Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JunkyII on July 21, 2009, 03:00:21 AM
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UN closed off shore accounts of people and companies involved with the missle launchs and under nuclear test. I read in the Korea Herald, that a South Korean think tank is predicting that in the next 6 months the North will either finally listen to the UN or start using its Military to get land for food and money. Another big thing that is going to make this happen faster is the South ending 2 projects in the North that would have created more jobs and helped the economy. Lets hope that crazy man up North decides to spare the life of alot of good soldiers and civilians in order to establish peace on the pennisula and in the region :salute
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If he is anything like Hitler at the end of the war, i really doubt it. I just wonder how bad, or if been bad can it get any worst, their economy is.
BTY JunkyII, Are you station over there on a Air force base? I have a friend who is a F/A-18 pilot there but not sure where he is station at.
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:salute
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NK won't attack anyone. They rattle their sabre from time to time for some attention. Because more than 1/2 of their "Army" is.......unarmed.
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NK won't attack anyone. They rattle their sabre from time to time for some attention. Because more than 1/2 of their "Army" is.......unarmed.
Not sure if that's necessarily true.. In this day and age, I think the DPRK can take more chances than they normally would.. The UN has shown it is dysfunctional, so no worries there..
Kim's youngest son(Kim Jong Un IIRC) will be inheriting his father's position of "Leader Of The Party" which is effectively the defacto leader of the country..
However, he's only in his 20's and it is doubtful that he will actually be leading.. Probably more of figure head.. So, the military will probably be in control.. If that happens, I'm thinking the DPRK will become even more of sore on the rest of the world's arse than it is now.. As I'm sure everyone knows, the DPRK is a military first country.. Most of the country's money goes to the military as well as excesses for political leaders/employees while it's people literally starve to death.. Also, the population itself in the DPRK is indoctrinated in such a way that they truly have no clue or idea what goes on and how things work in the real world.. So, even though they are a starving population, they are still brainwashed more or less.. So, you wouldn't be dealing with just the DPRK's military.. You'd be dealing with an entire population, armed or unarmed.. There's a lot of history behind Korea (unified and divided) and why these people are the way they are as well as why they are so easily indoctrinated.. I could tell you some strange things about these people.. Without western influence, SK would not be much different than the DPRK as far as culture and beliefs.. As in most Asian countries throughout history, life is not held in as high regard as it is in the west.. This is evident by most Asian countries' human rights records. The DPRK would have no problems with it's civil population being decimated as long as the current leadership structure and political figures remained in power..
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As in most Asian countries throughout history, life is not held in as high regard as it is in the west.. This is evident by most Asian countries' human rights records.
I disagree with this, and believe it is the biggest misconception of the west with respect to Asia. Asian mother's love their children as much as any other mother in any other culture. We, the West, cannot continue to view the situation this way--its a cultural failure for us to do so. Life is indeed just as valuable to their culture as it is ours. Their governments and leaders may not treat their people in a manner that reflects that, but don't for a second believe that some despot's callousness is shared by the populations that supply his army. Therein lies our ability to resist their aggression.
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But their sticks may be dangerous
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I disagree with this, and believe it is the biggest misconception of the west with respect to Asia. Asian mother's love their children as much as any other mother in any other culture. We, the West, cannot continue to view the situation this way--its a cultural failure for us to do so. Life is indeed just as valuable to their culture as it is ours. Their governments and leaders may not treat their people in a manner that reflects that, but don't for a second believe that some despot's callousness is shared by the populations that supply his army. Therein lies our ability to resist their aggression.
This is comforting way to look at things with respect to that part of the world.. But also dangerously naive.. Life is absolutely not viewed as valuable as any other culture.. Absolutely not..
Culture includes government since the governing body of the people directly effects and reflects the culture.. Not arguing the point that an Asian mother will care for her children like any other decent mother.. But that isn't really part of the argument/discussion here.. As a culture, as a people, they do not hold the same views on life and personal/human rights/freedoms as western countries..
Several things I learned in Anthropology class from my professor who also happened to be a Chinese Immigrant go inline with sources I've found on the net as well as papers and texts..
1. Rights in Asia are culture specific. (where westernism has taken root in places such as Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, it has introduced the value of individual life and individual rights)
2. The community takes precedence over individuals (this can be exemplified by the Chinese saying "The Nail that sticks out gets hammered down"..
3. Social and economic rights take precedence over civil and political rights ( you can get healthcare and your share of bread/meat for the month, but you can't protest or hold an assembly.
those who don't conform are dealt with severely).
4. Rights are a matter of national sovereignty. (this is evident by China saying that their human rights record is pretty much no one else's concern but their own)
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NK won't attack anyone. They rattle their sabre from time to time for some attention. Because more than 1/2 of their "Army" is.......unarmed.
And your link to confirm this is????
Frankly the NK's are more likely to do something very ungood when they that view their back is to the wall. Their current leader is dying, he may not give a rats posterior about his countrymen. If he attacks and loses half his military, that means half of his costs just went away too. Besides the more he can put his country in a war footing the less likely the peasantry is going to become restless.
Asian mothers may love their kids as much as western mothers do but they are not in charge, nor do they have a say about dear leaders actions.
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NK won't attack anyone. They rattle their sabre from time to time for some attention. Because more than 1/2 of their "Army" is.......unarmed.
I bet people were saying that 55 years ago.....To my knowledge they have never had this bad of a problem with money, then had the UN make it even worse by freezing accounts and ROK stop helping them. Tell me about the "Army" isnt it mandatory that they join for a certain amount of years? Pretty hard for even us to equip our volunteer soldiers with good gear and we dont have half that number.
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Oak, Im in Army at Yongsan, in Seoul. HAs a 30 minute life expectancey if the North attacks. I love when people sit back and say they will just rattle their sabres when the North is on its back looking to solve the problem
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I disagree with this, and believe it is the biggest misconception of the west with respect to Asia. Asian mother's love their children as much as any other mother in any other culture. We, the West, cannot continue to view the situation this way--its a cultural failure for us to do so. Life is indeed just as valuable to their culture as it is ours. Their governments and leaders may not treat their people in a manner that reflects that, but don't for a second believe that some despot's callousness is shared by the populations that supply his army. Therein lies our ability to resist their aggression.
Asia's mothers do, of course, love their children.
However, allow me a couple of first hand anecdotes. My wife is Chinese from the mainland. We were in the military history section of a bookstore when she asked me why the US started the Korean War. This one can be passed off as propaganda. Another time, she asked me why people were forced to put "POW" license plates on their cars. She said that in her culture it is shameful to have been taken captive and no one would voluntarily put it on display.
