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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: fyvsix on May 26, 2009, 11:08:15 AM

Title: Tempest
Post by: fyvsix on May 26, 2009, 11:08:15 AM
These are amazing birds! I've just figured this out and thought I'd share! any comments, observations or advice?
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Anaxogoras on May 26, 2009, 11:10:50 AM
They burn as well as Typhoons when I shoot them.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: BnZs on May 26, 2009, 12:19:19 PM
I honestly do not like the thing very much. It has sterling performance and big guns of course. But IMO the less than stellar high-speed roll rate makes it easy for a target fighter to "flick" itself out of your sights while trying to b'n'z,  and the handling at high power setting/low speeds makes more of an "E fight" tricky as well.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: texastc316 on May 26, 2009, 01:20:56 PM
fast. hard to catch. big guns. bout it. I'm not a big fan of them BUT in the right hands they are one of the scariest planes in the game.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Stoney on May 26, 2009, 01:26:59 PM
I like them for "horde-busting" missions where I know I'll be outnumbered and that I'll need the speed to get in and out.  I don't mind the lazy roll rate, as I never really bank and yank in this aircraft.  Even though it will turn really well, I usually keep it fast and never load it up with high-G maneuvers, mostly due to the mission described above.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: StokesAk on May 26, 2009, 04:03:29 PM
Good for picking. Me and a squadie took some up and eneded up getting around 20 kills each in one sortie.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Spikes on May 26, 2009, 04:35:10 PM
They are good for cherry picking and running.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Kev367th on May 26, 2009, 05:23:56 PM
Did we ever get a concensus on the Tempest and Tiffie flaps?

Both flight manuals refer to using low degrees of flaps at higher speeds than 160mph, without seeming to give anything definate.

Someone posted a link to them some times back.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Becinhu on May 26, 2009, 06:20:58 PM
Great bird for bomber hunting as well as convincing the 20k gangpickers to drop some alt.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: BnZs on May 26, 2009, 06:43:16 PM
Great bird for bomber hunting as well as convincing the 20k gangpickers to drop some alt.

Why would most fighters run from a fight with a Tempest at high alt? Many kinds should have something of an advantage over it up there.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 26, 2009, 06:50:38 PM
slow acceleration, can't take fire, can't turn, handles like $h!1 at most speeds, torque is huge, and they are very very ugly.

now you know how much i love them  :D
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Lusche on May 26, 2009, 06:59:56 PM
slow acceleration, can't take fire, can't turn, handles like $h!1 at most speeds, torque is huge, and they are very very ugly.

Reads as if you did never fly / fight in one. Slow acceleration?  Can't turn?  :confused:

Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: BnZs on May 26, 2009, 08:10:09 PM
Has the best low alt accel in the game...but...it is torquey and the flaps aren't all that useful. Even a P-51D can give it a good maneuvering fight.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 26, 2009, 09:29:53 PM
Slow acceleration?  Can't turn?  :confused:

My main fighter is the spit14, and compared to that the tempest does accelerate slow. Also you saying it can turn? I know of only one fighter that can not out turn the temp and that is the 190D-9.

Quote
Reads as if you did never fly / fight in one.

no, i hate that thing...well...it's ok for bomber hunting and BnZing, but I still would not fly one. See if you are going to fly something like a temp, why not fly the 262?
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Lusche on May 26, 2009, 09:37:30 PM
My main fighter is the spit14, and compared to that the tempest does accelerate slow. Also you saying it can turn? I know of only one fighter that can not out turn the temp and that is the 190D-9.

Just because it's about 0.3 seconds slower in 150-200 acceleration than the best accelrating fighter in game, it doesnt mean the Tempest is sluggish. And above 200, the tempest accelerates faster than the XIV.

Also, to think the Temp is not capable of turning gets many pilots killed. The tempest is NOT just a faster Typhoon.

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=temp&p2=spit14

no, i hate that thing...well...it's ok for bomber hunting and BnZing, but I still would not fly one. See if you are going to fly something like a temp, why not fly the 262?

Yup.. you are completely underestimating the Tempest. :)
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 26, 2009, 09:43:07 PM
Just because it's about 0.3 seconds slower in 150-200 acceleration than the best accelrating fighter in game, it doesnt mean the Tempest is sluggish. And above 200, the tempest accelerates faster than the XIV.

