Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Widewing on May 06, 2009, 05:55:12 PM
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Factory stock Jeep Wrangler JK Rubicons can go almost anywhere you might want to try...
(http://allworldcars.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/jeep-wrangler-unlimited-rubicon-2006-01-m.jpg)
(http://www.elkhartvehicles.com/images/jeep_wrangler2_elkhart_indiana.jpg)
(http://saloncars.com/catalog/images/08JeepWrangler.jpg)
With FIAT having a controlling interest in Chrysler (meaning Jeep), will things change?
In anticipation of the future, I figured, why not be the first to drive a badged Jeep Wrangler Ronzonicon?
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/Ronzonicon.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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The fiat version will be about 1/3rd of the size with little 10" wheels. It might not be able to traverse a horshoe crab.
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Oh my gosh, I will never buy, own, touch, look at, or ride in another jeep again.
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Fiat is not all about little bitty cars, they own Ferrari too...
Word
Mark
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ya, they'll become unreliable, and ugly. don't ever get rid of yours. :aok
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Widewing........
Wrong...
almost as wrong as a 4-door jeep
:cry
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ya, they'll become unreliable, and ugly. don't ever get rid of yours. :aok
In other words nothing will change. :lol
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In other words nothing will change. :lol
:lol
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Chrysler- Fiat?
How about calling them "Cry-at"??
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Actually, didn't controlling interest in Chrysler go to the UAW, with Fiat being a minor investor?
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My mom had a fiat in the '80s, and, yes, it broke down constantly. Fix It Again Tony might have been the first acronym I ever learned.
On the other hand, my brother in law is a transportation designer, and his first job out of school was with Fiat. He's given me reason to believe that it's a very different company today than the one that gave us headaches two decades ago.
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Actually, didn't controlling interest in Chrysler go to the UAW, with Fiat being a minor investor?
Correct. 55% of Chrysler is controlled by the UAW.
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Correct. 55% of Chrysler is controlled by the UAW.
hhmm......that seems somewhat frightening, considering the times.....
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hhmm......that seems somewhat frightening, considering the times.....
I disagree. For the UAW it's simple, put up or shut up. They've already made many concessions leading up to this. They know if they screw this up, it's curtains.
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Actually, didn't controlling interest in Chrysler go to the UAW, with Fiat being a minor investor?
With the Union running things I don't see much hope for the company. It was the Unions that put the car companies into the condition they are in now.
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With the Union running things I don't see much hope for the company. It was the Unions that put the car companies into the condition they are in now.
The CEO's did.
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UAW is already looking to dump all its stocks, they want to turn them over into cash for health care and benefits funds. They won't be a major share holder for long IMHO
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The CEO's did.
Yes thats true. They kept giving into the demands of the Unions and we now see what happens when you do.
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Yes thats true. They kept giving into the demands of the Unions and we now see what happens when you do.
I grew up in a Union family. My father made a measly $20/hour when he retired from Ford after 33 years of never missing a day of work. My mother taught for Detroit Public Schools for 28 years. UAW workers doing what my pop did make less than $14 and NO Benefits at all.
The only time Unions come up is when the Skilled Trades and their $60/hour jobs are deliberately put in the same league as the "Line Workers".
I only see the results of noodlesty Engineering and noodlesty mismanagement while raping Corporate Funds. To put the sole blame of the demise of Chrysler and GM on the hands of the UAW is chickennoodles at best. There are many threads where I have pointed out these things and they don't even come close to "blame of the UAW."
My father would throw valve body parts at his foreman's sons head when he fell asleep and stopped production. My father will still tell someone he wishes "he could be reimbursed for Union Dues because he never needed the Union to help him, because he showed up for work every day and did his job."
When people trash the UAW for the screw ups, my father laughs because at the end of the day he hates them just as much as we do. But then there are those who are ignorant and just hate, to hate.
I could bring up the Junk Bond status of GM, Ford and Chrysler and it has NOTHING to do with the UAW. But it does involve gross negligence on the "Smart White Collar" greed mongers, that wish to blame the UAW, while they skim the coffers to this day.
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When Mercedes Benz held Chrysler, they dumped it off for one reason. They could not see how the company would remain viable given the UAW retirement benefits.
That is not to say upper management was not to blame.
I would say both upper management and the UAW painted themselves into a corner where failure of the business was inevitable.
GM is doing it right. Upper management takes the money and runs, then hands the mess over to the tax payers to run. That is how you properly bilk a company of its money and get away with it.
