Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: shreck on June 24, 2009, 03:31:34 PM
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How about limiting F3 view to only bombers with at least 2 defensive firing guns? The # of 10-15K il2s are increasing and it is just dumb :aok Without F3 view these planes would not be used unrealistically, as they are now!! :aok
F3 view = "third rate arcade shooter" :D
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I concur. :aok
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I do thinkt he IL2 should be limited to just the in-cockpit view.
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I would agree the Il2 and some other "attack only bombers" (A20G) should not get F3. The pilot may be however be able to set the rear gunners view as a "6 view" to compensate.
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How about limiting F3 view to only bombers with at least 2 defensive firing guns? The # of 10-15K il2s are increasing and it is just dumb :aok Without F3 view these planes would not be used unrealistically, as they are now!! :aok
F3 view = "third rate arcade shooter" :D
As soon as you give me a gunner that has the same skill level as me and can call out the position of fighters. Iv killed many fighters in a dogfight while flying with no F3. It wont do anything since you can set your views so there is really no blind spot except the straight down view.
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As soon as you give me a gunner that has the same skill level as me and can call out the position of fighters. Iv killed many fighters in a dogfight while flying with no F3. It wont do anything since you can set your views so there is really no blind spot except the straight down view.
Then there should be no issue in removing it then :aok I would suspect MOST of those who say they don't use F3 view are telling the little "white lie" :aok
Oh and the tail gunner comment is more like this--> "find me a tail gunner who isn't crapping themselves and knows EXACTLY how to relay enemy position to me so I can use the info the best way possible!! :aok
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No shreck, losing F3 view on A20 or iL2 wouldn't bother me in the least.
Fact remains its a target, if your getting killed by one very often your slipping someplace.
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Then there should be no issue in removing it then :aok I would suspect MOST of those who say they don't use F3 view are telling the little "white lie" :aok
No there wouldn't be an issue, but at the same time there wouldn't be an issue in keeping it. As I said the only difference in using F1 and F3 is the straight down view. It wouldn't effect how I use it one bit, and that is as a fighter/attack aircraft. I use the F3 all the time, but like I said Iv used F1 only during intire fights and it didn't effect the outcome one bit. The other guy took some cannon rounds after overshooting or getting out flown. Most of the time a whine soon followed his death.
The only people that I see wanting F3 disabled are usually the ones getting shot down after thinking ''hey look an easy kill.''
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You can't see the thing out of Il-2's cockpit there for you need the 3rd view. In real life you have a gunner siting there checking your six, because it's next to impossible to do from the cockpit with all that armor surrounding you.
Making the real view automatically switch to the gunner's position would not be realistic and would give you to good of a rear view.
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The only people that I see wanting F3 disabled are usually the ones getting shot down after thinking ''hey look an easy kill.''
Well this is not the case! Although I have overshot my fair share of il2s! The issue for me is F3 view really is a benefit no matter what folks say. It very easily imroves your situational picture and also magnifies ones ability to create overshoot with said picture! :aok I don't believe an aircraft that had very serious vulnerabilities in real life should have the "magic view" pill in Aces High! Let alone "BETTER" views than any fighter :aok
It would be an easy test to determine if F3 really helps or not! F3 view could be disabled for a single tour, after which the kill ratios be compared with previous tours! I suspect you'd find a drastic difference in the totals, this would confirm that F3 view really does make a difference :aok
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You can't see the thing out of Il-2's cockpit there for you need the 3rd view.
Not really. I have my views setup so theres almost no blindspots.
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I use F3 to see where the other guy is but I couldn't hit anything from F3 view. I use it to "see". I imagine that was its intended purpose.
I can't see how they fly in F3 all the time in the DA.
I like the no F3, 6 o'clock = gunner idea, I think.
wrongway
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Making the real view automatically switch to the gunner's position would not be realistic and would give you to good of a rear view.
Thats the most suicidal argument I've ever seen. "Viewing from the gunner's seat is unrealistic therefore we should be able to float outside the plane and view from any angle."
:lol
I wish we could remove all external views, even for bombers. Especially in the DA. But then, I like to play without icons when there are no friendlies around so I figure it's 'personal choice' and live 'n' let live.
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Thats the most suicidal argument I've ever seen. "Viewing from the gunner's seat is unrealistic therefore we should be able to float outside the plane and view from any angle."
why change it? if we are going to have the same non realistic thing?
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For me? I say change it so that the advantage of massive armour protection comes with the disadvantge of limited rear visibility. You want to have a gunner to see behind you? Hope you got some friends who like to gun. Thats just me, because you asked me what i think. It has always been this way and I dont lose any sleep over it.
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F3 view should only be allowed with planes with drones and only when there flying with Drones!IMO
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F3 view should only be allowed with planes with drones and only when there flying with Drones!IMO
I have to disagree on that point. The F3 view is to simulate an entire crew looking out for you. If you are flying alone in a bomber, or a formation of bombers, the only way to do that is with F3. I fly the 25H solo all the time. I use F3 to not only keep an eye out for fighters diving on me as I fly, but to call out to teammates when I see them getting closed on. I do NOT use F3 when firing my guns, or bombing.... I dont see how anyone can do that effectively. I need the gunsights in the turrets the and forward view for bombing.
And if you had to jump into a turret just to check your six, the plane goes on autopilot and levels out everytime... making trying to manuever and have your "crew" tell you where the bandit is impossible.
