Initiating scissors

[Dawger]

1st there is no such thing as a "lag roll reversal" since a lag roll can only be preformed by the aggressor. If you can recall the opening scene trailer for BaBa Blacksheep the trailing Corsair preforms a lag roll vs the zeke in front. The purpose of the lag roll is to create a flight path seperation that prevents an overshoot by rolling in the opposite direction of the bogey's turn. In effect your trying to give the target some additional room so you dont overshoot. It's designed to minimize the AoT (gain angles) while reducing E to control closure. Basically its a counter to the scissor or break turn. Think of it as a high yoyo away from the con...but instead of establishing a plane and then pulling thru in a true climbing turn you continue the rolling move inverted....then at some point as you continue to roll you pull thru back to the bogeys new flight path. The "lag" refers to the execution of the roll (and therefor placement of lift vector AWAY from the bogeys flight path). As you roll thru you actually place your lift vector ahead of the con (but out of plane to him) and can pull thru in lead, true or lag pursuit as needed.

A lag roll or lag displacement roll is a barrel roll flown to get from lead pursuit to lag pursuit. A lag roll reversal is taught by every trainer in Aces High I imagine and you see them all the time in the arena. The problem is a lack of standardization of language used in the training environment. We are all generally talking about the same very small set of maneuvers but folks apply names for stuff sort of willy-nilly.

There really are very few Basic Fighter Maneuvers and every one of those is composed of various combinations of two very simple maneuvers.

A lag roll reversal is a nose high barrel roll flown when you have forced the attacker into a high angle off the tail, high closure overshoot. From that position you are in extreme lead pursuit at the moment the bandit crosses your tail in the overshoot. The barrel roll from lead pursuit to lag pursuit will put you squarely in the bandit's rear hemisphere unless he aggressively counters it.

I post an example of a lag roll reversal a little later. I guarantee it will be recognized. It has been called lots of things but it is just a simple lag roll used when you have created the excess lead pursuit required for its proper execution.

lag displacement rolls can be used on offense or defense although technically to create the conditions necessary to successfully employ a lag roll on defense you have to create the overshoot that makes it possible.

Again I think this is a semantics issue. Folks like to create lots of different names for the same set of maneuvers.

[TequilaChaser]

Scissors is advanced BFM ( Basic Fighter Manuevering ) made up of 3 phases ( or 3 turningmanuevers )

• Nose to Nose Turn
• Reversal
• Lead Turn

-Nose to Nose Turn describes your breaking turn into your attacker
-Reversal describes your lag roll, lag displacement, Barrel Roll attack
-Lead Turn describes last phase as using a lead turn ie.... lead pursuit to obtain a guns firing solution......

I am sure all of you have Shaw's Fighter Combat: Tactics & Manuevering  Book

you might want to go re-read it........it never says anything about "Lag Roll Reversal" , or "Long Range Scissors", or "Rudder Scissors"

in Aces high...we teach from the very Basic Flight Manuevers and how to combine them into workable solutions for the given task at hand.....

we try not to stray to far from this principle.  nor do we add any New terminology to what is already existent......

People's terminology or New Terminology will cause heated debates and negative discussions.which does not help the people who really need the information......

just saying.......


edit: as for Flying in aces high... long time players with better skills, are always running across newer less skilled players.these less skilled players only know (2) primary skills - fly straight at your opponent and fire Nose to Nose ( Joust ) and extend/turn around..........rinse and repeat

so with this being very evident, some of the longtime players will use themselves as bait ( example: Agent360 ) and all the while in his mind ( our minds ) we are being Offensive.. we in fact are using a Defensive "set" to intice our oponent to engage........ so we can have a fight  instead of a joust......

[PFactorDave]

First the initial question was "...what he should do to get the scissors started" from an OFFENSIVE point...I think PFactorDave is looking at scissors as an offensive move not as a way to get out of guns and run.

This correct.  I have found that once I get an enemy into a scissors I have had good luck getting the tables turned and my own guns on target.  Problem I have been having is simply getting the scissors going.  I have had little luck thinking to myself, I'll getting him by scissoring and actually getting it going.  But when I find myself scissoring it usually (not always) ends well for me.

And thanks for all of the input from everyone.  Keep it up, I'm trying to digest it all.