Regarding North Korean attitudes towards sacrificing its people, it has a track record of putting international prestige and posturing ahead of feeding its people. The people at the top are megalomaniacs. The parallels with Hitler are appropriate. One of the largest problems is that the West will do more to minimize casualties among North Koreans than the DPRK will.
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...Anthropology class...
I should have known. Value for life on a cultural level is completely different than value for life at the political level. Like I said before, the leaders may treat their people like serfs, but it doesn't mean that the citizenry doesn't value life as much as we do. Those people value human rights as much as we do--they just don't have them.
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I should have known. Value for life on a cultural level is completely different than value for life at the political level. Like I said before, the leaders may treat their people like serfs, but it doesn't mean that the citizenry doesn't value life as much as we do. Those people value human rights as much as we do--they just don't have them.
I don't have any doubt that every mother across the planet loves their kids the same as the next, but I wonder if every mother really places as much value on her neighbor's kids as we do.
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Heh. Junky, your life expectancy in Seoul is 2 minutes bud (if the balloon goes up.) That is the flight time of the missle, and that is no exaggeration. Seoul is tgt #1 on the list.
I remember that things happened all the time (in Korea when I was stationed there) that American news media never reported over here in the states. People getting blown up by land mines because they strayed off a trail, ect. That happened a few times a month. North Koreans seen across our side of the fence, then disappeared. Hell bud, you're over there and know far more than we do here about what is going on. Are you on alert? If not, then no worries. Go have a kettle to celebrate =) After all, they wont let you leave ;)
ReDhAwK
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I should have known. Value for life on a cultural level is completely different than value for life at the political level. Like I said before, the leaders may treat their people like serfs, but it doesn't mean that the citizenry doesn't value life as much as we do. Those people value human rights as much as we do--they just don't have them.
Just a question, do you even know anything of Asian culture? Asian History? Have you been there? How many Asians do you actually know that are from their respective countries that spent a significant portion of their lives there and not born in the US or some other country?
I think that if you knew this information, you'd retract what you're saying.. This is something that transcends the political and cultural aspect.. It's how these people operate.. For most of known history, most Asian countries have been communal.. Being communal is something taught in Confucianism.. The good of the many outweigh the need of the few or the one sort of thing..
This applies to both political and cultural aspects.. The Homeless, The Sick, etc. tend to be ignored and cast aside(common in almost every Asian culture).. Children born with birth defects are thrown into institutions or are abandoned at birth (common in China).. Do you not understand that these people have a fundamentally different way of thinking when compared to western countries? Has nothing to do with politics.. In fact, I think this is a "cultural" trait that is magnified in their political structure..
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Oak, Im in Army at Yongsan, in Seoul. HAs a 30 minute life expectancey if the North attacks. I love when people sit back and say they will just rattle their sabres when the North is on its back looking to solve the problem
I love it when people like yourself haven't a clue either. You act like you are in the Pentagon at times and you're far from it. But if any of you paranoids, think that NK will attack again, you're nuts. The people don't want to get annihilated anymore than the SK's people.
Junky please, your life expectancy is 2 mins, not 30 minutes. My father was on the DMZ for 1.5 years and I doubt anything has changed. You're in Seoul, not even on the DMZ. The US always heads into those tunnels, as do the NK's. My father did patrols in those tunnels wide enough for two tanks abreast. One time when he was a bout 1/2 way through, he had to cover himself up as a squad of NK's were in em doing head shots. The identical situation happened to LTARMac as well when he was in the tunnels.
Maverick, all of the paranoids only have "guesses", which is no more accurate than saying that the younger generation in NK would not fight. Again, 1/2 of their "always touted" Large Army is unarmed. They have NOTHING to gain by attacking SK. Again, all they do is constantly make noise to have the spotlight put on them at times. Nothing more, nothing less.
Again, it ain't gonna happen.
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I bet people were saying that 55 years ago.....To my knowledge they have never had this bad of a problem with money, then had the UN make it even worse by freezing accounts and ROK stop helping them. Tell me about the "Army" isnt it mandatory that they join for a certain amount of years? Pretty hard for even us to equip our volunteer soldiers with good gear and we dont have half that number.
Communism in that Country has created their poverty. If they knock off the attention potato behavior, the UN would leave them alone.
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Any time there is an ailing leader in an authoritarian regime, we have to be wary of the possibility that instability could lead to military action. I would think this is especially true in Korea where there is so much firepower concentrated.
However, barring a brain eating bacteria wiping out what's left of Kim Jong Il's capability of reason, I just don't see this going anywhere. The leadership up North would have to actually believe they could obtain something of value by attacking, and at this point I'm not seeing it. They can't win by conquest. I think the U.S. Military adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan would have convinced them that they can not protect their armor or Air defense infrastructure. So maybe they can grab some real estate and try to hold it long enough to reach a favorable negotiated peace? I don't see that as viable either.
As I argued in a different thread on the DPRK, the nuclear program doesn't give them a tactical advantage right now, so... Even the craziest of Dictators don't attack unless they can get something out of it. I think the biggest threat we have (in relation to the ailing leader issue) is an accidental war due to some breakdown in communication. But even that's a pretty remote possibility.
Finally, when I was stationed in Japan I remember tons of coverage of incidents including one where the crew of a DPRK Mini-sub became stranded in the ROK, and (IIRC), had a shootout with the local police. Good times out there in the Pacific lol. But While I was there I was always sure that it was 4th and goal for the Commies! Keep in mind I was over there when Kim Il Sung passed the torch, and we went through the same spaz attack.
-Sik
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Any time there is an ailing leader in an authoritarian regime, we have to be wary of the possibility that instability could lead to military action. I would think this is especially true in Korea where there is so much firepower concentrated.
However, barring a brain eating bacteria wiping out what's left of Kim Jong Il's capability of reason, I just don't see this going anywhere. The leadership up North would have to actually believe they could obtain something of value by attacking, and at this point I'm not seeing it. They can't win by conquest. I think the U.S. Military adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan would have convinced them that they can not protect their armor or Air defense infrastructure. So maybe they can grab some real estate and try to hold it long enough to reach a favorable negotiated peace? I don't see that as viable either.
As I argued in a different thread on the DPRK, the nuclear program doesn't give them a tactical advantage right now, so... Even the craziest of Dictators don't attack unless they can get something out of it. I think the biggest threat we have (in relation to the ailing leader issue) is an accidental war due to some breakdown in communication. But even that's a pretty remote possibility.
Finally, when I was stationed in Japan I remember tons of coverage of incidents including one where the crew of a DPRK Mini-sub became stranded in the ROK, and (IIRC), had a shootout with the local police. Good times out there in the Pacific lol. But While I was there I was always sure that it was 4th and goal for the Commies! Keep in mind I was over there when Kim Il Sung passed the torch, and we went through the same spaz attack.
