Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MachFly on May 27, 2009, 12:55:05 AM
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I don't want to get fyvsix's thread locked so lets just continue the conversation here...
Here is the link to the thread where it all started (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,265453.0.html) end of page 1 and page 2.
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He can disengage at the first sign of trouble and you're not going to do squat diddly about it.
He is not going to teliport out of there, it will take him time to accelerate
Even should you drop in from 7K above the Tempest, his acceleration and dive profile exceeds yours. Therefore, he, not you, controls the engagement length
Should you take the chance and dive with the Tempy, he's bringing you down into his best performance area, and your worst.
Be smart, let him run, stay up high
Therefore, he, not you, controls the engagement length.
yes, i have no doubt about it, that is if he knows what he is doing...
Yes you have a better climber, at a paltry 500 feet per minute at any altitude that matters (10-15K) You put your nose up, you're giving those Hispanos a shot,
That would be very stupid to just start climbing on equal energy with a temp on your 6, just make a few turns and he loses you.
You don't have superior escape potential, and you do not control the length of the engagement.
If someone is in a plane that has superior escape potential, he controls how long the engagement lasts, and mostly on what terms it will be fought.
that's why it's perked, and that's the advantage of a fast fighter
It's Kill to Death ratio is unparalleled, because a pilot can control the engagement on his terms, whether BnZ or TnB.
no, that's because you noobs don't know how to fly the spit14, and any noob can fly a temp as long as he got the perks.
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He is not going to teliport out of there, it will take him time to accelerate
Be smart, let him run, stay up high
yes, i have no doubt about it, that is if he knows what he is doing...
That would be very stupid to just start climbing on equal energy with a temp on your 6, just make a few turns and he loses you.
that's why it's perked, and that's the advantage of a fast fighter
no, that's because you noobs don't know how to fly the spit14, and any noob can fly a temp as long as he got the perks.
Noob... lol.
I will end your stupid debate here and now. If it wasn't better, it wouldn't have been the last.
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=last+piston+engine+fighter+in+RAF+service (http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=last+piston+engine+fighter+in+RAF+service)
Enjoy;)
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http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=last+piston+engine+fighter+in+RAF+service (http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=last+piston+engine+fighter+in+RAF+service)
Enjoy;)
Tempest retired in 1953, Spitfire retired in 1957
There were also less than 2000 of them, compared to the 20,000+ spitfires
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Tempest retired in 1953, Spitfire retired in 1957
There were also less than 2000 of them, compared to the 20,000+ spitfires
All 262/190/109/152 were retired in 1945 I guess it make them quite unsuitable for combat use ?
:huh
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Ehmm:
"The last piston engine fighter in RAF service was a Tempest VI, which was in use as a target tug when it was retired in 1953. "
The Sea Fury soldiered on as an operational aircraft longer than that. Was being phased out in 1955.
I have seen records of Spitfires being phased out as late as 1953 (Mk 22) but also seeing that the Spit 24 left RAF in squadron strength in 1951 being replaced by the Hornet, which remained in service into mid-1956. (last operational sortie in may 1955) Sea Hornets were in service until 1954.
The Seafires were still in front-line service in 1951 (were withdrawn then) but I am not sure when they were completely withdrawn from service.
Spitfires of some sort were still in military operation in 1952 though, in the Malayan emergency, but one source I have states that the last time it fired it's guns in anger for the RAF was in 1950.
I am not even looking into other airforces ;)
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the tempest is superior to the spit14 except if the tempest is foolish enough to turn the combat in a climb contest, or in a speed contest above 25K. As said the tempest can disengage at will with its superior dive capability. In a turn fight the spit14 is not even sure to win.
IIRC the spit21 is a brand new plane.
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no, that's because you noobs don't know how to fly the spit14, and any noob can fly a temp as long as he got the perks.
Any noob can fly a 14 as long as he has the perks as well. Did you ever think that maybe you think the 14 is vastly better because you don't know how the fly the Tempest? Hmm...
Be careful with your usage of the word "noob," 1.75 years in-game is still a noob to a lot of people who have been around for 5 times that. Also, MORAY has almost half a year on ya.
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All 262/190/109/152 were retired in 1945 I guess it make them quite unsuitable for combat use ?
:huh
actually the Israeli airforce flew BF109s. . .and they flew them untill the various jets became available. . .so they may have continued using them well past the Temp and Spitfires too.
on that note
With equal pilots the Tempest will win or draw (escape) every fight . . .
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yep, true I forgot the finns and other other users of the 109.
Just to be nitpicking I don't really consider the S199 or buchon as true 109 :)
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actually the Israeli airforce flew BF109s. . .and they flew them untill the various jets became available. . .so they may have continued using them well past the Temp and Spitfires too.
on that note
With equal pilots the Tempest will win or draw (escape) every fight . . .
