Initiating scissors

[humble]

The concept of establishing or maintaining an offset is important in any angle oriented ACM...going back to my 1st post looking to appear to present an easy shot solution is an attempt to manufacture an offset by getting the bogey to lead on the initial "break turn".

[Dawger]

1. you have to learn to fly looking backwards. While looking back watch for a lag behind your tail. This means it looks like he is falling down if your going up. At the moment he goes to lag pursuit REVERSE. As he crosses your tail IMMEDIATLY reverse....you are now in scissors.

2. you have to create a speed difference. You either go slower or faster. Either one. Going slower is better....do this by reducing throttle and pulling hard G's...this works best if you drag to a right flat turn...watch for the lag off your tail then go up and over....you are now in scissors

3. Use the snap roll to "snap" your plane over 180 deg....if he follows....after the third turn...you are  now in scissors.

4. You can reverse CANOPY UP (typical) or CANOPY DOWN. Canopy down means you roll over like a split S but continue to roll so you now turn the opposite way..exactly the same as you would doing it canopy up. THis method will keep your energy. Canopy up robs your energy.

5. The closer you can draw them into guns range the better chance you have of making a reversal that they can not extend away from.

6. The LONG RANGE SCISSOR - Plane comes in from high dive. You KNOW you can not out run him. You can turn into and under effectivly exiting the fight. OR...you can turn 90 deg into him...allow closure off your wing tip ( keep him on your wing tip)...let him close to almost gun range ( d800) then immediatly reverse the other way ONLY 90 deg. Let him climb UP and OVER. Keep your wing on him. When he comes down you pull up....you are now in a close rolling scissor.

7. The RUDDER SCISSOR - Throttle to idle. full right rudder and skid hard to right. slight roll to right....hard left rudder and skid to left NOSE UP....hard right rudder nose up and skid right. In this case you are "inviting" a scissor fight. If he exits by going up or fly past make a 90 turn off his tail and extend. Wait for him to complete the vert turn and come in...when his nose is down turn into HIM FOR A MOMENT OF CLOSURE and THEN EARLY TURN UP PURPOSLY CORSSING HIS GUNS. Roll over and you are now in scissors.

Lots of incorrect information in this post.

First, in a flat scissors the reversals should be timed with the aim of keeping the bandit lift vector 180 degrees out of phase. It really has nothing to do with where the bandit is and everything to do with his reaction to your maneuver.

Second, in a flat scissors maximum deceleration is what creates the overshoot. The reversals are a (rather desperate) attempt to spoil a guns solution while creating an overshoot.

The flat scissors is the last ditch defense when you are on the deck and the bandit is in the saddle and staying there. It is used in a very specific circumstance. Your best break turn has not created high angle off the tail and high closure and you have no altitude to use. Only then is a flat scissors appropriate.

you have to create a speed difference. You either go slower or faster. Either one. Going slower is better....do this by reducing throttle and pulling hard G's...this works best if you drag to a right flat turn...watch for the lag off your tail then go up and over....you are now in scissors

This sounds suspiciously like a lag roll reversal, not a scissors. It may quickly develop into a rolling scissors but it didn't start that way.

The Long Range Scissor and Rudder Scissor are not scissors at all.

There is one nugget of very good advice in Agent's post. When doing a flat scissors making the reversal turns by rolling in the same direction as the break is the most effective technique. If you initiate a flat scissors by executing a left break then the reversal turn should be a continuation of that left turn which will point the lift vector at the ground on its way around. But in a situation where a flat scissors is really appropriate this requires good roll rate and even better technique to stay out of terra firma. If you are doing scissors from an altitude where rolling inverted is comfortable then you are too high and probably should be choosing a different defensive strategy.

[humble]

1) an overshoot is not strictly dependent on deceleration, even in a flat scissor. The real key as stated is in the bogeys reactions to the defender and defenders adjustments.

2) The scissor should never be viewed as a "last ditch" tactic. It is in fact often the opener in a defensive E fight and can be used with great effect at 15k at 350mph or on the deck at 200mph. It is simply a guns defense vs a higher speed aggressor who has established a stable position in your rear hemisphere. As such it needs to be viewed in the context of a "bigger plan". Giving just 1 example a scissor can be used to slow a fight down in preparation for a climbing spiral defense.