-Sik
Bingo! Well put Sik.
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And your link to confirm this is????
Their current leader is dying, he may not give a rats posterior about his countrymen.
I agree,
Kim has very slim chances to survive pancreatic cancer , maybe before was afraid for his life.
Fear the man who has nothing to lose.
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Bingo! Well put Sik.
Thanks. This is one of the 5 times of the year that having a degree in International Relations will be momentarily relevant lol.
Now if everyone who read my post can just send me 5 bucks via paypall, I would appreciate it :)
-Sik
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I love it when people like yourself haven't a clue either. You act like you are in the Pentagon at times and you're far from it. But if any of you paranoids, think that NK will attack again, you're nuts. The people don't want to get annihilated anymore than the SK's people.
Junky please, your life expectancy is 2 mins, not 30 minutes. My father was on the DMZ for 1.5 years and I doubt anything has changed. You're in Seoul, not even on the DMZ. The US always heads into those tunnels, as do the NK's. My father did patrols in those tunnels wide enough for two tanks abreast. One time when he was a bout 1/2 way through, he had to cover himself up as a squad of NK's were in em doing head shots. The identical situation happened to LTARMac as well when he was in the tunnels.
Maverick, all of the paranoids only have "guesses", which is no more accurate than saying that the younger generation in NK would not fight. Again, 1/2 of their "always touted" Large Army is unarmed. They have NOTHING to gain by attacking SK. Again, all they do is constantly make noise to have the spotlight put on them at times. Nothing more, nothing less.
Again, it ain't gonna happen.
Other then land for agriculture and a bigger economy, yea they have nothing to gain. I never claimed to be something Im not. Not doubting about your father being over here, but the only thing Ive heard is Seoul has 30 seconds, CP Casey has 7....heres a test for you smart guy, how far can you run in a minute and thirty seconds....Im pretty fast and I wont make it off post. My unit being the only Infantry unit in Seoul has to stay until everyone is out, ill keep my head down for you. Your farther's situation, even though very grave, has nothing to deal with if the North will go to war. In fact it might just help my arguement showing how the North is brain washed by its leaders and will react to whatever they say. The people are brainwashed up there, I dont know what they think and neither do you.
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Kim's son's seem somewhat westernized (booze and gambling :D ) - I predict when push comes to shove once Kim is out of the way they'll push for re-unification.
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Kim's son's seem somewhat westernized (booze and gambling :D ) - I predict when push comes to shove once Kim is out of the way they'll push for re-unification.
Being that he's in his 20's, it his doubtful he'll have any real power.... He's the only son who hasn't gotten into any trouble abroad and is the reason he's his father's favorite..
Kim's son(Kim Jong Un) has been educated in Switzerland, speaks several languages, and has been all over the Eastern Hemisphere and most of Europe..
He makes a great figurehead and some one the DPRK can use to "improve it's image".. But, again, he will be only for show just like the rest of their charade collection(such as the state sponsored tours you can take meant to impress westerners even though most westerners are too smart to buy into their propaganda)..
Believe it or not, all the political elites in the DPRK are westernized to some extent.. They definitely enjoy western luxuries that the rest of the populace can only
dream of or don't even know exist..
Also, China will never allow reunification unless the DPRK is running the show.. No way does China want another Western backed country on their door step..
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but I wonder if every mother really places as much value on her neighbor's kids as we do.
I would say that culturally, the Asian culture places as much emphasis on that as western cultures do, maybe even more so in some aspects.
ack-ack
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re-unification, for a country of people who wake up every day and have been told the west is the reason for everything going wrong in they're life's, for over 50 years.
Think of it like your father "north korea" telling you your mother "south korea" has been "captured by so and so" for the past 50+ years and then you have the power to go and save her "re-unification" THEN you can be a nice happy family again. Because the man drinks and gambles shows nothing for being a westerner, it simply shows he is willing to be a young king "or prince" if you will, while his people continue to be peasant's.
Yeah, this will end well. :rolleyes:
Do not underestimate anyone, and always fear "or understand" those who have nothing too loose regardless of how little they have to gain.
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Just a question, do you even know anything of Asian culture? Asian History? Have you been there? How many Asians do you actually know that are from their respective countries that spent a significant portion of their lives there and not born in the US or some other country?
I think that if you knew this information, you'd retract what you're saying.. This is something that transcends the political and cultural aspect.. It's how these people operate.. For most of known history, most Asian countries have been communal.. Being communal is something taught in Confucianism.. The good of the many outweigh the need of the few or the one sort of thing..
This applies to both political and cultural aspects.. The Homeless, The Sick, etc. tend to be ignored and cast aside(common in almost every Asian culture).. Children born with birth defects are thrown into institutions or are abandoned at birth (common in China).. Do you not understand that these people have a fundamentally different way of thinking when compared to western countries? Has nothing to do with politics.. In fact, I think this is a "cultural" trait that is magnified in their political structure..
When I was in college, my military history degree concentrated on WWII PTO and Vietnam. One of my buddies from school, his father was at Dien Bien Phu when it fell, and also had the experience of observing Chairman Mao's army in the late 1940's. I used to go to his house and listen to his stories over a plate of Chinese food he ordered in Mandarin. I lived in Japan for 3 years. I've trained with the Japanese Defense Force. I've trained with South Korean Marines and have participated in multiple training operations on the peninsula. I've been to Hong Kong twice, Macau once, and have spent a night in Taipei. I've crawled in tunnels at the base of Mt. Suribachi and looked at IJA soldiers' skeletons. I've participated in operations in East Timor, and helped settle down Molotav Cocktail parties at the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia. One of my best friends lived and worked in Japan and Hong Kong, is married to a Japanese national and when over there, I used to visit with them and her friends regularly. I did not, however, take an anthropology course in college taught by an ex-pat Chinese professor. I am not, nor do I pretend to be an expert in Asian culture, but I do have an informed opinion. Disagree if you like, but don't be disrespectful...
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Other then land for agriculture and a bigger economy, yea they have nothing to gain. I never claimed to be something Im not. Not doubting about your father being over here, but the only thing Ive heard is Seoul has 30 seconds, CP Casey has 7....heres a test for you smart guy, how far can you run in a minute and thirty seconds....Im pretty fast and I wont make it off post. My unit being the only Infantry unit in Seoul has to stay until everyone is out, ill keep my head down for you. Your farther's situation, even though very grave, has nothing to deal with if the North will go to war. In fact it might just help my arguement showing how the North is brain washed by its leaders and will react to whatever they say. The people are brainwashed up there, I dont know what they think and neither do you.