Actually, IAF 101 squadron had a mix of Avia S199 (Czech made 109 with a weaker engine and wing guns, total crap), Spitfires (mostly IX and bastardized versions made of scraped spits) and P51D. They were fighting Spit14s, tempests and C.205. Almost like flying in the main arena...
The P51D outlasted the other prop fighters as a combat aircraft and the last ones were used in the 1956 Suez war. However, the last airworthy plane was actually a spit IX that a couple of the airforce commanders liked so much, they couldn't bring themselves to scrap it. I remember seen it fly till the late 80s when it belonged to the IAF museum. I am not sure if it still in flying condition.
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For some reason, the main bulk of those survivors today are Spits and P51's. Is there still an airworthy Temp or Tiffie?
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IAF Spits vs. RAF Tempests:
http://www.spyflight.co.uk/iafvraf.htm
The IAF sent the RAF squadron the following message after the event cleared up:
"Sorry about yesterday, but you were on the wrong side of the fence. Come over here and have a drink sometime. You will see many familiar faces."
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Any noob can fly a 14 as long as he has the perks as well. Did you ever think that maybe you think the 14 is vastly better because you don't know how the fly the Tempest? Hmm...
Be careful with your usage of the word "noob," 1.75 years in-game is still a noob to a lot of people who have been around for 5 times that. Also, MORAY has almost half a year on ya.
Half a year? I've been in these games since Air Warrior. Glad you can look things up on the stats page... sorry you don't realize sometimes people change names with squad affiliations.
Participation in this BBS is also not indicative of flight time.
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Half a year? I've been in these games since Air Warrior. Glad you can look things up on the stats page... sorry you don't realize sometimes people change names with squad affiliations.
Participation in this BBS is also not indicative of flight time.
Your "Dweeb 14" comment pretty much invalidated anything you had to say and just painted yourself as an idiot.
That said, the Tempest is far better than the Spitfire Mk XIV.
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BRIEF TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH TEMPEST V
Range and Endurance
24. Rough comparisons have been made at the maximum continuous cruising conditions of both aircraft. (3150 revs. +4 1/2 lb. boost Tempest, 2400 revs. +7 lb. boost Spitfire XIV).
24A. The best heights of each aircraft are very different, producing the following results:-
The Tempest is faster and goes further up to 10,000 ft. From 10,000 - 20,000 ft. both aircraft cruise at about 300 I.A.S. Above 20,000 ft. the Tempest cannot maintain its high crusing speed and no comparisons can be made with the Spitfire XIV which increases its ground speed and range up to 29,000 ft.
These comparisons remain the same with the full fuel loads at present available (2 x 45 gall. long range tank Tempest, 1 x 90 gall. longe range tank Spitfire).
Maximum Speed
25. From 0 - 10,000 feet the Tempest V is 20 mph. faster than the Spitfire XIV. There is then little to choose until 22,000 feet, when the Spitfire XIV becomes 30-40 mph. faster, the Tempest's operational ceiling being about 30,000 feet as opposed to the Spitfire XIV's 40,000 feet.
Maximum Climb
26. The Tempest is not in the same class as the Spitfire XIV. The Tempest V however, has a considerably better zoom climb, holding a higher speed thoughout the manoeuvre. If the climb is prolonged until climbing speed is reached then, of course, the Spitfire XIV will begin to catch up and pull ahead.
Dive
27. The Tempest V gains on the Spitfire XIV.
Turning Circle
28. The Spitfire XIV easily out-turns the Tempest.
Rate of Roll
29. The Spitfire XIV rolls faster at speeds below 300 mph., but definitely more slowly at speeds greater than 350 mph.
Conclusions
30. The tactical attributes of the two aircraft being completely different, they require a separate handling techique in combat. For this reason Typhoon squadrons should convert to Tempests, and Spitfire squadrons to Spitfire XIVs, and definitely never vice-versa, or each aircraft's particular advantages would never be appreciated. Regarding performance, if correctly handled, the Tempest is the better below about 20,000 feet and the Spitfire XIV the better above that height.
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14afdu.html
So much BS in this thread.
The Tempest was quickly replaced in British service. The Hawker Fury/Sea Fury (One of, if not THE finest piston fighter ever produced) was a lightened Tempest II. The last Tempests in service were there because they were being used as target tugs, not front line aircraft.
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Just what I said. Just more subtly ;)
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I've never really flown either one, but I'm much more wary when there's a Tempest in the area. As has been stated above, the ability of the Tempest to control when the fight starts and when it ends, as well as those four hispanos, makes it more dangerous. I've always viewed Spit XIV's as relatively easy kills.
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When the enemy is in range, so are you.
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Half a year? I've been in these games since Air Warrior. Glad you can look things up on the stats page... sorry you don't realize sometimes people change names with squad affiliations.
Participation in this BBS is also not indicative of flight time.