3) there is no such thing as a "flat scissor" IMO. As I mentioned above many pilots "pop up" slightly initially (bad IMO most of the time){unless done early ala the greebo/blukitty reversal} when an initial nose down attitude maximizes the effectiveness of the move. Since the scissor is flown in reaction the the aggressor the vertical component is actually driven by his flight path...however generically its safe to say that a flat initial move almost always leads to a "rolling scissor" at some point.

4) There is no such thing a "lag roll" executed from the defensive position since lag, lead and true are pursuit terms. Agent is trying to answer the actual question posed. How, when and why to execute a scissor. His description is very much an accurate (IMO) attempt at trying to articulate a way to start a rolling scissor.

This an old clip but it might help to illustrate how a scissor can be used anywhere within the context of a fight.

http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/funwithkitchen%20utensils.ahf

[Agent360]

Lots of incorrect information in this post.

With all due respect, Dawger, you have no idea what you are talking about.

First, in a flat scissors the reversals should be timed with the aim of keeping the bandit lift vector 180 degrees out of phase. It really has nothing to do with where the bandit is and everything to do with his reaction to your maneuver.

There is no “180 deg out of phase” in a scissor of any kind. The amount of deg of turn is at most 45 deg or your not in scissors.  180 deg of turn constitutes a turn for merge. Continuous merging is NOT scissors. The way or maneuver that you choose to INITIATE the scissor has everything to do with where he is and NOTHING to do with what he does. What he does AFTER you initiate the scissor is what matters. He either chooses to stay in or exit. If he stays in then the scissor starts.

Second, in a flat scissors maximum deceleration is what creates the overshoot. The reversals are a (rather desperate) attempt to spoil a guns solution while creating an overshoot.

If you do not properly scissor the con can simply cut throttle and ride along behind you. However, if you have kept your speed and are properly scissoring and he cuts to stay behind you can exit out and out run him or go over the top for a nice kill shot.

“Maximum decelerations” is NOT what creates the overshoot. The whole idea of scissors is to maintain your current air speed while flying a shorter forward flight path. You attempt to keep all your airspeed but fly a path that reduces your forward movement on a strait line. If you draw a curving line like a snake and then draw the same line but with sharper turns on the curves the line with the sharper curves wins.

I great example of this is the famous “slow bike race”. I do this with the kids on my block all the time. We all start on the line. The object is to be the one who finishes last without falling over or touching the ground with your feet. The only way to be last is to make sharper turns while MAINTAINING enough momentum to keep riding. If you make easy turns and I make sharper ones you will in effect go faster than me and eventually be in front.

Now this last part is just funny….”desperate” attempt to spoil guns….LOL. Well then I guess we should just fly strait and give up.

The flat scissors is the last ditch defense when you are on the deck and the bandit is in the saddle and staying there. It is used in a very specific circumstance. Your best break turn has not created high angle off the tail and high closure and you have no altitude to use. Only then is a flat scissors appropriate.

Here is where we get to the “totally incorrect” part.
Scissors are NOT a defensive or as you put it “last ditch defense” move. ANYTIME, I repeat…ANYTIME you see an opponent purposely initiate scissors you are dealing with either one of two things. Someone who has no clue or someone who is going to kill you.

Given two equal pilots the fight will ALWAYS end up in scissors. Given two un equal pilots the best one will initiate scissors and kill the other one….and you can put that in your sig line too.

A pilot who just “yanks and banks” is not in scissors. One must learn to recognize the difference between scissors and panic.

This sounds suspiciously like a lag roll reversal, not a scissors. It may quickly develop into a rolling scissors but it didn't start that way.

A “lag roll reversal” is not started in front of someone. That is a move against a hard breaking con you are BEHIND. It is also knows as a “roll away” and is also a counter to a properly initiated scissor…more on that later if anyone wants to ask.

The Long Range Scissor and Rudder Scissor are not scissors at all.

EHHHHHHHHH…..WRONG.

First “long range scissor” and “rudder scissor” are “my” terms I use to describe specific WAYS to start an offensive scissor. If you read it more than once and think about it you will see how these moves FORCE an opponent who STAYS IN into scissors. One can always EXIT out 90 deg, yo yo and come back in…but that is another story.

If you…or anyone for that matter doubt the effectiveness of my scissor moves I will be glad to be proved wrong in the DA.