They aren't "brainwashed". The only people I see brainwashed are the paranoids. Especially after NK threatens Japan a helluva lot more than SK. But the US/SK always gets mentioned more.
Give it up. You're taking for granted what the NK people are like, by hearing spoon fed BS from our media. Again, the majority of that population doesn't want War. I am smart, but I don't live my life in fear and never will.
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I would say that culturally, the Asian culture places as much emphasis on that as western cultures do, maybe even more so in some aspects.
ack-ack
I'll take your word for it. I just don't know that it's the cultural universal we sometimes like to hope it is.
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When I was in college, my military history degree concentrated on WWII PTO and Vietnam. One of my buddies from school, his father was at Dien Bien Phu when it fell, and also had the experience of observing Chairman Mao's army in the late 1940's. I used to go to his house and listen to his stories over a plate of Chinese food he ordered in Mandarin. I lived in Japan for 3 years. I've trained with the Japanese Defense Force. I've trained with South Korean Marines and have participated in multiple training operations on the peninsula. I've been to Hong Kong twice, Macau once, and have spent a night in Taipei. I've crawled in tunnels at the base of Mt. Suribachi and looked at IJA soldiers' skeletons. I've participated in operations in East Timor, and helped settle down Molotav Cocktail parties at the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia. One of my best friends lived and worked in Japan and Hong Kong, is married to a Japanese national and when over there, I used to visit with them and her friends regularly. I did not, however, take an anthropology course in college taught by an ex-pat Chinese professor. I am not, nor do I pretend to be an expert in Asian culture, but I do have an informed opinion. Disagree if you like, but don't be disrespectful...
Forgive, I didn't mean to belittle or disrespect you and I apologize for coming of a bit abrasive. However, sir...All but a few of the countries(well, Hong Kong isn't really a country) you mentioned have been introduced western values and culture in fairly recent times from a historical stand point.. Not saying your opinion isn't informed one bit..
Again, don't mean to disrespect, but I'm not sure where any of the things you stated as experiencing or seeing disproves my point.......?
I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert either, but Asia (from a political, historical and cultural point of view) has always intrigued me and it is one of the few things
that I read about on a regular basis.. To be honest, I've always thought that Asians (immigrants as well as those who still live in their respective countries) to be a bit odd.. For instance, in South Korea, one does not feel they've gotten a good experience at the Doctor's office unless they get an injection.. Why would anyone think that way???? That's like saying I don't feel like I had a good night at the strip club unless someone kicks me in the nuts.. Things like this pique my interest.. After that, you start to find more strange things.. Eventually, you stumble upon relevant bits of info.. Over time, my research got more and more on the serious side and not just the weird oddities. I can't speak a word of Mandarin or any other Asian tongue beyond common pleasantries(and most of those I've forgotten).. I've never been to any Asian country but will definitely make it there at least once, if not several times hopefully..
I've heard time and time again from a few Chinese immigrants that used to live in my old apartment building that there is little if any regard for the fellow man in Asian culture that hasn't been introduced to western values.. This was one of the things they found most surprising and took some getting used to upon arriving in the states: courtesy.. Words like "Thank You" are hardly used.. Things like "What do you want" are more common in shops and markets as opposed to "Can I help you find something" or "How can I help you?" I had to look the word up because I couldn't remember, but I specifically remember a conversation with one guy from China telling me the most common term used at the market was "su" which is translated as "complain" or "tell" but which they see as "Say it", "Tell It" and "Complain It".
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One thing that slips thru the cracks of these kinds of comparisons, in my experience, is that different cultures will place different amount of emphasis on something like children in different ways. How much total emphasis, or what is emphasized about any given topic needs to be specified if you really want to make meaningful comparisons.
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They aren't "brainwashed". The only people I see brainwashed are the paranoids. Especially after NK threatens Japan a helluva lot more than SK. But the US/SK always gets mentioned more.
Give it up. You're taking for granted what the NK people are like, by hearing spoon fed BS from our media. Again, the majority of that population doesn't want War. I am smart, but I don't live my life in fear and never will.
Must disagree here.. The DPRK are spoon fed more BS than here.. Only thing is, they're spoon smacks you over the head several times to make sure you "get it"..
Kids are indoctrinate from a very young age in the DPRK.. Until they are shown something different from what the government run schools teach them(which will never happen)
they will never think anything differently unless they are one of the lucky "deserters" (as the DPRK likes to call them) who seek asylum in the South or any other western country that will take them.. These people are never exposed to anything beyond what the government wants them to see or believe..
Even in the worst of tensions between the Soviets and "The West", western culture still found it's way behind the Iron Curtain.. It's people were not completely cut off from the western world
as the people of the DPRK are.. Most people of both sides realized exactly what was going on regardless of either side's propaganda.. The DPRK situation is totally different The old generation who lived before there was a North and South are mostly passed on.. It doesn't help that Japan occupied Korea with an iron fist for 35 years.. There are several generations who were born under the tutelage of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il.. These people are effectively indoctrinated and are literally brain washed.. They do not see fault in Kim Jong Il or the DPRK government. Their media is censored and arranged in a such a way that lays blame for everything and that the US is set for invasion at any moment..
Check out this article.. Gives some interesting insight.. Gives especially detailed info how kids in the DPRK are indoctrinated and are basically "little spies".
http://www.tparents.org/Moon-Books/WU2/WU2-6-2.htm (http://www.tparents.org/Moon-Books/WU2/WU2-6-2.htm)
Karaya, you as a US citizen and having been born in this country will find it easy to reason that people as oppressed as North Koreans could think they're way out of the propaganda their government run news and cultural outlets spout at them.. Sure, that would be easy to do if they had umpteen different news outlets, the internet, several news papers with opposing views,
CSPAN, CNN, FOX NEWS, MSNBC, etc, etc, etc. Those people don't have the common information available to us to make up their own minds.. This has been going on since the inception of North Korea.. So, yes... The Populace is effectively brainwashed.. Case in point, I have read countless times of North Koreans that made it to the South via China and Thailand.. Upon getting to North Korea, they find they have absolutely no skills and cannot be productive.. Things like banking or the grocery store(probably never seeing so much food in one place in their lives) are alien concepts to them that they have never even imagined or knew existed.. So, take the fact that most North Koreans are poorly educated(only relatives of the political elite and model party members are allowed secondary education), along with the fact that the population is effectively isolated from any outside influence: Yes....They are brainwashed to think the west are devils.. They are so indoctrinated that those who have defected actually miss being in the North.. Read some of this info in NatGeo a few months ago but they have the article online as well.. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/02/north-korea/oneill-text (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/02/north-korea/oneill-text)
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One thing that slips thru the cracks of these kinds of comparisons, in my experience, is that different cultures will place different amount of emphasis on something like children in different ways. How much total emphasis, or what is emphasized about any given topic needs to be specified if you really want to make meaningful comparisons.