Certain things never change either.
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All 262/190/109/152 were retired in 1945 I guess it make them quite unsuitable for combat use ?
:huh
Avia S-199 (Czech-built version of the Me-109) flew under Israeli markings in the 1948 war against the Egyptians. The Egyptians flew Spits
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Any noob can fly a 14 as long as he has the perks as well. Did you ever think that maybe you think the 14 is vastly better because you don't know how the fly the Tempest? Hmm...
So why don't you show me that you can dogfight in a tempest........better yet, do it against a spit14
tempest is not a dogfight and if your saying it is then you really don't know how to fly one
Be careful with your usage of the word "noob," 1.75 years in-game is still a noob to a lot of people who have been around for 5 times that. Also, MORAY has almost half a year on ya.
Speak for your self, as far as I see you been flying since 87 and your kill to death ratio is only 1.94, that's embarrassing. You must be a super noob since you been flying from april 2007 and your K/D is not even 2 :rofl
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Speak for your self, as far as I see you been flying since 87 and your kill to death ratio is only 1.94, that's embarrassing. You must be a super noob since you been flying from april 2007 and your K/D is not even 2 :rofl
It is now embarrassing to have a higher K/D than 90% of all AH players?
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It is now embarrassing to have a higher K/D than 90% of all AH players?
1.94 is not higher than 90% and even if it is I would expect someone who comes here and tell me that I don't know how to fly to have a high K/D or at least higher than me....
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So why don't you show me that you can dogfight in a tempest........better yet, do it against a spit14
tempest is not a dogfight and if your saying it is then you really don't know how to fly one
I'll take that challenge.... Then, I'll step down to a P-40E.... Wagers anyone?
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I'll take that challenge.... Then, I'll step down to a P-40E.... Wagers anyone?
To be honest with you i'm pretty sure that you (by you i mean widewing) can do it, but you'll you a lot better dogfighting in most other planes
however it would still be interesting to test that.
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1.94 is not higher than 90% and even if it is I would expect someone who comes here and tell me that I don't know how to fly to have a high K/D or at least higher than me....
1.94 is not higher than 90% and even if it is I would expect someone who comes here and tell me that I don't know how to fly to have a high K/D or at least higher than me....
A)
1.94 is higher than 90%. I didn't make this number up:
B)
As you seem to view K/D as giving give a player authority on this topic, I now declare, by the power of having a K/D twice as high as yours:
Tempest is a better fighter in a AH than the Spit 14.
You may now bow and be silent.
Thread is over.
:D
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To be honest with you i'm pretty sure that you (by you i mean widewing) can do it, but you'll you a lot better dogfighting in most other planes
however it would still be interesting to test that.
I'm in the TA tomorrow evening working with Buddy... Stop in.
My regards,
Widewing
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As you seem to view K/D as giving give a player authority on this topic, I now declare, by the power of having a K/D twice as high as yours:
You may now bow and be silent.
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/789/2u58hhu.gif)
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5673/lolololy.png), just kidding
As you seem to view K/D as giving give a player authority on this topic,
no, this was the only reason why i mentioned the K/D:
Any noob can fly a 14 as long as he has the perks as well. Did you ever think that maybe you think the 14 is vastly better because you don't know how the fly the Tempest? Hmm...
Be careful with your usage of the word "noob," 1.75 years in-game is still a noob to a lot of people who have been around for 5 times that. Also, MORAY has almost half a year on ya.
having a K/D twice as high as yours:
13.37, that is good
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13.37, that is good
No. It only seems so. I'm just flying mainly Tempests in fighter mode this tour, and that's inflating my K/D. Go figure ;)
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No. It only seems so. I'm just flying mainly Tempests in fighter mode this tour, and that's inflating my K/D. Go figure ;)
your last tour's K/D was 8.76, still high
And even if you just fly Tempests it's still good, not everyone can get that K/D flying Me 163
:aok
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I'm in the TA tomorrow evening working with Buddy... Stop in.
My regards,
Widewing
rgr, I don't want to interrupt your training though, PM me when your going to be done or something
:salute
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rgr, I don't want to interrupt your training though, PM me when your going to be done or something
:salute
I don't think Buddy would mind, he could use another soul for merge/dueling practice. He's currently learning the F6F-5, while I'm flying most of the lesser types such as the P-39D, P-40E, Ki-61, C.202 and the Boston. Don't underestimate the Boston, it's a match for more than a few fighters.
My regards,
Widewing
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Your "Dweeb 14" comment pretty much invalidated anything you had to say and just painted yourself as an idiot.
That said, the Tempest is far better than the Spitfire Mk XIV.
What, Karnak, just couldn't say something constructive, and simply moved to the personal insult? My, aren't we the usual grown up.? And in an aircraft discussion thread... You're a real case. And then you agree with me.....LOL.