If the aircraft is a true bomber... with a crew (not just a rear seat) then it should have F3 at its disposal to simulate the all around view that the bomber had. And its not all that easy... flying in F3... jumping to the gun you need to, zooming in, tracking target, jumping to next gun, jumping to pilot view to make sure you arent about to fly into the hillside, back to turret, back to F3 so look around, etc. Sometimes I get so confused I end up being my own worst enemy. :huh
There is a disadvantage to F3 also. You have no idea what your heading, airspeed, and altitude are. You cant look at any of your gauges while in that mode. You have no gunsights, and no bombsights.
But... the Stuka, SBD, TBM, IL-2... I can see them not needing it. They have fighter style cockpits that allow you to look back and see what is behind you. The view they have from the cockpit are better than some of the fighters out there.
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Waaaa, Waaaa, Waaaa.
Boy its always somthing aint it? As soon as they get clipped they come running to the forum.
Now its the nerve of Aces High for not making the big, slow, bombers and attacks planes even easier kills then they are now.
Now you want them blind as well as slow and unmanueverable? :lol
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Waaaa, Waaaa, Waaaa.
Boy its always somthing aint it? As soon as they get clipped they come running to the forum.
Now its the nerve of Aces High for not making the big, slow, bombers and attacks planes even easier kills then they are now.
Now you want them blind as well as slow and unmanueverable? :lol
:aok :rock :aok :salute
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F3 view does not make a fighter plane out of light bombers.
There is *one* gamey method of generating the overshoots you allude to with the Il2, use of very heavy negative Gs, but it is not like that trick is limited to bombers and it would be better addressed through adjustments to the red-out model.
Well this is not the case! Although I have overshot my fair share of il2s! The issue for me is F3 view really is a benefit no matter what folks say. It very easily imroves your situational picture and also magnifies ones ability to create overshoot with said picture! :aok I don't believe an aircraft that had very serious vulnerabilities in real life should have the "magic view" pill in Aces High! Let alone "BETTER" views than any fighter :aok
It would be an easy test to determine if F3 really helps or not! F3 view could be disabled for a single tour, after which the kill ratios be compared with previous tours! I suspect you'd find a drastic difference in the totals, this would confirm that F3 view really does make a difference :aok
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The general responsiveness of fighters leads to a lot of smelly,gamy play too. Most of all stick stirring. You might be surprised at whom Ive caught "stick stirring", which you really cant do in an IL-2 cause its to big and unresponsive. But the point being is if we blamed every aircraft for the gamy play done in it we would have any aircraft we couldn't call "gamy".
The Issue with IL-2 overshoots, and we'll assume its an IL-2 stick who knows what hes doing, is the first thing he'll do is bring you Low, where the fighter stick also gets nervous about being "slow" as well. Next he's going to judge your "E" state coming in, bring the IL-2 right above stall "which is slow" and make that one turn/alt change the IB fighter just cant respond to fast enough. You'd be amazed at how many fighters then stay flat and turn after wards instead of using the vertical. If your "E" state is higher, and probably also if it isn't, theres no way the IL-2 is going to be able to climb with you. If you get clipped by an IL-2 after an overshoot then you are doing something wrong.
Guys were talking about a bomber that has a top speed of about 257 mph and climb rate of about 2,000' per minute. Even planes like the Mustang and Corsair are far better climbers, retain energy far better, roll far better, turn better or far better. I'm only average in fighter plane skills but I "never" have a problem with IL-2s. Maybe some people need to fly them and learn both their strengths and weaknesses.
Conversely, when flying IL-2s, some of the idiotic stunts I see fighter sticks do are incredible. I mean who would upp a P-38, fly across two sectors, and then HO an IL-2 in one pass? All in that order.
Lastly, and here is the important point, with "most" of the fighters I kill in my IL-2s "F-3" views have nothing to do with it. Killing by over shoot is by far a minority compared to killing fighter planes due to the sheer ineptitude of the fighter plane stick.
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The general responsiveness of fighters leads to a lot of smelly,gamy play too. Most of all stick stirring. You might be surprised at whom Ive caught "stick stirring", which you really cant do in an IL-2 cause its to big and unresponsive. But the point being is if we blamed every aircraft for the gamy play done in it we would have any aircraft we couldn't call "gamy".
The Issue with IL-2 overshoots, and we'll assume its an IL-2 stick who knows what hes doing, is the first thing he'll do is bring you Low, where the fighter stick also gets nervous about being "slow" as well. Next he's going to judge your "E" state coming in, bring the IL-2 right above stall "which is slow" and make that one turn/alt change the IB fighter just cant respond to fast enough. You'd be amazed at how many fighters then stay flat and turn after wards instead of using the vertical. If your "E" state is higher, and probably also if it isn't, theres no way the IL-2 is going to be able to climb with you. If you get clipped by an IL-2 after an overshoot then you are doing something wrong.
Guys were talking about a bomber that has a top speed of about 257 mph and climb rate of less then 2,000' per minute. Even planes like the Mustang and Corsair are far better climbers, retain energy far better, roll far better, turn better or far better. I'm only average in fighter plane skills but I "never" have a problem with IL-2s. Maybe some people need to fly them and learn both their strengths and weaknesses.
Conversely, when flying IL-2s, some of the idiotic stunts I see fighter sticks do are incredible. I mean who would upp a P-38, fly across two sectors, and then HO an IL-2 in one pass? All in that order.
Lastly, and here is the important point, with "most" of the fighters I kill in my IL-2s "F-3" views have nothing to do with it. Killing by over shoot is by far a minority compared to killing fighter planes due to the sheer ineptitude of the fighter plane stick.
