 in the 109K4 while a P38 is on my six at 800 with slightly more E than me.. I'm a goner right? I apply above technique and am able to 'turn the tables'
After this engagement there is a yak BnZ'ing me and try above technique but he doesn't over commit and he is able to maintain a decent position but I did have a 'snapshot' opportunity on him.
VIDEO http://www.mediafire.com/?gqii4lzktwo (http://www.mediafire.com/?gqii4lzktwo)
Everyone's worst nightmare scenerio: In the 109K4 lollygagging around probably looking for bombers who will kill me anyway and I don't notice the spit16 creeping up to me unti he is less than 800 on my 6. I mini split S to get separation then apply a small dive so our E almost equalizes as he chases me. I start a small turn so he bleeds E and apply above technique to 'turn the tables' and enter mini scissors where I get kill shot like 10ft off my nose with a 30mm explosion that my engine disagrees with.
VIDEO http://www.mediafire.com/?2wn4mrdiyj5 (http://www.mediafire.com/?2wn4mrdiyj5)
So these are 2 situations where I had disadvantage and turn it around. Simple way to practice these outside of the training arena are fly around low until you get somebody to dive on you.
If you ever wanna practice this or anything else, let me know. I go to training arena often to learn new things and to help others improve gameplay.
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Humble hits the nail on the head, these moves are very timing, situation dependent. Def. look up Strong 10 he is a great guy to fight and learn from and don't make him get in an IL2 LMFAO :) Also look up any one of AOMs 109 jocks and they will show you some cool stuff. AGENT 360s K4 training vids have a number of scissor situations in them that can be applied to any plane with a bit of modification and are a must watch for defensive moves.
Here are some more films of scissor action
the flat scissor as a last ditch. with better sticks who know this trap you may have to combine a number of other moves to prevent you from being yo yoed to death. in a multi con situation this burns alot of e so usually you'll make the 1st six fly by but number 7 will get ya. use with care LOL!
http://www.mediafire.com/?mlnzjzrwwzi
For the rolling scissors a good way to initiate it is via a double immelman merge. In this film I fight Red959 to the death in K4s. I blow a couple oppritunities but the scissor fight is alot of fun. Make sure you manage you throttle decreasing as you go down and kickin it in as you go up. Flaps are a necessity.
http://www.mediafire.com/?nznzlm0onw2
Another move I like that winds up in a rolling scissors sometimes or allows you to take a shot is what I dub the sunsfan D1 move cause he kindly shared it with me, its also similar to the one strong mentions...it's rather simple and involves a higher con on your six. As he pursues you wait a bit and pull into him vertically so he cant take the shot then roll your nose around to him pop your flaps and initiate a scissors if you are near co E or take the shot if you can
http://www.mediafire.com/?3ymmgymyn0g
and another
http://www.mediafire.com/?nuynyvzjmnd
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1. you have to learn to fly looking backwards. While looking back watch for a lag behind your tail. This means it looks like he is falling down if your going up. At the moment he goes to lag pursuit REVERSE. As he crosses your tail IMMEDIATLY reverse....you are now in scissors.
2. you have to create a speed difference. You either go slower or faster. Either one. Going slower is better....do this by reducing throttle and pulling hard G's...this works best if you drag to a right flat turn...watch for the lag off your tail then go up and over....you are now in scissors
3. Use the snap roll to "snap" your plane over 180 deg....if he follows....after the third turn...you are now in scissors.
4. You can reverse CANOPY UP (typical) or CANOPY DOWN. Canopy down means you roll over like a split S but continue to roll so you now turn the opposite way..exactly the same as you would doing it canopy up. THis method will keep your energy. Canopy up robs your energy.
5. The closer you can draw them into guns range the better chance you have of making a reversal that they can not extend away from.
6. The LONG RANGE SCISSOR - Plane comes in from high dive. You KNOW you can not out run him. You can turn into and under effectivly exiting the fight. OR...you can turn 90 deg into him...allow closure off your wing tip ( keep him on your wing tip)...let him close to almost gun range ( d800) then immediatly reverse the other way ONLY 90 deg. Let him climb UP and OVER. Keep your wing on him. When he comes down you pull up....you are now in a close rolling scissor.
7. The RUDDER SCISSOR - Throttle to idle. full right rudder and skid hard to right. slight roll to right....hard left rudder and skid to left NOSE UP....hard right rudder nose up and skid right. In this case you are "inviting" a scissor fight. If he exits by going up or fly past make a 90 turn off his tail and extend. Wait for him to complete the vert turn and come in...when his nose is down turn into HIM FOR A MOMENT OF CLOSURE and THEN EARLY TURN UP PURPOSLY CORSSING HIS GUNS. Roll over and you are now in scissors.
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I really appreciate the posts so far, and the films too. I'm looking forward to going through them. :salute
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You have received a lot of really good specific advice so far. Just from a general standpoint, my advice is to always know the reason why you are initiating scissors. I've seen a lot of clueless pilots just start scissoring on me without a specific reason in mind, other than they "think" it's going to throw me off somehow. All they are doing is bleeding E and making my shot easier. Your scissors manuever should always be a direct extension of how you are either going to
1) spoil a shot,
2) or neutralize an enemy E advantage,
3) or manipulate angles to get a brief snapshot.
One of those three. Maybe there's another that I'm not yet advanced enough to be privy to, but start with those three.
Often, when you are doing one of the above, you won't have to think about when to initiate scissors, because it will come naturally as a defensive-------->offensive manuever.
I was going to explain a bit about the importance of watching your bandit in initiating scissors, but Agent360 covered it already. Read below, he's absolutely right.
1. you have to learn to fly looking backwards. While looking back watch for a lag behind your tail. This means it looks like he is falling down if your going up. At the moment he goes to lag pursuit REVERSE. As he crosses your tail IMMEDIATLY reverse....you are now in scissors.
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It's kind of a crutch, but starting off with a lateral offset always helps.
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It's kind of a crutch, but starting off with a lateral offset always helps.
Assume that I have know idea what you mean. (I think I might know what you mean, but I've decided to try not to assume things that I'm not certain of)
Can you elaborate on what you mean, and how it is a crutch, and what would be preferable.
Thanks you in advance.
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Assume that I have know idea what you mean. (I think I might know what you mean, but I've decided to try not to assume things that I'm not certain of)
Can you elaborate on what you mean, and how it is a crutch, and what would be preferable.
Thanks you in advance.
Think of "football" & a "lateral"
to lateral they need to be off to your side a bit and behind you........ hope this gives ya a more mental picture
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Lateral offset means they have to turn to be pointed at you, to keep up with your relative (lateral) motion. High bogie dives in from high 6 > you turn to one side > they can only get a shot if they also turn >>> you're both already on the way to start scissoring. Better than waiting for them by flying dead ahead and then trying to scissor once they're in guns range, because from that lined-up disposition you've yet to un-sync yourself and the bogie, which you need (everything else being equal) for your scissoring to succeed.
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The concept of establishing or maintaining an offset is important in any angle oriented ACM...going back to my 1st post looking to appear to present an easy shot solution is an attempt to manufacture an offset by getting the bogey to lead on the initial "break turn".
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1. you have to learn to fly looking backwards. While looking back watch for a lag behind your tail. This means it looks like he is falling down if your going up. At the moment he goes to lag pursuit REVERSE. As he crosses your tail IMMEDIATLY reverse....you are now in scissors.
2. you have to create a speed difference. You either go slower or faster. Either one. Going slower is better....do this by reducing throttle and pulling hard G's...this works best if you drag to a right flat turn...watch for the lag off your tail then go up and over....you are now in scissors
3. Use the snap roll to "snap" your plane over 180 deg....if he follows....after the third turn...you are now in scissors.
4. You can reverse CANOPY UP (typical) or CANOPY DOWN. Canopy down means you roll over like a split S but continue to roll so you now turn the opposite way..exactly the same as you would doing it canopy up. THis method will keep your energy. Canopy up robs your energy.
5. The closer you can draw them into guns range the better chance you have of making a reversal that they can not extend away from.
6. The LONG RANGE SCISSOR - Plane comes in from high dive. You KNOW you can not out run him. You can turn into and under effectivly exiting the fight. OR...you can turn 90 deg into him...allow closure off your wing tip ( keep him on your wing tip)...let him close to almost gun range ( d800) then immediatly reverse the other way ONLY 90 deg. Let him climb UP and OVER. Keep your wing on him. When he comes down you pull up....you are now in a close rolling scissor.
7. The RUDDER SCISSOR - Throttle to idle. full right rudder and skid hard to right. slight roll to right....hard left rudder and skid to left NOSE UP....hard right rudder nose up and skid right. In this case you are "inviting" a scissor fight. If he exits by going up or fly past make a 90 turn off his tail and extend. Wait for him to complete the vert turn and come in...when his nose is down turn into HIM FOR A MOMENT OF CLOSURE and THEN EARLY TURN UP PURPOSLY CORSSING HIS GUNS. Roll over and you are now in scissors.
Lots of incorrect information in this post.
First, in a flat scissors the reversals should be timed with the aim of keeping the bandit lift vector 180 degrees out of phase. It really has nothing to do with where the bandit is and everything to do with his reaction to your maneuver.
Second, in a flat scissors maximum deceleration is what creates the overshoot. The reversals are a (rather desperate) attempt to spoil a guns solution while creating an overshoot.
The flat scissors is the last ditch defense when you are on the deck and the bandit is in the saddle and staying there. It is used in a very specific circumstance. Your best break turn has not created high angle off the tail and high closure and you have no altitude to use. Only then is a flat scissors appropriate.
you have to create a speed difference. You either go slower or faster. Either one. Going slower is better....do this by reducing throttle and pulling hard G's...this works best if you drag to a right flat turn...watch for the lag off your tail then go up and over....you are now in scissors
This sounds suspiciously like a lag roll reversal, not a scissors. It may quickly develop into a rolling scissors but it didn't start that way.