[Agent360]

Air Combat Basics: The Scissors Maneuver

For the purpose of this article, the scissors is a defensive BFM maneuver. There is no such thing as an offensive scissors. When flown as a defensive maneuver, the scissors is a response to an attacker’s position…the scissors is a result of an attacker’s failure to control overtake and/or angle off.

Why the emphasis? Simply because some folks seem to think that a scissors is a maneuver that you can initiate against an opponent. It’s the old "what came first…the chicken or the egg?" In this case…in our discussion…the answer is clear. The bandit’s position and maneuvering potential comes first…the scissors is only a counter to that bandit’s BFM error.

Excellant!

I was hoping you would post a few in this thread.

The quote, I agree, is very accurate and to the point.

However. I have a few points I disagree with. We are probably getting into a subjective semantic argument at this point.

Many descriptions/definitions for ACM tactics are written or explained in what I call "sterile" terms. They are necessary for the basis of fact.

What I have written on this topic is not meant to be pure ACM instruction. I have attempted to write in terms of what happens in the unpredictalbe nature of dog fighting....the reality of it....the stick and rudder actions one must take to achieve a pre planned purposly executed series of aerial maneuvers with an end goal. Not just a simple snippet of correctly executing a "scissor" or "barrel roll" in response to a bandits maneuver.

I use the term "aerial" to collectivly describe the ACM manuevers in response to an attack.

I disagree that "There is no such thing as an offensive scissors". In terms of pure academic instruction this IS TRUE. But in terms of real flying (in game) it is not true.

"...the scissors is a result of an attacker’s failure to control overtake and/or angle off".
Often, and specifically in the way I have described initiating scissors it is not a failure, but a purposly executed series of moves to take advantage of this very fact. If one descibes an ACM environment where no pilot takes any chances and every move is flown with the most safest of opitons then acedimic instruction applies.

"Why the emphasis? Simply because some folks seem to think that a scissors is a maneuver that you can initiate against an opponent. It’s the old "what came first…the chicken or the egg?" In this case…in our discussion…the answer is clear. The bandit’s position and maneuvering potential comes first…the scissors is only a counter to that bandit’s BFM error."

This, I totally disagree with. Yes. this is  good acedemic... the right thing to do instruction. But is filled with never do anything to slow down never get low, never turn, never.....do anything that puts you at a disadvantage.

If one flys this way then it is true if you find yourself in scissors then you have made a mistake.

On the other hand if one engages in more dangerous or should we say "challenging" situations or even more realistic, find himself forced to do something, then the "scissors"...how initiate them and how to OFFENSIVLY emply the concept is of great value.

As for 109's...almost anyone can attest to the glaring, obvious rolling scissor purposly initionated right in front of thier eyes that results in their death.

I want to be clear. I absolutly agree with the true acedemic theory of scissors. Traditionaly scissors is as described a "defensive" maneuver secondary to a mistake.

But this does not mean that scissors can not be USED...is stress USED...as an offensive maneuver.

[Murdr]

"...the scissors is a result of an attacker’s failure to control overtake and/or angle off".
Often, and specifically in the way I have described initiating scissors it is not a failure, but a purposly executed series of moves to take advantage of this very fact. If one descibes an ACM environment where no pilot takes any chances and every move is flown with the most safest of opitons then acedimic instruction applies.

You are interpreting the quote wrong.  The bandit (initially offensive) made the mistake.  You (initially defensive) exploit that mistake by initiating a scissors with the intention of reversing roles to become the attacker.

[TequilaChaser]

If fighting from the view of being the Energy Fighter  vs your opponent the Angles fighter ( speaking relative terms here edit: from Shaw's book Page#104/105/106)

The Energy Fight ( Energy Fighter ) can initiate a rolling scissors maneuver in an offensive manner.......

for the sake of the discussion..... the Rolling Scissors Maneuver can be called upon both Offensively & Defensively as sound tactics

the "Flat Scissors" is indeed a last ditch effort on defense

[Agent360]

you might want to go re-read it........it never says anything about "Lag Roll Reversal" , or "Long Range Scissors", or "Rudder Scissors"

we try not to stray to far from this principle.  nor do we add any New terminology to what is already existent......

