Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wingnutt on June 14, 2009, 03:54:01 PM
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I cant help but notice, than in AH our CVs are more resistant to ord (bombs and rockets) than they would be in real life, but on the flip side, they can be strafed to the bottom by a gaggle of cannon birds.. which I think would be next to impossible in real life..
my question is.. is damage over time = to instant damage..
example:
you take a 1/4 sheet of steel, lay it across 2 supports, and strike the middle of it with a hammer 100 times, delivering 10 foot pounds of force with ever blow, in total you have delivered 1000 foot pounds of force over time.
now
you take a 1/4 sheet of steel, lay it across 2 supports, and strike the middle of it with a hammer 1 time, delivering 1000 foot pounds of force with 1 blow, in total you have delivered 1000 foot pounds of foce, instantly.
now after the first test, you would probably merely cause some scratching on the steel, as it can easly withstand blows of 10 foot pounds pretty much indefinitely.
however in the 2nd test you would do much more damage (big dent or a hole) as the steel cannot withstand a sudden shock of 1000 foot pounds.
not the actual numbers are arbitrary, just there for the sake of what Im getting at..
but you get the idea.. a fighter or fighters delivering say 10,000 hit points on a carrier/building over the course of several strafing runs, should not be able to do nearly the same damage as a single bomb delivering 10,000 hit points.
I would think the same would even apply to ammunition.. I.E. assume 10 50 cal rounds deliver as much damage total as a single tater (i know they do not, that isn't the point) 1 tater should still deliver more damage due to all the damage arriving at once, instead of over time.
See what Im getting at? I know its rather random and odd, but its just something I was thinking about.
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So you are also saying, say with bombs...
4 1000 lb bombs hit the CV, one every 2 minutes...or, one 4000 lb bomb hits the CV, all at once.
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So you are also saying, say with bombs...
4 1000 lb bombs hit the CV, one every 2 minutes...or, one 4000 lb bomb hits the CV, all at once.
I would thin so yes..
in AH if you dropped 1 500 pound bomb on the bow, and 5 min later another on the stern, you would have done as much damage (points twoards sinking it, not to the armorments) as 1 1000 pound bomb to the center.. but in reality, I think a single 1000 pound egg would be more prone to cause catastrophic damage I.E. a breach in the hull that would ultimately lead to sinking, than a pair of 500s dropped on different areas of the ship at different times..
kinda like boxing.. a good fighter can take jabs through 12 rounds and stay on his feet, but even the best can be leveled by 1 solid right hand.
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However that hammer isn't:
A ) Penetrating the steel.
B ) Exploding AFTER penetration.
That's what the AP munitions used against enemy shipping did. That 500lb bomb is punching a hole through the deck and exploding within the hull. I'd almost see two 500lb blasts on opposite ends of the ship causing MORE damage as a result, because you're having internal explosions tearing through two different parts of the ship, rather than one explosion contained within one area.
Actually, I'd like to see separate HE and AP bombs available in the hangar. HE would be more effective against hangars/etc, while AP would be better against shipping and GVs.
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Wingnutt,
I totally agree that the way damage is applied seems pretty wonky, at least as far as a CV is concerned. I've always thought that it was a little weird that a gaggle of 110s could sink an aircraft carrier.
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Wingnutt,
I totally agree that the way damage is applied seems pretty wonky, at least as far as a CV is concerned. I've always thought that it was a little weird that a gaggle of 110s could sink an aircraft carrier.
No less weird than a gaggle of Dauntlesses sinking FOUR front-line carriers....
:noid
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Simple answer:
It's a game.
You can't equate everything to real life so much all the time. Too much math, I think.
wrongway
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Simple answer:
It's a game.
You can't equate everything to real life so much all the time. Too much math, I think.
wrongway
Oh I know, and Im not even advocating a change.. how fun would it be to spend X hours getting a carrier into position to strike a base only to have a lone suicide P51 rocket in and deliver a 1 hitter quitter.. to hell with that.
it was just something that was rolling around in my head.
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No less weird than a gaggle of Dauntlesses sinking FOUR front-line carriers....
:noid
he was referring to 110s with the heave gun pack and no bombs.
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Simple answer:
It's a game.
You can't equate everything to real life so much all the time. Too much math, I think.
wrongway
Yeah, it's the same reason we don't have HE and AP for tanks, to complicated to model.
Oh wait... :noid
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If you want to see a game that uses force over surface area and supports, look at Red Faction: Guerrilla:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE5ecIpTEb4
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he was referring to 110s with the heave gun pack and no bombs.
True... Although 30mm guns hit pretty hard, I have a hard time thinking that they could have really sent a CV to the bottom...
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AH2's CVs are so ahistorical in every other way (just for one, you can instantly up as many planes as you have pilots without the extremely time-consuming task of bringing them up to the flight deck on elevators, which in WW2 were in the middle of the flight deck, and spotting them for takeoff), it seems a little silly to complain about just one unrealistic aspect. The CVs are ahistorical because the game is more fun that way.
In fact, keeping the above example in mind, you could just think of it as reflecting the fact that our CVs always have armed and fueled aircraft on the flight and hangar decks. Twenty or thirty wrecked and burning planes with flaming avgas pouring through every opening to the lower decks and bombs and torpedoes cooking off left and right would either sink any WW2 carrier or reduce it to a floating pile of burned-out rubble, which in game terms would amount to the same thing.
