energy management

[Cajunn]

I have read about it and really don't understand it, I see guys especially in the p-38's always seem to have energy to spare and I just don't know how they achieve it. I fly the P-38 and it feels like a lumbering bomber, and then I fight against one and its like a rocket. I think that is why I fly the Spit 16 so much, it just so responsive and well it feel's light like there isn't that resistance in the handling. I think to be able to move to the next stage of ability I need to learn the concept of energy management or how to use it and would anyone be kind enough to maybe show and explain this to me.


Thanks, Cajunn   

[Delirium]

I have read about it and really don't understand it, I see guys especially in the p-38's always seem to have energy to spare and I just don't know how they achieve it. I fly the P-38 and it feels like a lumbering bomber, and then I fight against one and its like a rocket. I think that is why I fly the Spit 16 so much, it just so responsive and well it feel's light like there isn't that resistance in the handling.

If you promise to fly the 38 full time for at least a month, I'd be willing to work with you.

Not to move this thread into the Spit16 90+page debate, but the room for error in the Spit16 is much greater.

[Cajunn]

If you promise to fly the 38 full time for at least a month, I'd be willing to work with you.

Not to move this thread into the Spit16 90+page debate, but the room for error in the Spit16 is much greater.

you got a deal.....you show me energy management and I will fly it for at least a full tour and if it works out for me I'll fly it all the time. I really love the plane just never had a handle on it.

[TequilaChaser]

Cajunn,
you should take up Delirium on his offer....it would be a month of learning & study, well spent

also read up on the following Energy Management links:

Murdr's Basic Energy Theory:
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/emanage/emanage.htm

AWDOS's Dead Duck's Energy Management Lesson 1 & Lesson 2 write ups ( Transcripts ):
  Lesson 1 ---> http://www.netaces.org/e-fight/e-fight1.htm

  Lesson 2 ---> http://www.netaces.org/e-fight2/e-fight2.htm

Bullethead's Energy Management Lecture:
dang lost the bookmark to this one.will post it if I find it again


edit: I see you posted while I was typing.... Delirium will set you straight......... Good Luck

[Cajunn]

Cajunn,
you should take up Delirium on his offer....it would be a month of learning & study, well spent

also read up on the following Energy Management links:

Murdr's Basic Energy Theory:
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/emanage/emanage.htm

AWDOS's Dead Duck's Energy Management Lesson 1 & Lesson 2 write ups ( Transcripts ):
  Lesson 1 ---> http://www.netaces.org/e-fight/e-fight1.htm

  Lesson 2 ---> http://www.netaces.org/e-fight2/e-fight2.htm

Bullethead's Energy Management Lecture:
dang lost the bookmark to this one.will post it if I find it again


edit: I see you posted while I was typing.... Delirium will set you straight......... Good Luck

Thanks, I have read and tried to understand it but the concept eludes me. And I'm always willing to learn, I have worked with mtnman some but I never had any success and I think it was because of the fact I didn't understand energy management.

[CajunAce]

Delirium,

    Would you be willing to take on another as well?  I've read all the articles I can find about the subject (those links included) and although I think I have a grasp on the basic understanding, putting it into practice is another thing.  I was flying the other night and was trying to dogfight a 38..trying..he was flipping/rolling/going vertical, he was everywhere.  It was actually fun to watch a great pilot fly.

Thanks.   

[Cajunn]

Sorry I can't fly the p-38, great attack plane but I do a lot of defending and that thing is a big'ol slow target, I upped probably 30 of them and I bet I lose well 30 of them. It's a good vulching plane no doubt, but as for as base defense it really sucks. I want to learn energy management but I really don't see the bright side to the P-38 as a fighter, so your going to have to really convince me that its the right plane in that respect. I was having trouble with 190's and that is just not something I'm use too. And I had to keep one to two notches of flaps all the time to keep it from crashing into the ground while trying to turn with a 190,D-9 at that. It was as if every time I would get it low, the ground was pulling it down. I respect you guys that fly it but when I have to work harder at trying to fly a plane than fighting it, then it just zaps the fun right out of it.