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When Mercedes Benz held Chrysler, they dumped it off for one reason. They could not see how the company would remain viable given the UAW retirement benefits.
That is not to say upper management was not to blame.
I would say both upper management and the UAW painted themselves into a corner where failure of the business was inevitable.
GM is doing it right. Upper management takes the money and runs, then hands the mess over to the tax payers to run. That is how you properly bilk a company of its money and get away with it.
THIS I can believe, I just refuse to allow the UAW to take all of it. It's irrational otherwise. Both sides are equal in blame, or none at all.
But Chrysler has always been the "weaker of the 3". I'm actually surprised they lasted this long. Ford has been recovering since 2005. They are way ahead of the curve right now and may not even need the Bailout money.
GM is screwed though. But they've had too many brands, for too long.
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Being third generation automotive suppier i have seen it all, I agree it is both the union and management that is at fault. Retirement and healthcare costs play a big part in it corporate greed of course plays another. Wait for another 20 years or so and see what kind of problems Toyota, Nissan, and the other "foreign" car manufacturers in the US have once they have a similar number of retirees drawing pensions and healthcare. If you think about it, it's like a classic pyramid scam and we all know how those work out.
As far as the Chrysler Fiat merger, the best analogy I have heard is that it's like two men in the ocean without life jackets, getting together may help for a while but the end is inevitable.
And a thought for anyone who believes that the recession is anywhere close to coming to an end, you ain't seen nothing yet. Just because we stuck a gross amount of money into businesses that provide "services" and the stock market has been climbing back up. Who will be able to pay for these "services" when there are no manufacturing jobs left in the US? Bottom line is, Manufacturing jobs have to be created or brought back or there are very dark days ahead.
P.S.
I totally agree with Skuzzy on GM with to many brands, the sad reality is that when the dust settles hundreds of small suppliers will be put out of business and thousands of workers will loose their jobs.
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Fiat is not all about little bitty cars, they own Ferrari too...
And which one is government going to require Chrysler to build? The little dinky cars that nobody wants.
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no sir, it was the management agreeing to the union demands and passing on the costs to everyone who bought a vehicle from them. i make a good living repairing broken Jeeps, if my income depended on repairing Landcrusiers i be eating grass and looking forward to hotdog weekends once a month.
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no sir, it was the management agreeing to the union demands and passing on the costs to everyone who bought a vehicle from them. i make a good living repairing broken Jeeps, if my income depended on repairing Landcrusiers i be eating grass and looking forward to hotdog weekends once a month.
Jeep Liberty's maybe, but most of the wrinkles were long ironed out from TJ's, XJ, and Z/WJ's (with the ZJ's being known in 93 & 94 for having electrical issues, much like the Land Rover Disco's with the Lucas wiring). I know the new JK's use the Caravan engine, which unfortunately sucks in the low end torque range of wheeling (from the 258) and probaby bring a slew of problems of it's own. I know noone with a Commander, but those seem to be somewhat reliable.
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Except for a woefully misguided 6 month stint in a Saturn, I had been a loyal Chrysler/Jeep owner since 1988.
Until November of last year.
The last 2 Grand Cherokees ( '97 and '01 ) had become $1k oil change machines once they hit 110k miles. When I went to replace my '01, I found they had redesigned the Grand and removed 1.5" of headroom from the driver... which made it too small for me to sit in. I'm still scratching my head over that one. After 14 years, they forced me to move on.
I looked at all the vehicles they had to offer.. and I couldn't find one that called to me. The commander is a pathetic joke.. reduced rear visibility when the third seat is up? C'mon.. Looks like a bloated Cherokee. Bah.
The Nitro has got to be one of the most butt-ugly conconctions they've ever come up with.. and, whereas I wouldn't mind the Calibre, the interior is simply bland. And it seams that just about all of them share the same boxy looking, cheap, door panels. The cars just wreaked of 'we don't care!'. Granted.. the Challenger and Magnum are cool.. but not enough to get me to buy them.
I loved my '91 Sundance. That was a fun little car.. decent mileage, good styling and performance.. and with the liftback had plenty of accessible cargo space. Our '93 Acclaim had more interior room for a sedan than just about anything on the road.
I really tried to give Jeep/Chrysler the benefit of the doubt and find something I could live with.
I couldn't.
So, now I own a Honda Pilot. At least it was assembled in America.