I may look at Spitfires in any way I see fit, and I don't need to ask for your approval sir. I don't fly them, they are way too easy. Turn, yank, pull. Rinse repeat until having gained advantage. I've prolly upped 5 in the last 5 tours.
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tempest > spitfire
:aok
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I may look at Spitfires in any way I see fit, and I don't need to ask for your approval sir. I don't fly them, they are way too easy. Turn, yank, pull. Rinse repeat until having gained advantage. I've prolly upped 5 in the last 5 tours.
Spitfire vs spitfire. I bet you lose that fight. How can this be? Does the other guy turn, yank, pull better than you?
Try dueling them vs someone who knows a thing or two. There is just as much to learn with the spitfires as any plane, if not more considering the excelent agility of the spitfire can make your jaw drop. A novice in a spitfire is sure to end up on thier back in a flat stall very quickly when pushed.
If you fight me and beat me 5 out of 5 in spitfires i will accept that you have a clue when you say the above sentances. No offence intended sir, just offering an alternate view. S!
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I don't think Buddy would mind, he could use another soul for merge/dueling practice. He's currently learning the F6F-5, while I'm flying most of the lesser types such as the P-39D, P-40E, Ki-61, C.202 and the Boston. Don't underestimate the Boston, it's a match for more than a few fighters.
My regards,
Widewing
got it
I'll will probably be online tomorrow (5/28) at 6-8PM EST
let me know if that's not good for you
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got it
I'll will probably be online tomorrow (5/28) at 6-8PM EST
let me know if that's not good for you
We usually start at 8 PM EDT, but I'll try to get there at 7:30....
My regards,
Widewing
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We usually start at 8 PM EDT, but I'll try to get there at 7:30....
My regards,
Widewing
don't worry about it, I'll adjust my schedule
I'll come on at about 8 in that case
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Spitfire vs spitfire. I bet you lose that fight. How can this be? Does the other guy turn, yank, pull better than you?
Try dueling them vs someone who knows a thing or two. There is just as much to learn with the spitfires as any plane, if not more considering the excelent agility of the spitfire can make your jaw drop. A novice in a spitfire is sure to end up on thier back in a flat stall very quickly when pushed.
If you fight me and beat me 5 out of 5 in spitfires i will accept that you have a clue when you say the above sentances. No offence intended sir, just offering an alternate view. S!
Of course there's just as much to know.... provided you meet a good stick that makes you use that knowledge. 9 out of 10 times in the MA, in a spit, pull/yank rinse repeat works. The Spit is entirely forgiving in every respect, and is difficult to put yourself in a bad spot with, provided you enter the engagement on the merge with somewhat equal E states.
I reserve my right to my opinion, based on around 15 years of "research" on this type of game. The plane won the air war for Britain, of course it is great. I would definitely say that it was the premiere early and mid war ride.
I simply don't see upping one and getting kills as any sort of challenge.
No offense taken, btw.
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moray are you talking about 16 or all spitfires?
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moray are you talking about 16 or all spitfires?
Spit 8,9 16 and 14.
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Especially the 14 is far from being "entirely forgiving in any aspect"
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A)
1.94 is higher than 90%. I didn't make this number up:
B)
As you seem to view K/D as giving give a player authority on this topic, I now declare, by the power of having a K/D twice as high as yours:
Tempest is a better fighter in a AH than the Spit 14.
You may now bow and be silent.
Thread is over.
:D
Proud of my 1.24 K/D!! :rock :rock Although, I'm sure I shouldn't be. :lol
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Proud of my 1.24 K/D!! :rock :rock Although, I'm sure I shouldn't be. :lol
Each statistic is easily manipulated in one way, shape or form. ( Example: Many, not all, people with huge K/D and K/S simply up far away from fights and pick off stragglers, never upping from a base under attack, and always attacking from above with greater E and a better ride, hence never actually in any real danger of getting shot down.)
As long as you are happy with it, and having fun, who cares about the rest.
It is much too easy to put artificial shifts into the rankings for them to have any absolute meaning at all. After all, statistics mean only what the statistician wants them to mean.
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Especially the 14 is far from being "entirely forgiving in any aspect"
Each plane has its' strengths and weaknesses Lusche. I simply feel the later Spits do most everything well, and will do something better than any other aircraft they come up against. It obviously takes the pilot to figure it out, but the plane can be used to kill anything. I don't see a challenge in flying them and getting kills.
I'm sorry if you see an issue with my sweeping generalization of the late model Supermarine Spitfires. It is simply my opinion, and I feel they are easy to get kills in, hence I don't fly them.
If you, on the other hand, think it is difficult to get kills in late war spits....
(something I don't believe you feel, btw.)
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Proud of my 1.24 K/D!! :rock :rock Although, I'm sure I shouldn't be. :lol
You should always be proud of what you have, because you earned it.
