Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Cajunn on May 21, 2009, 05:12:49 AM
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I have read about it and really don't understand it, I see guys especially in the p-38's always seem to have energy to spare and I just don't know how they achieve it. I fly the P-38 and it feels like a lumbering bomber, and then I fight against one and its like a rocket. I think that is why I fly the Spit 16 so much, it just so responsive and well it feel's light like there isn't that resistance in the handling. I think to be able to move to the next stage of ability I need to learn the concept of energy management or how to use it and would anyone be kind enough to maybe show and explain this to me.
Thanks, Cajunn
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I have read about it and really don't understand it, I see guys especially in the p-38's always seem to have energy to spare and I just don't know how they achieve it. I fly the P-38 and it feels like a lumbering bomber, and then I fight against one and its like a rocket. I think that is why I fly the Spit 16 so much, it just so responsive and well it feel's light like there isn't that resistance in the handling.
If you promise to fly the 38 full time for at least a month, I'd be willing to work with you.
Not to move this thread into the Spit16 90+page debate, but the room for error in the Spit16 is much greater.
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If you promise to fly the 38 full time for at least a month, I'd be willing to work with you.
Not to move this thread into the Spit16 90+page debate, but the room for error in the Spit16 is much greater.
you got a deal.....you show me energy management and I will fly it for at least a full tour and if it works out for me I'll fly it all the time. I really love the plane just never had a handle on it.
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Cajunn,
you should take up Delirium on his offer....it would be a month of learning & study, well spent
also read up on the following Energy Management links:
Murdr's Basic Energy Theory:
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/emanage/emanage.htm
AWDOS's Dead Duck's Energy Management Lesson 1 & Lesson 2 write ups ( Transcripts ):
Lesson 1 ---> http://www.netaces.org/e-fight/e-fight1.htm
Lesson 2 ---> http://www.netaces.org/e-fight2/e-fight2.htm
Bullethead's Energy Management Lecture:
dang lost the bookmark to this one.will post it if I find it again
edit: I see you posted while I was typing.... Delirium will set you straight......... Good Luck
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Cajunn,
you should take up Delirium on his offer....it would be a month of learning & study, well spent
also read up on the following Energy Management links:
Murdr's Basic Energy Theory:
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/emanage/emanage.htm
AWDOS's Dead Duck's Energy Management Lesson 1 & Lesson 2 write ups ( Transcripts ):
Lesson 1 ---> http://www.netaces.org/e-fight/e-fight1.htm
Lesson 2 ---> http://www.netaces.org/e-fight2/e-fight2.htm
Bullethead's Energy Management Lecture:
dang lost the bookmark to this one.will post it if I find it again
edit: I see you posted while I was typing.... Delirium will set you straight......... Good Luck
Thanks, I have read and tried to understand it but the concept eludes me. And I'm always willing to learn, I have worked with mtnman some but I never had any success and I think it was because of the fact I didn't understand energy management.
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Delirium,
Would you be willing to take on another as well? I've read all the articles I can find about the subject (those links included) and although I think I have a grasp on the basic understanding, putting it into practice is another thing. I was flying the other night and was trying to dogfight a 38..trying..he was flipping/rolling/going vertical, he was everywhere. It was actually fun to watch a great pilot fly.
Thanks.
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Sorry I can't fly the p-38, great attack plane but I do a lot of defending and that thing is a big'ol slow target, I upped probably 30 of them and I bet I lose well 30 of them. It's a good vulching plane no doubt, but as for as base defense it really sucks. I want to learn energy management but I really don't see the bright side to the P-38 as a fighter, so your going to have to really convince me that its the right plane in that respect. I was having trouble with 190's and that is just not something I'm use too. And I had to keep one to two notches of flaps all the time to keep it from crashing into the ground while trying to turn with a 190,D-9 at that. It was as if every time I would get it low, the ground was pulling it down. I respect you guys that fly it but when I have to work harder at trying to fly a plane than fighting it, then it just zaps the fun right out of it.
But I would still like to learn Energy management............