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(http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/euro-ford-focus-rs-0808.jpg)
Why is it the above car is not available in the U.S.? A 300HP rocket, and one that looks pretty good, yet Ford will not bring it to the U.S. It is available only in Europe. Lucky bastiages.
Ford is so close to getting a clue it hurts. They seem to have Europe figured out.
Leaps and bounds ahead of both GM and Chrysler.
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Correct. 55% of Chrysler is controlled by the UAW.
UAW shares are non-voting shares..... FIAT will have a controlling majority with about 30%.
My regards,
Widewing
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Jeep Liberty's maybe, but most of the wrinkles were long ironed out from TJ's, XJ, and Z/WJ's (with the ZJ's being known in 93 & 94 for having electrical issues, much like the Land Rover Disco's with the Lucas wiring). I know the new JK's use the Caravan engine, which unfortunately sucks in the low end torque range of wheeling (from the 258) and probaby bring a slew of problems of it's own. I know noone with a Commander, but those seem to be somewhat reliable.
That 3.8 V6 makes considerably more torque than the 4.0 inline six did, it just makes it 1,000 rpm higher. I actually prefer the 3.8 over the 4.0 in my '92 YJ Wrangler. My YJ was lifted 1.5" and it still didn't have the ground clearance of my JK, nor the ability to crawl over ridiculous stuff like the JK can.
My regards,
Widewing
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That 3.8 V6 makes considerably more torque than the 4.0 inline six did, it just makes it 1,000 rpm higher. I actually prefer the 3.8 over the 4.0 in my '92 YJ Wrangler. My YJ was lifted 1.5" and it still didn't have the ground clearance of my JK, nor the ability to crawl over ridiculous stuff like the JK can.
My regards,
Widewing
In mud, that 1,000 rpm makes ALL of the difference.
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What's it called Skuzzy? That looks like a 20 year old's dream machine.
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It's the upcoming Ford Focus RS Mk II. Here in Germany it will cost 33900€
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That looks like a Ford Focus RS.
Follows in line from the other fast UK fords such as the: -
Escort Cosworth
(http://www.autoholic.de/images/resized/9zsgf20.JPG)
Mondeo ST
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Ford_Mondeo_ST220_Blue.jpg/800px-Ford_Mondeo_ST220_Blue.jpg)
Fiesta RS
(http://www.maxi-tuning.ru/post/11855/ford-fiesta-rs.jpg)
Sierra Cosworth
(http://www.forddesktops.com/gen/ford_sierra_rs_cosworth_45_640.jpg)
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In mud, that 1,000 rpm makes ALL of the difference.
JKs have BLD (Brake Lock Differentials), and there is an algorithm in the computer that distributes torque to the four wheels (drive by wire throttle). The computer determines how much torque is required and distributes power. In some ways, this system is better in mud than locked differentials. Besides, mud is about horsepower, RPM and momentum. MY JK has LSD and BLD, with a new set of 33" Dyna Pro M/Ts. Mud is no sweat. You really have to screw up to get stuck. In terms of technology, the JK is to all previous Wranglers like the F-22 is to the F-86.
My regards,
Widewing
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I have never been able to figure out what Fiat could've been thinking with the Multipla.
(http://www.channel4.com/4car/media/100-greatest/03-large/40-fiat-multipla.jpg)
I really don't want those designers anywhere near my Jeep.
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd148/tjlaven/2005_Jeep_GrandCherokee_ext_1.jpg)
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JKs have BLD (Brake Lock Differentials), and there is an algorithm in the computer that distributes torque to the four wheels (drive by wire throttle). The computer determines how much torque is required and distributes power. In some ways, this system is better in mud than locked differentials. Besides, mud is about horsepower, RPM and momentum. MY JK has LSD and BLD, with a new set of 33" Dyna Pro M/Ts. Mud is no sweat. You really have to screw up to get stuck. In terms of technology, the JK is to all previous Wranglers like the F-22 is to the F-86.
My regards,
Widewing
You (possibly intentionally ?) didn't mention driver skill.
There is a Jeep Jamboree about an hour from here in the NJ Pine Barrens. They do it once a year, and this weekend is when this year's will be held.