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It would be an easy test to determine if F3 really helps or not! F3 view could be disabled for a single tour, after which the kill ratios be compared with previous tours! I suspect you'd find a drastic difference in the totals, this would confirm that F3 view really does make a difference :aok
Again, this would prove if F3 matters or not, and if it does matter it should be changed for reality reasons :aok
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And I Agree with shreck, I don't expect it for dedicated bombers like the B-17, B-24, Lancaster's or B-26's but I'm starting to notice as or others that some players or starting to use attack planes like IL2's and A-20's more in a fighter roll. And it is an unfair advantage when in the F3 (3rd person) view because of the better 360 degree vision, not so much for offense but for defensive purposes. Its a lot easier to evade an attack when your in 3rd person view then 1st person view.......
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Again, this would prove if F3 matters or not, and if it does matter it should be changed for reality reasons :aok
I dont think we want to start going down the "it should be changed for reality reasons" road. There are a lot of things built into the game that arent realistic. And if they were all taken out, the game would be unplayable. For example... how about a score and perk reset every time you die... that would be "realistic" since you are essentially starting with a new pilot every time you die in this game. Why isnt that "changed for reality reasons"?
Leave the bombers alone... like Rich46yo said, bombers are big, slow and less maneuverable than the fighters. Take away F3 (the ability to have unrestricted view all around the plane by the crew) and they are blind... and barely survivable. Not many people would fly bombers anymore... or the big fat bomber/attack planes either.... unless they just want to go up and be flying perk givers for all you fighter jocks out there.
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And I Agree with shreck, I don't expect it for dedicated bombers like the B-17, B-24, Lancaster's or B-26's but I'm starting to notice as or others that some players or starting to use attack planes like IL2's and A-20's more in a fighter roll. And it is an unfair advantage when in the F3 (3rd person) view because of the better 360 degree vision, not so much for offense but for defensive purposes. Its a lot easier to evade an attack when your in 3rd person view then 1st person view.......
It's not an unfair advantage... it gives you the chance you need to actually survive in one. I have to admit, I have no idea about the IL-2... never flown one. But if the plane has a crew, the pilot needs the ability to simulate getting bandit reports at all times, while he manuevering. Without F3... this currently is not possible. And putting the plane on autopilot, hopping into a turret just to see what it around, isnt realistic either.
In a fighter (or a plane built on a fighter style frame) you are alone, OR you have a rear gunner. I can see not needing F3 for them. You have to rely on what you can see form the cockpit. But there is no system in the game that will allow the bomber pilot to know what is around him without relying on his crew... which in reality IS IN THE PLANE WITH HIM, even if he is solo piloting in the game.
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I'm starting to notice as or others that some players or starting to use attack planes like IL2's and A-20's more in a fighter roll.
i,m guessing the il2 might be of good use for base defense when FH are down, decent guns/good slow speed handling/tough to kill.but when was the last time you seen a il2 " fighter sweep" :lol heck you hardly even see one above 5 K
and when was the last time you saw a hord of A-20 doing a "fighter sweep" ??
personally i have been flying A-20 as primary ride for over 5 years now and can honestly say i dont use F3 dogfighting because it is a handicap. all F3 is good for is looking around for targets and watching your ars
so my question to you is, if you take F3 away from these rides and certain players still pawn you,what will be your excuse next ??? hopefully not SKILL, because HTC cant take that away from us :salute
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i,m guessing the il2 might be of good use for base defense when FH are down, decent guns/good slow speed handling/tough to kill.but when was the last time you seen a il2 " fighter sweep" :lol heck you hardly even see one above 5 K
and when was the last time you saw a hord of A-20 doing a "fighter sweep" ??
personally i have been flying A-20 as primary ride for over 5 years now and can honestly say i dont use F3 dogfighting because it is a handicap. all F3 is good for is looking around for targets and watching your ars
so my question to you is, if you take F3 away from these rides and certain players still pawn you,what will be your excuse next ??? hopefully not SKILL, because HTC cant take that away from us :salute
We know :furious
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Hardly ever fly il2, but took one out tonight! F3 view is absolutely "arcade easy" mode!! was laughing very very much!! I still think it is dumn :aok It makes defencive flying soooo incredibly easy. Without the enormous SA benefit of F3 view I should have been killed 3-4 times merely cause without the advantage of F3 I'd have ever seen the low6 approaches during the muti threat fight. It made "fixing" my threats very easy indeed :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
It truely needs to be changed! Leave F3 view for any plane that has 2 or more defencive gun positions! clean and easy :aok
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Leave F3 view for any plane that has 2 or more defencive gun positions! clean and easy :aok
Now THAT I can live with... You're still gonna have to sell Rich46yo on that though :lol
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Hardly ever fly il2, but took one out tonight! F3 view is absolutely "arcade easy" mode!! was laughing very very much!! I still think it is dumn :aok It makes defencive flying soooo incredibly easy. Without the enormous SA benefit of F3 view I should have been killed 3-4 times merely cause without the advantage of F3 I'd have ever seen the low6 approaches during the muti threat fight. It made "fixing" my threats very easy indeed :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
It truely needs to be changed! Leave F3 view for any plane that has 2 or more defencive gun positions! clean and easy :aok
Like you said you "hardly ever fly the IL-2". If you had your silliness factor in the thread would have been much lower. Well, maybe not.
And most of you here whining about it probably never fly it much if you ever fly it at all. If you had done so then you'd probably know, as I do, that even with F3 its still a very slow, poor climbing, poor turning, fairly unresponsive, airplane. Its not even a very good HO airplane cause its not very maneuverable and the 37s have a slow ROF.