There is one nugget of very good advice in Agent's post. When doing a flat scissors making the reversal turns by rolling in the same direction as the break is the most effective technique. If you initiate a flat scissors by executing a left break then the reversal turn should be a continuation of that left turn which will point the lift vector at the ground on its way around. But in a situation where a flat scissors is really appropriate this requires good roll rate and even better technique to stay out of terra firma. If you are doing scissors from an altitude where rolling inverted is comfortable then you are too high and probably should be choosing a different defensive strategy.

“When doing a flat scissors making the reversal turns by rolling in the same direction as the break is the most effective technique.” This is NOT a scissor move. This is called a barrel roll. And it is not what I said to do. You must REVERSE the turn the opposite way not continue with the turn into a barrel roll. Although this may be effective on creating an overshoot against a con with a huge speed advantage it has no use against an opponent you are scissoring with.

Now to the “flat scissors” thing. ALL fights end up in some kind of scissor. Without a scissor we have a simple break turn and kill shot or a simple exit out for alt. ANY TIME you engage for more than two turns your in fact in scissors.

There are many types of scissors….flat, rolling, vertical, spiral….and the scissor reversals such as the tork roll,  stalling turn, tail slide, slice back…on and on. They ALL involve some type or scissor move.

Agent360

[PFactorDave]

A “lag roll reversal” is not started in front of someone. That is a move against a hard breaking con you are BEHIND. It is also knows as a “roll away” and is also a counter to a properly initiated scissor…more on that later if anyone wants to ask.

I'd like to ask.  Can you please discuss this in more detail for me?  I am trying to get a handle on how to use scissors and any and all information is prescious to me.  Plus, I am of the firm belief that threads that have these types of discussions are really the only worthwhile threads on the forums and would like to keep the discussion on topic and moving forward for the benefit of myself and any others who, like me, are trying to learn something here.

Thanks   

[humble]

1st there is no such thing as a "lag roll reversal" since a lag roll can only be preformed by the aggressor. If you can recall the opening scene trailer for BaBa Blacksheep the trailing Corsair preforms a lag roll vs the zeke in front. The purpose of the lag roll is to create a flight path seperation that prevents an overshoot by rolling in the opposite direction of the bogey's turn. In effect your trying to give the target some additional room so you dont overshoot. It's designed to minimize the AoT (gain angles) while reducing E to control closure. Basically its a counter to the scissor or break turn. Think of it as a high yoyo away from the con...but instead of establishing a plane and then pulling thru in a true climbing turn you continue the rolling move inverted....then at some point as you continue to roll you pull thru back to the bogeys new flight path. The "lag" refers to the execution of the roll (and therefor placement of lift vector AWAY from the bogeys flight path). As you roll thru you actually place your lift vector ahead of the con (but out of plane to him) and can pull thru in lead, true or lag pursuit as needed.

[Clonk]

Agent, would you be willing to work with me on scissors in DA sometime soon?  I can be on after about 5pm EST anytime...would greatly appreciate the assistance!


<S> Clonk

[Agent360]

Please check this link out. It has graphics and explanations...very short and to the point.

http://combataircraft.com/tactics/index.aspx

[shiv]

1st there is no such thing as a "lag roll reversal" since a lag roll can only be preformed by the aggressor. If you can recall the opening scene trailer for BaBa Blacksheep the trailing Corsair preforms a lag roll vs the zeke in front. The purpose of the lag roll is to create a flight path seperation that prevents an overshoot by rolling in the opposite direction of the bogey's turn. In effect your trying to give the target some additional room so you dont overshoot. It's designed to minimize the AoT (gain angles) while reducing E to control closure. Basically its a counter to the scissor or break turn. Think of it as a high yoyo away from the con...but instead of establishing a plane and then pulling thru in a true climbing turn you continue the rolling move inverted....then at some point as you continue to roll you pull thru back to the bogeys new flight path. The "lag" refers to the execution of the roll (and therefor placement of lift vector AWAY from the bogeys flight path). As you roll thru you actually place your lift vector ahead of the con (but out of plane to him) and can pull thru in lead, true or lag pursuit as needed.

Can I ask how fast is the roll performed?  A nice easy roll, or are you whipping through it?

[Dawger]

A lag roll is begun from a a starting position of lead pursuit, even extreme lead pursuit. A bandit behind the 3-9 line would be considered "extreme lead". It is quite possible, in fact desirable to lag roll a bandit behind you.