The Long Range Scissor and Rudder Scissor are not scissors at all.
There is one nugget of very good advice in Agent's post. When doing a flat scissors making the reversal turns by rolling in the same direction as the break is the most effective technique. If you initiate a flat scissors by executing a left break then the reversal turn should be a continuation of that left turn which will point the lift vector at the ground on its way around. But in a situation where a flat scissors is really appropriate this requires good roll rate and even better technique to stay out of terra firma. If you are doing scissors from an altitude where rolling inverted is comfortable then you are too high and probably should be choosing a different defensive strategy.
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1) an overshoot is not strictly dependent on deceleration, even in a flat scissor. The real key as stated is in the bogeys reactions to the defender and defenders adjustments.
2) The scissor should never be viewed as a "last ditch" tactic. It is in fact often the opener in a defensive E fight and can be used with great effect at 15k at 350mph or on the deck at 200mph. It is simply a guns defense vs a higher speed aggressor who has established a stable position in your rear hemisphere. As such it needs to be viewed in the context of a "bigger plan". Giving just 1 example a scissor can be used to slow a fight down in preparation for a climbing spiral defense.
3) there is no such thing as a "flat scissor" IMO. As I mentioned above many pilots "pop up" slightly initially (bad IMO most of the time){unless done early ala the greebo/blukitty reversal} when an initial nose down attitude maximizes the effectiveness of the move. Since the scissor is flown in reaction the the aggressor the vertical component is actually driven by his flight path...however generically its safe to say that a flat initial move almost always leads to a "rolling scissor" at some point.
4) There is no such thing a "lag roll" executed from the defensive position since lag, lead and true are pursuit terms. Agent is trying to answer the actual question posed. How, when and why to execute a scissor. His description is very much an accurate (IMO) attempt at trying to articulate a way to start a rolling scissor.
This an old clip but it might help to illustrate how a scissor can be used anywhere within the context of a fight.
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/funwithkitchen%20utensils.ahf
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Lots of incorrect information in this post.
With all due respect, Dawger, you have no idea what you are talking about.
First, in a flat scissors the reversals should be timed with the aim of keeping the bandit lift vector 180 degrees out of phase. It really has nothing to do with where the bandit is and everything to do with his reaction to your maneuver.
There is no “180 deg out of phase” in a scissor of any kind. The amount of deg of turn is at most 45 deg or your not in scissors. 180 deg of turn constitutes a turn for merge. Continuous merging is NOT scissors. The way or maneuver that you choose to INITIATE the scissor has everything to do with where he is and NOTHING to do with what he does. What he does AFTER you initiate the scissor is what matters. He either chooses to stay in or exit. If he stays in then the scissor starts.
Second, in a flat scissors maximum deceleration is what creates the overshoot. The reversals are a (rather desperate) attempt to spoil a guns solution while creating an overshoot.
If you do not properly scissor the con can simply cut throttle and ride along behind you. However, if you have kept your speed and are properly scissoring and he cuts to stay behind you can exit out and out run him or go over the top for a nice kill shot.
“Maximum decelerations” is NOT what creates the overshoot. The whole idea of scissors is to maintain your current air speed while flying a shorter forward flight path. You attempt to keep all your airspeed but fly a path that reduces your forward movement on a strait line. If you draw a curving line like a snake and then draw the same line but with sharper turns on the curves the line with the sharper curves wins.
I great example of this is the famous “slow bike race”. I do this with the kids on my block all the time. We all start on the line. The object is to be the one who finishes last without falling over or touching the ground with your feet. The only way to be last is to make sharper turns while MAINTAINING enough momentum to keep riding. If you make easy turns and I make sharper ones you will in effect go faster than me and eventually be in front.
Now this last part is just funny….”desperate” attempt to spoil guns….LOL. Well then I guess we should just fly strait and give up.
The flat scissors is the last ditch defense when you are on the deck and the bandit is in the saddle and staying there. It is used in a very specific circumstance. Your best break turn has not created high angle off the tail and high closure and you have no altitude to use. Only then is a flat scissors appropriate.
Here is where we get to the “totally incorrect” part.
Scissors are NOT a defensive or as you put it “last ditch defense” move. ANYTIME, I repeat…ANYTIME you see an opponent purposely initiate scissors you are dealing with either one of two things. Someone who has no clue or someone who is going to kill you.
Given two equal pilots the fight will ALWAYS end up in scissors. Given two un equal pilots the best one will initiate scissors and kill the other one….and you can put that in your sig line too.
A pilot who just “yanks and banks” is not in scissors. One must learn to recognize the difference between scissors and panic.
This sounds suspiciously like a lag roll reversal, not a scissors. It may quickly develop into a rolling scissors but it didn't start that way.
A “lag roll reversal” is not started in front of someone. That is a move against a hard breaking con you are BEHIND. It is also knows as a “roll away” and is also a counter to a properly initiated scissor…more on that later if anyone wants to ask.
The Long Range Scissor and Rudder Scissor are not scissors at all.
EHHHHHHHHH…..WRONG.
First “long range scissor” and “rudder scissor” are “my” terms I use to describe specific WAYS to start an offensive scissor. If you read it more than once and think about it you will see how these moves FORCE an opponent who STAYS IN into scissors. One can always EXIT out 90 deg, yo yo and come back in…but that is another story.
If you…or anyone for that matter doubt the effectiveness of my scissor moves I will be glad to be proved wrong in the DA.
There is one nugget of very good advice in Agent's post. When doing a flat scissors making the reversal turns by rolling in the same direction as the break is the most effective technique. If you initiate a flat scissors by executing a left break then the reversal turn should be a continuation of that left turn which will point the lift vector at the ground on its way around. But in a situation where a flat scissors is really appropriate this requires good roll rate and even better technique to stay out of terra firma. If you are doing scissors from an altitude where rolling inverted is comfortable then you are too high and probably should be choosing a different defensive strategy.
“When doing a flat scissors making the reversal turns by rolling in the same direction as the break is the most effective technique.” This is NOT a scissor move. This is called a barrel roll. And it is not what I said to do. You must REVERSE the turn the opposite way not continue with the turn into a barrel roll. Although this may be effective on creating an overshoot against a con with a huge speed advantage it has no use against an opponent you are scissoring with.
Now to the “flat scissors” thing. ALL fights end up in some kind of scissor. Without a scissor we have a simple break turn and kill shot or a simple exit out for alt. ANY TIME you engage for more than two turns your in fact in scissors.
There are many types of scissors….flat, rolling, vertical, spiral….and the scissor reversals such as the tork roll, stalling turn, tail slide, slice back…on and on. They ALL involve some type or scissor move.
Agent360
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A “lag roll reversal” is not started in front of someone. That is a move against a hard breaking con you are BEHIND. It is also knows as a “roll away” and is also a counter to a properly initiated scissor…more on that later if anyone wants to ask.
I'd like to ask. Can you please discuss this in more detail for me? I am trying to get a handle on how to use scissors and any and all information is prescious to me. Plus, I am of the firm belief that threads that have these types of discussions are really the only worthwhile threads on the forums and would like to keep the discussion on topic and moving forward for the benefit of myself and any others who, like me, are trying to learn something here.
Thanks :salute
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1st there is no such thing as a "lag roll reversal" since a lag roll can only be preformed by the aggressor. If you can recall the opening scene trailer for BaBa Blacksheep the trailing Corsair preforms a lag roll vs the zeke in front. The purpose of the lag roll is to create a flight path seperation that prevents an overshoot by rolling in the opposite direction of the bogey's turn. In effect your trying to give the target some additional room so you dont overshoot. It's designed to minimize the AoT (gain angles) while reducing E to control closure. Basically its a counter to the scissor or break turn. Think of it as a high yoyo away from the con...but instead of establishing a plane and then pulling thru in a true climbing turn you continue the rolling move inverted....then at some point as you continue to roll you pull thru back to the bogeys new flight path. The "lag" refers to the execution of the roll (and therefor placement of lift vector AWAY from the bogeys flight path). As you roll thru you actually place your lift vector ahead of the con (but out of plane to him) and can pull thru in lead, true or lag pursuit as needed.
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Agent, would you be willing to work with me on scissors in DA sometime soon? I can be on after about 5pm EST anytime...would greatly appreciate the assistance!
<S> Clonk
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Please check this link out. It has graphics and explanations...very short and to the point.
http://combataircraft.com/tactics/index.aspx (http://combataircraft.com/tactics/index.aspx)
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1st there is no such thing as a "lag roll reversal" since a lag roll can only be preformed by the aggressor. If you can recall the opening scene trailer for BaBa Blacksheep the trailing Corsair preforms a lag roll vs the zeke in front. The purpose of the lag roll is to create a flight path seperation that prevents an overshoot by rolling in the opposite direction of the bogey's turn. In effect your trying to give the target some additional room so you dont overshoot. It's designed to minimize the AoT (gain angles) while reducing E to control closure. Basically its a counter to the scissor or break turn. Think of it as a high yoyo away from the con...but instead of establishing a plane and then pulling thru in a true climbing turn you continue the rolling move inverted....then at some point as you continue to roll you pull thru back to the bogeys new flight path. The "lag" refers to the execution of the roll (and therefor placement of lift vector AWAY from the bogeys flight path). As you roll thru you actually place your lift vector ahead of the con (but out of plane to him) and can pull thru in lead, true or lag pursuit as needed.