You need the most acceleration under 200, at least that's where I need it. And .3 seconds can make a difference between life and death.

Also, to think the Temp is not capable of turning gets many pilots killed. The tempest is NOT just a faster Typhoon.

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=temp&p2=spit14

thous charts are not specific enough they do not show you how much fuel you have on bored to turn like that or at what altitude and speed your turning so they do not help. But even if you want to trust thous charts they show that it can not out turn a spit 14. Just think about it the typhoon's airframe was just not meant to be a turn fighter.





however i do have a lot of respect for that airplane
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Lusche on May 26, 2009, 10:06:12 PM
You need the most acceleration under 200, at least that's where I need it. And .3 seconds can make a difference between life and death.

Uh, no. A 0.4 seconds "advantage" is almost negigible.To illustrate this: Both planes  starting at 150mph. By the time the Spit 14 reaches 200mph, it has put about 15ft  between itself and the Tempest... which is accelerating faster from this point on.

Fact is, the Tempest is about as fast as you can get, not only in top speed but also particulary in acceleration.
To say it has slow acceleration is like saying the 110G suffers from weak firepower ;)

Quote

thous charts are not specific enough they do not show you how much fuel you have on bored to turn like that or at what altitude and speed your turning so they do not help.

500ft alt, 25% fuel, no fuel burn.

And yes, they do help.


Quote
But even if you want to trust thous charts they show that it can not out turn a spit 14.

That's not what they show. They do show that both planes are so close in turning performance, that it all comes down to pilot skill and initial setup. 509 to 518 feet at full flaps is basicaly no difference.

Quote
Just think about it the typhoon's airframe was just not meant to be a turn fighter.  Just think about it the typhoon's airframe was just not meant to be a turn fighter.

Yes, and it's not a turn fighter in AH. Nor is the Spit 14 by the way. But then again, the saying a plane that's able to outturn about half of the Ah fighter planeset "can't turn" is quite wrong.

Someone who's new to this would have a rather flawed perception of the Tempest when going by your statement.

Quote
however i do have a lot of respect for that airplane

So do I :)
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Larry on May 26, 2009, 10:33:12 PM
Gotta love when someone who has little to no clue about a plane comes here and tries to tell others how good/bad it is.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 26, 2009, 11:05:01 PM
Gotta love when someone who has little to no clue about a plane comes here and tries to tell others how good/bad it is.  :rolleyes:

Perhaps you want to prove us how good of a dogfighter the tempest is.....


By the way Larry, how did that world war 2 F-86 request go?
i tink it wood b kool 2 hav cuz id lokes so perdy and loke da germens used it n ww2!!! :rock :rock :rock :rock

(http://www.military.cz/usa/air/post_war/f86/f86richthoven.jpg)

got to love it when someone is asking for airplane that did not even exist in world war 2  :rofl
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 27, 2009, 12:33:21 AM
Uh, no. A 0.4 seconds "advantage" is almost negigible.To illustrate this: Both planes  starting at 150mph. By the time the Spit 14 reaches 200mph, it has put about 15ft  between itself and the Tempest... which is accelerating faster from this point on.

When your in a stall fight spitfire would do a much better job at keeping energy, thous 15ft (as you say) can give it the much needed room to maneuver. Plus the spitfire's airframe is the best at conserving energy, especially when going though a turn. Also how would the torque tempest perform in a stall fight? not very good.

500ft alt, 25% fuel, no fuel burn.

And yes, they do help.

that is the worst altitude for a spitfire 14 to fight at, if your fighting one and he is on your 6 your goal should always be to make him drop to 500ft because it is extremely bad at that altitude.

509 to 518 feet at full flaps is basicaly no difference.

Did you think about what type of flaps they both have? Spit14 can take out it's full flaps with 1 notch at 170mph, in a Temp you have to go though 5 notches of flaps and you lower all of them at 160mph.

Yes, and it's not a turn fighter in AH. Nor is the Spit 14 by the way.

Spitfire's airframe was designed to make it a turn fighter, the reason it does not turn as good as earlier spits is because it has a much heavier (and more powerful) Griffon engine.