And you cant fly it, and be in F3 all at the same time. When your actually turning against another airplane in a 1 on 1 you cant be in F3. Theres only one thing F3 is good for and thats for SA in your rear quarters. Without it you'd be completely blind in the rear.
These "arcade" comments from some of you guys really leave me giggling. Somehow you have convinced yourself your playing some other game while twittering around in your little cartoon fighter planes. :huh A more noble, legit game. Why you might as well be spinning around the Skies of France circa 1917, scarf fluttering in the wind, "curses foiled again". To you "real cartoon fighter pilots" I :salute you. Even a little poopie pants with lousy spelling like shreck.
The people in this game who actually make such decisions know full the realities of the IL-2 and the fact it can be easily beaten, or neutralized, with the proper tactics and/or patience. No doubt they also know the ones crying about its F3 are the same ones who got used to camping out in tanks with ease. And now they cant.
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Like you said you "hardly ever fly the IL-2". If you had your silliness factor in the thread would have been much lower. Well, maybe not.
And most of you here whining about it probably never fly it much if you ever fly it at all. If you had done so then you'd probably know, as I do, that even with F3 its still a very slow, poor climbing, poor turning, fairly unresponsive, airplane. Its not even a very good HO airplane cause its not very maneuverable and the 37s have a slow ROF.
And you cant fly it, and be in F3 all at the same time. When your actually turning against another airplane in a 1 on 1 you cant be in F3. Theres only one thing F3 is good for and thats for SA in your rear quarters. Without it you'd be completely blind in the rear.
These "arcade" comments from some of you guys really leave me giggling. Somehow you have convinced yourself your playing some other game while twittering around in your little cartoon fighter planes. :huh A more noble, legit game. Why you might as well be spinning around the Skies of France circa 1917, scarf fluttering in the wind, "curses foiled again". To you "real cartoon fighter pilots" I :salute you. Even a little poopie pants with lousy spelling like shreck.
The people in this game who actually make such decisions know full the realities of the IL-2 and the fact it can be easily beaten, or neutralized, with the proper tactics and/or patience. No doubt they also know the ones crying about its F3 are the same ones who got used to camping out in tanks with ease. And now they cant.
Hmm, I found a button :rofl pressing now! giggity!
So you say you can't turn in F3 mode! Well I flew F3 mode the whole time, my aim was bad but I can see that as being no problem after a few hops! I found F3 to be a great help in maintaining SA and general grasp on the situation! For the life of me I can't see how anyone would say F3 isn't a benefit(not an equalizer)! It seems from your little insults that you use F3 and are afraid of losing it! :aok You say it makes no difference but defend having it :huh
Cake please meet eat!
I never said the il2 was any good at anything, yet I do say F3 view makes the il2 much much better than it was traditionaly and much much better than it should be!
Now as far as my spelling, you can cram that comment up your money maker :salute
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Hmm, I found a button :rofl pressing now! giggity!
So you say you can't turn in F3 mode! Well I flew F3 mode the whole time, my aim was bad but I can see that as being no problem after a few hops! I found F3 to be a great help in maintaining SA and general grasp on the situation! For the life of me I can't see how anyone would say F3 isn't a benefit(not an equalizer)! It seems from your little insults that you use F3 and are afraid of losing it! :aok You say it makes no difference but defend having it :huh
Cake please meet eat!
I never said the il2 was any good at anything, yet I do say F3 view makes the il2 much much better than it was traditionaly and much much better than it should be!
Now as far as my spelling, you can cram that comment up your money maker :salute
Yaknow I had an entire, informative, post all ready to go. Then I wondered? Why bother?
Its a 25 eny bomber. :D Anyone that worried about it like this, well, why bother responding?
When Im in a fighter the IL-2 is the last thing I worry about.
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Yaknow I had an entire, informative, post all ready to go. Then I wondered? Why bother?
Its a 25 eny bomber. :D Anyone that worried about it like this, well, why bother responding?
When Im in a fighter the IL-2 is the last thing I worry about.
I just find it ridiculous to find 10-15K il2s in a furball when I know damn well most if not all would never be there without F3 view! It's got nothing to do with concern over fighting an il2, My comments, to render them to there most basic intent are --> I don't think a plane "built like a tank" for attack purposes with terrible visibility for the pilot traditionaly should have better "actual" views than a fighter, hell better views than a pony! Hell all that armor protection should come with some visual consiquence! Might as well give the mossy F3! Other than speed the raw performance #s are poor in comparison to most fighters for the mossy also in AH :aok
Put one 20mm gun in the nose of the ju88 and see how crazy that plane could be with F3 views!!
I say once again, if F3 view doesn't matter to you at all and has zero bearing on you flying the il2, then why resond to my topic? :huh
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Well if the IL2 can have 3rd person view I want it in the 110's! :P
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I just find it ridiculous to find 10-15K il2s in a furball when I know damn well most if not all would never be there without F3 view! It's got nothing to do with concern over fighting an il2, My comments, to render them to there most basic intent are --> I don't think a plane "built like a tank" for attack purposes with terrible visibility for the pilot traditionaly should have better "actual" views than a fighter, hell better views than a pony! Hell all that armor protection should come with some visual consiquence! Might as well give the mossy F3! Other than speed the raw performance #s are poor in comparison to most fighters for the mossy also in AH :aok
Put one 20mm gun in the nose of the ju88 and see how crazy that plane could be with F3 views!!
I say once again, if F3 view doesn't matter to you at all and has zero bearing on you flying the il2, then why resond to my topic? :huh
In a furball? You mean right around an airbase at 1,000' or under kinda furball? And probably one when the FH are down? :lol
Did you ever wonder why you never see P-39s in that same furball? Psssst, its because you cant see out the back end of one.