I understand what you're saying and will give you an example..
In modern Asian culture, a child's education is very important.. Parents will do all they can to make sure at least one of their children attend a university and get an education..
When a child fails at school, he/she is more or less disowned. The parents placed a great amount of resources into that child and they failed, thus wasting those valuable resources.
This is seen as one of the greatest disrespects possible: to fail ones parents when they put forth such effort to get you into a university..
In western culture, failing isn't seen as the be all end all.. You can be the biggest F up in the world and your folks will still love you and you'll still have plenty of friends.. Hell, they'll even visit you and write you in prison if you end up there.. In Asian culture, this is unheard of and not even given thought.. One that is deemed a failure is ostracized.. It is made known to everyone in the community..
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I have a friend who is a F/A-18 pilot there but not sure where he is station at.
omg omg is it who I think it is?
ADONAI !?
QQ i kill myself :lol
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I'm not sure where any of the things you stated as experiencing or seeing disproves my point.......?
It wasn't meant to. I'm obviously not going to change your mind. You said:
Just a question, do you even know anything of Asian culture? Asian History? Have you been there? How many Asians do you actually know that are from their respective countries that spent a significant portion of their lives there and not born in the US or some other country?
I think that if you knew this information, you'd retract what you're saying...
The things I stated as experiencing or seeing was a response to this excerpt quoted above. Yes, I do know some things about Asian culture. Yes I do know a good deal of Asian history. I have been (lived) there, etc. My original contention stands.
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It wasn't meant to. I'm obviously not going to change your mind. You said:
The things I stated as experiencing or seeing was a response to this excerpt quoted above. Yes, I do know some things about Asian culture. Yes I do know a good deal of Asian history. I have been (lived) there, etc. My original contention stands.
That's cool, man..
Agree to disagree.... :salute
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Must disagree here.. The DPRK are spoon fed more BS than here..
One of my all time favorite duties was bringing in the "news" from North Korea.
-Sik
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Upon getting to North Korea, they find they have absolutely no skills and cannot be productive.. Things like banking or the grocery store(probably never seeing so much food in one place in their lives) are alien concepts to them that they have never even imagined or knew existed.. So, take the fact that most North Koreans are poorly educated(only relatives of the political elite and model party members are allowed secondary education), along with the fact that the population is effectively isolated from any outside influence: Yes....They are brainwashed to think the west are devils.. They are so indoctrinated that those who have defected actually miss being in the North.. Read some of this info in NatGeo a few months ago but they have the article online as well.. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/02/north-korea/oneill-text (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/02/north-korea/oneill-text)
Had to correct something here.. I meant to say upon arriving in SOUTH Korea, not North...
Sorry, it was extremely late... :salute
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They aren't "brainwashed". The only people I see brainwashed are the paranoids. Especially after NK threatens Japan a helluva lot more than SK. But the US/SK always gets mentioned more.
Give it up. You're taking for granted what the NK people are like, by hearing spoon fed BS from our media. Again, the majority of that population doesn't want War. I am smart, but I don't live my life in fear and never will.
Paranoids? Do you think the BS from the media at large is worse than what the NKoreans are hearing from the "media" there? If so, you outta take that foil hat off your head.
I believe history has shown that a missinformed, closed off society is easily led to an irrational national pride to do things that are suicidal. I don't think it's living in fear to be aware of these nations. It's simply comparing a current event with similar situations to what we have seen in the past.
You don't need to live your life in fear to compare historical events.
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From what I've heard, NK is the only dictatorship where if you get an average citizen alone in a place where it's obvious that no one can hear him, he'll still avow his love for Dear Leader and cast a glance over his shoulder. All of this assumes that he'll even talk to you and not avoid you out of fear.
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Paranoids? Do you think the BS from the media at large is worse than what the NKoreans are hearing from the "media" there? If so, you outta take that foil hat off your head.
I believe history has shown that a missinformed, closed off society is easily led to an irrational national pride to do things that are suicidal. I don't think it's living in fear to be aware of these nations. It's simply comparing a current event with similar situations to what we have seen in the past.
You don't need to live your life in fear to compare historical events.
You're trying to split a hair, that shouldn't be. The fact remains, NK hasn't "invaded anyone" amidst "sabre rattling". They haven't, because they won't. There are many paranoids in this Country Assi. I'm just as informed as Junky is, some of the posts in here already are "paranoid".
Now that you mention the media. It is very interesting that the "pancreatic cancer" thing came out of the blue after the last test. As soon as this "condition broke in the media", I laughed at the coincidence of facts and still do. Because people are taking this also as gospel. The truth is noone really knows for sure if he really has pancreatic cancer. The Machiavellian principle comes into effect here. He wants to stay in power and will do anything to smoke screen the rest of the World.
All I'm saying is that I don't give a rat's arse about the smoke screen, because it will remain there, without him "attacking". Even China has tightened the leash on them since. There have been no attacks in the past, since 53. Pot shots on the DMZ or in the tunnels, not included as it will continue to happen.
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Kim's son's seem somewhat westernized (booze and gambling :D ) - I predict when push comes to shove once Kim is out of the way they'll push for re-unification.
that's the oldest son and he's taken himself out of the running to replace his father. The youngest son (I think he's around 24) is the one closest to the father's ideology and is the one slated to replace him after the father kicks the bucket.
ack-ack
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I've been and lived in Asia (albeit not as long as i'd wish I had.. heck I wish I was still there! :devil ) ... in S. Korea and Japan plus here in the US I've met many immigrants from Vietnam and China so its as close to first-hand knowledge I can get. My intended major was international studies with focus on Asia and history has been one of my greatest interests so I've read a lot about their history. By no means im an expert but here's my view on it:
Life is valued less in Asia : Incorrect. They value life as much as we do.
-however-
there is one overriding factor which is endemic to all asian cultures: Face (call it honor, family honor, etc.. in short, what others in the society will think of you).
To save or to keep 'face' a family that can love their kids as much as we do are quite capable (and its expected of them in many cases) to do something drastic... failing a university entrance for example can result in the young adult being shunned by the family or 'relocated' far away so his dishonorable failure is not learned by others in their social circle. Girls that get pregnant when teens are forced into miscarriages or abortions or are thrown out of the house (either thrown to the streets or sent to live with a far away relative.. usually one that has significantly less social status than they do).