The following graph shows that Spitfire can easily out climb the tempest:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=64&p2=38&pw=2&gtype=2)

And this graph shows that Tempest is far not the fastest at 10K and above 20K
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=64&p2=38&pw=2&gtype=0)






Just a little story: a few days ago I got away from a Tempest on spit8 with a half wing missing, how did I do it, I just climbed he could not keep up. Guess his speed did not help him get the poor wounded spitfire VIII   :cry
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Lusche on May 27, 2009, 12:43:04 AM
You can't be serious...

You made very flat and very wrong wrong statements about the Tempest, and now you are trying to turn it into a "Tempest vs Spit 14" argument?

You said it's slow accelerating, can't turn, is good only for BnZ at most. And all of that is wrong.

The fact that the Spit 14 does minimally accelerate better in a very narrow range of speed, does climb better changes nothing about that.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 27, 2009, 12:48:56 AM
These are amazing birds! I've just figured this out and thought I'd share! any comments, observations or advice?

I guess I never really gave you my honest opinion about YOU flying the tempest, so here it is:
if you like it, fly it. Your not paying $15 a month for someone to tell you not to fly what you want.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 27, 2009, 12:51:40 AM
and now you are trying to turn it into a "Tempest vs Spit 14" argument?

Your right, i need to stop lol

(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/69/derail2.jpg)

Need to make a new thread for this. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,265511.new.html#new)
I don't want to be the cause of this thread getting locked
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Ruah on May 27, 2009, 12:59:55 AM
its a great plane, but very few pilots want to spend that many perk points on it. . . thats my opinion on it.  Great plane, too highly perked.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MORAY37 on May 27, 2009, 01:07:44 AM
You need the most acceleration under 200, at least that's where I need it. And .3 seconds can make a difference between life and death.

thous charts are not specific enough they do not show you how much fuel you have on bored to turn like that or at what altitude and speed your turning so they do not help. But even if you want to trust thous charts they show that it can not out turn a spit 14. Just think about it the typhoon's airframe was just not meant to be a turn fighter.





however i do have a lot of respect for that airplane

Mach, seriously?  Turning it into a Spit vs Tempest Debate?

You do realize the Tempest has the cards, even against your vaunted Dweeb 14.  

Simply stated, a Tempest at any co-alt, SEMI Co-E state with your -14 controls his own fate. He can disengage at the first sign of trouble and you're not going to do squat diddly about it. Should you get a turn angle on him, a simple drop of the nose and reverse for the reset brings it back to stalemate.  Even should you drop in from 7K above the Tempest, his acceleration and dive profile exceeds yours.  Therefore, he, not you, controls the engagement length.  This is never an overstated point.  At no flight regime do you have the ability to break off the fight in your dweebfire....the Tempest is faster than you and dives better.  Yes you have a better climber, at a paltry 500 feet per minute at any altitude that matters (10-15K)  You put your nose up, you're giving those Hispanos a shot, if stated fight started Co-E.

Should you take the chance and dive with the Tempy, he's bringing you down into his best performance area, and your worst.

 You don't have superior escape potential, and you do not control the length of the engagement.

If someone is in a plane that has superior escape potential, he controls how long the engagement lasts, and mostly on what terms it will be fought.  

The Tempest is simply the best prop fighter in the game.  It's Kill to Death ratio is unparalleled, because a pilot can control the engagement on his terms, whether BnZ or TnB.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: SectorNine50 on May 27, 2009, 01:12:29 AM
By the way Larry, how did that world war 2 F-86 request go?
got to love it when someone is asking for airplane that did not even exist in world war 2  :rofl
You can't seriously have not have picked up on the sarcasm in his post... :confused:

You have a bad habit of not sticking to the issue.

That said, Typhoons and Tempests have always annoyed me, personally.  However, this is due to me always being underneath them... :(
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 27, 2009, 01:25:20 AM
Mach, seriously?  Turning it into a Spit vs Tempest Debate?

Try reading a few post up

(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/69/derail2.jpg)

Need to make a new thread for this. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,265511.new.html#new)
I don't want to be the cause of this thread getting locked
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Lusche on May 27, 2009, 01:30:32 AM
its a great plane, but very few pilots want to spend that many perk points on it. . . thats my opinion on it.  Great plane, too highly perked.