Well, and in ending, for every one IL-2 sortie you fly I probably fly 500. I never see, nor do I fly, IL-2s outside their home base and only in defense. And never have I seen more then 4 to 6, and even they are looking for GVs and only dealing with fighters when they have to. Which is pretty obvious cause they are such poor performing aircraft. Nobody in their right mind is going to upp one to turn fight fighters in a furball.
Again you blather about what you dont know. The real life IL-2 was almost impossible to bring down by a fighter. The game one is far easier. The AH IL-2 is modeled no tougher then the Hellcat or Jug, and in some ways less tougher. The IL-2 is a terrible plane to accept HOs with and people HO you all the time!
I'm only of moderate skill in a fighter but I cant remember the last time I got shot down by a Con I didn't know was there. The fact is almost all of the AH fighters allow you easy %360 SA tho they do make you work a little by moving your thumb on your views Hat button. :huh.
15 IL-2s in a furball? :lol............Shreck Ive went back and checked your stats for the last few months and you have virtually no interaction with IL-2s to begin with. You've only flown them a few times, only been shot down by them once or twice, and shoot down about a dozen a month. This all in LW. Last month you killed 14 and only got clipped by one once. This month you shot down 10 while getting kilt by one only once. In April you killed 7 and they killed you twice.
So the question begs, "why the Drama Queen act"? Obviously the F3 views dont bother you to much in the game nor do they bother me. The IL-2 is the last plane Im worried about when attacking a base. I never once heard anyone get worked up cause a few IL-2s were up.
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In a furball? You mean right around an airbase at 1,000' or under kinda furball? And probably one when the FH are down? :lol
Did you ever wonder why you never see P-39s in that same furball? Psssst, its because you cant see out the back end of one.
Well, and in ending, for every one IL-2 sortie you fly I probably fly 500. I never see, nor do I fly, IL-2s outside their home base and only in defense. And never have I seen more then 4 to 6, and even they are looking for GVs and only dealing with fighters when they have to. Which is pretty obvious cause they are such poor performing aircraft. Nobody in their right mind is going to upp one to turn fight fighters in a furball.
Again you blather about what you dont know. The real life IL-2 was almost impossible to bring down by a fighter. The game one is far easier. The AH IL-2 is modeled no tougher then the Hellcat or Jug, and in some ways less tougher. The IL-2 is a terrible plane to accept HOs with and people HO you all the time!
I'm only of moderate skill in a fighter but I cant remember the last time I got shot down by a Con I didn't know was there. The fact is almost all of the AH fighters allow you easy %360 SA tho they do make you work a little by moving your thumb on your views Hat button. :huh.
15 IL-2s in a furball? :lol............Shreck Ive went back and checked your stats for the last few months and you have virtually no interaction with IL-2s to begin with. You've only flown them a few times, only been shot down by them once or twice, and shoot down about a dozen a month. This all in LW. Last month you killed 14 and only got clipped by one once. This month you shot down 10 while getting kilt by one only once. In April you killed 7 and they killed you twice.
So the question begs, "why the Drama Queen act"? Obviously the F3 views dont bother you to much in the game nor do they bother me. The IL-2 is the last plane Im worried about when attacking a base. I never once heard anyone get worked up cause a few IL-2s were up.
Actually I said 10-15K il2s meaning 10-15K in alt! You still ignore the obvious, why reply to my post so vehemently when F3 view doesn't matter to you in the least? Obviously you have a GREAT fear having felt the need to scrutinize my stats :huh
Once again you can cram your childish insults up your poo hole :aok I stand by what I think!!
Your example using the p39 is exactly my point, you have confirmed my theory for me--> TY
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Actually I said 10-15K il2s meaning 10-15K in alt! You still ignore the obvious, why reply to my post so vehemently when F3 view doesn't matter to you in the least? Obviously you have a GREAT fear having felt the need to scrutinize my stats :huh
Once again you can cram your childish insults up your poo hole :aok I stand by what I think!!
Your example using the p39 is exactly my point, you have confirmed my theory for me--> TY
10 to 15K in altitude? :lol Are you kidding?
As for the rest of this, even If I could understand it? :rofl
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I stand by what I think!!
If there was ever an argument that self-destructed with one sentence, this was it...
It isn't what people think, it's what they can establish by facts...
Fact: IL-2s are virtually blind to the rear.
Fact: F3 view is a reasonable and best available option compromise.
Fact: if you get killed by an IL-2, you screwed up royally.
The above are truly facts...
My regards,
Widewing
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They just want F3 removed because they got pwned by an IL2 and now need to cry here.
I say once again, if F3 view doesn't matter to you at all and has zero bearing on you flying the il2, then why resond to my topic? :huh
Because I disagree with you and since this is an open forum I will post what I have to say in any thread I want.
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Yeah but the thing is he doesnt get pwned by IL-2s. Those that do usually make a series of mistakes, and usually dumb ones, that get them into an IL-2s sights. Many either accept an HO, most actually will turn to HO even tho they have every ability to disengage and then re-engage the IL-2 with the advantage. Oh yeah, :lol and the hordes of commie IL-2s at 15k, in F-3, are simply taking over the game. :rofl
Im a heckuva lot more wary about B-25Hs then IL-2 when in a fighter. In the ATA fighter war the IL-2 is virtually a non-player. Boy the 37mm whine threads are aces compared to this one.
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Fact: F3 view is a reasonable and best available option compromise.