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Delirium,
Would you be willing to take on another as well? I've read all the articles I can find about the subject (those links included) and although I think I have a grasp on the basic understanding, putting it into practice is another thing. I was flying the other night and was trying to dogfight a 38..trying..he was flipping/rolling/going vertical, he was everywhere. It was actually fun to watch a great pilot fly.
Thanks.
Generally, I'll take on one student at a time. My very limited schedule is even more limited now than ever and I don't want to have anyone feel neglected.
I can teach the basics but I really enjoy those that have a limited knowledge of BFM/ACM transitioning to the P38. Granted not all of them stay in the 38, but flying one for a time usually helps them transition to a ride they may like.
PM me your availability and I'll see what I can do. This week, this weekend and up until Wednesday of next week looks ugly for me. Usually I am available Sun/Wed/Sat and weekdays up until 10pm est.
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First: There's two types of energy; kinetic (speed) and potential (altitude). The sum of these is your E. Either one can be converted to the other with no significant overall loss of total E. You can dive to convert alt to speed and climb to convert speed to alt.
Next: When dogfighting you want to maintain best corner velocity whenever possible. Corner velocity is the best turn rate for your aircraft which isn't nessesarily, and in fact is almost never, the tightest turn radius. The best turn rate is the fastest you can turn 360 degrees as measured in seconds. For most planes in the game the best turn rate is somewhere between the ability to pull blackout and just as you enter the stall buzzer but haven't yet started to buffet.
So: The primary differentiation between energy fighting and stall fighting is in maintaining corner velocity or pulling past it. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. If you're energy fighting you have greater mastery of the vertical, a place that the P-38 excells, and better overall control of your aircraft. If you're stall fighting you can pull inside your opponent for a lead shot but at the expense of E. The key is to be able to determine when to transition from an E fight to a stall fight and back again which comes with experience. That's why most recommend limited and short duration use of flaps. Flaps help improve lift getting over the top and help instantaneous turn rate but usually reduce constant turn rate. Once you're fully commited to a stall fight you're usually fully commited to the end so use the stall buffet cautiously unless your positive you'll win quickly.
Simple description but I hope that helps.
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Sorry I can't fly the p-38, great attack plane but I do a lot of defending and that thing is a big'ol slow target,
That is one of the reasons the P38 is a great plane to learn, you cannot afford to make mistakes. If I am in a rolling scissor with a 109K and I fail to show him the flat aspect of the bird when we cross, it is an instant ride to the tower.
I was having trouble with 190's and that is just not something I'm use too. And I had to keep one to two notches of flaps all the time to keep it from crashing into the ground while trying to turn with a 190,D-9 at that. It was as if every time I would get it low, the ground was pulling it down.
Generally flaps up in the vertical (unless you want to nose over a more quickly), and flaps down and throttle back when nose low. Most of the time, use the vertical and natural radial G to increase the rate of your nose. Here is what a 474th P38 driver said;
"With low drag, it was easy to get to the
critical Mach. The flat plate area of the bird was about the size of a folding card
table and it went like hell with the nose down."
But I would still like to learn Energy management............
I'm still willing to help you, even if you're not interested in flying the 38. Until we meet, make a point of watching your accelerometer (G Meter) even if you need to record your films to do so.
Remember, you never stop learning ACM. I'm definitely not the best and I get schooled quite often but like that old song goes, "Brush yourself off and get up and do it again".
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That is one of the reasons the P38 is a great plane to learn, you cannot afford to make mistakes. If I am in a rolling scissor with a 109K and I fail to show him the flat aspect of the bird when we cross, it is an instant ride to the tower.
Generally flaps up in the vertical (unless you want to nose over a more quickly), and flaps down and throttle back when nose low. Most of the time, use the vertical and natural radial G to increase the rate of your nose. Here is what a 474th P38 driver said;
I'm still willing to help you, even if you're not interested in flying the 38. Until we meet, make a point of watching your accelerometer (G Meter) even if you need to record your films to do so.