But I would still like to learn Energy management............   

[Delirium]

Delirium,

    Would you be willing to take on another as well?  I've read all the articles I can find about the subject (those links included) and although I think I have a grasp on the basic understanding, putting it into practice is another thing.  I was flying the other night and was trying to dogfight a 38..trying..he was flipping/rolling/going vertical, he was everywhere.  It was actually fun to watch a great pilot fly.

Thanks.   

Generally, I'll take on one student at a time. My very limited schedule is even more limited now than ever and I don't want to have anyone feel neglected.

I can teach the basics but I really enjoy those that have a limited knowledge of BFM/ACM transitioning to the P38. Granted not all of them stay in the 38, but flying one for a time usually helps them transition to a ride they may like.

PM me your availability and I'll see what I can do. This week, this weekend and up until Wednesday of next week looks ugly for me. Usually I am available Sun/Wed/Sat and weekdays up until 10pm est.

[BaldEagl]

First: There's two types of energy; kinetic (speed) and potential (altitude).  The sum of these is your E.  Either one can be converted to the other with no significant overall loss of total E.  You can dive to convert alt to speed and climb to convert speed to alt.

Next:  When dogfighting you want to maintain best corner velocity whenever possible.  Corner velocity is the best turn rate for your aircraft which isn't nessesarily, and in fact is almost never, the tightest turn radius.  The best turn rate is the fastest you can turn 360 degrees as measured in seconds.  For most planes in the game the best turn rate is somewhere between the ability to pull blackout and just as you enter the stall buzzer but haven't yet started to buffet.

So:  The primary differentiation between energy fighting and stall fighting is in maintaining corner velocity or pulling past it.  There are advantages and disadvantages to both.  If you're energy fighting you have greater mastery of the vertical, a place that the P-38 excells, and better overall control of your aircraft.  If you're stall fighting you can pull inside your opponent for a lead shot but at the expense of E.  The key is to be able to determine when to transition from an E fight to a stall fight and back again which comes with experience.  That's why most recommend limited and short duration use of flaps.  Flaps help improve lift getting over the top and help instantaneous turn rate but usually reduce constant turn rate.  Once you're fully commited to a stall fight you're usually fully commited to the end so use the stall buffet cautiously unless your positive you'll win quickly.

Simple description but I hope that helps.

[Delirium]

Sorry I can't fly the p-38, great attack plane but I do a lot of defending and that thing is a big'ol slow target,

That is one of the reasons the P38 is a great plane to learn, you cannot afford to make mistakes. If I am in a rolling scissor with a 109K and I fail to show him the flat aspect of the bird when we cross, it is an instant ride to the tower.

I was having trouble with 190's and that is just not something I'm use too. And I had to keep one to two notches of flaps all the time to keep it from crashing into the ground while trying to turn with a 190,D-9 at that. It was as if every time I would get it low, the ground was pulling it down.

Generally flaps up in the vertical (unless you want to nose over a more quickly), and flaps down and throttle back when nose low. Most of the time, use the vertical and natural radial G to increase the rate of your nose. Here is what a 474th P38 driver said;

"With low drag, it was easy to get to the
critical Mach.  The flat plate area of the bird was about the size of a folding card
table and it went like hell with the nose down."

But I would still like to learn Energy management............   

I'm still willing to help you, even if you're not interested in flying the 38. Until we meet, make a point of watching your accelerometer (G Meter) even if you need to record your films to do so.

Remember, you never stop learning ACM. I'm definitely not the best and I get schooled quite often but like that old song goes, "Brush yourself off and get up and do it again".

[Cajunn]

That is one of the reasons the P38 is a great plane to learn, you cannot afford to make mistakes. If I am in a rolling scissor with a 109K and I fail to show him the flat aspect of the bird when we cross, it is an instant ride to the tower.

Generally flaps up in the vertical (unless you want to nose over a more quickly), and flaps down and throttle back when nose low. Most of the time, use the vertical and natural radial G to increase the rate of your nose. Here is what a 474th P38 driver said;

I'm still willing to help you, even if you're not interested in flying the 38. Until we meet, make a point of watching your accelerometer (G Meter) even if you need to record your films to do so.