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While I believe this statement is true for the large bombers bristling with gun positions, I think a better option for those planes with only a dorsal turret / rear gunner might be to have certain views able to be set from the gunner's position. In the Il2, for example, you could have the ability to set the pilot's 6 view as coming from the gunner's position. You would still have to switch to the gunner's position to use the gun, but you could see from it as if you were sitting there. This would, IMHO, better represent a single additional pair of eyes in the plane feeding information to the pilot. This same system could apply to 110s, B5Ns, D3As, A-20s, etc etc.
Regards,
Hammer
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. Oh yeah, :lol and the hordes of commie IL-2s at 15k, in F-3, are simply taking over the game. :rofl
WOW! I don't think I ever said this!! Again I see more and more(not hordes of them taking over) IL2s entering a furball HIGH and spraying like a garden hose at everything! Hoping, I'm sure to be lucky enough to get back to base and land for the customary--> "WTG IN THAT il2" response! Also if you honestly think IL2 is poor at HOing, me thinks you should fly it some more :aok The fact that the P39 is rare because of it's rear view is just the point I'm talkin about! I honestly believe f3 view for anything but large lumbering bombers is GAMEY and ARCADISH. It's an easy thing to up a ju88 using f3 view and make many folks look silly, it's just hard to kill in the ju88 with the fwd gun! Now insert il2 with it's MASSIVE firepower, I can make many folks look very silly indeed while flying an il2 in f3 view :aok <-- This is not realistic and is something that I should not be able to do! Without f3 view I would have to constantly alter flight path or jump in tail gunner seat to keep an eye on my 6 <--- this is how it should be! It is VERY VERY easy to force an overshoot with an il2 while in f3 view, once they've overshot the easy guns will handle the rest!
Now making it so you couldn't shoot in f3 view might help the gaminess of it! I also think the same about the A20 :aok
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I never said the il2 was any good at anything, yet I do say F3 view makes the il2 much much better than it was traditionaly and much much better than it should be!
Once again, quoted for truth :aok
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If there was ever an argument that self-destructed with one sentence, this was it...
It isn't what people think, it's what they can establish by facts...
Fact: IL-2s are virtually blind to the rear.
Fact: F3 view is a reasonable and best available option compromise.
Fact: if you get killed by an IL-2, you screwed up royally.
The above are truly facts...
My regards,
Widewing
Then in this example every plane that has poor rear views should be F3 capable?
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Then in this example every plane that has poor rear views, has a gunner, and labeled '-bomber/attack' should be F3 capable?
Yes.
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(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l273/woosle_2006/bang-head.gif)
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Then in this example every plane that has poor rear views should be F3 capable?
My thoughts exactly. An aircraft should not receive a "gift" because it has a sub-standard attribute regardless of what it is. The IL-2 has a poor rear view and possible the worst rear view of any single engine aircraft in the game, but it has a most awesome ability to destory GV's and absorb damage. The IL-2 should not in any way shape or form be able to do what it does now (dogfight) as well it as it does and it only able to do that due to the obscene ability of F3 views. Otherwise... it is a sitting duck. Hmm... I guess that means it needs to have fighter cover to be safe enough to work against gv's. Now THERE is a concept. ;)
There is no ryhme of reason as to why the Il-2 has the F3 views and not the 110x. They have the exact same capabilities (dive bomb and direct fire). Yet... for some odd reason the IL-2 is afforded the bonus and the 110x is not.
I've said before that for an aircraft to have the F3 views it should meet 2 criteria: level bombing capability (a legit bomb sight), and a low/rear gunner. Just because an aircraft has a HTC designation of a "bomber" shouldnt denote that it has F3 view capability, imo.
Also, it is quite odd that the Il-2 is able to be scored as bomber or attack, yet the TBM is a bomber only when it too has direct fire/dive bomb capability (rockets are for level bombing???).
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I agree with the argument to disable the IL-2's F3 mode...to some extent, if forced to have an opinion. Mainly in accordance with my opinion on F3 mode being available at all, especialy in the DA (there are no bombers in the DA, why have F3?)
However, I would much rather HTC worked on something that actualy matters.
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Then in this example every plane that has poor rear views,has a gunner, and labeled '-bomber/attack' should be F3 capable?
Yes.
If I understand the reason for the existence of the F3 view, this argument is not valid.
As I understand it, F3 is available to simulate the SA available from the entire crew. Now, I am NOT in favor of giving any fighter F3 views, but logically, any aircraft with a crew on board should have the same capability. Where I think the simplified every-bomber-gets-F3 solution loses its applicability is on the planes with only 1 other crewman, i.e. the dorsal gunner. Why would a SBD have better SA than a 110, a Boulton Paul Defiant, or a Fokker G1 (if they got added)? They have the same, or in the case of the Fokker, more crew than a SBD, D3A, Il-2, etc etc.
Again, I'm not in favor of giving any fighter an F3 view, but I think something besides the generic F3 view should be applied to planes with only a dorsal gunner.
Regards,
Hammer
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I agree with the argument to disable the IL-2's F3 mode...to some extent, if forced to have an opinion. Mainly in accordance with my opinion on F3 mode being available at all, especialy in the DA (there are no bombers in the DA, why have F3?)
However, I would much rather HTC worked on something that actualy matters.
You mean you dont think dog fighting, F3 view, IL-2s at 15,000' matter? :lol
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I haven't read all the posts but I would think the F3 view in a two gun plane with a rear gun position would simulate the rear gunner calling con positions for the pilot. IMO it's not much different than the Linda Blair effect in fighters which simulates rear-view mirrors.
If the F3 view were eliminated I think you'de see far fewer of these planes (IL2, TBM, A-20, D3A, Bf-110, Ju-87, etc.) being flown and they aren't exactly dominating the arena now.