Remember, you never stop learning ACM. I'm definitely not the best and I get schooled quite often but like that old song goes, "Brush yourself off and get up and do it again".
well I'm not going to stop flying it, I'm not letting that the thing get the best of me.......and maybe it's just not the best plane to defend with but I learned a lot about what not to do tonight. And I learned tonight its not an F4U when it comes to using the flaps.....so I will take you up and just let me know when your available I can tell you I'm off until next wed. and after that I work 24hrs on and 24hrs off for 14 days. So whenever you have time just let me know, I check the BBS everyday so leave me a PM
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Good to hear!
I posted a note in the SAPP forums, hopefully someone will attend to you before my next available day (Wednesday next week). Either way, I can work with you then...
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First: There's two types of energy; kinetic (speed) and potential (altitude). The sum of these is your E. Either one can be converted to the other with no significant overall loss of total E. You can dive to convert alt to speed and climb to convert speed to alt.
Next: When dogfighting you want to maintain best corner velocity whenever possible. Corner velocity is the best turn rate for your aircraft which isn't nessesarily, and in fact is almost never, the tightest turn radius. The best turn rate is the fastest you can turn 360 degrees as measured in seconds. For most planes in the game the best turn rate is somewhere between the ability to pull blackout and just as you enter the stall buzzer but haven't yet started to buffet.
So: The primary differentiation between energy fighting and stall fighting is in maintaining corner velocity or pulling past it. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. If you're energy fighting you have greater mastery of the vertical, a place that the P-38 excells, and better overall control of your aircraft. If you're stall fighting you can pull inside your opponent for a lead shot but at the expense of E. The key is to be able to determine when to transition from an E fight to a stall fight and back again which comes with experience. That's why most recommend limited and short duration use of flaps. Flaps help improve lift getting over the top and help instantaneous turn rate but usually reduce constant turn rate. Once you're fully commited to a stall fight you're usually fully commited to the end so use the stall buffet cautiously unless your positive you'll win quickly.
Simple description but I hope that helps.
thanks!
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Sorry I can't fly the p-38, great attack plane but I do a lot of defending and that thing is a big'ol slow target, I upped probably 30 of them and I bet I lose well 30 of them. It's a good vulching plane no doubt, but as for as base defense it really sucks. I want to learn energy management but I really don't see the bright side to the P-38 as a fighter, so your going to have to really convince me that its the right plane in that respect. I was having trouble with 190's and that is just not something I'm use too. And I had to keep one to two notches of flaps all the time to keep it from crashing into the ground while trying to turn with a 190,D-9 at that. It was as if every time I would get it low, the ground was pulling it down. I respect you guys that fly it but when I have to work harder at trying to fly a plane than fighting it, then it just zaps the fun right out of it.
But I would still like to learn Energy management............
You give up too soon! :)
Nothing more fun then wading into a mob in the old 38G. The challenge is sticking with it and finding the edge and beyond. I'm a Spit history fanatic, but what I'm seeing you say is that you are used to immediate gratification and not working for it much. A D9 driver would be goofy to try and turn fight a 38. In fact that's what I hope for when the 190s are around. Come on down and get slow with my 38...please! :)
The word is out among the 38 guys to keep an eye out for ya Cajunn. You are more then welcome to wing up.
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You give up too soon! :)
Nothing more fun then wading into a mob in the old 38G. The challenge is sticking with it and finding the edge and beyond. I'm a Spit history fanatic, but what I'm seeing you say is that you are used to immediate gratification and not working for it much. A D9 driver would be goofy to try and turn fight a 38. In fact that's what I hope for when the 190s are around. Come on down and get slow with my 38...please! :)
The word is out among the 38 guys to keep an eye out for ya Cajunn. You are more then welcome to wing up.
Thank you, I'm trying and I think it would go better but it seems like the 38 gets all the attention in a fight.
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My P-38 exploits so for, not very promising.......but a work in progress. :cry
Feel free to criticize!!!
http://www.mediafire.com/?wdzdkjymtym
Oh and I love the 38G, it feels like a different plane from the other two!
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p38 being popular in a furball is what makes it fun... Give it time, you'll grow to love the bomber. :D
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Flaps and throttle are as important in the 38 as E management.
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Part of the reason a G feels lighter is because it is on any given percent of fuel load. The G has no leading edge tanks as in the J and L.