Can I ask how fast is the roll performed? A nice easy roll, or are you whipping through it?
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A lag roll is begun from a a starting position of lead pursuit, even extreme lead pursuit. A bandit behind the 3-9 line would be considered "extreme lead". It is quite possible, in fact desirable to lag roll a bandit behind you.
I have a film where I do a slow motion lag roll reversal on a bandit that is behind my 3-9 line right here in fact.
Slow Motion Lag Roll on rear quarter bandit (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston//film%20library/lag%20displacement%20roll.ahf)
Of course, one can always continue to be heartily confused by Agent's misapplication of terminology. It doesn't mean he isn't a good stick, it just means he has no clue what he is doing is called.
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A lag roll is begun from a a starting position of lead pursuit, even extreme lead pursuit. A bandit behind the 3-9 line would be considered "extreme lead". It is quite possible, in fact desirable to lag roll a bandit behind you.
I have a film where I do a slow motion lag roll reversal on a bandit that is behind my 3-9 line right here in fact.
Slow Motion Lag Roll on rear quarter bandit (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston//film%20library/lag%20displacement%20roll.ahf)
Of course, one can always continue to be heartily confused by Agent's misapplication of terminology. It doesn't mean he isn't a good stick, it just means he has no clue what he is doing is called.
I don't want to get into an argument here, but a few comments are in order. Your clip is not really a lag roll IMO and its certainly not executed from a defensive position. Dedalos is below and "behind" you but totally defensive. No question you use the vertical and a roll (I'd call in more of a barrel roll then a lag roll) to establish a position above and behind (so its accomplishing the same thing as a lag roll in the sense your creating closure and angular gain) Ded has good SA and plays the hand he's delt forcing an overshoot in the vertical (if I play it out in my mind) and setting up a -E rolling scissors if you forced the action.
To be candid agent knows a bit more about ACM then you appear to (again just one persons opinion). A barrel roll guns defense is not a "lag roll" and a +E manuever executed from a position above and in front is not IMO a "lag roll" either. If pressed I'd call that a vector roll attack...
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Can I ask how fast is the roll performed? A nice easy roll, or are you whipping through it?
This varies based on circumstance. The move was primarily used by 190 drivers on the axis side and jug drivers on the allied side since they had a very marginal ability to turn with the spitfire or 109. By using roll rate and the vertical they could "rotate" vs turn. The roll away at an oblique vertical angle would actually bring the planes lift vector around in fornt of the turning bogey and the pilot would use is rudder authority to pull thru. So the "rotate and pull" actually was significantly faster then the actual enemy turn rate and converted speed to stored E and then released it on the dive back out.
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I've been finding, as of late, that using a scissors type movement to turn the tables on an opponent is a good way to get out of a potentially bad situation. My problem is that I'm not exactly sure how to get the scissors started.
Can any of you more experienced sticks talk about the various different types of scissors (rolling, flat, vertical, etc) and what a pilot wishing to initiate a scissors should be watching for (as far as what his opponent is doing) and what he should do to get the scissors started...
Thanks in advance.
Dave, I suggest you take a look at Air Combat Basics: The Scissors Maneuver (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html) by retired USAF instructor Andy Bush, and Badboy. There's a comment from that I'd like to hilight to hopefully clear things up a bit...
The opportunity for a scissors begins with the attacker overshooting a defender’s flight path.
The short answer is you want to set up (or simply recognize one when it happens...and they do often "just happen") a flight path overshoot. The scissors begin when there is a flight path overshoot with the desired qualities, and you recognize and react to it. What are those qualities? Conveniently for me, Andy once addressed that in a post...
The situation begins with the attacker overshooting the defender's six at fairly close range. The defender wants to reverse to go on the offensive, but he is unsure if this is a good idea. Why would it not be?
Because, by reversing, the defender may be solving the attacker's overshoot...it may be smarter for the defender to continue his hard defensive turn. It all depends on how the attacker overshoots.
The attacker's overshoot will have three main characteristics that the defender must assess. One is the angle off that the attacker has when crossing the defender's flight path...high or low. The second is the speed or rate that the attacker crosses that flight path...fast or slow. And the last is the magnitude of the attacker's forward velocity relative to the defender...in other words, his closure.
To visualize this, imagine using one of the aft looking views. You see the bandit sliding across your six as you turn hard into his gun attack.
Your first concern is his angle off. Use his fuselage alignment as a measure of this. If you are looking pretty much at his nose, down the fuselage, then the angle off is low, the bandit is pointed mostly at you. But if you are looking at more of a planform picture and the bandit is pointed well to the outside of the turn, then the angle off is high.
You want to see high angle off.
Next, consider his rate of movement across your six. He is either moving fast across your six, or not.
You want to see fast movement.
Finally, you consider his closure. This is particularly true of low angle off situations. Is it high or low?
You want high closure.
Higher angle off...fast overshoot speed...and high closure. All of these will tend to move the bandit to the outside of the turn and forward towards the defender's 3/9 line. This then creates the turning room needed for the defender to reverse.
Lastly, there are two kinds of reversals into the scissors...fast and slow.
A fast reversal is used when the bandit overshoots with high closure. The bandit's speed is going to carry him to the outside of the defender's turn as well as moving him forward. The defender can unload, roll approximately 180 degrees to orient his lift vector on or behind the bandit, and then pull into the bandit.
A slow reversal is used when the bandit overshoots with relatively high angle off but with low closure...or with a lower angle off but high closure. In this situation, the defender wants to remain loaded up while he rolls. This helps in forcing the bandit forward on the defender's 3/9 line. This roll is usually done by holding the G of the defensive turn while using lots of aileron and rudder to roll. Note that beaucoup energy is lost doing this, so the defender is really commiting himself to a last ditch fight.
Once the roll is complete, the defender pulls to the bandit's "high six". He looks for the chance to lead his next reversal with a lead turn...it's this lead turn that often wins the scissors.
Hope that isn't too confusing...if so, please point out the sticky parts and I'll try again!
Andy
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Andy Bush ]
Hope that helps.
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1. you have to learn to fly looking backwards. While looking back watch for a lag behind your tail. This means it looks like he is falling down if your going up. At the moment he goes to lag pursuit REVERSE. As he crosses your tail IMMEDIATLY reverse....you are now in scissors.
2. you have to create a speed difference. You either go slower or faster. Either one. Going slower is better....do this by reducing throttle and pulling hard G's...this works best if you drag to a right flat turn...watch for the lag off your tail then go up and over....you are now in scissors
3. Use the snap roll to "snap" your plane over 180 deg....if he follows....after the third turn...you are now in scissors.
4. You can reverse CANOPY UP (typical) or CANOPY DOWN. Canopy down means you roll over like a split S but continue to roll so you now turn the opposite way..exactly the same as you would doing it canopy up. THis method will keep your energy. Canopy up robs your energy.
5. The closer you can draw them into guns range the better chance you have of making a reversal that they can not extend away from.
6. The LONG RANGE SCISSOR - Plane comes in from high dive. You KNOW you can not out run him. You can turn into and under effectivly exiting the fight. OR...you can turn 90 deg into him...allow closure off your wing tip ( keep him on your wing tip)...let him close to almost gun range ( d800) then immediatly reverse the other way ONLY 90 deg. Let him climb UP and OVER. Keep your wing on him. When he comes down you pull up....you are now in a close rolling scissor.
7. The RUDDER SCISSOR - Throttle to idle. full right rudder and skid hard to right. slight roll to right....hard left rudder and skid to left NOSE UP....hard right rudder nose up and skid right. In this case you are "inviting" a scissor fight. If he exits by going up or fly past make a 90 turn off his tail and extend. Wait for him to complete the vert turn and come in...when his nose is down turn into HIM FOR A MOMENT OF CLOSURE and THEN EARLY TURN UP PURPOSLY CORSSING HIS GUNS. Roll over and you are now in scissors.
I would like to clarify a few things from my original post quoted above.
First the initial question was "...what he should do to get the scissors started" from an OFFENSIVE point...I think PFactorDave is looking at scissors as an offensive move not as a way to get out of guns and run.
So my post was written to show a few ways of doing this.
The way I fly is to bait another plane into engaging. The trick is to offer enough bait to get them to commit. Sort of like trapping a raccoon. But once you have that Raccoon in the cage you have to make sure your trap is made in such a way that he can not get out or escape.
This is the very essence of how I use scissoring....bait the trap....set it up....then spring the trap and CATCH my game.
Getting a plane who has perfect alt and speed over you to engage into a close turn fight or to at least commit enough to be caught is not an easy thing to do. Typically people just hard break turn and let the bandit overshoot and climb away. All this does is subject you to continuous high speed gun passes.
The long range scissor:
A term coined by Agent360 to describe how to set a scissor trap on a bandit who has superior alt and speed. The method in the beggining is NOT scissors. It is a method designed to draw the bandit into scissors in such a way that he can not escape without having guns on him. The method relies on pulling ANGLES in such a way as to LEAD (NOT as in lead turn...but as in getting him to follow) the bandit around in a series of 90 deg ARCS (not circles) that begin to converge. At this point you are in effect scissoring but the bandit doesnt know it yet. You are actually flying a very loose kind of rolling scissor with the intent of creating closure and reducing seperation. Further, I am not trying to gain his six yet, only to closing the seperation.
I say "lead" because I am presenting favorable angles to the bandit....and flying so that the bandit becomes greedy and sees potential gun solutions.
The basis of the simple leading around is to reduce the bandits seperation down to nothing. This is not done by slowing down. If one slows down doing this then the bandit can keep his seperation and easily go up for more gun passes.