I have a film where I do a slow motion lag roll reversal on a bandit that is behind my 3-9 line right here in fact.

Slow Motion Lag Roll on rear quarter bandit

Of course, one can always continue to be heartily confused by Agent's misapplication of terminology. It doesn't mean he isn't a good stick, it just means he has no clue what he is doing is called.

[humble]

A lag roll is begun from a a starting position of lead pursuit, even extreme lead pursuit. A bandit behind the 3-9 line would be considered "extreme lead". It is quite possible, in fact desirable to lag roll a bandit behind you.

I have a film where I do a slow motion lag roll reversal on a bandit that is behind my 3-9 line right here in fact.

Slow Motion Lag Roll on rear quarter bandit

Of course, one can always continue to be heartily confused by Agent's misapplication of terminology. It doesn't mean he isn't a good stick, it just means he has no clue what he is doing is called.

I don't want to get into an argument here, but a few comments are in order. Your clip is not really a lag roll IMO and its certainly not executed from a defensive position. Dedalos is below and "behind" you but totally defensive. No question you use the vertical and a roll (I'd call in more of a barrel roll then a lag roll) to establish a position above and behind (so its accomplishing the same thing as a lag roll in the sense your creating closure and angular gain) Ded has good SA and plays the hand he's delt forcing an overshoot in the vertical (if I play it out in my mind) and setting up a -E rolling scissors if you forced the action.

To be candid agent knows a bit more about ACM then you appear to (again just one persons opinion). A barrel roll guns defense is not a "lag roll" and a +E manuever executed from a position above and in front is not IMO a "lag roll" either. If pressed I'd call that a vector roll attack...

[humble]

Can I ask how fast is the roll performed?  A nice easy roll, or are you whipping through it?

This varies based on circumstance. The move was primarily used by 190 drivers on the axis side and jug drivers on the allied side since they had a very marginal ability to turn with the spitfire or 109. By using roll rate and the vertical they could "rotate" vs turn. The roll away at an oblique vertical angle would actually bring the planes lift vector around in fornt of the turning bogey and the pilot would use is rudder authority to pull thru. So the "rotate and pull" actually was significantly faster then the actual enemy turn rate and converted speed to stored E and then released it on the dive back out.

[Murdr]

I've been finding, as of late, that using a scissors type movement to turn the tables on an opponent is a good way to get out of a potentially bad situation.  My problem is that I'm not exactly sure how to get the scissors started.

Can any of you more experienced sticks talk about the various different types of scissors (rolling, flat, vertical, etc) and what a pilot wishing to initiate a scissors should be watching for (as far as what his opponent is doing) and what he should do to get the scissors started...

Thanks in advance.

Dave, I suggest you take a look at Air Combat Basics: The Scissors Maneuver by retired USAF instructor Andy Bush, and Badboy.  There's a comment from that I'd like to hilight to hopefully clear things up a bit...

The opportunity for a scissors begins with the attacker overshooting a defender’s flight path.

The short answer is you want to set up (or simply recognize one when it happens...and they do often "just happen") a flight path overshoot.  The scissors begin when there is a flight path overshoot with the desired qualities, and you recognize and react to it.  What are those qualities?  Conveniently for me, Andy once addressed that in a post...

The situation begins with the attacker overshooting the defender's six at fairly close range. The defender wants to reverse to go on the offensive, but he is unsure if this is a good idea. Why would it not be?

Because, by reversing, the defender may be solving the attacker's overshoot...it may be smarter for the defender to continue his hard defensive turn. It all depends on how the attacker overshoots.

The attacker's overshoot will have three main characteristics that the defender must assess. One is the angle off that the attacker has when crossing the defender's flight path...high or low. The second is the speed or rate that the attacker crosses that flight path...fast or slow. And the last is the magnitude of the attacker's forward velocity relative to the defender...in other words, his closure.

To visualize this, imagine using one of the aft looking views. You see the bandit sliding across your six as you turn hard into his gun attack.

Your first concern is his angle off. Use his fuselage alignment as a measure of this. If you are looking pretty much at his nose, down the fuselage, then the angle off is low, the bandit is pointed mostly at you. But if you are looking at more of a planform picture and the bandit is pointed well to the outside of the turn, then the angle off is high.

You want to see high angle off.

Next, consider his rate of movement across your six. He is either moving fast across your six, or not.

You want to see fast movement.