Most people in aces high don't even have the K/D that you have
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If you fight me and beat me 5 out of 5 in spitfires i will accept that you have a clue when you say the above sentances. No offence intended sir, just offering an alternate view. S!
That's right BatfinkV, puff that chest out nice and big now... :D
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i'm not afraid to back up what i say. I am gracious when proven wrong, or I try to be.
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9 out of 10 times in the MA, in a spit, pull/yank rinse repeat works. The Spit is entirely forgiving in every respect, and is difficult to put yourself in a bad spot with, provided you enter the engagement on the merge with somewhat equal E states.
I simply don't see upping one and getting kills as any sort of challenge.
If you fight me and beat me 5 out of 5 in spitfires i will accept that you have a clue when you say the above sentances. No offence intended sir, just offering an alternate view. S!
Chest beating non sequitur.
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What you see is what you get. You can't handle someone as raw and undiluted as me dont read what I type. I have never asked for your validation. Put your head back in the sand. :aok
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Another grandiloquent non sequitur. Moray's argument is that spits are pretty much yank&bank kites. Winning or losing duels with you is immaterial to that argument.
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Well, you can truly throw the Spit around, however getting OUT of a fight is another story. It is a challenge to fly the Spit against more than one opponent while having less E or alt, which happens to be my favourite :devil
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Woah, woah, bloody woah! Where did all those big words come from! brings up wiki
BatfinkV can be a humble guy, I was just being sarcastic.
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oh dont sweat it Kaz, moot has a personal chip on his shoulder for me. The latin is a clear sign of his venom. He fails to see where the person i was talking to answered me with respect and his own logic.
There was no futher need for discourse, I threw in my post and Moray threw his in back. Mission complete. :aok
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The only chip and venom are yours gnatfink. Your reply to Moray that he should duel you means nothing to the argument that the spit is like Moray describes. In fact.. The only use of dueling you would be if your "validation" was what mattered.
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What next, going to start pulling each others hair lol.
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Are you going to read between the lines of plain simple fact too Kazaa? I don't know what he's told you exactly, but Batfink's been PMing me some pretty harebrained stuff, insisting that I was somehow angry at him, a lot like him, that I needed him, that he shunned my world, and on and on. So.. My pov is that he's nuts and needs help. Is that what you want to hear? Good, you heard it.. Now.. Winning or losing against Batfink says nothing of whether spits are or aren't just like Moray describes.
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Are you going to read between the lines of plain simple fact too Kazaa? I don't know what he's told you exactly, but Batfink's been PMing me some pretty harebrained stuff, insisting that I was somehow angry at him, a lot like him, that I needed him, that he shunned my world, and on and on. So.. My pov is that he's nuts and needs help. Is that what you want to hear? Good, you heard it.. Now.. Winning or losing against Batfink says nothing of whether spits are or aren't just like Moray describes.
I was just trying to down play the situation with some humour. I must go to the squadron forum now, there's a huge arguement over who looks better in Speedos and my names not on the list!
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So you concede that I was right. Thanks.
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O'rly?
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Winning or losing a duel against Batfink proves nothing for whether spits are or aren't just like Moray describes. It's got nothing to do with it.
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Each plane has its' strengths and weaknesses Lusche. I simply feel the later Spits do most everything well, and will do something better than any other aircraft they come up against. It obviously takes the pilot to figure it out, but the plane can be used to kill anything. I don't see a challenge in flying them and getting kills.
I'm sorry if you see an issue with my sweeping generalization of the late model Supermarine Spitfires. It is simply my opinion, and I feel they are easy to get kills in, hence I don't fly them.
If you, on the other hand, think it is difficult to get kills in late war spits....
(something I don't believe you feel, btw.)
Actually, a SpitXVI will literally do everything better than most of what it can expect to fight, except top speed, where it is merely good. Although "merely good" in this case includes being as fast or faster than many planes which it greatly out-turns, out-climbs/accelerates, and out-rolls, while packing an extremely lethal gun package
But your other Spits, your IX, V, Seafire, they are much more reasonable in their speed/maneuverability ratio relative the rest of the set.
As far as "forgiving handling" goes, many fighters in AHII are about as easy to put through BFMs as Spitfires.
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back to topic please. . .srsly, everytime people start to talk about spitfires the IQ just drops and people start to scream nurf. The tempest is a much better plane on many many levels, and the fight is controled by the tempest from start to finish (as was said in the other post about tempests and this is true). If a tempest loses to a spitty, its because the tempest pilot skill is inferior to the spitfire - but with equal or near equal pilot skills, barring some snapshot luck, the tempest should win.
am I wrong here?