People's terminology or New Terminology will cause heated debates and negative discussions.which does not help the people who really need the information......

I apologize for not making it clear in my first post about the "terms" used to describe my maneuvers. I nickname all my moves. They don't exist in  Shaw's book or any other "book" that I am aware of. The names are what "I" call them. Just like an aerial routine one can assemble all the known maneuvers into a series that represent a "show". I do the same...assemble individual moves into a collective "maneuver" which I then nickname.

What I write about ACM ...IS NOT TRAINING INSTRUCTION. That is for the trainers. I write about the very specific maneuvering that "I" use to when I play.

Perhaps I confuse people then? I hope that I describe things in such a way that they can be comprehended by someone who has had some training and understands the basic ACM principles.

[Agent360]

Murdr you are right.

I did read it wrong.

 

[TequilaChaser]

I apologize for not making it clear in my first post about the "terms" used to describe my maneuvers. I nickname all my moves.

Perhaps I confuse people then? I hope that I describe things in such a way that they can be comprehended by someone who has had some training and understands the basic ACM principles.

no problem in nicknaming your favorite manuevers, Agent

and my Shaw's comment was not really directed at any particular individual........ I just know alot of people reference Robert Shaw's book, when trying to provide information for verifying.....

no worries

[DamnedRen]

Agent   

A agree with you.

I use the ali oop tuck thru to pitch the wunz over to snaffle the nose. Out he pops!

Boy, does it work

Ren

[humble]

Dawger...


"A lag roll or lag displacement roll is a barrel roll flown to get from lead pursuit to lag pursuit."

A lag displacement roll is flown to manage closure rate and to maintain or establish proper AOT, it is actually an excellent way to refuse a scissor engagement. A scissor is a defensive move and a lag roll is an offensive one. As TC stated there does come a point where the defender (scissor initiator) can convert to an offensive posture. This potential opportunity is entirely dependent on what the original aggressor does and if an overshoot (or potential overshoot) is created.

As agent said somewhere above its not getting slower per se its flying the farthest possible distance with the least forward movement, this invariably involves 3 dimensional geometry and maintaining very extreme AoA. This could be very accurately be described as a battle of lag rolls as both pilots attempt to establish AOT.

At its best the "scissors duel" is a tremendous test of spatial awareness, 3D tactics and plane handling skill. IMO at the level here the reality is more simple...

1) offer
2) engage flat
3) covert to rolling scissors
4) squeeze the con out front

1) scissors can only be offered not forced

2) once offered the initial move works best if its flat IMO, if the defender refuses and takes the high ground then the flat opener is more survivable for an average pilot then trying to force a rolling scissor. A lot of time the aggressor rolls back into the flat turn after smartly avoiding...actually with more E and a worse angle...

3) once you get the bite you need to convert asap to a more offensive rolling scissors. If the con is allowed to manage closure then the scissor will fail. A lot of players "scissor" with no purpose...like agent I view the scissors as an attack not a defense.

4) once your in a rolling scissor the real concept to work on is the amplitude of the components, learning to keep some speed by forcing the plane to the extremes of its flight envelope will allow you to fly farther "slower" while being faster then a pilot less comfortable with the edge of his planes envelope. Surprisingly to many newer playes you can win the scissor from a +E state vs a "lesser" pilot...

[Agent360]

I use the ali oop tuck thru to pitch the wunz over to snaffle the nose. Out he pops!

LOLOLOL

Dam Ren....he always gets what takes me 500 words in one sentence.

I love it

 

[Agent360]

....snip

At its best the "scissors duel" is a tremendous test of spatial awareness, 3D tactics and plane handling skill. IMO at the level here the reality is more simple...

1) offer
2) engage flat
3) covert to rolling scissors
4) squeeze the con out front

1) scissors can only be offered not forced

2) once offered the initial move works best if its flat IMO, if the defender refuses and takes the high ground then the flat opener is more survivable for an average pilot then trying to force a rolling scissor. A lot of time the aggressor rolls back into the flat turn after smartly avoiding...actually with more E and a worse angle...

3) once you get the bite you need to convert asap to a more offensive rolling scissors. If the con is allowed to manage closure then the scissor will fail. A lot of players "scissor" with no purpose...like agent I view the scissors as an attack not a defense.