Once I have the bandit commited and reduced the closure it is now time to begin the scissor. One can not start a scissor without the bandit willing to commit to close guns. To do that you have to get there first and that is what the long range scissor all about. Once you have eliminated the seperation and created closure for the bandit behind your 3-9 line you can begin to scissor. The more angle of tail ( the farther the bandit is off to your side) the bandit is when you start your first scissor turn the better. It is imperative you don't allow the bandit to saddle up on your direct six. If that happens then I use the "rudder scissor".
The whole reason for doing this is to force a bandit intent on high speed gun passes into a situation where he can not simply climb away or dive away.
The rudder scissor:
To keep this in context we will contiue with everything that has happened in the long range scissor.
For a moment let us assume you have either made a mistake by misjudging alt and speed or you are dealing with an expert pilot who fails to fall for any of the tricks and is now pulling or diving directly onto your six with SLOW closure. In moments he will be in gun range at d400.
IF you attempt a simple break turn or a climb you will get cut off and shot. If you barrel roll he can simply follow.
Now is the time to invite him into a rolling scissor.
I describe how to use the rudder to start this. Because the bandit is very close on your six and in guns you can not simply break turn into scissors as the bandit will simply ride his throttle and get continuous guns on you every time you scissor turn.
The process starts by using the rudder to "skid turn". Skidding makes the plane appear to fly a gentle turn when it is actually flying strait. Think of when you land too fast...you use hard rudder to slow down..your plane is nosed to one side but you continue to fly STRAIT down the runway. When you are slow enough you ease off the rudder and your nose is strait and you land.
I begin the hard rudder and point the nose slightly UP. This now presents to the bandit a difficult gun solution and starts the closure by rapidly reducing airspeed. At this point the bandit is thinking..."aint no freaken way im letting you get away" and chops his throttle to say behind you. He will probably rudder hard and try to keep guns which is exactly what you want.
The nose up part is to keep your nose up. If you allow your nose to drop you will gain airspeed and the bandit will just stay behind you.
Now we begin the rudder turns as described. We are now simply rocking the plane left and right. We are creating very shallow angles and are beggining to get a true scissor started. It is the same thing as if you are break turning at high speed. But at this point we have to make the turns angles very small....about 5 deg or so. With each rudder reverse I get the nose up more and roll more.
At this point I must point out that this maneuver is done very rapidly....left right left right. It is not slow like in a typical fast moving scissor.
With each rudder turn I am pulling more and more angles on each reversing turn. At first the bandit sees a jinkiing plane and cant quite get his bullets to hit because my plane is actually flying strait and he thinks its in a turn so he leads off to the side and up....and he misses.
Withing seconds the bandit is out of sync because he is ROLLING to get guns. I am not rolling but rudder turning.
At the moment the bandit make the mistake of Rolling over or up is when you release your rudder and pull hard into him dropping your flaps.
If you have done it correctly you will now be in a slow rolling scissor...at this point it is up to you to judge the angles and pick an oppurtunity to drop in behind or make a crossing shot.
I hope this clears up any "slang" terms I may have introduced.
Agent360
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Air Combat Basics: The Scissors Maneuver (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html)
For the purpose of this article, the scissors is a defensive BFM maneuver. There is no such thing as an offensive scissors. When flown as a defensive maneuver, the scissors is a response to an attacker’s position…the scissors is a result of an attacker’s failure to control overtake and/or angle off.
Why the emphasis? Simply because some folks seem to think that a scissors is a maneuver that you can initiate against an opponent. It’s the old "what came first…the chicken or the egg?" In this case…in our discussion…the answer is clear. The bandit’s position and maneuvering potential comes first…the scissors is only a counter to that bandit’s BFM error.
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1st there is no such thing as a "lag roll reversal" since a lag roll can only be preformed by the aggressor. If you can recall the opening scene trailer for BaBa Blacksheep the trailing Corsair preforms a lag roll vs the zeke in front. The purpose of the lag roll is to create a flight path seperation that prevents an overshoot by rolling in the opposite direction of the bogey's turn. In effect your trying to give the target some additional room so you dont overshoot. It's designed to minimize the AoT (gain angles) while reducing E to control closure. Basically its a counter to the scissor or break turn. Think of it as a high yoyo away from the con...but instead of establishing a plane and then pulling thru in a true climbing turn you continue the rolling move inverted....then at some point as you continue to roll you pull thru back to the bogeys new flight path. The "lag" refers to the execution of the roll (and therefor placement of lift vector AWAY from the bogeys flight path). As you roll thru you actually place your lift vector ahead of the con (but out of plane to him) and can pull thru in lead, true or lag pursuit as needed.
A lag roll or lag displacement roll is a barrel roll flown to get from lead pursuit to lag pursuit. A lag roll reversal is taught by every trainer in Aces High I imagine and you see them all the time in the arena. The problem is a lack of standardization of language used in the training environment. We are all generally talking about the same very small set of maneuvers but folks apply names for stuff sort of willy-nilly.
There really are very few Basic Fighter Maneuvers and every one of those is composed of various combinations of two very simple maneuvers.
A lag roll reversal is a nose high barrel roll flown when you have forced the attacker into a high angle off the tail, high closure overshoot. From that position you are in extreme lead pursuit at the moment the bandit crosses your tail in the overshoot. The barrel roll from lead pursuit to lag pursuit will put you squarely in the bandit's rear hemisphere unless he aggressively counters it.
I post an example of a lag roll reversal a little later. I guarantee it will be recognized. It has been called lots of things but it is just a simple lag roll used when you have created the excess lead pursuit required for its proper execution.
lag displacement rolls can be used on offense or defense although technically to create the conditions necessary to successfully employ a lag roll on defense you have to create the overshoot that makes it possible.
Again I think this is a semantics issue. Folks like to create lots of different names for the same set of maneuvers.
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Scissors is advanced BFM ( Basic Fighter Manuevering ) made up of 3 phases ( or 3 turningmanuevers )
- Nose to Nose Turn
- Reversal
- Lead Turn
-Nose to Nose Turn describes your breaking turn into your attacker
-Reversal describes your lag roll, lag displacement, Barrel Roll attack
-Lead Turn describes last phase as using a lead turn ie.... lead pursuit to obtain a guns firing solution......
I am sure all of you have Shaw's Fighter Combat: Tactics & Manuevering Book
you might want to go re-read it........it never says anything about "Lag Roll Reversal" , or "Long Range Scissors", or "Rudder Scissors"
in Aces high...we teach from the very Basic Flight Manuevers and how to combine them into workable solutions for the given task at hand.....
we try not to stray to far from this principle. nor do we add any New terminology to what is already existent......
People's terminology or New Terminology will cause heated debates and negative discussions.which does not help the people who really need the information......
just saying.......
edit: as for Flying in aces high... long time players with better skills, are always running across newer less skilled players.these less skilled players only know (2) primary skills - fly straight at your opponent and fire Nose to Nose ( Joust ) and extend/turn around..........rinse and repeat
so with this being very evident, some of the longtime players will use themselves as bait ( example: Agent360 ) and all the while in his mind ( our minds ) we are being Offensive.. we in fact are using a Defensive "set" to intice our oponent to engage........ so we can have a fight instead of a joust......
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First the initial question was "...what he should do to get the scissors started" from an OFFENSIVE point...I think PFactorDave is looking at scissors as an offensive move not as a way to get out of guns and run.
This correct. I have found that once I get an enemy into a scissors I have had good luck getting the tables turned and my own guns on target. Problem I have been having is simply getting the scissors going. I have had little luck thinking to myself, I'll getting him by scissoring and actually getting it going. But when I find myself scissoring it usually (not always) ends well for me.
And thanks for all of the input from everyone. Keep it up, I'm trying to digest it all.
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Air Combat Basics: The Scissors Maneuver
For the purpose of this article, the scissors is a defensive BFM maneuver. There is no such thing as an offensive scissors. When flown as a defensive maneuver, the scissors is a response to an attacker’s position…the scissors is a result of an attacker’s failure to control overtake and/or angle off.
Why the emphasis? Simply because some folks seem to think that a scissors is a maneuver that you can initiate against an opponent. It’s the old "what came first…the chicken or the egg?" In this case…in our discussion…the answer is clear. The bandit’s position and maneuvering potential comes first…the scissors is only a counter to that bandit’s BFM error.
Excellant!
I was hoping you would post a few in this thread.
The quote, I agree, is very accurate and to the point.
However. I have a few points I disagree with. We are probably getting into a subjective semantic argument at this point.
Many descriptions/definitions for ACM tactics are written or explained in what I call "sterile" terms. They are necessary for the basis of fact.
What I have written on this topic is not meant to be pure ACM instruction. I have attempted to write in terms of what happens in the unpredictalbe nature of dog fighting....the reality of it....the stick and rudder actions one must take to achieve a pre planned purposly executed series of aerial maneuvers with an end goal. Not just a simple snippet of correctly executing a "scissor" or "barrel roll" in response to a bandits maneuver.
I use the term "aerial" to collectivly describe the ACM manuevers in response to an attack.
I disagree that "There is no such thing as an offensive scissors". In terms of pure academic instruction this IS TRUE. But in terms of real flying (in game) it is not true.
"...the scissors is a result of an attacker’s failure to control overtake and/or angle off".
Often, and specifically in the way I have described initiating scissors it is not a failure, but a purposly executed series of moves to take advantage of this very fact. If one descibes an ACM environment where no pilot takes any chances and every move is flown with the most safest of opitons then acedimic instruction applies.
"Why the emphasis? Simply because some folks seem to think that a scissors is a maneuver that you can initiate against an opponent. It’s the old "what came first…the chicken or the egg?" In this case…in our discussion…the answer is clear. The bandit’s position and maneuvering potential comes first…the scissors is only a counter to that bandit’s BFM error."