Finally, you consider his closure. This is particularly true of low angle off situations. Is it high or low?

You want high closure.

Higher angle off...fast overshoot speed...and high closure. All of these will tend to move the bandit to the outside of the turn and forward towards the defender's 3/9 line. This then creates the turning room needed for the defender to reverse.

Lastly, there are two kinds of reversals into the scissors...fast and slow.

A fast reversal is used when the bandit overshoots with high closure. The bandit's speed is going to carry him to the outside of the defender's turn as well as moving him forward. The defender can unload, roll approximately 180 degrees to orient his lift vector on or behind the bandit, and then pull into the bandit.

A slow reversal is used when the bandit overshoots with relatively high angle off but with low closure...or with a lower angle off but high closure. In this situation, the defender wants to remain loaded up while he rolls. This helps in forcing the bandit forward on the defender's 3/9 line. This roll is usually done by holding the G of the defensive turn while using lots of aileron and rudder to roll. Note that beaucoup energy is lost doing this, so the defender is really commiting himself to a last ditch fight.

Once the roll is complete, the defender pulls to the bandit's "high six". He looks for the chance to lead his next reversal with a lead turn...it's this lead turn that often wins the scissors.

Hope that isn't too confusing...if so, please point out the sticky parts and I'll try again!

Andy

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Andy Bush ]

Hope that helps.

[Agent360]

1. you have to learn to fly looking backwards. While looking back watch for a lag behind your tail. This means it looks like he is falling down if your going up. At the moment he goes to lag pursuit REVERSE. As he crosses your tail IMMEDIATLY reverse....you are now in scissors.

2. you have to create a speed difference. You either go slower or faster. Either one. Going slower is better....do this by reducing throttle and pulling hard G's...this works best if you drag to a right flat turn...watch for the lag off your tail then go up and over....you are now in scissors

3. Use the snap roll to "snap" your plane over 180 deg....if he follows....after the third turn...you are  now in scissors.

4. You can reverse CANOPY UP (typical) or CANOPY DOWN. Canopy down means you roll over like a split S but continue to roll so you now turn the opposite way..exactly the same as you would doing it canopy up. THis method will keep your energy. Canopy up robs your energy.

5. The closer you can draw them into guns range the better chance you have of making a reversal that they can not extend away from.

6. The LONG RANGE SCISSOR - Plane comes in from high dive. You KNOW you can not out run him. You can turn into and under effectivly exiting the fight. OR...you can turn 90 deg into him...allow closure off your wing tip ( keep him on your wing tip)...let him close to almost gun range ( d800) then immediatly reverse the other way ONLY 90 deg. Let him climb UP and OVER. Keep your wing on him. When he comes down you pull up....you are now in a close rolling scissor.

7. The RUDDER SCISSOR - Throttle to idle. full right rudder and skid hard to right. slight roll to right....hard left rudder and skid to left NOSE UP....hard right rudder nose up and skid right. In this case you are "inviting" a scissor fight. If he exits by going up or fly past make a 90 turn off his tail and extend. Wait for him to complete the vert turn and come in...when his nose is down turn into HIM FOR A MOMENT OF CLOSURE and THEN EARLY TURN UP PURPOSLY CORSSING HIS GUNS. Roll over and you are now in scissors.

I would like to clarify a few things from my original post quoted above.

First the initial question was "...what he should do to get the scissors started" from an OFFENSIVE point...I think PFactorDave is looking at scissors as an offensive move not as a way to get out of guns and run.

So my post was written to show a few ways of doing this.

The way I fly is to bait another plane into engaging. The trick is to offer enough bait to get them to commit. Sort of like trapping a raccoon. But once you have that Raccoon in the cage you have to make sure your trap is made in such a way that he can not get out or escape.

This is the very essence of how I use scissoring....bait the trap....set it up....then spring the trap and CATCH my game.

Getting a plane who has perfect alt and speed over you to engage into a close turn fight or to at least commit enough to be caught is not an easy thing to do. Typically people just hard break turn and let the bandit overshoot and climb away. All this does is subject you to continuous high speed gun passes.