There are quite a lot of players spending their perks on it:

(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1532/perkplanes2008.jpg)

#2 in kills, despite having a "high" price tag.
And I don't think it's too high when considering speed, acceleration, ranage and firepower (Temp's Hispanos have 25% higher ROF than the F4U-C's).
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 27, 2009, 01:35:01 AM
There are quite a lot of players spending their perks on it:

(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1532/perkplanes2008.jpg)

#2 in kills, despite having a "high" price tag.
And I don't think it's too high when considering speed, acceleration, ranage and firepower (Temp's Hispanos have 25% higher ROF than the F4U-C's).

I bet the #s of people flying the temp will increase by a lot when they remodel it
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Lusche on May 27, 2009, 01:39:14 AM
I bet the #s of people flying the temp will increase by a lot when they remodel it

Depends on what happens during that remodeling.

The La-7 got a wonderful new cockpit and numbers flying caved in...  :noid
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 27, 2009, 01:40:29 AM
The La-7 got a wonderful new cockpit and numbers flying caved in...  :noid

I think they reduced their performance....not sure though
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: SectorNine50 on May 27, 2009, 06:52:53 AM
I think they reduced their performance....not sure though
Hitech has said many times that nothing was dramatically changed, something that had to do with the flaps.  For some reason after any plane is re-modeled everyone says that they changed it and now they hate it.  The F6F for example performs the exact same, but the rear view was worsened (more accurately iirc) and then there were many people who said that it flew differently.

I think a person's mind gets used to a cockpit and when that changes the "feeling" of the a/c changes.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Ruah on May 27, 2009, 08:35:36 AM
And I don't think it's too high when considering speed, acceleration, ranage and firepower (Temp's Hispanos have 25% higher ROF than the F4U-C's).

I agree, I should have said "I would not fly it because of the high perk points. . .but thats because I would be too afraid to lose it and I am still a newer pilot that needs to figure a lot of things out (including getting TrackIR).
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: BnZs on May 27, 2009, 09:12:15 AM
its a great plane, but very few pilots want to spend that many perk points on it. . . thats my opinion on it.  Great plane, too highly perked.

I agree. Too highly perked for what you get, takes the "fun" out of flying it by encouraging too much of a no-risk style. And encourages everything that *can* HO you to do so. Tempest and 262 both deserve a lower perk price in that regard.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Larry on May 27, 2009, 11:04:52 AM
Perhaps you want to prove us how good of a dogfighter the tempest is.....


By the way Larry, how did that world war 2 F-86 request go?
got to love it when someone is asking for airplane that did not even exist in world war 2  :rofl


God I love when jokes fly over someones head, turn back around, and hits them right in the face. You are eather very very slow or just down right dumb.

I don't have to prove anything. Stats show that the temp is very good, and Iv flown it enough to know that those stats are right.





Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Masherbrum on May 27, 2009, 11:20:32 AM
Hitech has said many times that nothing was dramatically changed, something that had to do with the flaps.  For some reason after any plane is re-modeled everyone says that they changed it and now they hate it.  The F6F for example performs the exact same, but the rear view was worsened (more accurately iirc) and then there were many people who said that it flew differently.

I think a person's mind gets used to a cockpit and when that changes the "feeling" of the a/c changes.

La7 is just fine.    If you use flaps in an La7, you need to go back to the TA.   The La7 with the right fuel load, is the BEST plane to up from a vulched field and watch 200 light up.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Becinhu on May 27, 2009, 12:36:34 PM
Why would most fighters run from a fight with a Tempest at high alt? Many kinds should have something of an advantage over it up there.
Actually took my temp into a low furball next to an enemy cv.  I wasn't BnZing but turnfighting in it.  Had 4 pelts and several assists when a 5 incher popped me.

And yes alot of planes out perform the temp up high above 15k. However, when you bust through a gaggle of cherrypickers hovering above a furball what is their reaction to a fast plane with 4 hizookas coming through their perch? They nose over and dive. Thus removing them from their perches and eliminating their alt/speed/safety advantage.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Becinhu on May 27, 2009, 12:42:23 PM
La7 is just fine.    If you use flaps in an La7, you need to go back to the TA.   The La7 with the right fuel load, is the BEST plane to up from a vulched field and watch 200 light up.
Did that last night. Knights had a NOE to a55 with around 25 planes (51s, 38s, lancs, 110s). I upped my lgay, hit WEP at wheels up.  Flew past the fighters, through the lanc stream and killed the goon flying with the lancs.  Got popped by a 110 just after, but the exploding goon was worth it (2nd goon died moments later and busted raid).
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Widewing on May 27, 2009, 06:12:23 PM
I upped my lgay, hit WEP at wheels up. 