These are extreme examples yes, but they are quite common and the only reason you dont hear much about this is because they are kept secret. The few that do get known become scandals in the local community (which reinforces the need for such drastic measures).
As for the value of life ... down to the individual / family level its the same as us.. but when it comes to their government and society in the macro-scale, the value of life is thrown out the window. Overall in my opinion, their societies are based more on a group-consciousness ... the idea that the whole is more valuable than the one (and an idea which the ruling elite always uses to their advantage as it is with all societies). This is why you can see how in all their wars and conflicts their soldiers are practically cannon fodder (and im not talking equipment or training im talking how they are sent out to fight.. its almost a pattern of them to send a force into a suicidal attack so the following force overruns the place. this is true even in modern times...and you will not see this on western societies with the exception perhaps of the ol' USSR).
When it comes to N. Korea you need to take the above into consideration. Their leader is a very smart nutjob, underneath him are the wealthy elite and below them is the military and finally you have the starving population. All of these with the exception of the leader and the wealthy elite were born and raised knowing only that they live and die for the leader and that their country is the best at everything and the rest of the world hates them for it, etc. The higher ups of course, know their country is utter crap but since they live in luxury its in their best interest to make things stay that way.
So.. will N Korea attack? I'm certain they wont because if they do they will lose and that means losing everything they have. This is not 1950's situation nor will there be another korean war simply because they no longer have the backing of Russia or China. N. Korea stands alone and they know this.
What I think will happen is that once the 'dear leader' dies and his 20yr old son given command, we will see about 5 years of the same old saber rattling (to keep face) and then things will calm down. I do hope that the son, having been educated and lived in the west would take small steps to improving the nation and eventually bringing N. korea to the late 20th century equivalent.
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What I think will happen is that once the 'dear leader' dies and his 20yr old son given command, we will see about 5 years of the same old saber rattling (to keep face) and then things will calm down. I do hope that the son, having been educated and lived in the west would take small steps to improving the nation and eventually bringing N. korea to the late 20th century equivalent.
I read "we will see" and "I hope"....Obviously you could understand someone keeping eyes on something you yourself are not sure about.
So.. will N Korea attack? I'm certain they wont because if they do they will lose and that means losing everything they have. This is not 1950's situation nor will there be another korean war simply because they no longer have the backing of Russia or China. N. Korea stands alone and they know this.
Potential isolation has stopped many attacks. Many have gone on till the bloody end without hesitation.
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All I'm saying is that I don't give a rat's arse about the smoke screen, because it will remain there, without him "attacking". Even China has tightened the leash on them since. There have been no attacks in the past, since 53. Pot shots on the DMZ or in the tunnels, not included as it will continue to happen.
Where there's smoke....
Im happy to have people watching instead of people raising "No Fear" bumperstickers and telling those concerned they are living in fear.
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They aren't "brainwashed". The only people I see brainwashed are the paranoids. Especially after NK threatens Japan a helluva lot more than SK. But the US/SK always gets mentioned more.
Give it up. You're taking for granted what the NK people are like, by hearing spoon fed BS from our media. Again, the majority of that population doesn't want War. I am smart, but I don't live my life in fear and never will.
Im sorry if im wrong but I think your hinting that I do fear for my life.....
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I read "we will see" and "I hope"....Obviously you could understand someone keeping eyes on something you yourself are not sure about.
in a way yes. im sure we will see things calm down because in every succession the first 5 years or so its not the new 'king' that is in control but the cronies his dad left behind. In those 5 or so years they will saber rattle to keep the status quo then it will calm down as the new leader's policies start to take hold... and given the state of things i'm betting it will calm down significantly to receive foreign aid... you know, the ol' 'im not my dad let me prove it to you, give me aid' type of deal.
Potential isolation has stopped many attacks. Many have gone on till the bloody end without hesitation.
Like cuba ... but hey, now that castro is fading away things are starting to change. Like Cuba, N.Korea no longer has the backing of the USSR or China like they did in the cold war days... things in N.Korea are very different than from when the cancer ridden dear leader took power from his daddy... the new leader is inheriting a crapped out country which the world is not very happy with, with no support from a major world power. His options are few and, like Cuba, perhaps the best way to go is to open up a little bit to improve the situation at home (and keep himself in power). Once that door is open you are likely to see the same thing that happened to the USSR: a cascade effect in their society once exposed to better things and ideas.
of course, thats me being hopeful. The other alternative is the land to the north of seoul being radioactive for a very long time or n. korea remaining a whiny starving country that specializes in saber rattling.
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His options are few and, like Cuba, perhaps the best way to go is to open up a little bit to improve the situation at home (and keep himself in power). Once that door is open you are likely to see the same thing that happened to the USSR: a cascade effect in their society once exposed to better things and ideas.
Yay I quote myself ;)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090730/ap_on_re_as/as_nkorea_fast_food
It has begun. First step towards capitalism. This is the way it begun in the USSR, in their satellite Euro states... in Cuba.. and now in N. Korea.
Who would've thought a burger would be the Western world's best weapon. :aok
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Psssst. The idea for N. Korea's government originated in the West. ;)
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Who would've thought a burger would be the Western world's best weapon. :aok
It should be, its been killing us americans for YEARS! :D
And hey, at least now they have food to eat!
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Yay I quote myself ;)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090730/ap_on_re_as/as_nkorea_fast_food
It has begun. First step towards capitalism. This is the way it begun in the USSR, in their satellite Euro states... in Cuba.. and now in N. Korea.
Who would've thought a burger would be the Western world's best weapon. :aok
Too bad none of the regular citizens could ever afford anything(possibly a napkin or a piece of toilet paper, maybe even a straw if they save their wŏn for a few years)..
The places are for show and nothing more.. An overwhelming majority of Pyongyang's population are state employees which are also members of "The Party".. They can
afford such things a few times a month.. Like Pyongyang's streets, this place won't see many people either.. It sure is going to be a great propaganda tool for the tour guides
to show tourists, though!
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Psssst. The idea for N. Korea's government originated in the West. ;)
I don't agree based on what I know.. I am very familiar with Korean Peninsula history.. Please explain how the idea for North Korea's government originated in the West...
I'm quite curious how you came to this conclusion..
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I don't agree based on what I know.. I am very familiar with Korean Peninsula history.. Please explain how the idea for North Korea's government originated in the West...
I'm quite curious how you came to this conclusion..
Some people say random things to sound smart :rolleyes:
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I don't agree based on what I know.. I am very familiar with Korean Peninsula history.. Please explain how the idea for North Korea's government originated in the West...
I'm quite curious how you came to this conclusion..
Marx.
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Marx.
Yes, and Pizza Hut has Pizza....