The long range scissor:
A term coined by Agent360 to describe how to set a scissor trap on a bandit who has superior alt and speed. The method in the beggining is NOT scissors. It is a method designed to draw the bandit into scissors in such a way that he can not escape without having guns on him. The method relies on pulling ANGLES in such a way as to LEAD (NOT as in lead turn...but as in getting him to follow) the bandit around in a series of 90 deg ARCS (not circles) that begin to converge. At this point you are in effect scissoring but the bandit doesnt know it yet. You are actually flying a very loose kind of rolling scissor with the intent of creating closure and reducing seperation. Further, I am not trying to gain his six yet, only to closing the seperation.

I say "lead" because I am presenting favorable angles to the bandit....and flying so that the bandit becomes greedy and sees potential gun solutions.

The basis of the simple leading around is to reduce the bandits seperation down to nothing. This is not done by slowing down. If one slows down doing this then the bandit can keep his seperation and easily go up for more gun passes.

Once I have the bandit commited and reduced the closure it is now time to begin the scissor. One can not start a scissor without the bandit willing to commit to close guns. To do that you have to get there first and that is what the long range scissor all about. Once you have eliminated the seperation and created closure for the bandit behind your 3-9 line you can begin to scissor. The more angle of tail ( the farther the bandit is off to your side) the bandit is when you start your first scissor turn the better. It is imperative you don't allow the bandit to saddle up on your direct six. If that happens then I use the "rudder scissor".

The whole reason for doing this is to force a bandit intent on high speed gun passes into a situation where he can not simply climb away or dive away.

The rudder scissor:
To keep this in context we will contiue with everything that has happened in the long range scissor.

For a moment let us assume you have either made a mistake by misjudging alt and speed or you are dealing with an expert pilot who fails to fall for any of the tricks and is now pulling or diving directly onto your six with SLOW closure. In moments he will be in gun range at d400.

IF you attempt a simple break turn or a climb you will get cut off and shot. If you barrel roll he can simply follow.

Now is the time to invite him into a rolling scissor.

I describe how to use the rudder to start this. Because the bandit is very close on your six and in guns you can not simply break turn into scissors as the bandit will simply ride his throttle and get continuous guns on you every time you scissor turn.

The process starts by using the rudder to "skid turn". Skidding makes the plane appear to fly a gentle turn when it is actually flying strait. Think of when you land too fast...you use hard rudder to slow down..your plane is nosed to one side but you continue to fly STRAIT down the runway. When you are slow enough you ease off the rudder and your nose is strait and you land.

I begin the hard rudder and point the nose slightly UP. This now presents to the bandit a difficult gun solution and starts the closure by rapidly reducing airspeed. At this point the bandit is thinking..."aint no freaken way im letting you get away" and chops his throttle to say behind you. He will probably rudder hard and try to keep guns which is exactly what you want.

The nose up part is to keep your nose up. If you allow your nose to drop you will gain airspeed and the bandit will just stay behind you.

Now we begin the rudder turns as described. We are now simply rocking the plane left and right. We are creating very shallow angles and are beggining to get a true scissor started. It is the same thing as if you are break turning at high speed. But at this point we have to make the turns angles very small....about 5 deg or so. With each rudder reverse I get the nose up more and roll more.

At this point I must point out that this maneuver is done very rapidly....left right left right. It is not slow like in a typical fast moving scissor.

With each rudder turn I am pulling more and more angles on each reversing turn. At first the bandit sees a jinkiing plane and cant quite get his bullets to hit because my plane is actually flying strait and he thinks its in a turn so he leads off to the side and up....and he misses.

Withing seconds the bandit is out of sync because he is ROLLING to get guns. I am not rolling but rudder turning.

At the moment the bandit make the mistake of Rolling over or up is when you release your rudder and pull hard into him dropping your flaps.

If you have done it correctly you will now be in a slow rolling scissor...at this point it is up to you to judge the angles and pick an oppurtunity to drop in behind or make a crossing shot.

I hope this clears up any "slang" terms I may have introduced.

Agent360

[Murdr]

Air Combat Basics: The Scissors Maneuver

For the purpose of this article, the scissors is a defensive BFM maneuver. There is no such thing as an offensive scissors. When flown as a defensive maneuver, the scissors is a response to an attacker’s position…the scissors is a result of an attacker’s failure to control overtake and/or angle off.

Why the emphasis? Simply because some folks seem to think that a scissors is a maneuver that you can initiate against an opponent. It’s the old "what came first…the chicken or the egg?" In this case…in our discussion…the answer is clear. The bandit’s position and maneuvering potential comes first…the scissors is only a counter to that bandit’s BFM error.