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back to topic please. . .srsly, everytime people start to talk about spitfires the IQ just drops and people start to scream nurf. The tempest is a much better plane on many many levels, and the fight is controled by the tempest from start to finish (as was said in the other post about tempests and this is true). If a tempest loses to a spitty, its because the tempest pilot skill is inferior to the spitfire - but with equal or near equal pilot skills, barring some snapshot luck, the tempest should win.
am I wrong here?
This is the exact point I had. The Tempest controls the length and type of the engagement, the Spit 14 is simply along for the ride. The Spit pilot must be able to adjust to anything the Tempest throws at it.....and cannot escape or force the Tempest pilot's hand. The only way he wins is if the Tempest makes a mistake, and he will only get a snapshot at that, due to the Tempest's escape hatch of dive.
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You can't really blame someone if they are *highly* surprised by the Tempest turning nearly as well as the SpitXIV...I think alot of WWII pilots would have found it surprising also.
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/wade-turning.jpg)
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Moot. Like i said before; that is very sad. Well done for being 'right', like always. Funny though, that my friends and squadmates would probably give a reasonably decent account of who I am and what I stand for. How would some of your squaddies describe you? How have they already described you? Head so far up your backside you cant see it?
If you read more carefully you would see that I was talking personaly. If anyone thinks the spitfires are no challenge, come fight me, show me what you got. Unless you win 5/5 there is still more to learn about spitfires.
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. If anyone thinks the spitfires are no challenge,
Well, that statement was highly dependent on what kind of Spitfire vs. what now wasn't it? So there are too many qualifiers for it to be meaningful. That is why it is called *relative* performance.
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Well, in that case excuse me for totaly misreading what looked like quite an obvious blanket statement coming from somebody who was willing and able to give and receive crticism. I didnt read the rest of the thread so maybe i took this out of context.
What, Karnak, just couldn't say something constructive, and simply moved to the personal insult? My, aren't we the usual grown up.? And in an aircraft discussion thread... You're a real case. And then you agree with me.....LOL.
I may look at Spitfires in any way I see fit, and I don't need to ask for your approval sir. I don't fly them, they are way too easy. Turn, yank, pull. Rinse repeat until having gained advantage. I've prolly upped 5 in the last 5 tours.
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You can't really blame someone if they are *highly* surprised by the Tempest turning nearly as well as the SpitXIV...I think alot of WWII pilots would have found it surprising also.
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/wade-turning.jpg)
I call BS on that chart... our XIV can't turn with our IX or XVI. :rolleyes:
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I call BS on that chart... our XIV can't turn with our IX or XVI. :rolleyes:
That's not a chart about ingame performance ;)
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As everyone surely would no the Tempest is an update on the Typhoon.
The Tempests best speed is around 18,300 feet if my source was correct. Its' max speed at max alt was slower then the P47s.
This means as the Tempest at 18K climbing its' performance would be deteriorating.
The Tempest was used for flying Bombs and ground attack just as the Typhoon was.
The SpitXIV performance is increasing at 18K and continues to increase thereafter until it reaches its'
max performance altitude.
I'll take the SpitXIV.
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That's not a chart about ingame performance ;)
I know, I was being sarcastic... :aok If only AH2 had the Mk.21 and Meteor III... :rolleyes:
On a serious note, that diagram leaves a lot to the imagination as there's no keys or annotations! All it's telling me is that AH2's XIV is seriously gimp in the turning department.
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I'll take my spit over temp everytime. :aok
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That's not a chart about ingame performance ;)
It also isn't a chart to any scale. It is just showing best to worst turners. Spits did not out turn the others by that much.
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It also isn't a chart to any scale. It is just showing best to worst turners. Spits did not out turn the others by that much.
Karnak...I vaguely remember the pilot report, which of course you have also read. But I'll paraphrase anyway..words to the effect that the P-51 turns "slightly better" than the Tempest, and the SpitXIV turns decidedly better than the P-51. Thus it DOES sound like the SpitXIV should out-turn the Tempest "by that much"
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That also has a 109G and a 190A with the same turning circle...
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Karnak...I vaguely remember the pilot report, which of course you have also read. But I'll paraphrase anyway..words to the effect that the P-51 turns "slightly better" than the Tempest, and the SpitXIV turns decidedly better than the P-51. Thus it DOES sound like the SpitXIV should out-turn the Tempest "by that much"
Yes, it was much better at turning. I was commenting on the illustration in the chart. That illustration is not to any sort of scale.
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Yeah, Batfink it's all about sadness and who you are and what you stand for.... and your "validation". Being right is being fascist, ok, you've said that a dozen times already.
It means nothing as to whether the spitfire is as Moray describes, if he wins or loses a duel against you. It doesn't matter if an "ace" beats a more regular player, as far as the Spitfire being arguably the least challenging and most forgiving model in the plane set for the large majority of the players. The rest of your post is off-topic as usual. Moot. Like i said before; that is very sad. Well done for being 'right', like always. Funny though, that my friends and squadmates would probably give a reasonably decent account of who I am and what I stand for. How would some of your squaddies describe you? How have they already described you? Head so far up your backside you cant see it?