This, I totally disagree with. Yes. this is good acedemic... the right thing to do instruction. But is filled with never do anything to slow down never get low, never turn, never.....do anything that puts you at a disadvantage.
If one flys this way then it is true if you find yourself in scissors then you have made a mistake.
On the other hand if one engages in more dangerous or should we say "challenging" situations or even more realistic, find himself forced to do something, then the "scissors"...how initiate them and how to OFFENSIVLY emply the concept is of great value.
As for 109's...almost anyone can attest to the glaring, obvious rolling scissor purposly initionated right in front of thier eyes that results in their death.
I want to be clear. I absolutly agree with the true acedemic theory of scissors. Traditionaly scissors is as described a "defensive" maneuver secondary to a mistake.
But this does not mean that scissors can not be USED...is stress USED...as an offensive maneuver.
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"...the scissors is a result of an attacker’s failure to control overtake and/or angle off".
Often, and specifically in the way I have described initiating scissors it is not a failure, but a purposly executed series of moves to take advantage of this very fact. If one descibes an ACM environment where no pilot takes any chances and every move is flown with the most safest of opitons then acedimic instruction applies.
You are interpreting the quote wrong. The bandit (initially offensive) made the mistake. You (initially defensive) exploit that mistake by initiating a scissors with the intention of reversing roles to become the attacker.
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If fighting from the view of being the Energy Fighter vs your opponent the Angles fighter ( speaking relative terms here edit: from Shaw's book Page#104/105/106)
The Energy Fight ( Energy Fighter ) can initiate a rolling scissors maneuver in an offensive manner.......
for the sake of the discussion..... the Rolling Scissors Maneuver can be called upon both Offensively & Defensively as sound tactics
the "Flat Scissors" is indeed a last ditch effort on defense
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you might want to go re-read it........it never says anything about "Lag Roll Reversal" , or "Long Range Scissors", or "Rudder Scissors"
we try not to stray to far from this principle. nor do we add any New terminology to what is already existent......
People's terminology or New Terminology will cause heated debates and negative discussions.which does not help the people who really need the information......
I apologize for not making it clear in my first post about the "terms" used to describe my maneuvers. I nickname all my moves. They don't exist in Shaw's book or any other "book" that I am aware of. The names are what "I" call them. Just like an aerial routine one can assemble all the known maneuvers into a series that represent a "show". I do the same...assemble individual moves into a collective "maneuver" which I then nickname.
What I write about ACM ...IS NOT TRAINING INSTRUCTION. That is for the trainers. I write about the very specific maneuvering that "I" use to when I play.
Perhaps I confuse people then? I hope that I describe things in such a way that they can be comprehended by someone who has had some training and understands the basic ACM principles.
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Murdr you are right.
I did read it wrong.
:aok
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I apologize for not making it clear in my first post about the "terms" used to describe my maneuvers. I nickname all my moves.
Perhaps I confuse people then? I hope that I describe things in such a way that they can be comprehended by someone who has had some training and understands the basic ACM principles.
no problem in nicknaming your favorite manuevers, Agent
and my Shaw's comment was not really directed at any particular individual........ I just know alot of people reference Robert Shaw's book, when trying to provide information for verifying.....
no worries
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Agent :salute :)
A agree with you.
I use the ali oop tuck thru to pitch the wunz over to snaffle the nose. Out he pops!
Boy, does it work :D
Ren
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Dawger...
"A lag roll or lag displacement roll is a barrel roll flown to get from lead pursuit to lag pursuit."
A lag displacement roll is flown to manage closure rate and to maintain or establish proper AOT, it is actually an excellent way to refuse a scissor engagement. A scissor is a defensive move and a lag roll is an offensive one. As TC stated there does come a point where the defender (scissor initiator) can convert to an offensive posture. This potential opportunity is entirely dependent on what the original aggressor does and if an overshoot (or potential overshoot) is created.
As agent said somewhere above its not getting slower per se its flying the farthest possible distance with the least forward movement, this invariably involves 3 dimensional geometry and maintaining very extreme AoA. This could be very accurately be described as a battle of lag rolls as both pilots attempt to establish AOT.
At its best the "scissors duel" is a tremendous test of spatial awareness, 3D tactics and plane handling skill. IMO at the level here the reality is more simple...
1) offer
2) engage flat
3) covert to rolling scissors
4) squeeze the con out front
1) scissors can only be offered not forced
2) once offered the initial move works best if its flat IMO, if the defender refuses and takes the high ground then the flat opener is more survivable for an average pilot then trying to force a rolling scissor. A lot of time the aggressor rolls back into the flat turn after smartly avoiding...actually with more E and a worse angle...
3) once you get the bite you need to convert asap to a more offensive rolling scissors. If the con is allowed to manage closure then the scissor will fail. A lot of players "scissor" with no purpose...like agent I view the scissors as an attack not a defense.
4) once your in a rolling scissor the real concept to work on is the amplitude of the components, learning to keep some speed by forcing the plane to the extremes of its flight envelope will allow you to fly farther "slower" while being faster then a pilot less comfortable with the edge of his planes envelope. Surprisingly to many newer playes you can win the scissor from a +E state vs a "lesser" pilot...
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I use the ali oop tuck thru to pitch the wunz over to snaffle the nose. Out he pops!
LOLOLOL
Dam Ren....he always gets what takes me 500 words in one sentence.
I love it
:aok
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....snip
At its best the "scissors duel" is a tremendous test of spatial awareness, 3D tactics and plane handling skill. IMO at the level here the reality is more simple...
1) offer
2) engage flat
3) covert to rolling scissors
4) squeeze the con out front
1) scissors can only be offered not forced
2) once offered the initial move works best if its flat IMO, if the defender refuses and takes the high ground then the flat opener is more survivable for an average pilot then trying to force a rolling scissor. A lot of time the aggressor rolls back into the flat turn after smartly avoiding...actually with more E and a worse angle...
3) once you get the bite you need to convert asap to a more offensive rolling scissors. If the con is allowed to manage closure then the scissor will fail. A lot of players "scissor" with no purpose...like agent I view the scissors as an attack not a defense.
4) once your in a rolling scissor the real concept to work on is the amplitude of the components, learning to keep some speed by forcing the plane to the extremes of its flight envelope will allow you to fly farther "slower" while being faster then a pilot less comfortable with the edge of his planes envelope. Surprisingly to many newer playes you can win the scissor from a +E state vs a "lesser" pilot...
Very good explanation
:aok
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agent,
Its such a complex topic IMO, when we think of the real killers (Drex, Greebo, Blukitty, Leviathon etc {sure I left tons out} we all view them as guys were afraid to be in front of....or behind. The "scissor reversal" is really the ultimate expression of ACM for me. Done right it locks both parties into a win or die encounter and is the ultimate "sleight of hand" ACM. Nothing is more demoralizing for the "good" pilot looking to get better then to run into the true sushi chefs of the game. You think your winning (me included) right up till .2 seconds before you hit the tower. Its such a fine line between winning and losing and repeatedly running into a guy like Greebo can cause vapor lock as you don't know if you should run, climb, chop, rope or dope....too timid kills you and to aggressive is just as bad.
Way back when those were the guys I tended to end up with as a trainer, good enough to fight but just realizing how tall the mountain was. Basically all I could do (now and then) is share the bit I know and climb along with them. It's pretty easy to get better then 70%, reasonable to get better then 85% but going beyond that gets into the thin air...
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I disagree that...
...the scissors is a result of an attacker’s failure to control overtake and/or angle off".
Often, and specifically in the way I have described initiating scissors it is not a failure, but a purposly executed series of moves to take advantage of this very fact. If one descibes an ACM environment where no pilot takes any chances and every move is flown with the most safest of opitons then acedimic instruction applies.
I took the liberty to merge two of your sentences Agent, for clarity I hope, and not to change your meaning...
You and I are obviously using many of the same general tactics when we fly/fight. And while I agree that the manuevers you describe are effective, reliable tactics, I don't agree that they're inherently "offensive". Particularly when you're setting up a situation against someone above/behind you, even if you've essentially put yourself in that position.
The way I see/understand it, we're beginning in a defensive position, setting up to minimize our chances of taking hits, and maximizing opportunities for the attacker to make mistakes. And because we're "planning", and "baiting", we obviously "know" what we're going to do/try, and "know" what his likely reaction/counter will be, and we "know" what mistakes he's likely to make, and when, and what they look like. That gives us the huge advantage of making the fight "predictable" and somewhat scripted. And successful the majority of the time...
Essentially, though, we're flying defensively. We're being attacked, and manuevering first and foremost to survive his pass. We're waiting for him to "take the bait", but if he doesn't we have no chance to "force" him into anything, and likely no opportunity for a shot, etc... We're not defensive mentally, because we're ready to pounce on the mistakes we're setting him up to make. But we're still defensive.
What happens when he doesn't make the mistake? He starts in an offensive position, moves in for the shot, detects the trap, and alters his plan/attack. We've started defensive, and are still defensive. The difference is that we no longer have that "predictability" element, and quite possibly, he now does... And he's still in the offensive position, which we still need to defend against before we can possibly launch our own attack...
I like the raccoon trapping analogy. And it works, but again, it isn't "aggressive". It relies on the target-animal aggressively "taking the bait". The trap itself is passive, it absolutely cannot catch anything by itself, it relies on the animal "catching" itself.