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My P-38 exploits so for, not very promising.......but a work in progress. :cry
Feel free to criticize!!!
http://www.mediafire.com/?wdzdkjymtym
Oh and I love the 38G, it feels like a different plane from the other two!
I watched the film. Two things you need to improve on, and both will help in any plane you fly, but are very important in the 38.... SA (situational Awareness) and "getting skinny".
In most cases in that film you were killed by guys you didn't see untill it was too late. You should try to know where every plane in the area is at all times. The more guys, the tougher it becomes. Those that do it well are at the top of the food chain :D It's easy while just tooling along, but in a fight it's harder, but far more important. While you are chasing, or turning with a bad guy you still have to be scanning the views to update yourself where everyone is, more often the better. Don't get so fixated on the target your chasing, continue your scans!
"Getting Skinny" is giving the bad guy the worst possible profile of your plane as you can WHEN he has a shot opportunity. If your doing a flat scissor and you are the one out front, each time you pass in front of his plane he has a shot at you. If your plane is rolled over 90 degrees so you can pull into your turn your giving him the whole top view of your plane to shoot at. However, if just as he's coming into the "shot zone" you roll your plane level for that second or so he is shooting all he has is a profile of the side of your plane, much harder to hit.
Combining getting skinny with good SA and it makes you much harder to hit, let alone down. The longer you stay in the air the better the chance of them making a mistake you can capitalize on, and the more attacks you can make, getting more kills.
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Energy management means not climbing into a fight......
Energy management means not pulling more g than needed......
Energy management means careful and judicious use of flaps......
Energy management means maneuvering up and down, avoiding flat turns......
Energy management means using the enemy's energy against him......
Energy management means being able to judge an enemy's E state......
Energy management means manipulating your energy, both kinetic and potential, in a manner that does not adversely waste or misuse your total E.
In your film you elect to climb up to a fight. That places you at a serious energy deficit from the get-go. Climb away from the fight until you are at least at the altitude of the combatants. Then, turn towards the furball.
Work up and down, convert potential energy into speed (kinetic energy), convert speed into altitude (potential energy).
If you want to learn E management, fly aircraft that do not build E easily. I recommend the P-40E or the Ki-61. These fighters offer poor acceleration, but excellent dive capability. Both zoom climb well enough, both turn well enough. Both suffer badly from excessive flap use.
Situational Awareness is the MOST important skill you can develop. You may be the best 1v1 pilot on earth, but if you lack solid situational awareness, you will not survive long in the MA. Stop by the TA and we will organize a 3v1 exercise. You will quickly find out how good or bad your SA is.
Last evening I was involved in a huge furball while flying a P-40E. My dilemma was that there were 15+ bad guys and only two or three of us. This fight developed over a friendly V-base, thus, guys who were shot down immediately rolled Wirbles. For those of us remaining, it provided a quasi refuge. Yet, the enemy had more than enough foolish pilots willing to risk the Wirbles. I managed to kill a Zero, Niki and 190A-8, before the Wirbles made it an assist bonanza. Several Wirbles turreted themselves shooting me as I closely followed enemy fighters. It was a hoot. 15 against 2 and we were holding our own. Eventually, gas became an issue and I bellied in between two Wirbles on the main pad. Three kills and 5 assists.... Not even a scratch to my Kittyhawk. At least a dozen Bish tried to pick me, but I was able to evade every one, pinging up most on the overshoot. The secret is simple. See them soon enough, and maneuver out of plane. Pickers are usually carrying lots of speed. That speed is your friend. It limits their options. What you need to learn is how to take advantage of the enemy's excess speed.
This comes from constantly practicing fighting off multiple enemy fighters. Do this enough and you will learn to recognize E states, recognize the greatest threat and spot the opportunist pickers in time to use their E against them.
P-38s are great fun and excellent fighters. However, they are relatively easy to manage E in. Mix in some dogs... P-40s, Ki-61, F4F-4, P-39D and the like. Develop good E management skills and the P-38 will feel like a rocket in comparison.