Some advice.... Always use WEP on takeoff. Whether in WEP or normal takeoff power, the engine warms up at nearly the same rate (2 or 3 seconds difference). Thus, there is no reason not to use WEP on the takeoff run. Especially when attempting to get up to meet an incoming raid. You have 10 minutes of WEP in the La-7, don't be afraid to use it.



My regards,

Widewing
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Widewing on May 27, 2009, 06:13:18 PM
I think they reduced their performance....not sure though

Not at all.....




My regards,

Widewing
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: moot on May 27, 2009, 06:17:34 PM
The F6F for example performs the exact same, but the rear view was worsened (more accurately iirc) and
And the oil leak graphic is an abomination  :cool:
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Widewing on May 27, 2009, 06:26:51 PM
When your in a stall fight spitfire would do a much better job at keeping energy, thous 15ft (as you say) can give it the much needed room to maneuver. Plus the spitfire's airframe is the best at conserving energy, especially when going though a turn. Also how would the torque tempest perform in a stall fight? not very good.

that is the worst altitude for a spitfire 14 to fight at, if your fighting one and he is on your 6 your goal should always be to make him drop to 500ft because it is extremely bad at that altitude.

Did you think about what type of flaps they both have? Spit14 can take out it's full flaps with 1 notch at 170mph, in a Temp you have to go though 5 notches of flaps and you lower all of them at 160mph.

Spitfire's airframe was designed to make it a turn fighter, the reason it does not turn as good as earlier spits is because it has a much heavier (and more powerful) Griffon engine.


The following graph shows that Spitfire can easily out climb the tempest:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=64&p2=38&pw=2&gtype=2)

And this graph shows that Tempest is far not the fastest at 10K and above 20K
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=64&p2=38&pw=2&gtype=0)






Just a little story: a few days ago I got away from a Tempest on spit8 with a half wing missing, how did I do it, I just climbed he could not keep up. Guess his speed did not help him get the poor wounded spitfire VIII   :cry


Tell ya what Machfly, you talk like you know what you are talking about. Let's see if we can define what you really know. You take a Spit XIV and I'll take a Tempest. Standard dueling rules....  We had (and they still have) a saying in Naval Air... "No balls, no air medals".


My regards,

Widewing
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Widewing on May 27, 2009, 06:32:33 PM
And the oil leak graphic is an abomination  :cool:

Agreed... Oil will not flow forward over the cowling ring. It will mostly leak out through the cowl flaps, and a lesser degree, weep out between the cowling panels and drain out the underside. It's the leakage out of the cowl flaps that covers the windscreen.

How do I know this? 2,000+ hours of pushing R-2800s and R-1820s through the air.......


My regards,

Widewing
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Motherland on May 27, 2009, 06:33:54 PM
At least it actually appears on the fuselage now though, instead of only starting at the cockpit.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Masherbrum on May 27, 2009, 08:04:10 PM
Agreed... Oil will not flow forward over the cowling ring. It will mostly leak out through the cowl flaps, and a lesser degree, weep out between the cowling panels and drain out the underside. It's the leakage out of the cowl flaps that covers the windscreen.

How do I know this? 2,000+ hours of pushing R-2800s and R-1820s through the air.......


My regards,

Widewing

It is posts like this, that I enjoy.   First hand experience.    :salute
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 27, 2009, 08:50:12 PM

God I love when jokes fly over someones head, turn back around, and hits them right in the face. You are eather very very slow or just down right dumb.

I don't have to prove anything. Stats show that the temp is very good, and Iv flown it enough to know that those stats are right.

You are entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is, just your opinion, and if you want anyone to listen to it you better know how to prove it.

BTW, stats do not show that it's good.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Larry on May 27, 2009, 09:44:51 PM
Well, here is a fact. You have no clue what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 27, 2009, 09:47:30 PM
Well, here is a fact. You have no clue what you are talking about.