(http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/fail-owned-pizza-hut-has-pizza-obvious-fail.jpg)
:rolleyes:
In the extreme most generalized sense, what you're saying is partially true.. But that's also like saying the sky is blue or c-a-t spells cat.. C'mon.... LoL
They are things that even most mildly informed people know and not very enlightening...
I suggest you read up on why North Korea is the way it is.. It's much more interesting to actually know the historical details than to say "DPRK IS COMMUNIST BECAUSE MARX"...
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Some people say random things to sound smart :rolleyes:
Regretfully, I'd have to agree.... :frown:
And it's such a shame.. The whole history behind why there's a North and the South is quite interesting
and starts well before WWII..
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:rolleyes:
In the extreme most generalized sense, that is partially true.. But that's also like saying the sky is blue or c-a-t spells cat.. C'mon.... LoL
They are things that most mildly informed people know and not very enlightening... :lol
I suggest you read up on why North Korea is the way it is.. It's much more interesting to actually know the historical details.. :)
In the sense of the word "origin," it is true that N. Korea's government is a Western idea, and not in a generalized or partially true way.
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If the US was not concerned about NK possibly making a ,ilitary venture into the South, then the US would not be moving it's first rate fighters into Japan and ensuring that Guided Missile Cruisers, DDG's, and FFG's are close by.
Anyone saying that the NK's are not a serious threat to the safety of South Korea and the region in general is only fooling themselves. NK, with it's current leader, will become more volatile the less food and resources they have. The runt will start a war before he loses power, that's a given.
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Yes, and Pizza Hut has Pizza....
(http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/fail-owned-pizza-hut-has-pizza-obvious-fail.jpg)
:rolleyes:
In the extreme most generalized sense, what you're saying is partially true.. But that's also like saying the sky is blue or c-a-t spells cat.. C'mon.... LoL
They are things that even most mildly informed people know and not very enlightening...
I suggest you read up on why North Korea is the way it is.. It's much more interesting to actually know the historical details than to say "DPRK IS COMMUNIST BECAUSE MARX"...
That's not what he said. He said "the idea for N. Korea's government originated in the West". I suggest you learn to read. The idea of communism originated in the west, and Marx is considered the "father" of modern communism.
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That's not what he said. He said "the idea for N. Korea's government originated in the West". I suggest you learn to read. The idea of communism originated in the west, and Marx is considered the "father" of modern communism.
I think Plato shares some of the blame, too.
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Sure, but I wouldn't call his ideas "modern". Come to think of it, Marx is getting a bit outdated too.
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True, but I just think it would be too generous not to hold Plato somewhat accountable, as there can be no doubt that Marx was a fan of the Republic.
Rice paddy farming and what's required to be successful at it would seem to preclude the idea of communism ever arising in Asia. The plots are tiny, and to increase the yield requires year round, laborious, technical work. The ground has to be perfectly level, the water level has to be just right, etc., and the more exact you are setting things up, the more rice you get. It's not something you can succeed at with slave labor, i.e. European style serfdom. Feudal lords in Asia allowed their tenants to keep whatever surplus they could get out of their tiny plot, as allowing for profit was the only way to ensure the skilled labor required for an adequate harvest.
Edit:
Just to emphasize the point, with European style serfdom, along with the landlord keeping nearly all the wealth, there were long off seasons when no one worked. In the winter everyone pretty much hunkered down indoors sleeping and relaxing. One of the ideals of communism is that when the work is done, you get to relax and engage in recreation. Compare that to the Chinese proverb that goes "No one who rises before dawn 360 days a year can fail to make his family rich."
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In the sense of the word "origin," it is true that N. Korea's government is a Western idea, and not in a generalized or partially true way.
:rolleyes:
So, you're saying that Marxism is a western idea.. Ok.. Only in the fact that it was thought of in Western Europe by an individual who's views were unique to himself and not any government.. It is not a WESTERN idea..
To be considered a western idea, it has to be implemented in the west en masse..
Western governments and politicians did not think or implement Marxism in those times.. If you want to get technical, Marxism was not even familiar to most scholars until the October Revolution.. The Communist Manifesto was by no means a best seller.. Your talking semantics here... And honestly, has nothing to do with the discussion on North Korea.. Karl Marx is not the reason that North Korea is communist.. Karl Marx probably had no idea there was such a place as Korea.. There are many many more underlying factors and your stating of the most mundanely obvious facts is kind of..........Pointless......? Do you actually have anything relevant to add? Or did you chime in just to sound informed? If so, you're going to have to work a lot harder than that.. :lol
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That's not what he said. He said "the idea for N. Korea's government originated in the West". I suggest you learn to read. The idea of communism originated in the west, and Marx is considered the "father" of modern communism.
The "west" is(or was) the antithesis of communism.. Communism is not a "western" idea..
Again, semantics....
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The "west" is(or was) the antithesis of communism.. Communism is not a "western" idea..
Again, semantics....
I guess Plato is no longer part of Western philosophy.
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I guess Plato is no longer part of Western philosophy.
Whoever said that???? Why are you bringing Plato into this?? The stuff you are bringing up truly has nothing to do with the discussion going on in this thread....
You're stating nothing but semantics.. This is a North Korea thread.. Not a "I need to show how smart I think I am" thread consisting of "Profound" revelations
that the most anyone would know if they paid attention in high school..
May as well be playing 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon or whatever they call it.... Your throwing random facts out that are related by a span of light years and really has
nothing to do with North Korea in modern times.. The ideas of Marxism were so radicalized by the time communism took hold in the North, it's pointless to even bring
Karl Marx, let alone Plato, into the conversation..
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Not worth my time...
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To be considered a western idea, it has to be implemented in the west en masse..
Europe is not in the "west" anymore? Strange. The whole of Europe, including European Russia (west of the Urals) used to be called the "West" and Asia was called the "East". What was in the middle? Why the Middle-East of course!
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/europe/09/timeline_eastern/img/map_alternative_content.gif)
I'd call that "en masse".
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The official ideology of the North Korean state was Marxism-Leninism (both of whom were from the western world) up till 1977 when it was superseded by Jucheism, defined as a creative application of Marxism-Leninism.
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The official ideology of the North Korean state was Marxism-Leninism (both of whom were from the western world) up till 1977 when it was superseded by Jucheism, defined as a creative application of Marxism-Leninism.
Yeah, that's about all the info I'd get too if I read Wiki.... Again, very generalized and doesn't give any indication of why North Korea has the government that it does..
You gents and myself see things differently apparently.. While the facts are the facts, they are mostly semantics.. It's like playing the 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon..