I went one year. They charge $250/person (less for kids). The price includes meals, an hour mandatory training Sat. & Sun, and the trail guides along the way. Even with the training, it still doesn't help some folks. There are holes in the Pine Barrens that can almost swallow my TJ. The only time I got stuck (without being able to get myself out with the Hi-Jack, tow strap and/or come-a-long) was when I went on the Jamboree. The knowledge of the "trail guides" leaves a bit to be desired. I prefer the slow and steady approach, keeping the R's at a decent level, and not losing my momentum. Having me stop in the bog to wait for the numb-nuts in front of me to figure out what he was doing was the wrong answer. It was the only time I needed a recovery vehicle to yank me out. I will NEVER pay that much to go wheeling in a public place ever again. I will go this weekend, on my own however, and have a laugh with my son, watching them. :devil
My TJ has the 4.0 inline and it was one of the reasons I bought it (it's an 06), while they were still putting them in. I've had a few Wranglers over the years and as far as I am concerned, nothing beats the old straight six. What I like is the reliability, the overabundance of parts for them, the ease of repair, and the power they make. I beat the crap out of all my vehicles, and they seem to hold up to the abuse the most. I like my torque range right where it is, and since it is a stick (and yes, I kinda dig the 6-speed), I can coax what I need out of the engine when I need it.. It's a Sport, so it has the Dana 44 like the Rubicon, but not the auto lockers (which I do not like to begin with as IMO they are horrible in the snow). I have never been in a situation (yet) where I wished I had lockers.
I don't need any more top end, and I don't like the fact that the V-6 makes the power in the higher RPM range. I need (and prefer) the low-end torque without having to wind it up too much. It is, IMO, harder to crawl over stuff when you have to juice it too much to get the pull you need. If speed is what I want, I'll take the '69 Goat out of the garage and go romp on it. The TJ is definitely NOT a speed machine. I've installed the flux capacitor, I just can't get the Jeep to hit 88mph :D
Just my .002
-Dan
"If I wanted a hummer, I would have called your sister"
O|||||||O .......there is only one. (for now, I guess)
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"If I wanted a hummer, I would have called your sister"
O|||||||O .......there is only one. (for now, I guess)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/Masherbrum/Chupa.jpg)
That is my Club President's 99 TJ. He grenaded Reverse, 1st and 2nd pulling an H1 out of mud, up to it's hub. We helped him swap the transmission, but it pissed off the H1 driver that a TJ could, after he said "It couldn't."
My Club is the most Active Club in Michigan. We hold a Winter Run that now rivals the Nationally known "Sno-Blind" event. We also clear 50 miles of trails twice a year for the DNR.
But WW, come out to Michigan, I'll have you "pulling cable" in no time. We have a JK in our club, but even says the lack of low end torque is crappy (He has a Rubicon JK). It's a shame they ditched the Straight 6 for "fuel economy". If you want "fuel economy", Jeep should be last on anyone's list.
But, you SHOULD try and drive out here in January for our "Sno-Fari Event". This year we had TJ's with 6.0L's, on 38's getting stuck. The snow was at the MINIMUM 30" deep. Summer brings on Mud in places that will envelop any vehicle without mercy.
Our Clubs logo was designed by my best friend, who is the Tresurer:
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/Masherbrum/SOFO.gif)
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There hasn't been a lot of snow here fro the past few years, but Rausch Creek off-road park is about an hour or so North of here (kinda pricy, and too many rules) and the Pine Barrens in Jersey are free. There are many different kinds of terrain there (not too much crawling to be had, though as New Jersey is, for the most part, one huge sand bar). Plenty of mud there though, especially in the spring, big holes to go swamping in, bogs, pea gravel, sand pits, fording, etc. I suggest you bring a GPS, though (and not a cell phone style either, as there is no signal). If you have ever seen the Sopranos episode where Paulie got lost in the Pine Barrens, it really is no joke, and if you go off the beaten path, it's not hard to lose your bearings.
Probably the most fun you can have for the price of a tank of gas (fill up in Hammonton before you go) and a bag lunch. It's as legal to wheel there as you want it to be. Just don't go destroying the ecology (i.e. no making new paths as there are plenty there to be had already).
Tread lightly.......
slightlyoffroaders.com (http://slightlyoffroaders.com)
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I have never been able to figure out what Fiat could've been thinking with the Multipla.
[/img]
Along with Ferrari, they also own Maserati: -
(http://www.finalsense.com/news/image/auto/maserati-gran-turismo.jpg)
And Alfa Romeo...
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2006/11/061025_ar_8c_10_1024.jpg)
So we should be willing to forgive them for a mistake or two :)