Well....I can say the same about you....
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Larry on May 27, 2009, 09:53:50 PM
You can, but you'd be wrong. Seems that's nothing new from the looks of it.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 27, 2009, 09:59:11 PM
I'm just going to stop the conversation with you larry, feels like I'm talking to a 5 year old
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Larry on May 27, 2009, 10:08:11 PM
Awwww. :cry




Bottom line is the temp flies circles around the spit14. The stats show that it's better, but you don't want to believe them. Windwing offered to duel you to show you but you ignored him. You're the one acting like a 5 year old with his fingers in his ears screaming because he doesn't want to hear the truth.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: The Fury on May 29, 2009, 04:37:08 AM
If you fly the Typhy then the Tempest straight after it the Tempest feels like a dream it feels sporty and responsive and faster, i dont care much for stats i prefer to get my own feeling with the aircraft although im not saying stats are wrong i just never look at them.

I personally think its one of the best killing machines ingame and if i see one above me in a fight the first thing i do is concentrate on killing it even if im looking at 5 other cons because you know he`s gna be coming in at 400+ mph to pick the watermelon outta ya lol.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Widewing on May 29, 2009, 01:02:38 PM
Awwww. :cry

Bottom line is the temp flies circles around the spit14. The stats show that it's better, but you don't want to believe them. Windwing offered to duel you to show you but you ignored him. You're the one acting like a 5 year old with his fingers in his ears screaming because he doesn't want to hear the truth.

He didn't ignore me at all... I have posted films of duels in the Tempest vs Spit14 thread. While the Tempest has a slight advantage, it certainly doesn't fly circles around the Spit14... Machfly is a good pilot to boot...  Having flown both in slow, high AoA dogfights, I think that the 109K-4 would beat either of them.


My regards,

Widewing
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: thrila on May 29, 2009, 01:21:02 PM
Kazaa and I had some duels between the k4 and spit 14 several of months ago.  IIRC the spit initially had the upper hand, but as soon as the fight got slow the k4's superior low speed handling really shone.  You cannot throw a spit14 about like you can a 109K.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Larry on May 29, 2009, 02:02:12 PM
He didn't ignore me at all... I have posted films of duels in the Tempest vs Spit14 thread. While the Tempest has a slight advantage, it certainly doesn't fly circles around the Spit14... Machfly is a good pilot to boot...  Having flown both in slow, high AoA dogfights, I think that the 109K-4 would beat either of them.


My regards,

Widewing

He ignored you in this thread but not the other. Tempest can turn with the spit14 and can break off the fight anytime, so it does fly circles around the spit since it controls the fight.

109K4 vs spit14 really comes down to the pilot. Iv been on both sides of that fight and really comes down to who makes a mistake first.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Karnak on May 29, 2009, 02:54:14 PM
He ignored you in this thread but not the other. Tempest can turn with the spit14 and can break off the fight anytime, so it does fly circles around the spit since it controls the fight.

109K4 vs spit14 really comes down to the pilot. Iv been on both sides of that fight and really comes down to who makes a mistake first.
And yet the Spit XIV is perked and the Bf109K-4 is not....
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Kazaa on May 29, 2009, 03:05:19 PM
The 109K4 is truly an elite A/C and one of my favourite.

Karnak, I myself have no idea why the XIV is perked and the K4 isn’t.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: MachFly on May 29, 2009, 05:00:56 PM
The 109K4 is truly an elite A/C and one of my favourite.

Karnak, I myself have no idea why the XIV is perked and the K4 isn’t.


Better yet, why do P-39Q and 109K have the same ENY?
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Larry on May 29, 2009, 09:15:41 PM

Karnak, I myself have no idea why the XIV is perked and the K4 isn't.



It comes down to armament.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Anaxogoras on May 29, 2009, 09:39:58 PM

It comes down to armament.