That's not to say that the trap hasn't been well thought out, predictable, and reliable. When I trapped furbearers I was very specific on what my target was, and where it was going to be, and what it was going to do, and the trap was set in such a way as to even direct the angle and speed of approach. I didn't target the animal, I targeted the animal's right front foot. And the "trap" could be custom tailored for different situations, and specific target animals. I could set a trap to catch a fox's right front foot, but miss the neighbors dog or a coyote, if they happened to show up first... And again, I knew how to tempt my target, knew the mistakes I wanted to capitolize on, etc...
And (again), if the target recognized the situation, my trap had no aggressive tendancies, and had no chance at success. It relied on the "attack", because it was unable to attack on its own... The trap may be effective, but it isn't an attack...
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what mtnman said.
If we were talking american football, a pass interception is a defensive play. If sucessful, a change from defense happens, but its still a defensive play. We artalking bfm though, and offense/defense indicates positioning. And you guys have gone to great lenghts indicating baiting/offering/leading into a scissors. Which is done from what position? Defensive.
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No question a scissors can only be offered not forced. It also is a very misunderstood defense since a number of specific variables need to be met. That being said the scissor is the aikido of defensive ACM and every reverse is really built on a rolling scissor action of some type. So the scissor is the manifestation of offensive intent from a defensive posture.
If we look at the nature of a fighter pilot we find that this intent to do harm is critical.
"never abandon the possibility of attack"
"better a mig on my 6 then no mig at all"
"there are only two types of planes, fighters and targets"
The amount of counter productive and useless "ACM" we all see in the arena's is a direct result of most players knowing they need to be "aggressive" but lacking a fundamental base of knowledge. To me the scissor is a defensive move with murderous intent (no pun intended). Basically your saying bring your knife into my phone booth and may the best man step out.
Now obviously we know that the other player has every option to simply say "I'll meet you in your phone booth" and then just nuke the phone booth instead. This leads into the games we play and why some pilots can create a reasonable (not always winning) fight from almost any position in any plane. There are no absolutes in air combat and a missed shot or a golden BB can dramatically alter a fight.
The scissor can be presented in numerous ways and at various attitudes in both flat and oblique postures. I often use a scissor defense in a -E merge from the onset of a fight. To me the scissor is a valuable opener from an inferior position equivalent to a kings indian defense in chess. The key is the recognition that you are defensive and that control of the fight rests in your opponents hands. The scissor simply says that for you to get close enough to shoot me you will be close enough for me to shoot you. It does place a higher level of ACM burden on the defender....but also on the attacker.
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I don't really have anything to add here except to say that these threads are why I read these boards. Thanks guys!
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sooooo anyone willing to help a noob (me) in improving scissors?? :)
<S> Clonk
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Happy to help anytime you see me on....
remember however that scissors is a combination of a bunch of BFM and has a number of variables. Truthfully the best thing to do is to find a trainer and evaluate your overall level of ACM knowledge etc. vs just looking at one aspect. A lot of mistakes that people view as scissors related are actually more basic.
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My theory is keep it simple. Less thinking, more flying and definitely lots of shooting. :)
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Thanks Humble...I'll look for ya on sometime and will definitely look up a trainer!
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Just want to reiterate something so that newer players understand...
A scissors is a dance that needs two partners. It is also not a very stable "dance" so to speak.
"Well hey Murdr I've had scissor fights that went on for nearly 10 minutes."
Yes, so have I, but let me present this progressive flow of the scissors.
I want to stress what I said earlier...we are not looking for a scissors per se. We are looking to induce a flight path overshoot.
"But Murdr, Humble says the scissors fight is the pinnacle of acm."
Yes, yes, but bare with me here. A scissors only developes if both opponents are doing the correct maneuvers in response to each other.
Here's how thing progress
1. A flight path overshoot happens.
2. The "defender" recognizes this and cuts his flight path toward the defender.
That could be the end of the story right there. The defender might be in position to swing his wingline back across the "attacker" and convert that flight path overshoot into a wingline or "3-9 line" overshoot. That conversion is really our true objective in the first place. If that is the case than it's not accurate to say they had a scissors fight.
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/pure2.jpg)
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/overshoot.jpg)
3. The "attacker" also recognizes the flight path overshoot and
a. Tries to extend out of gun range before the former "defender" can place a shot.
b. Cuts their flight path back toward the opponent to cut them off from gaining a trail position.
4. If 3b. happens, and the "attacker" denies his opponent a shot outright, or at least a critical shot, we have another flight path convergence (see #1)
If you made it all the way to #4 twice, we have a scissors fight.
So what I'm trying to make clear is that just barrel rolling back into the opponent after a flight path overshoot isn't a rolling scissors. If it results with you in trail, you managed to cause an overshoot. Just alternating left and right hand turns with a bandit on your six isn't a flat scissors. Unless you're getting the bandit far enough out of trail for converging flight paths, you're just "jinking". Hence it's a dance that needs two partners.
As far as inducing a flight path overshoot, which could lead to a scissors fight, we suggest the barrel roll defense.
You can see a movie demonstration by Badboy
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation6.avi (http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation6.avi)),
and there is also a package of film demostration by me
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/evarevall.zip).
Briefly, the barrel roll defense is a 3 step process.
1. A "leading turn". Generally this is going to be a break turn, but it does not have to be. In this step we are going to try to present the attacker with a high aspect target, so that the attacker will try to pull a lead for guns. If you can acquire the bandit nose on in your up view, that means there is a greater that 45 degree difference in your flight paths. We need this difference to create a severe enough flight path overshoot to work with.
2. Just as the bandit is about to employ guns, we want to start a barrel roll by rolling 90 degrees out of our turn. On a side note: BFMs are named by the BFM problem we are trying to solve. At this point we are solving guns defense, so we can consider this portion a high G roll (typically the "over the top" persuasion).
3. If everything went well with 1 and 2, while still performing our high G roll we need to watch our 6 for the flight path overshoot, and then orient our roll to our best guess of where the bandits flight path will end up. At this point, our BFM problem is an insanely high aspect, and as pointed out earlier, we can consider the rest of our barrel roll as a lag roll.
Obvious question, what's the counter? For step 1 use lag pursuit to minimize flight path differences. I mentioned other options earlier in the post.
This is a basic straightforward way to induce a flight path overshoot and then convert it to a wingline overshoot with "a bandit coming in on my six". As I also mentioned earlier sometimes flight path overshoots "just happen" and you can just start with step 2 or 3 at that point. There are also ways to "make" flight path overshoots happen during the course of a fight. But this is a good way to get familiar with both guns defense and recognizing flight path overshoots.
Finally, if you want to view an animiation breaking down the components of a rolling scissors, see this thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,184939). And by the way all of the links in this post have been accessable from the Trainers Site (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/) in the Trainer's files section.
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Very well laid out, I've tried to say similar things but its not easy (for me) to be so concise. The complexity of the inter dynamics makes this a tough subject to learn (or try and teach). To avoid as much confusion as possible (last thing I want to do is add to the frustration for someone) I'll try and match up my earlier comments to Murders last post....
A good stick will often simply deny the scissor and refuse the bait.
"Scissors" is a defensive posture attempting to induce an attack from a less then optimal position. IMO the player with the advantage should always refuse a true scissor. (Again this is a whole other topic since as murder states a lot of times your not scissoring your just flopping around by your self).
a sustained scissors is a sign you did it wrong or the other guy is very good. Normally a scissor is just that...one maybe 2 flat at the max to one or 2 rolling. If its not over then your in a true fight
The true "scissor fight" is pretty rare, a scissor is a defensive move and like all defensive moves it has an offensive counter. Neither side wants to get into the sustained scissor but two good pilots can find them selfs locked into one by circumstance. Murder is 100% right in that the defensive players intent is an overshoot not a "scissors fight".
This type of topic is why its so important for developing players (of any relative skill level) to build a relationship with one or more of the guys in the training corps. Advanced concepts require a strong foundation and most of us (myself included) have a less then absolute grasp of all the interdependencies. Remember Shaw wrote his book after years of being a fighter pilot because he couldn't get the answers in the system.
I don't do a lot of "training" but work with a few people a month on average. I find that most of the time we end up focused on a more basic issue then they initially asked for help with. It's very important to build from the foundation up....
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Truthfully the best thing to do is to find a trainer and evaluate your overall level of ACM knowledge etc.
I think that this is probably what I really need. Any Trainers reading this wish to volunteer?
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I think that this is probably what I really need. Any Trainers reading this wish to volunteer?
If you see me online, just give a holler... Or you can PM me and we'll see if our schedules work out.
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If you see me online, just give a holler... Or you can PM me and we'll see if our schedules work out.
PM sent
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Two things and a thought:
1). Get with a trainer. All of the trainers know both how to and can teach the how to do a scissors, Rolling and Flat.
2). I use a Rolling Scissors as a set up to a kill. As long as folks, BELIEVE, it is purely defensive then they are apt to jump right into an attack. That is EXACTLY what I want them to do.
The trainers are a bit more foturnate than most because they are competely used to have anywhere from 1-6 guys on their 6 at distances ranging from 200-800 yds out, in every plane type. If they chose to clear their 6 they immediately turn back into the bandit which is the beginning of the rolling scissors. If the bandit choses to disengage the the trainers reversal merely takes them into an extension for a reset to the fight. There is something to be said for Dicta Boelke. Something about "turn to meet him". If you don't then you've given your 6 to him, kinda like, on a platter.
Thought: If someone can chose to defeat an attack and turn the tables on some inbound bandit, what do you think they might be able to do if they were the bandit in the drivers seat? Hmmmmmm....