If you read more carefully you would see that I was talking personaly. If anyone thinks the spitfires are no challenge, come fight me, show me what you got. Unless you win 5/5 there is still more to learn about spitfires.
Non sequitur.
As far as Tempest vs Spit14 goes: Before the Tempest runs out of steam at altitude, it should win most matches against a Spit14. The Tempest might not be able to press to a kill, but it mostly has the spit under its thumb. The spit's torque and tempest's higher speed and firepower means there's no room for error on the side of the one that'd be defending most of the time.
Fighting a turn&burn knife fight.. Is loading the comparison. Like saying the Fw190s aren't really superior to the A6Ms because they don't try and turn with it.
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It's not thinking you are 'right' that I disagree with, it's automaticaly thinking everyone else is wrong. That may confuse you, granted. Being a fascist (a joke btw, remember what that is?) is forcing others to see your point of view or damn them if not. I still disagree with everything you replied to me about but lack the urge to argue with you. The original conversation directed at Moray was long finished before you started this, good day to you.
*tips hat
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That also has a 109G and a 190A with the same turning circle...
I remember reading this too awhile back, something about "the pilot will be embarassed by the slats". Apparently the tester thought slat deployment meant stall was imminent. Relaxing pressure anytime the slats deploy would of course degrade the turning circle of the 109. Didn't an experten even discuss how green Luftwaffe pilots didn't get the most out of turning the 109s because they tended to think the slats deployment meant stall was imminent?
Huh...oddly enough, some research on the DeHavilland Tigermoth is in order.
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Fudge
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Machfly and I met in the TA and squared off with the Tempest and the Spitfire XIV. I hadn't flown a Tempest in a very long time, and never dueled in it before. It took a little while to learn its flaps out quirks.
These were standard duels, that quickly ended up as stall fights.
The fights were close, but the Tempest prevailed, not in the least due to the vicious torque induced handling of the Spit when slow. After several fights, we both took the Tempest. I was now comfortable with it, but Machfly was not. I then flew the Spit, which I wasn't comfortable with at low speeds... Torque was severe. Later, we both flew the Spit.
For me, it was readily apparent why the F4U-4 owns the Spit XIV... The Spit is a evil, nasty beastie at low speed, while the F4U-4 flies like an advanced trainer in comparison.
Machfly did a tremendous job horsing that Spit around. I was very impressed with him.
Some links to films of Tempest vs SpitXIV:
http://www.mediafire.com/?t2qnmnbjmxd (http://www.mediafire.com/?t2qnmnbjmxd)
http://www.mediafire.com/?nwxjmex3gmj (http://www.mediafire.com/?nwxjmex3gmj)
http://www.mediafire.com/?iiyyk22h2yk (http://www.mediafire.com/?iiyyk22h2yk)
Excellent job Machfly! :salute
My regards,
Widewing
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Before I say anything I just want to say great job widewing, great flying :salute
Now here is my report on the comparable slow speed performance at about 5K:
Tempest can out turn a spitfire 14 with full flaps and since it has a much more powerful engine when the spitfire's engine overheats the tempest has a very high power advantage. The tempest however has trouble rolling to the left at low speed with full flaps. Spitfire conserves energy better then the tempest, but that can be a disadvantage because temp. can make the spitfire overshoot and then regain it's energy with it's 2000+ hp engine.
However there are 3 good things about the main arena:
1. You don't see tempests every day
2. The tempests that you actually see can't fly anywhere near as good as widewing
3. Not to many people in the main arena have the guts to fly a 50 perk plane at low altitude and low speed
P.S. I did not like flying the tempest (maybe just because I'm not used to it though)
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Spit XIV has a 2000 hp engine....
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...and?
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...and?
It's 7,001 away from over 9,000.
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?
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Is there still an airworthy Temp or Tiffie?
Just one surviving Typhoon on display at Hendon - great shame for such an important aircraft. :(
11 surviving Tempests, two of which is being restored to flying condition. I really want to see them flying :rock
edit: Tempest II awaiting engine rebuild, should be flying pretty soon.
(http://www.hawkertempest.se/res/default/mw763.jpg)
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Now there are RAF fighter pilots rolling in their graves, to match all USAAF doing so because the P-47D out-turns the P-51.
Before I say anything I just want to say great job widewing, great flying :salute
Now here is my report on the comparable slow speed performance at about 5K:
Tempest can out turn a spitfire 14 with full flaps and since it has a much more powerful engine when the spitfire's engine overheats the tempest has a very high power advantage. The tempest however has trouble rolling to the left at low speed with full flaps. Spitfire conserves energy better then the tempest, but that can be a disadvantage because temp. can make the spitfire overshoot and then regain it's energy with it's 2000+ hp engine.