Isn't it obvious? :huh

On the one hand you have point and shoot Hispanos, on the other an exotic tater gun that elicits the zen-like advice "fly the gun, not the plane." :P
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: BnZs on May 29, 2009, 11:40:27 PM
Isn't it obvious? :huh

On the one hand you have point and shoot Hispanos, on the other an exotic tater gun that elicits the zen-like advice "fly the gun, not the plane." :P

Shouldn't a plane that allows you to become One With The Universe be the _ultimate_ perk ride?  :devil
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Larry on May 30, 2009, 12:55:02 AM
Isn't it obvious? :huh

On the one hand you have point and shoot Hispanos, on the other an exotic tater gun that elicits the zen-like advice "fly the gun, not the plane." :P

Imagine if the K4 had two hizokas the damage it could dish out. Only then would someone get me to agree to perk it.

That's all the Spit14 really is. A British K4 that climbs and turns better and with an upgraded gunpack. Sure the low speed handling takes some getting used to but once you do its a monster
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Karnak on May 30, 2009, 03:18:10 AM
Hispanos on a Mossie and Hispanos on a Spit XIV are two very different things in terms of "laser" like properties.  The XIV is so squirly they are very precise at missing the target.

FYI, the K-4 shouldn't be perked, but nor should the XIV.  If the XIV really should be perked, well, I have a list of other fighters that should join it on the perk list and that includes the K-4.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: SmokinLoon on May 30, 2009, 08:44:26 AM
They are good for cherry picking and running.

ding ding ding

Land 20 kills in a P40E and I'll be impressed. 
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Kazaa on May 30, 2009, 10:06:12 AM
The XIV in AH2 is a dog.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Fencer51 on May 30, 2009, 10:47:37 AM
I cannot wait until they update the 3D model of the Tempest.  Lotsa neat skins to do and I loved reading "The Big Show" and will be burning alot of perkies flying it stupidly.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Anaxogoras on May 30, 2009, 12:33:06 PM
I cannot wait until they update the 3D model of the Tempest.  Lotsa neat skins to do and I loved reading "The Big Show" and will be burning alot of perkies flying it stupidly.

"Fencer 6!" :lol
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Anaxogoras on May 30, 2009, 12:43:11 PM
Hispanos on a Mossie and Hispanos on a Spit XIV are two very different things in terms of "laser" like properties.  The XIV is so squirly they are very precise at missing the target.

FYI, the K-4 shouldn't be perked, but nor should the XIV.  If the XIV really should be perked, well, I have a list of other fighters that should join it on the perk list and that includes the K-4.

There should be a lot of other aircraft between the K-4 and the XIV that would also be perked if you insist on forcing equivalency between them.

Personally, I agree that the XIV should not be perked, but saying that the K-4 is in the same category for "ease of use" is nuts.  Longitudinal stability is poor in both aircraft, which only means aiming with the K-4 will always be more difficult than in the XIV.  20mm duration is about 2x that of the 30mm for the K-4, which only compounds the disparity.  If these differences weren't enough, the forward visibility in the K-4 is crap, whereas the forward visibility in the XIV is above average.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: BnZs on May 30, 2009, 01:19:49 PM
I think a good compromise would be to lower the perk price of the SpitXIV, perhaps to half as much as the C-Hog costs.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Motherland on May 30, 2009, 01:39:26 PM
Personally, I agree that the XIV should not be perked, but saying that the K-4 is in the same category for "ease of use" is nuts.  Longitudinal stability is poor in both aircraft, which only means aiming with the K-4 will always be more difficult than in the XIV.  20mm duration is about 2x that of the 30mm for the K-4, which only compounds the disparity.  If these differences weren't enough, the forward visibility in the K-4 is crap, whereas the forward visibility in the XIV is above average.
Although the stability as a gun platform for both aircraft may be less than optimal, but it is MUCH worse in the Spitfire MkXIV, not enough to cut out the advantage of the Hispano IMO, but enough to cut a significant chunk out of that factor. Though you have to fly the gun with the MK 108, it's fairly easy to do in the 109, not so much in the Mk XIV.
The advantages and disadvantages between the Bf 109K-4 and the Spitfire MkXIV IMO make it one of the closer fights in the game, leaning only very slightly to the Spitfire, much like the Bf 109E-4 and the Spitfire MkI.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Kazaa on May 30, 2009, 02:13:11 PM
From my exp, the 109K4 will eat up the XIV.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Ruah on May 31, 2009, 01:40:10 AM
I think the 14 is a lot harder to fly then the 16 and I agree that even if the 14 were unperked, most people will still perfer the 16 unless they were vulching.  And when you throw the K4 in, then its all messed up.