(Ren<--thinking out loud...it's prolly a good idea to be good in a rolling scissors)
Hope this helps
Ren
Aces High Training Corps
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My theory is keep it simple. Less thinking, more flying and definitely lots of shooting. :)
One set up, one rolling scissor, no more problem. Simple and effective. While this is rarely possible in practice, a simple 'one move' defence should be what you strive for at all times. It does not matter if you don't win the killshot, it is often a bonus to just losing your attacker instantly. If you are on the deck and thus trapped into intially flat turning you can still make the reverse turn into a barrel roll by adding some climb. This is far more effective than another flat turn back through the enemy's guns, but you must be vigilant on the throttle as you will make your enemy climb also, losing them speed.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/mossrevla7.ahf <--- this 1 min film shows a reversal on the deck adding a slight vertical element to reduce the chance of coming under accurate fire.
This FW190 was slowly gaining at 600 yards behind the mosquito in level flight at around 5,000ft. The mosquito dives for a few seconds to give the illusion of building speed then cuts the power before starting the barrel roll reversal, or you could call it a single rolling scissor. Of couse it takes two to rolling scissor, this is more the opposing turns of a rolling scissors overlayed on each other in one solid line of barel roll.
In other words it is the last turn in a rolling scissor fight that grants someone a victory, only it is initiated as the first move of the fight. It is not a move the defender can pull off without some risk. But you are being attacked. You are at risk whatever you do.
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/move1.PNG)
While it looks as if the 190 is directly on the mossie flight path, the rate of the turn within the roll was hard enough to deny a gun solution, nearly on maximum G for both pilot's vision.
Relative speed differences is the 190's undoing, not to mention trying to stay in pure persuit instead of lagging to avoid the overshoot. The wingline overshoot does not occur till just before the kink in the mossie flight path. The key was the 190 still thought it was the attacker untill a second before it was being fired on.
None the less, the more complicated a defensive you try, the more time the attacker has to work you out. While you will be forced to extend defensive moves against certain pilots or plane types, for the majority of MA encounters a simple 'bait-drag-evade-(fire)-reset' routine is the easiest and most valuable to get proficient with, imo.
S!
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Thanks for the info guys. Good post.
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Dawger...
"A lag roll or lag displacement roll is a barrel roll flown to get from lead pursuit to lag pursuit."
A lag displacement roll is flown to manage closure rate and to maintain or establish proper AOT, it is actually an excellent way to refuse a scissor engagement. A scissor is a defensive move and a lag roll is an offensive one. As TC stated there does come a point where the defender (scissor initiator) can convert to an offensive posture. This potential opportunity is entirely dependent on what the original aggressor does and if an overshoot (or potential overshoot) is created.
As agent said somewhere above its not getting slower per se its flying the farthest possible distance with the least forward movement, this invariably involves 3 dimensional geometry and maintaining very extreme AoA. This could be very accurately be described as a battle of lag rolls as both pilots attempt to establish AOT.
At its best the "scissors duel" is a tremendous test of spatial awareness, 3D tactics and plane handling skill. IMO at the level here the reality is more simple...
1) offer
2) engage flat
3) covert to rolling scissors
4) squeeze the con out front
1) scissors can only be offered not forced
2) once offered the initial move works best if its flat IMO, if the defender refuses and takes the high ground then the flat opener is more survivable for an average pilot then trying to force a rolling scissor. A lot of time the aggressor rolls back into the flat turn after smartly avoiding...actually with more E and a worse angle...
3) once you get the bite you need to convert asap to a more offensive rolling scissors. If the con is allowed to manage closure then the scissor will fail. A lot of players "scissor" with no purpose...like agent I view the scissors as an attack not a defense.
4) once your in a rolling scissor the real concept to work on is the amplitude of the components, learning to keep some speed by forcing the plane to the extremes of its flight envelope will allow you to fly farther "slower" while being faster then a pilot less comfortable with the edge of his planes envelope. Surprisingly to many newer playes you can win the scissor from a +E state vs a "lesser" pilot...
Again with this "lag roll is an offensive move". Everything is offense AND defense simultaneously. "I'm on defense so I can't lag roll" is a silly idea.
Guns defense comes in three parts. The initial break, the maneuver to defeat the shot, and the follow on BFM. When you perform a defensive break you are creating a decision tree based upon the actions of the bandit. The entire idea of the defensive break is to create the most Angle Off possible before the bandit reaches guns range. This doesn't mean a violent or abrupt break. In fact the most effective break smoothly builds the G to effectively disguise the high Angle Off and high G situation you want to develop. A good break turn will bring the bandit to the lift vector or slightly forward of it at the moment he reaches guns range. Stage one of guns defense is over and you have reached your decision point.
At this point in time you must evaluate the bandit and decide which follow on BFM is going to be most appropriate, execute a maneuver to spoil the shot and then transition into your chosen BFM and continue to evaluate.
If, when you get the bandit to the lift vector, you see he is pulling for lead and rapidly closing (you see him nose on or maybe even some belly side) then you are in an excellent position to initiate a nose high lag roll. Rolling the wings level and pulling the nose above the horizon will be enough out of plane maneuver to spoil his shot and if your evaluation was correct you will see his tracers behind your tail followed very shortly by the bandit crossing your 6. Continuing to roll towards the bandit begins the execution of your follow on BFM, The Lag Displacement Roll. All of this happens very rapidly.
Here is a Film demonstrating this.
Break turn to nose high Lag Roll Demo Film (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/breakturnexamplewithlagroll_0019.ahf)
If you slightly misjudged the enemy closure and/or angle off or he recognizes the nose high lag roll early you will very likely end up in a canopy to canopy rolling scissors.
Lag Roll into rolling scissors (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/fullfighttraplagrollrollingscissors.ahf)
If you misjudge badly the bandit will be right behind you and you will be very close to dead. I can't find a film of me doing that. :)
If, when you get the bandit to the lift vector, you see he is in lag pursuit and closure is small (you see the top of his aircraft) then the last thing you want to do is go nose high. If the bandit has killed all closure in a rapid deceleration you may be able to stay out of guns range by slightly relaxing G and continuing a nose low energy sustaining turn. More likely you will be forced into a maneuver to avoid the gun shot and a follow maneuver to force an overshoot. You don't want to do anything nose high for obvious reasons (If it isn't obvious then it will be once you try it a few times). If you have altitude and a desire to disengage a split S is an excellent choice to sling the bandit out. Doing this is simple. When the bandit reaches his guns firing point roll inverted and pull. This should spoil his guns shot and sling him outside your turn if you don't telegraph what you are doing and coax him into a guns shot.
If you don't have altitude for a split S or want to convert to the offensive nose low is still the way to go. A nose low lag roll after defeating his guns with a roll inverted is a good choice if you have some altitude to play with and get an overshoot from his guns shot. It can develop into a descending rolling scissors or quick offensive position depending on the skill of the bandit and your own execution.
If your break turn is poor or the bandit is fully committed to rapid deceleration and staying in the saddle AND you are on the deck, then you are getting into flat scissors territory. The break turn results in the bandit in lag pursuit firmly in your rear quarter and you have no altitude for a split S or nose low lag roll. Your only remaining choice is to try to force an overshoot using a flat scissors. A reversal to the nose low side is always better but most folks find this very difficult to perform. When the bandit reaches guns range and you have got him as close to the lift vector as he is gonna get (those two HAVE to happen simultaneously in every defensive break turn) then you must reverse the turn to initiate the flat scissors. Unload the airplane (Zero G...not negative G) and max roll rate technique, preferably to the nose low side while closing the throttle and kicking out any drag devices you might have (Flaps, speed brakes). Once you near a roll of 180 degrees watch the bandit. The instant you perceive he is rolling to match your reversal, unload the airplane and max roll rate technique to reverse again. By this time you should HAVE to bring the throttle up to keep flying. You should be on the ragged edge of a stall fighting to keep the airplane from stalling. If you initiate the third reversal and haven't kicked the bandit ahead of your 3-9 line chances are you never will. Once you get him out in front of the 3-9 line you will probably have to keep the scissors going to keep him there for about two more reversals. Don't be tempted to relax your technique for a snapshot. The instant you relax the scissors technique for a snapshot the bandit will scoot back into your rear hemisphere. (feel free to pull the trigger while performing your best scissors, just make sure you are still max performing the airplane while shooting)
That is about the limit of the decision tree created by a defensive break turn.
Break Turn, evaluate the bandit at the crucial moment, and then choose a follow on maneuver (Lag roll nose high or low, Split S, or a flat scissors) The events that follow that three step process may result in a rolling scissors or defensive spiral. A descending rolling scissors will degrade into a flat scissors eventually. All rolling scissors in prop airplanes will degrade into descending rolling scissors.
Again, I think much of the issue is a confusion of terms. Mainly because we don't take a building block approach to learning ACM.
There are two maneuvers. Rolls and pulls. That is it. EVERYTHING else is a combination of those two maneuvers. (Well, I will allow the unloading to zero G is technically a PUSH)
A loop is a 360 degree pull. A split S is a 180 degree roll followed by a 180 degree pull.
maneuvers done without reference to another aircraft are primary maneuvers.
When you perform a maneuver with reference to a target aircraft it becomes a Basic Fighter Maneuver. A split S performed in order to attack a low bandit is a BFM. Same maneuver as a split S just done for fun.
A barrel roll is simultaneous rolling and pulling maneuver. When you perform a barrel roll in order to continuously place the lift vector on (or slightly behind) the target (until angle off the tail decreases sufficiently) you are performing a lag displacement roll. Two aircraft engaged in simultaneous lag rolls against each other are in a rolling scissors.