Remember, you never stop learning ACM. I'm definitely not the best and I get schooled quite often but like that old song goes, "Brush yourself off and get up and do it again".

well I'm not going to stop flying it, I'm not letting that the thing get the best of me.......and maybe it's just not the best plane to defend with but I learned a lot about what not to do tonight. And I learned tonight its not an F4U when it comes to using the flaps.....so I will take you up and just let me know when your available I can tell you I'm off until next wed. and after that I work 24hrs on and 24hrs off for 14 days. So whenever you have time just let me know, I check the BBS everyday so leave me a PM

[Delirium]

Good to hear!

I posted a note in the SAPP forums, hopefully someone will attend to you before my next available day (Wednesday next week). Either way, I can work with you then...

[Cajunn]

First: There's two types of energy; kinetic (speed) and potential (altitude).  The sum of these is your E.  Either one can be converted to the other with no significant overall loss of total E.  You can dive to convert alt to speed and climb to convert speed to alt.

Next:  When dogfighting you want to maintain best corner velocity whenever possible.  Corner velocity is the best turn rate for your aircraft which isn't nessesarily, and in fact is almost never, the tightest turn radius.  The best turn rate is the fastest you can turn 360 degrees as measured in seconds.  For most planes in the game the best turn rate is somewhere between the ability to pull blackout and just as you enter the stall buzzer but haven't yet started to buffet.

So:  The primary differentiation between energy fighting and stall fighting is in maintaining corner velocity or pulling past it.  There are advantages and disadvantages to both.  If you're energy fighting you have greater mastery of the vertical, a place that the P-38 excells, and better overall control of your aircraft.  If you're stall fighting you can pull inside your opponent for a lead shot but at the expense of E.  The key is to be able to determine when to transition from an E fight to a stall fight and back again which comes with experience.  That's why most recommend limited and short duration use of flaps.  Flaps help improve lift getting over the top and help instantaneous turn rate but usually reduce constant turn rate.  Once you're fully commited to a stall fight you're usually fully commited to the end so use the stall buffet cautiously unless your positive you'll win quickly.

Simple description but I hope that helps.

thanks!

[Guppy35]

Sorry I can't fly the p-38, great attack plane but I do a lot of defending and that thing is a big'ol slow target, I upped probably 30 of them and I bet I lose well 30 of them. It's a good vulching plane no doubt, but as for as base defense it really sucks. I want to learn energy management but I really don't see the bright side to the P-38 as a fighter, so your going to have to really convince me that its the right plane in that respect. I was having trouble with 190's and that is just not something I'm use too. And I had to keep one to two notches of flaps all the time to keep it from crashing into the ground while trying to turn with a 190,D-9 at that. It was as if every time I would get it low, the ground was pulling it down. I respect you guys that fly it but when I have to work harder at trying to fly a plane than fighting it, then it just zaps the fun right out of it.

But I would still like to learn Energy management............   

You give up too soon!

Nothing more fun then wading into a mob in the old 38G.   The challenge is sticking with it and finding the edge and beyond.  I'm a Spit history fanatic, but what I'm seeing you say is that you are used to immediate gratification and not working for it much.  A D9 driver would be goofy to try and turn fight a 38.  In fact that's what I hope for when the 190s are around.  Come on down and get slow with my 38...please!

The word is out among the 38 guys to keep an eye out for ya Cajunn.  You are more then welcome to wing up.

[Cajunn]

You give up too soon!

Nothing more fun then wading into a mob in the old 38G.   The challenge is sticking with it and finding the edge and beyond.  I'm a Spit history fanatic, but what I'm seeing you say is that you are used to immediate gratification and not working for it much.  A D9 driver would be goofy to try and turn fight a 38.  In fact that's what I hope for when the 190s are around.  Come on down and get slow with my 38...please!

The word is out among the 38 guys to keep an eye out for ya Cajunn.  You are more then welcome to wing up.

Thank you, I'm trying and I think it would go better but it seems like the 38 gets all the attention in a fight.