This thread is dangerously close to calling a perk to the K4 (a lot of people will cry) or to unperk the 14.  I would love to see some expert 14 vs. k4 fights to see how it goes. . .because I also think the K4 will kick the 14s ass.  That plane is one of the best in the game (unperked) once you master the 30mm cannon (which I have not).
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: straffo on May 31, 2009, 02:44:15 AM
Shouldn't a plane that allows you to become One With The Universe be the _ultimate_ perk ride?  :devil

I'm perhaps having translation problem but being "one with the universe" make me think of a coffin!
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: beau32 on May 31, 2009, 08:44:37 AM
Early Tempest's Mk. V (Serie I) and the Tempest Mk. II prototypes had the 20 mm Mk. II Hispano cannons (identical to those fitted in Typhoon). The barrels extended 8 inches beyond the wing leading edge and they were mounted with short barrell fairings.
Tempest Mk. V Serie II's, production Mk. IIs and Mk. VIs were fitted with the new short-barrelled Hispano Mk. V cannons which were completely enclosed. (They were 10 in. shorter and 25 lbs lighter than Mk. II.)
Mk. V and VI Tempest had 200 rounds per gun, but Mk. II had 162 inboard and 152 outboard.


So can we get the correct ammo for the Tempest.




Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Widewing on May 31, 2009, 10:10:08 AM
I think the 14 is a lot harder to fly then the 16 and I agree that even if the 14 were unperked, most people will still perfer the 16 unless they were vulching.  And when you throw the K4 in, then its all messed up.

This thread is dangerously close to calling a perk to the K4 (a lot of people will cry) or to unperk the 14.  I would love to see some expert 14 vs. k4 fights to see how it goes. . .because I also think the K4 will kick the 14s ass.  That plane is one of the best in the game (unperked) once you master the 30mm cannon (which I have not).

Many factors determine which is the better of the two. Altitude, speed, weight and pilot skill level. At high speeds (above 350 mph) the Spit XIV is quite formidable. Between 13k and 24k, the 109K-4 has better performance, but above 25K, the Spitfire XIV is better. The Spit turns smaller circles, but its torque makes it a difficult aircraft to maneuver at low speeds, high AoA. In contrast, the 109K-4 isn't nearly as much of a handful with flaps out. The 109s refuse to roll right at low speed with flaps out, but that is not an issue if you are aware of it. Not dissimilar is the Spit XIV, which will not roll left under those same circumstances. Whereas the Spit can get into a flat or tail down spin relatively easy, the 109K-4 does not display this flaw. That's where the K-4 gains the edge. Stability at the limit is what dooms the Spit when stall fighting the K-4. I have no idea why some aircraft suffer badly from torque, yet others with as much power, don't. Using that same logic, I cannot understand why the Tempest accelerates as fast as it does.

Go back 4 years, before the 109K-4 was introduced, and you find the 109G-10 in the game. Its speed, climb and acceleration performance was identical to the current K-4. Yet, it was not as popular as the K-4 is today. This is due the change in the flight modeling that occurred with introduction of the revised graphics of all 109s. This debuted the 109's new Uber flaps and much better stability at high AoA. Players who weren't here back then will  not recall my flight testing of the 109s, establishing how well they performed flaps out. Prior to that update, the 109G-10 handled worse than the Spit XIV.

If the K-4 can beat the Spit XIV in stall fight; the 109G-14 will eat it alive. How so? Easy, the G-14 accelerates as quickly as the K-4 below 250 mph, and climbs as well or better below 10k. It easily out-turns the K-4 as well. Why don't you see as many G-14s as K-4s? Simple... The K-4 is the better fighter for escaping a bad situation. Yet, if it meets a Co-E, Co-Alt La-7, it is in deep trouble. Likewise for the Ki-84, Spit XVI and Spit VIII (assuming equal pilots).


My regards,

Widewing
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Angus on May 31, 2009, 10:37:42 AM
Can the K-4 beat the XIV in a screaming stallturn? To the right especially???? I'll have to test this one.
Title: Re: Tempest
Post by: Belial on June 07, 2009, 12:54:18 PM
The Tempest has the innate ability to pull that extra bit to get the shot when diving on you.