In the end, nothing is truly related except for a very fundamental level.. The Communism that North Korea implements is Stalinism.. While Stalinism is just another flavor
of communism, it is a particular flavor that stings more than your usual Marxism.. We can throw this ball back and forth all day....
From a real world perspective, Communism has it's roots in the "west" just as the U.S. Space Program has it's roots in Nazi Germany.. While the facts are the facts, they are still
quite distant from each other..
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Yeah, that's about all the info I'd get too if I read Wiki.... Again, very generalized and doesn't give any indication of why North Korea has the government that it does..
You gents and myself see things differently apparently.. While the facts are the facts, they are mostly semantics.. It's like playing the 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon..
In the end, nothing is truly related except for a very fundamental level.. The Communism that North Korea implements is Stalinism.. While Stalinism is just another flavor
of communism, it is a particular flavor that stings more than your usual Marxism.. We can throw this ball back and forth all day....
From a real world perspective, Communism has it's roots in the "west" just as the U.S. Space Program has it's roots in Nazi Germany.. While the facts are the facts, they are still
quite distant from each other..
Karl Marx's communism is much different than any other form of Communism ever enacted by any government even Russia. I honestly don't know what point your trying to make any more.
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The Communism that North Korea implements is Stalinism.. While Stalinism is just another flavor
of communism, it is a particular flavor that stings more than your usual Marxism.. We can throw this ball back and forth all day....
Stalin was born and lived in the "west".
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When you treat a snake like a teddy bear...
(http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10071/Snake_bites_model.gif) (http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10071/Snake_bites_model.gif)
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When you treat a snake like a teddy bear...
(http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10071/Snake_bites_model.gif) (http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10071/Snake_bites_model.gif)
dude thats creeps me out, i hate snakes and biting a hotty like that, yes i really do hate snakes :frown:Not worth my time...
you started it :aok
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Europe is not in the "west" anymore? Strange. The whole of Europe, including European Russia (west of the Urals) used to be called the "West" and Asia was called the "East". What was in the middle? Why the Middle-East of course!
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/europe/09/timeline_eastern/img/map_alternative_content.gif)
I'd call that "en masse".
Through out the Cold-War, anything east of the Iron Curtain was considered the East...
Last time.... You talking nothing more than Semantics.. And what you saying is completely off the subject..
Does this really need to be explained?? Soviet propaganda constantly referred to The US and Western Europe as "The West"..
Likewise, Eastern Europe (under Soviet "influence"), the Soviet Union, China, etc, was referred to as "The East"..
Amazing that someone such as yourself needs this explained..
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Stalin was born and lived in the "west".
If you want to get technical, he was born and lived in the Eastern Hemisphere.. This is really going no where..
I don't know why I waste my time.. You are intent on not recognizing basic history and historical nomenclature..
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You asked:
Please explain how the idea for North Korea's government originated in the West...
I'm quite curious how you came to this conclusion..
You shouldn't ask questions if you don't want the answer.
Almost all of Europe is in the Eastern Hemisphere, but it is still in the Western World, including Eastern Europe. So is the Eastern United States if you were wondering.
When Anaxogoras said the idea originated in the West he obviously didn't mean the geopolitical "west" of the Cold War, but that Communism was a Western Philosophy, as distinct from Eastern (Oriental) philosophies.
I don't find it at all amazing that someone such as yourself needs this explained. Keep asking questions; that's how you learn.
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Through out the Cold-War, anything east of the Iron Curtain was considered the East...
Last time.... You talking nothing more than Semantics.. And what you saying is completely off the subject..
Does this really need to be explained?? Soviet propaganda constantly referred to The US and Western Europe as "The West"..
Likewise, Eastern Europe (under Soviet "influence"), the Soviet Union, China, etc, was referred to as "The East"..
Amazing that someone such as yourself needs this explained..
Eastern Bloc countries was the common term for the European countries that were under the Soviet banner.
ack-ack
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Turkey, and in particular Istanbul is called "the gateway to the (Middle) East" since it resides on both the European and Asian continents. Russia also has real estate on both continents, but 70-90% of the population lives in the European part west of the Ural mountains (where Europe and Asia merge). Europe, and often North Africa, is considered in the Western World or the Occident (sunset in Latin), as distinct from the Eastern World or the Orient (sunrise). The Americas and Australia are also considered parts of the Western World. The distinction is cultural, not geographical or political.
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Well I see it this way.
North Korea is behaving aggressively because of its huge supporter China, but now China is realising their pet has gotten off its leash and now they are denouncing them. Why not invade and take back control? I'm sure the US and all its firepower would enjoy the help while this Iraq debacle continues. No the Chinese are Either
A. Secretly supporting the NK forces in their anti US stance OR
B. Are really PO'ed but won't do stuff all because even if the NK nuclear program is primitive it is confirmed that they have nuclear weapons, as crappy as these may be they are WELL within range of China and in turn the Chinese are scared shiczeless.
Either the peoples republic of North Korea will collapse and we will enter to establish order and democracy ( If we beat the Chinese to the punch) or they will start WW3 and commit suicide.
Now we have backed the SKs to the hilt and have armed them with every possible means at our disposal not to mention our own task forces in the area so its unlikely that the NKs will invade unless of course out of desperation. The UN cannot do anything besides impose embargo's and the like, this is FORCING us into war and they must know it. NK relies on trade for its food, without it they are sunk and they know it, food ,oil and rawmaterials, all things NK has to trade for to get. this in turn will force them to invade SK to seize our assets and start a war involving us and possibly China and the Russian federation, I don't think china will let their favourite minion die.
To sum up NK will almost certainly start a war if we continue on the path we are following
I just :pray that it does not come to that
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"this in turn will force them to invade SK to seize our assets and start a war"
NK will not gain any food or oil or any raw materials by invading. They know this that is why their only tool is the fact that they can DESTROY any city just south of the DMZ (aka, Seoul) in 30 seconds. They cannot mass their troops without it being seen by satellites and they know that any military venture south of the DMZ will be met by a very modern and very determined SK army with the backing of the US and the UN (which literally surrounds NK via china, japan and sea routes).
"involving us and possibly China and the Russian federation, I don't think china will let their favourite minion die."
I think they will be very glad to let them die. In fact, my best guess is they'll present them on a silver platter and do their darndest to grab a piece of the spoils for themselves. China is no longer Maoist china with the Russian bear poking their rear ends... the sheer amount of money that passes between china and the western world far overwhelms any advantage NK provides them with.
Obviously the Chinese would hate it to come to a shooting war because they know that it would only end up with a Korea that is democratic and pro-west so its in their best interest to play the card of 'concerned neighbor' they have been playing so far and have NK slowly change into a caricature of China's gov/economy : Communist but prospering.