However there are 3 good things about the main arena:
1. You don't see tempests every day
2. The tempests that you actually see can't fly anywhere near as good as widewing
3. Not to many people in the main arena have the guts to fly a 50 perk plane at low altitude and low speed
P.S. I did not like flying the tempest (maybe just because I'm not used to it though)
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Now there are RAF fighter pilots rolling in their graves, to match all USAAF doing so because the P-47D out-turns the P-51.
What?
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thank you for the testing and video's :salute, it was quite nice to see some low and slow fighting in two planes you rarely see do such things. To me it looked like the tempest had a very solid showing against the spit 14 in all three fights (I watched them from the Spits interior because the view is a lot better). It seemed like the tempest could really slow down quickly and get back to speed quickly, it seemed a lot more stable.
It was a fun watch, and I think it confirms what many people have already stated - do you really feel that unperking the spit 14 is a good idea?
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What?
It is thought that the P-47 can not out-turn the P-51 in real life, not the case in-game. I don't know the details of it's validity.
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It is thought that the P-47 can not out-turn the P-51 in real life, not the case in-game. I don't know the details of it's validity.
It depends on the altitude, fuel load, and speed.
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Tempest retired in 1953, Spitfire retired in 1957
There were also less than 2000 of them, compared to the 20,000+ spitfires
The 1957 date is misleading; it pretains to a single XIX used for T&H Flights at RAF Woodvale. The last RAF sortie was by a photorecon XIX on 1 April of 1954 over Malaysia.
The last RAF Tempest sortie was 6 June 1951.
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The 1957 date is misleading; it pretains to a single XIX used for T&H Flights at RAF Woodvale. The last RAF sortie was by a photorecon XIX on 1 April of 1954 over Malaysia.
The last RAF Tempest sortie was 6 June 1951.
I'm not saying that I don't believe you, but just wondering, what are your sources?
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Before seeing the source, I'll put my money on VonKrimm being right there, and if anything the SpitPR could have been used even longer. I had forgotten about them, but they were in service quite long.
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Be careful with your usage of the word "noob," 1.75 years in-game is still a noob to a lot of people who have been around for 5 times that. Also, MORAY has almost half a year on ya.
3 years and i was considered a noob to those that had been around 3, some of them 4 times that. back on topic, I never liked the 14, saw no amazing things about it, except for speed on the other spitfires; the Tempest on the other hand...60 rounds more cannon than in the Typh, good for another 2 or 3 kills for a good shooter, faster than many planes in the game, dives well, has ord, if your Betty you could probably turn it well. just some thoughts of mine.
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"Speed is king"
'nuff said.
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And at what alt :t
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The 1957 date is misleading; it pretains to a single XIX used for T&H Flights at RAF Woodvale. The last RAF sortie was by a photorecon XIX on 1 April of 1954 over Malaysia.
The last RAF Tempest sortie was 6 June 1951.
Actually 3 Spitfire 19s at Woodvale. All three still exist and are flying. 4000 met sorties in 1957
As for Spitfire XIVs and Tempests. The comment of an RCAF Spit XIV pilot with 91 squadron regarding a certain Tempest pilot, in a logbook I have says it all :) This was during Diver hunting time in the summer of 44.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Clot.jpg)
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sources:
http://www.rotherhamweb.co.uk/gallery/bbmf/last.htm
&
http://www.military-aircraft.org.uk/other-military-aircraft/supermarine-pr-spitfire-mk-xix.htm
and I am only refering to RAF owned/piloted a/c. jeez, if we count other countries then I think there were some spitxxiv that flew for the Queen's 1965 visit to Hong Kong.
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sources:
http://www.rotherhamweb.co.uk/gallery/bbmf/last.htm
&
http://www.military-aircraft.org.uk/other-military-aircraft/supermarine-pr-spitfire-mk-xix.htm
and I am only refering to RAF owned/piloted a/c. jeez, if we count other countries then I think there were some spitxxiv that flew for the Queen's 1965 visit to Hong Kong.
If you are responding to me, I was correcting the number of Spits you mentioned at Woodvale which were 3, not 1. Not arguing about the 1954 Malaysia stuff. The three at Woodvale were RAF birds leased to the met flight. PS853, PM631 and PS915 all remained under RAF control and 2 of the 3 are still part of the B of B memorial flight.
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sources:
http://www.rotherhamweb.co.uk/gallery/bbmf/last.htm
&
http://www.military-aircraft.org.uk/other-military-aircraft/supermarine-pr-spitfire-mk-xix.htm
and I am only refering to RAF owned/piloted a/c. jeez, if we count other countries then I think there were some spitxxiv that flew for the Queen's 1965 visit to Hong Kong.
thanks, kinda bust right now to read it though. Should do it tomorrow or the day after.