I am adding a link to a film of a training fight with Buddy. Buddy and I work on his ACM several times a week. Buddy is making excellent progress. His biggest issue is a joystick that appears to spike. Eventually, Buddy will be an excellent pilot. in the film, we are practicing merges and 1v1 fights. I am flying a P-40E, Buddy is in an F6F. Watch from the "fixed" view, zoomed all the way in. Smooth control inputs are important to conserving E. "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast". Remember that statement, it's gospel. In this exercise, E management means generally maintaining a better E state than the faster, more powerful fighter. It is essential to gaining and then maintaining the tactical advantage.
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=610d1165a51694232fb2ca15d7ea42d9e04e75f6e8ebb871 (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=610d1165a51694232fb2ca15d7ea42d9e04e75f6e8ebb871)
My regards,
Widewing
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Cajunn,
after you read Widewing's wonderful post & review the linked film......reread the quote in your username signature........that is E management ;)
good quick excerpt Widewing :aok
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OK to give a clear example of what Widewing is talking about.
Follow me into a fight. I do it exactly the opposite of what Widewing says :)
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OK to give a clear example of what Widewing is talking about.
Follow me into a fight. I do it exactly the opposite of what Widewing says :)
Yeah, no doubt... I find myself fighting uphill all the time..... :rock
By all means, don't look at me as an example....lol
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OK to give a clear example of what Widewing is talking about.
Follow me into a fight. I do it exactly the opposite of what Widewing says :)
The thing is, once you figure out how/why to do it "right", you'll often find you can get away with doing it "wrong", hehe!
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OK to give a clear example of what Widewing is talking about.
Follow me into a fight. I do it exactly the opposite of what Widewing says :)
I've actually found that following you into a fight is the easiest way to score kills. It's uncanny, I plotted my K/S, K/T once for various tours against the number of sorties you flew and their was a direct relationship. :D
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OK I have a couple of problems, when I come in on another plane and he does his break turn and I pull up and when I'm coming back over the top I have a feeling this is the wrong thing because it usually ends up bad for me. And I don't have a clue how I can have a clear E advantage on some planes and they do there break turn, then reverses and they still have the E to take a lead shot and I'm at the top of my climb in to stall range. But if I dive in on them and stay level after my pass I can run clear away from them, so I have the speed (energy) to pull away from them in level flight, but with the same energy and I can't get away by going vertical.
And I'm talking about being in the p-38, never happens in the F4U.
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Why would you want to get away? :)
Just shoot em!
If you are talking the 38G, you won't get away anyway. The J and L guys are much better at conserving their E and controlling the fight better. Us 38G guys just turn until we're 38G parts. :D
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Why would you want to get away? :)
Just shoot em!
If you are talking the 38G, you won't get away anyway. The J and L guys are much better at conserving their E and controlling the fight better. Us 38G guys just turn until we're 38G parts. :D
That explains it, it sicken me to find out I couldn't rope in the P-38 but I was flying the G model. I wasn't trying to get away, but after having a couple of planes climb back up with me I was out of options :P
When I'm trying to get the handle on a new plane I spend a lot of time in the offline arena practicing mostly at stall speeds with flaps. While doing this in the P-38G I noticed that it would do some really amazing things and I though I would share this because it was so cool in the last part of the film I was doing loops without touching the joystick, just flaps and throttle. I know it has nothing to do with ACM but it is just the way I get the feel for a new ride.
http://www.mediafire.com/?jnnmnm4lumy
I fell in love with the G, geez I guess I'll just have to die a lot because I think I'll stick with that one as my new main ride!
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OK I have a couple of problems, when I come in on another plane and he does his break turn and I pull up and when I'm coming back over the top I have a feeling this is the wrong thing because it usually ends up bad for me. And I don't have a clue how I can have a clear E advantage on some planes and they do there break turn, then reverses and they still have the E to take a lead shot and I'm at the top of my climb in to stall range. But if I dive in on them and stay level after my pass I can run clear away from them, so I have the speed (energy) to pull away from them in level flight, but with the same energy and I can't get away by going vertical.
And I'm talking about being in the p-38, never happens in the F4U.
Without a film, this is somewhat of a speculation, but...
When that guy does his "break turn", and you zoom up, how hard are you making him break? How much E is he really losing there? And how hard are you pulling up? How much E are you losing when you do?