4) once your in a rolling scissor the real concept to work on is the amplitude of the components, learning to keep some speed by forcing the plane to the extremes of its flight envelope will allow you to fly farther "slower" while being faster then a pilot less comfortable with the edge of his planes envelope. Surprisingly to many newer playes you can win the scissor from a +E state vs a "lesser" pilot...

Very good explanation
 

[humble]

agent,

Its such a complex topic IMO, when we think of the real killers (Drex, Greebo, Blukitty, Leviathon etc {sure I left tons out} we all view them as guys were afraid to be in front of....or behind. The "scissor reversal" is really the ultimate expression of ACM for me. Done right it locks both parties into a win or die encounter and is the ultimate "sleight of hand" ACM. Nothing is more demoralizing for the "good" pilot looking to get better then to run into the true sushi chefs of the game. You think your winning (me included) right up till .2 seconds before you hit the tower. Its such a fine line between winning and losing and repeatedly running into a guy like Greebo can cause vapor lock as you don't know if you should run, climb, chop, rope or dope....too timid kills you and to aggressive is just as bad.

Way back when those were the guys I tended to end up with as a trainer, good enough to fight but just realizing how tall the mountain was. Basically all I could do (now and then) is share the bit I know and climb along with them. It's pretty easy to get better then 70%, reasonable to get better then 85% but going beyond that gets into the thin air...

[mtnman]

I disagree that...

...the scissors is a result of an attacker’s failure to control overtake and/or angle off".
Often, and specifically in the way I have described initiating scissors it is not a failure, but a purposly executed series of moves to take advantage of this very fact. If one descibes an ACM environment where no pilot takes any chances and every move is flown with the most safest of opitons then acedimic instruction applies.

I took the liberty to merge two of your sentences Agent, for clarity I hope, and not to change your meaning...

You and I are obviously using many of the same general tactics when we fly/fight.  And while I agree that the manuevers you describe are effective, reliable tactics, I don't agree that they're inherently "offensive".  Particularly when you're setting up a situation against someone above/behind you, even if you've essentially put yourself in that position.

The way I see/understand it, we're beginning in a defensive position, setting up to minimize our chances of taking hits, and maximizing opportunities for the attacker to make mistakes.  And because we're "planning", and "baiting", we obviously "know" what we're going to do/try, and "know" what his likely reaction/counter will be, and we "know" what mistakes he's likely to make, and when, and what they look like.  That gives us the huge advantage of making the fight "predictable" and somewhat scripted.  And successful the majority of the time...

Essentially, though, we're flying defensively.  We're being attacked, and manuevering first and foremost to survive his pass.  We're waiting for him to "take the bait", but if he doesn't we have no chance to "force" him into anything, and likely no opportunity for a shot, etc...  We're not defensive mentally, because we're ready to pounce on the mistakes we're setting him up to make.  But we're still defensive. 

What happens when he doesn't make the mistake?  He starts in an offensive position, moves in for the shot, detects the trap, and alters his plan/attack.  We've started defensive, and are still defensive.  The difference is that we no longer have that "predictability" element, and quite possibly, he now does...  And he's still in the offensive position, which we still need to defend against before we can possibly launch our own attack...

I like the raccoon trapping analogy.  And it works, but again, it isn't "aggressive".  It relies on the target-animal aggressively "taking the bait".  The trap itself is passive, it absolutely cannot catch anything by itself, it relies on the animal "catching" itself. 

That's not to say that the trap hasn't been well thought out, predictable, and reliable.  When I trapped furbearers I was very specific on what my target was, and where it was going to be, and what it was going to do, and the trap was set in such a way as to even direct the angle and speed of approach.  I didn't target the animal, I targeted the animal's right front foot.  And the "trap" could be custom tailored for different situations, and specific target animals.  I could set a trap to catch a fox's right front foot, but miss the neighbors dog or a coyote, if they happened to show up first...  And again, I knew how to tempt my target, knew the mistakes I wanted to capitolize on, etc... 

And (again), if the target recognized the situation, my trap had no aggressive tendancies, and had no chance at success.  It relied on the "attack", because it was unable to attack on its own...  The trap may be effective, but it isn't an attack...