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You mean you dont think dog fighting, F3 view, IL-2s at 15,000' matter? :lol
Well, I think the number of trees that were turned into paper to type this thread is of slightly more importance than external view dogfighting IL-2's are at any altitude.
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I would like to see, why bomber/attacker with tail gunner must have external view, but fighter/attacker with same tail gunner must not.
imho, only planes which actually have full all around view should have external view available.
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While I believe this statement is true for the large bombers bristling with gun positions, I think a better option for those planes with only a dorsal turret / rear gunner might be to have certain views able to be set from the gunner's position. In the Il2, for example, you could have the ability to set the pilot's 6 view as coming from the gunner's position. You would still have to switch to the gunner's position to use the gun, but you could see from it as if you were sitting there. This would, IMHO, better represent a single additional pair of eyes in the plane feeding information to the pilot. This same system could apply to 110s, B5Ns, D3As, A-20s, etc etc.
Regards,
Hammer
Remember that the A-20 and Boston are hampered by HTC not including the ventral gun position. There should be a gun facing down and back, covering a 90 degree arc from dead six to straight down. It was omitted, however, the ability to see that blind spot is permitted by F3 view.
My regards,
Widewing
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There is no ryhme of reason as to why the Il-2 has the F3 views and not the 110x. They have the exact same capabilities (dive bomb and direct fire). Yet... for some odd reason the IL-2 is afforded the bonus and the 110x is not.
Of course there is. It's either outside of your reasoning skills, or you're just ignoring the obvious.
Concentrate. Go fly a 110 and IL-2, tell us what the difference is to the rear. If you can't see the difference, then you are simply not trying.
My regards,
Widewing
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Then in this example every plane that has poor rear views should be F3 capable?
Is there something odd in the water where you live?
It's a simple concept, the IL-2 is blind to the rear due to armor. Originally, the IL-2 was a single seat aircraft. However, because the pilot had no rear vision, it was an easy plane to attack and destroy. Thus, a gunner position was added, with an intercom system. Therefore, the gunner could fire at enemy aircraft and inform the pilot of their presence.
Some stated that since the Bf 110 has a rear gunner, it should have F3 view as well. Wrong. The Bf 110 has excellent views to the rear.
My regards,
Widewing
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I haven't read all the posts but I would think the F3 view in a two gun plane with a rear gun position would simulate the rear gunner calling con positions for the pilot.
Hmm try this--> get a bud to fly tail gunner for you, now go find some cons and have him call out threats to you and see if is remotely close to using F3 views! I think you will be frustrated :aok
Besides in a violent turning fest do you think those gunners can do anything other than try not to vomit while trying to stay oriented?
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Yes limit F-3 in bombers and get rid of it in the DA. People use it all the time in DA to make deflection shots they could not possibly make in any other arena. Then all claim innocents if you call them on it.
R-105
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Yes limit F-3 in bombers and get rid of it in the DA. People use it all the time in DA to make deflection shots they could not possibly make in any other arena. Then all claim innocents if you call them on it.
R-105
I agree that it should be off in the DA....
However, if you film your fights, you can establish who is using it.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing, why not give the planes configured like the Il2 to have the rear gunner's pov as the pilot's 6 view? The purpose of external views is to simulate multiple eye balls' coverage. The Il2 doesn't have eyes in the belly.
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Widewing, why not give the planes configured like the Il2 to have the rear gunner's pov as the pilot's 6 view? The purpose of external views is to simulate multiple eye balls' coverage. The Il2 doesn't have eyes in the belly.
In the case of the IL-2, it doesn't have any views other than forward that are useful. It would have to include all rear quarter views as well. Lower rear views could be argued, but the gunner can lean over an look below to some extent... It's complicated, which is why they use the F3 compromise for simplicity.
My regards,
Widewing
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It wouldn't be complicated if you could scoot and save the view position around in the gunner's range of view, too. Maybe work some coad magic for the view to "warp" to the gunner's box if the arrow keys were held down against the pilot's pov box's boundary for a second or two, because pilot and gunner boxes won't always match. If they do though (non-orthogonal dimensions), it should be feasible to link the two boxes together with a small tunnel to avoid POV exploits (e.g. seeing from a position none of the crew possibly could have).
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3353/3671989079_1561f05799_o.png)
Once you'd saved the head positions that way, you'd have a view system no more complicated but more realistic than now.
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I dont see how switching to gunner view is more realistic. The only realistic alternative is to remove F3 view and force the player to get a friend in the gunner's seat if they want the expanded field of view.
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It's not a switch to gunner view. It's pressing 6-view in the pilot's seat and seeing what the gunner sees in that direction. That's more realistic than an artificial god's eye view. Removing the gunners' field of view is unrealistic. Gunner positions were manned. They reported what they saw. This is why F3 view's there in the first place.
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I really like Moot's line of thinking on this. Sound and certainly more reasonable than the current F3 view system for some planes. :aok
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Well, it's true that it's not quite realistic to have all rearward views, as seen from the gunner, allowed from the pilot seat. Maybe make it only dead 6 view that can scoot back to the gunner's pov. It's just an idea either way.
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Moot, my point being neither F3 view or the ability to see from the gunners view as the check-6 view are anymore realistic than each other.
Convinience? Sure thing. But not realistic either way. The Il-2 specificaly has an excelent gunsite for deflection shots from internal view anyhow. I like your idea and it would work well. Still, any change from the current system would just mean work for HTC providing essentialy the same end result.
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Not the same end result. You'd have planes restricted to what they actually saw. That's more realistic than an invisible floating camera with zero restrictions.