Just to jump to the "worst-case" example. Low, E-conscious pilot, vs a high, not-so-E-conscious pilot. High guy dives in...
If the lower guy is paying attention he can start his break a little early, which allows him to make his "break turn" pretty gently, nowhere near a blackout, and very slightly nose-down, so he really isn't losing much speed at all. He may even gain a bit of speed, although he'll lose some alt (not much, I'm not talking about him diving away...). This isn't really a break-turn at all, and has a slight E-penalty, which is good for the low guy. He'll safely dodge the shot, without losing much E...
High guy sees the "break turn", and pulls hard to zoom back up. If he's pulling hard to zoom back up, especially if he's going into partial black-out, and especially if his initial dive takes him below the level of the defensive pilot, he's giving up lots of E. IMO, diving below the enemy pilot is bad, since you're wasting E (speed/zoom) just to get back up to the "lower" guys altitude...
What's the result so far? The higher pilot has scrubbed a bunch of E, and the lower guy has retained the majority of his... The E-disparity isn't as bad as it was initially, and the lower guy is making the fight much more "equal", (and it's only been one pass...)
Now, here's what often happens in my fights from a low position like this... I reverse early, saving my E. The high guy blows a lot of E in his dive, and zooms up. If he's not careful when he zooms, he may give me a "corner" to cut across. He's zooming, but either at an angle that allows me to reach him with a shorter, (but vertical) climb, or else he's zooming vertically, but off to one side, which allows me to fly an angled climb to "cut across" the gap... This can happen after two or three dive attacks by the high plane, or after his initial attack, depending on the individual situation.
For the lower plane to follow the higher plane up, there's some risk of a "rope" of course. But, if the lower guy is good at reading E, the risk can be minimal. Going up after the guy to shoot him at the top of his zoom may actually be safer than allowing the fight to drag out another 30 seconds...
Another concept at work in these situations is "useful altitude". I forget exactly how Shaw described it, so bear with me. Useful alt (in my mind at least) is the altitude that a plane has enough speed to be under adequate control to manuever well. So, if you're at 10k, but only flying at 50mph, you'll need to dive to regain enough speed to manuever. That may take let's say 2000ft. Your current alt may be 10k, but your "useful alt" may be only 8k. Conversely, if your at 8k but flying at 400mph, you can easily climb to 10k, and still be fast enough to manuever well. In that case, you're currently at 8k, with a "useful alt" of 10k. See the difference?
Now, back to the first example. The lower guy may start at 6k, with a useful alt of 6k (we'll, make it easy). The higher guy starts at 10k, with a 10k useful alt. If the lower guy does his gentle "break turn" slightly nose-down, and picking up speed, he may exit the turn at 5k, but still have a useful alt of 6k. The high guy dives in and pulls his E-robbing, high-G zoom, and bounces back up to say 9k, where he (near-stall)(worst-case example to clarify the situation) reverses for another dive. What's happened here? The high guy is reversing from his zoom at 9k, but slow. What's his useful alt? It's lower... Maybe only 7K when all is said and done... The fight started with a 4k "useful alt" disparity, which has already been reduced to a 1k disparity. Bad news for the "high guy". He's well on his way to being killed, and probably doesn't realize it yet. He has the advantage after all, right?
What if the process repeats? It's actually possible for the low guy to have a higher "useful alt" than the "high" guy, especially if this repeats, or if the beginning useful alts aren't so different at the start. What happens if the high guy zooms, when the low guy has a higher useful alt? The low guy kills the high guy. I think of it as "roping in reverse".
Another simple way to visualize an advantageous way to use the "useful alt" idea is for a plane that holds E well to come into a fight at 10k, at 325mph. Just before entering icon range, he drops down to 7-8k, but now at 425mph. He's "hiding his E" now. To another plane, he appears "lower" than what his useful alt actually is... Another plane that is currently higher, but equal or (possibly even lower) in useful E may make an "E-expensive" initial attack, only to find out that he now has a severe E disadvantage... He's getting roped! But how? He started higher, right?!?
I'll try to find films to illustrate, but it may not be until later.
What if the low guy uses this "useful alt" disparity along with the angles possibilities mentioned earlier?