Also, while a thousand 30mm rounds wouldn't sink a CV, they would tear up the flight deck to the point where flight ops would be impossible without major repairs, which, again, has the same effect in game terms as sinking it.
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I don't think its fair to say that 30mm damage couldn't sink a real CV. I'm sure if enough rounds, whatever number that is, were to hit a spot and possibly open up a hole, what would happen after water, more rounds, sparks, etc. entered that hole is anyone's guess. Would depend on the spot its opened along the hull and the damage control squad aboard. One of the reason American carriers were able to withstand such a beating were because our damage control teams far outclassed their opponents. Even when the Yorktown was lost it still lasted much longer than what should have been the case. After the first strike where 3 bombs hit it square on the top, they had flight resumed in less than 2 hours.
YES it would be highly unlikely that enough planes would get in close enough to create the above mentioned damage, but not impossible. ;)
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CV hulls constantly repair themselves. Guns, parts, radar, etc, do not (not for a long time) but if you drop 90% of the amount needed to kill a CV, and come back 5 minutes later and drop 20% more, the CV will probably still be floating. By the time you got back with the second load, the repairs would have taken it down to 60%, 70%, whatever.
It's bloody fast.
You have to sink a CV in one outing, or plan on doing it all over from scratch. If you don't sink it, for the luvva pete at least light the candle!
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I don't think its fair to say that 30mm damage couldn't sink a real CV. I'm sure if enough rounds, whatever number that is, were to hit a spot and possibly open up a hole, what would happen after water, more rounds, sparks, etc. entered that hole is anyone's guess.
No way. 30mm HE sure is quite powerfull against thin skinned aircraft, but it utterly useless against 60-100mm armour.
Crew, unarmored guns, various stuff at fly deck, mb fly deck itself can be affected, but not a hull.
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No way. 30mm HE sure is quite powerfull against thin skinned aircraft, but it utterly useless against 60-100mm armour.
Crew, unarmored guns, various stuff at fly deck, mb fly deck itself can be affected, but not a hull.
Not directly, but get enough fires going and the ship is either dead or a floating scrap heap. IIRC none of the bombs that killed the Japanese CVs at Midway penetrated past the hangar deck; the ships were turned into blazing hulks from the fires started among the planes, ordnance, and fueling equipment on the flight and hangar decks, and were either sunk by their own magazines exploding or scuttled with friendly torpedoes. U.S.S. Franklin took similar damage in 1945 and, while skilled damage control barely enabled her to stay afloat, she took months to repair and was out of action for the rest of the war.
AFAIK the question of whether strafing a CV with armed and fueled planes on the flight deck could produce similar results was never put to the test, but it doesn't strike me as out of the realm of possibility - especially if you include the possibility of some rounds getting through to the hangar deck, given that none of the US CVs or, with one exception, the Japanese CVs that saw significant action had armored flight decks or hulls armored up to the level of the hangar decks.
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most annoying result of the damage model is fighters strafing gvs.
a fighter lands 70 .50cal rounds on a T-34, which would scratch the paintwork but could never pentrate the armour. a tank then fires a single 75mm AP round into the T-34 which destroys it. the fighter gets the kill because his 70 .50cal rounds do ~82lb damage equiv vs the 78lb damage equiv of the AP round. :furious
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See Rule #11
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IMO there has been something wrong with the CVs ever since the last update. I have a film where showing that the CV is actually in a diffent spot then what i'm seeing. Me and some squadies bombed this thing constantly for a good hour. I made 3 trips myself, before a sunk it with my 3000lbs. After reviewing the film, the cv is just not where i fired my rockets and bombs!
This has happened to me several times before but i never filmed those. Between the dry spawns, super 20k ack and the ability repair itself ..................... :noid
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No way. 30mm HE sure is quite powerfull against thin skinned aircraft, but it utterly useless against 60-100mm armour.
Crew, unarmored guns, various stuff at fly deck, mb fly deck itself can be affected, but not a hull.
Anything can sink a CV in RL (or almost sink it) even a flare (USS Oriskany (CV-34) 26 October 1966.
Or USS Forrestal (CV-59) 29 July 1967 a single rocket.
Would not be funny in a game as someone has pointed out.
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Anything can sink a CV in RL (or almost sink it) even a flare (USS Oriskany (CV-34) 26 October 1966.
Or USS Forrestal (CV-59) 29 July 1967 a single rocket.
Would not be funny in a game as someone has pointed out.
true, thats kind of a moot point though in AH, as the aspect of exploding ord and fuel are not calculated..
through it would be sweet to hit her with a bomb and as your pulling off see secondaries.
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Anything can sink a CV in RL (or almost sink it) even a flare (USS Oriskany (CV-34) 26 October 1966.
Or USS Forrestal (CV-59) 29 July 1967 a single rocket.
Neither Oriskany nor Forrestal sunk from that accidents.
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IIRC none of the bombs that killed the Japanese CVs at Midway penetrated past the hangar deck; the ships were turned into blazing hulks from the fires started among the planes, ordnance, and fueling equipment on the flight and hangar decks, and were either sunk by their own magazines exploding or scuttled with friendly torpedoes.
:aok Exactly my point about the damage control team. Japanese crews were not up to snuff and had little chance to save their flat tops. Plus if you look at a WWII Japanese carrier, its design looks like it just lends itself to being pummeled.
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Plus if you look at a WWII Japanese carrier, its design looks like it just lends itself to being pummeled.
Are you referring to the gigantic red "drop bombs here" meatballs painted on the flight decks? :D