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I think true realism would be having a human tail gunner. Maybe an AI gunner that shouts 'oh god we're going to die' when an enemy dives on you.
However, i will surrender on this topic now, it's all the same to me really.
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I think true realism would be having a human tail gunner. Maybe an AI gunner that shouts 'oh god we're going to die' when an enemy dives on you.
Sadly this was probably more the reality then some poor sob tossed into the back seat calmly calling out threats in an informative nature so the pilot would know exactly what to do!
I like m00ts idea! and my own----> ( allow F3 for bombers with 2 or more defensive firing guns ONLY) :aok
Or at the minimum, attach F3 view to the life of the tail gunner. If the gunner dies so does F3 for that sortie!
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If the gunner dies so does F3 for that sortie!
That's a good one.
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When this happened today I thought about this thread. This! is the A-typical kind of bonehead that gets clipped by an IL-2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ityo8LKxBw Frankly I wanted nothing to do with this Corsair. I had just killed two tanks and for sure didn't want to get into a turn fight with a Corsair, certainly not in the hands of somebody who knows what they are doing.
I needn't of worried. :lol I wanted to avoid the HO but when I saw him dip towards me I headed his way and then ducked him creating separation on my terms, and with energy. There was another fighter in the area, a friendly, so I wasn't to worried about him climbing. Of course all he does is turn around and head right into me for another HO. Now the F3 views didn't give me any kind of edge the normal views of a fighter has, most of all the fighters with the really great canopys and views like the Pony-D or Yak...ect I still had to climb into the Pilots seat to shoot.
I was only going 200 mph. The Corsair was flat out. Now even if he climbed until he was 2,000' above me we still would have been in similar energy states. Even better would have been "He" coming into an enemy base at 8,000' instead of 1,000'.
This is the kind of unimaginative flying I see in IL-2s. Even with F3 views any fighter stick with even moderate skills should have no problem putting them down. But the whiners and the snivelers pull these kind of pooch stunts on bombers like that and then cry "foul" for any various reason. Sometimes its the 1 + 2 drones, sometimes its the auto-fire, sometimes its the F3 views, sometimes its the "hordes at 15,000'" :rofl I'm still laughing over that one.
Ive noticed that about the IL-2s. They draw HO'ing fighters like light does to moths. I see it all the time.
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If the gunner dies so does F3 for that sortie!
genius :aok
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When this happened today I thought about this thread. This! is the A-typical kind of bonehead that gets clipped by an IL-2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ityo8LKxBw Frankly I wanted nothing to do with this Corsair. I had just killed two tanks and for sure didn't want to get into a turn fight with a Corsair, certainly not in the hands of somebody who knows what they are doing.
I needn't of worried. :lol I wanted to avoid the HO but when I saw him dip towards me I headed his way and then ducked him creating separation on my terms, and with energy. There was another fighter in the area, a friendly, so I wasn't to worried about him climbing. Of course all he does is turn around and head right into me for another HO. Now the F3 views didn't give me any kind of edge the normal views of a fighter has, most of all the fighters with the really great canopys and views like the Pony-D or Yak...ect I still had to climb into the Pilots seat to shoot.
I was only going 200 mph. The Corsair was flat out. Now even if he climbed until he was 2,000' above me we still would have been in similar energy states. Even better would have been "He" coming into an enemy base at 8,000' instead of 1,000'.
This is the kind of unimaginative flying I see in IL-2s. Even with F3 views any fighter stick with even moderate skills should have no problem putting them down. But the whiners and the snivelers pull these kind of pooch stunts on bombers like that and then cry "foul" for any various reason. Sometimes its the 1 + 2 drones, sometimes its the auto-fire, sometimes its the F3 views, sometimes its the "hordes at 15,000'" :rofl I'm still laughing over that one.
Ive noticed that about the IL-2s. They draw HO'ing fighters like light does to moths. I see it all the time.
Wow, was that you turning in F3 mode? :rofl Please say again F3 doesn't make a difference :aok You used F3 the entire time except for the shot! I think you confirmed my theory once again TY!
Also once again, no-one said anything about "HORDES of IL2s at 15K" :salute
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And you cant fly it, and be in F3 all at the same time. When your actually turning against another airplane in a 1 on 1 you cant be in F3. Theres only one thing F3 is good for and thats for SA in your rear quarters.
Here is the official line!
Rich, would you like to recant? Or keep sipping the coolaid? :rofl :rofl
The fim shows something quite different :salute
PRICELESS
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Well, it's true that it's not quite realistic to have all rearward views, as seen from the gunner, allowed from the pilot seat. Maybe make it only dead 6 view that can scoot back to the gunner's pov. It's just an idea either way.
Better yet, eliminate the forward view in F3 for two-seaters.... This prevents the dreaded deflection shot that would not be possible without forward F3 view.
My regards,
Widewing
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Hmm try this--> get a bud to fly tail gunner for you, now go find some cons and have him call out threats to you and see if is remotely close to using F3 views! I think you will be frustrated :aok
Besides in a violent turning fest do you think those gunners can do anything other than try not to vomit while trying to stay oriented?
Actually, isn't this how the IL's ability to kill overshooters was discovered? With Viklas(sp?) as a gunner? Wasn't the F3.
wrongway
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Actually, isn't this how the IL's ability to kill overshooters was discovered? With Viklas(sp?) as a gunner? Wasn't the F3.
wrongway
Can't be, if Vilkas is in the gun, they won't have a chance to overshoot :D
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I will bid this thread goodby.
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I will bid this thread goodby.
Good idea! :aok