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So what I'm looking for, and the problem I'm having is not E management (which I guess it is) but E retention.........and the reason I don't have the problem in F4U's and 51's etc. is because even though I'm diving in on a lower guy I have a lot more stored E because of the higher speeds I can obtain. And the problem in the 38's is that I'm having to keep the speeds down and though I have the E advantage its not as much as it appears. So the higher speed's, say in the F4U, is actually making up for my poor ability to control my energy.
thanks mtnman, it's frustrating but I guess it will all come together sooner or later.
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The 38 holds its "E" just as well as the pony and the F4, and can run the same speeds, it just takes a bit more thought in your angles and when to hit the throttles. I've caught ponies on the deck in my 38 before, you just have to have the right angle to dive in to work past any tightening of the controls.
You said you spent time practicing with the 38 on the deck all flaps out. That's great, but it's only one end of the spectrum of the 38, its high speed capabilities are the other end. Spend some time diving form 5k, 10k, 15k and you'll see the different times the compression comes in, make a bit more shallow angle and the the compression comes in later, or not at all. The "G" can rope as well as any, you just have to be a bit more sure of the enemy's "E" state
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So what I'm looking for, and the problem I'm having is not E management (which I guess it is) but E retention.........and the reason I don't have the problem in F4U's and 51's etc. is because even though I'm diving in on a lower guy I have a lot more stored E because of the higher speeds I can obtain. And the problem in the 38's is that I'm having to keep the speeds down and though I have the E advantage its not as much as it appears. So the higher speed's, say in the F4U, is actually making up for my poor ability to control my energy.
thanks mtnman, it's frustrating but I guess it will all come together sooner or later.
First a nit-pick: "because even though I'm diving in on a lower guy I have a lot more stored E because of the higher speeds I can obtain"
As long as you're not backing off the throttle you have nearly the exact same E at the top of your dive as you have at the bottom. You've just converted alt (potential E) to speed (kinetic E).
"And the problem in the 38's is that I'm having to keep the speeds down and though I have the E advantage its not as much as it appears."
You are actually losing E throughout your dive if you're backing off the throttle to keep speeds down. There is a point at which flying any higher will become unrealized potential unless you work entirely within the alt range where you can dive and pull back to the same starting alt. That's not a bad thing but giving it up is just another decision you make. I often find myself diving in, throttle chopped with full rudder and opposite ailerons slipping to keep my speed down to join in the fun below me.
"So the higher speed's, say in the F4U, is actually making up for my poor ability to control my energy."
Controlling E is not all about saving E. Often losing E is preferable to set up a shot, pull an inside turn, etc. The guy zooming in with a ton of smash who trys to get into a turn fight is usually giving up position to a lower E state opponent who's turning tighter, not limited by blackout. As long as it's safe to do I try to get my E state close to that of my opponent then tweak it up or down as needed to gain position unless I'm just in a full B'n'Z. The key is to fly the plane within the envelope where it performs at it's best and does the things you need it to do like getting over the top for instance.
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when I come in on another plane and he does his break turn and I pull up and when I'm coming back over the top I have a feeling this is the wrong thing because it usually ends up bad for me.
Here's a very simple trick that will give you some vertical seperation:
If a guy in plane indeed makes a break turn after the merge and you are looking to get on top of him, go up in the same direction he's turning. In other words, if he breaks to his left, don't go straight up, go up and left too(your left). If the bad guy continues his break turn in an attempt to get on your climbing 6, this will force him to perform a much greater turn than 180 degrees to do so, robbing him of crucial energy. If you see this, you know you have a kill. This often results in a spiral rope(my favorite)
If the guy sees you going up/left and he quickly starts to reverse his turn to the right in order to get your 6 as you go up, simply roll a bit so you are now climbing to the right. You will again be vectoring away from his flight path. Here' he's going to be pulling G's to change his course again causing him to bleed E. You will be primarily rolling to change course, scrubbing little E.
This very basic move can give you that little E seperation you need. In both cases, even if it doesn't produce a kill on the spot, you are going to be in control of the fight and free to be aggressive. :salute
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thanks guys, little by little I'm starting to understand.