A high yo yo is a simple nose high pull and a roll then another pull. What makes it an effective BFM is knowing that you pull the nose high to kill the closure then roll the lift vector to a point in front of the bandit and then pull again. If the bandit reverses in the middle of the yo yo it immediately creates a lag roll as shown in the following film
Yo Yo to Lag Roll Demo Film (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/yoyo to lag roll.ahf)
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You cant "lag roll" on defense because the term is a pursuit term. Basically your confusing a barrel roll with a lag roll. Without doubt a successful scissors defense that forces an overshoot does put the defender in a pursuit mode and accordingly might very well finish as a "lag roll". If the overshoot is clear cut on the break turn then at the moment of overshoot a lag pursuit position is achieved and the defender now reverses back into the attackers fight path. A roll of some type may be involved but normally isn't needed. As a general rule however the initial break/scissors leaves the defender in a defensive position with the bogey forced out to a high AOT. The real issue at hand is the aggressors management of this AOT and his closure rate.
At this point you are on defense and you have no offensive capabilities beyond those you coerce from your opponent. In fact the ideal "defense" to the scissor focuses on exactly the same point you illustrate as ideal for your "lag roll"...recognizing that you are describing a "read and react" your left with the same scenario that your executing an out of plane barrel roll defense against a bogey with a high AOT and excessive closure rate. This is not a lag roll....
The scissor actually starts prior the initial break turn and the timing and "intensity" of the turn (as well as direction) is specific to the intent to scissor. Hence the scissor is "offered". The bogeys reaction at 1.5 - 1.2 normally clearly indicates his intent (not always). To coerce the desired flight path the normal initial turn (which you call the break turn) is a slightly nose low "flat" turn to minimize broadcasting your intent. This turn can be steepened considerably vs a foe intent on a guns pass leading directly to a barrel roll defense ala Greebo, Batfink, blukitty. This compression of the entire sequence to a single combined maneuver is an art form however.
Normally however the "ideal" is that the initial turn is the flat component of the scissor and the break executed into the bogey as he is forced toward the 3,9 line with a strong out of plane component "trapping" the con 45-90 degree's out of plane to your movement. Given a high AOT and excessive closure this will almost inevitably force an almost immediate overshoot. If the bogey counters the break then you reset and go to plan B but this is normally an indication of poor preparation prior to the scissor.
The greater issue is when the bogey sits on the scissor and initiates a proper "defense" thus controlling his closure rate while maintaining proper AOT. At this point defense is significantly more problematic and we get into "pilot stuff". The reality is that the basic undisguised "scissor/barrel roll offense" is very easy to counter.
Anyone who has ever worked with me knows that I take a very simple approach to training ACM and normally can get the light bulb to go on in about 10 minutes or so specific to any basic topic or issue. At that point a period of exploration (20 min to an hour) will normally leave the "student" with a much better overall understanding of cause and effect and a grasp of the initial "how and why" his normal behavior created undesired or expected results. At that point normally 2 or 3 points of focus are discussed that will allow for a bit of reprogramming to work on breaking those tendencies and allowing for the development of a stronger more effective feedback loop.
Btw "BFM" is basic flight maneuver and ACM is air combat maneuver
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You are the confused one.
A barrel roll is a primary maneuver.
When you perform a barrel roll against a target aircraft it becomes a relative maneuver. The purpose of the barrel is what makes it a lag displacement roll.
Any time you are in lead pursuit (one of the three pursuit curves, lead, lag and pure) and you need to get to lag pursuit a barrel roll into the target aircraft will accomplish that goal.
That is a lag displacement roll. Every lag displacement roll is a barrel roll. Not every barrel roll is a lag displacement roll.
You can use a lag displacement roll on offense or defense. You can use it any time you are in lead pursuit and need to get to lag pursuit.
How can I be in lead pursuit on defense?
It is quite easy.
Lead pursuit is flying a path to a point in space that the target aircraft is traveling towards. If you think about that concept for a few minutes you should begin to realize that anytime you get into the bandit's front quarter you are in lead pursuit. I like to call it excessive lead pursuit since the excess is likely to get you shot.
A lag displacement roll is a handy device on offense to reduce closure but it requires creation of a large amount of lead pursuit. It usually happens naturally.
When attacking a bandit the proper approach requires all three pursuit curves. lead pursuit to bring you to the bandit turn circle followed by pure pursuit as you approach his turn circle and lag pursuit to maintain a position on his turn circle.
This film shows the transition from lead pursuit to pure then lag as I approach his turn circle. View with trails on for best effect.
Lead to lag transition (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film%20library/leadpurelagtransition.ahf)
Once establish on the target turn circle in lag pursuit I have a variety of Follow On Basic Fighter Maneuvers at my disposal to maintain the control point.
The high yo yo is one such follow on BFM. If the target turn circle is smaller than mine because of speed differential or turn performance and I am in Lag Pursuit a high yo yo is the appropriate maneuver.
In the following film you see i allow the bandit to create the lead pure lag pursuit transition as he breaks across my nose then, from a position of lag pursuit I execute a high yo yo by pulling nose high and rolling the lift vector to a point in front of the target (Lift vector placement in lead pursuit) then execute a pull to bring my velocity vector back to lag on the bandit on his turn circle. This maneuver uses a turn out of plane to make my turn circle into an egg shape, using gravity and geometry to keep my larger turn circle aligned with his.
High yo yo (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film%20library/leadtolagtoyoyo.ahf)
In my earlier post I showed a film where a high yo yo quickly becomes a lag displacement roll if the target reverses. The yo yo starts from lag pursuit. The reversal by the bandit creates a large amount of lead pursuit.
Yo yo to lag roll (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film%20library/yoyo%20to%20lag%20roll.ahf)
The identical situation exists when you force an overshoot across your tail. The instant the bandit is crossing your tail in an overshoot you are in lead pursuit and a lag displacement roll towards the target will take you from lead pursuit to lag pursuit as I show in this film
Lag roll reversal (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film%20library/breakturnexamplewithlagroll_0019.ahf)
That moment occurs at 19 seconds into the film. All of the conditions for a lag displacement roll are in place at that point. It really isn't any different than the lag rolls used to maintain offensive position.
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I'm not confused at all....
1) there is no such thing as a "primary" maneuver. The fact the Shaw labels a section of his book "basic fighter maneuvers" appears to be confusing you. The term "BFM" is well known to anyone who has a PPL or has gone thru any military or civilian flight training system.
http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/AirplaneFlyingHandbook/Basic_flight_maneuvers (http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/AirplaneFlyingHandbook/Basic_flight_maneuvers)
Shaws "BFM" is actually basic "ACM" which is the execution of simple or complex flight maneuvers based on interaction a hostile opponent.
www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder5/T45/P-1289.PDF (http://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder5/T45/P-1289.PDF)
The simple reality is that you can't put the cart before the horse and use of the terms "lead, lag or pure" while in a defensive posture are incorrect. As mentioned above a rolling scissor fight can be viewed as a "lag roll" fight however a combination of events has to ocure prior to this. The text on ACM linked above sums it up nicely...
Offensively, if you find yourself in a “roller,” you have made a mistake, which means you must strive to
remain offensive or disengage at the earliest opportunity. A rolling scissors is not a desirable maneuver
for an attacker because it limits opportunities for weapons employment
I'll try and illustrate the problem with your concept. If I dive in as an attacker on a con my plane will be in lag pursuit as I dive and transition to more or less pure pursuit as I stabilize. Lets stipulate the con wants to initiate a break turn at a range of 1.4. As my range closes and I am watching for a defensive move I see his rotation in preparation for the break. At this moment I am now in lag pursuit in relation to his lift vector (but not path of movement). In anticipation of hi break I pull a bit to establish a vertical offset. At this point I am in lead pursuit to his path of movement and out of plane lag pursuit to his lift vector. The defender seeing me pop up rolls back level and pushes his nose down. Now I am still in his rear hemisphere and technically in lead pursuit with a positive rate of closure. The bogey has moved his lift vector further ahead by going nose down in preparation of a vertical reversal but he is not in "lead pursuit". I expect the con to show on his break and he doesn't. Having lost the view I can continue my climb....or I can roll 180 degrees. As I begin my roll the con pulls up intending to zoom into my projected climb as my forward motion creates an overshoot. As I roll inverted I suddenly see the con in my "front up" view and instinctively pull the trigger popping him in the canopy from 200 ft. (I've actually got this on film a bunch of different times). The simple reality is that AOT trumps all else and that no amount of "lead" or "lag" matters if the other guy is behind you and capable of in plane positioning. A defensive plane is defensive till its not....as others have said the aggressor still controls the fight until the overshoot is actually achieved....
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I am going to oversimplify it for you PF. Only because your question sounded so much like mine.
TO start a rolling scissors JUST go into a barrel roll. Once both parties barrel roll it becomes a rolling scissors.
The other posts are technically right when the say the rolling scissors is not a offensive maneuver. The barrel roll is the offensive maneuver.
Just start using a barrel roll. I went to the TA and just started practising and fillming myself once you make five films go look at the film with trails on. and you will see how they are forming and what you did.
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The only problem there is timing. You cant force a rolling scissor. Now a barrel roll defense vs a high speed con is very appropriate, Bat is an expert at that...
The post above was trying to sort out the AOT element from the manipulation of lift vector by describing a pretty common "porpoise" interaction. The reason almost all rolling scissors convert from flat is the need to manipulate the AOT. Normally a barrel roll defense does not translate to a rolling scissor in my experience. Either you get a blow thru pass or you get a lag roll/hi yoyo defense to the overshoot.
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Much respect humble.... my post was just to his initial question. And just in the frame of how to start a rolling scissors from my perspective.
I learned a lot from reading the many post in this thread they have help me with fine tuning and better understanding.
I could always do a rolling scissors once someone else started it i never knew it was just a barrel roll in its simplest form. Once Widewing walked me through it in the TA I was like uh duh.
Thanks WW