Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: shreck on August 03, 2009, 01:33:19 PM
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I was in TT over the weekend flying ju88, and making many folks look silly, had many folks augering all around me. Even gave a zeke a run for his money for quite awhile! If the ju88 had a single cannon, I would have killed many an enemy! Now I freely admit I was flying in F3 mode, none of this would have been possible without F3 view! So I say F3 should be for 4 engine bombers only and I wish it would be changed! It makes "UNREALISTIC" flying of twin engine bombers "COMMON PLACE" <----- This should not be so!! :aok
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I was in TT over the weekend flying ju88, and making many folks look silly, had many folks augering all around me. Even gave a zeke a run for his money for quite awhile! If the ju88 had a single cannon, I would have killed many an enemy! Now I freely admit I was flying in F3 mode, none of this would have been possible without F3 view! So I say F3 should be for 4 engine bombers only and I wish it would be changed! It makes "UNREALISTIC" flying of twin engine bombers "COMMON PLACE" <----- This should not be so!! :aok
So you think we should get rid of F3 view. But as long as we have it your going to use it...right?
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I was in TT over the weekend flying ju88, and making many folks look silly, had many folks augering all around me. Even gave a zeke a run for his money for quite awhile! If the ju88 had a single cannon, I would have killed many an enemy! Now I freely admit I was flying in F3 mode, none of this would have been possible without F3 view! So I say F3 should be for 4 engine bombers only and I wish it would be changed! It makes "UNREALISTIC" flying of twin engine bombers "COMMON PLACE" <----- This should not be so!! :aok
One day many, many years ago I was watching Drex fly a Ju88 against 6 bandits. I stumbled upon him as he was in the middle of the fight against these 5 enemy planes so I hit WEP and dove in to lend him a hand. By the time I got to him and splashed one of the bandits, he was just finishing off the 5th one. Flew that thing around like it was a Spitfire, an amazing thing to see.
ack-ack
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So a Ju88 which has a mostly glass cockpit and 4 crew members should NOT have F3 view, but the Lancaster which has no downward visibility SHOULD have F3 view?
Yeah.
I'm not even going to speak about using a buff in a way it was not intended. (IE Dogfighting)
*Spits the hook out and swims away.*
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One day many, many years ago I was watching Drex fly a Ju88 against 6 bandits. I stumbled upon him as he was in the middle of the fight against these 5 enemy planes so I hit WEP and dove in to lend him a hand. By the time I got to him and splashed one of the bandits, he was just finishing off the 5th one. Flew that thing around like it was a Spitfire, an amazing thing to see.
ack-ack
Well Drex is a superhero, I'm sure of it :rock
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So you think we should get rid of F3 view. But as long as we have it your going to use it...right?
Well so many folks including you have replied in the past that "F3 view really doesn't help that much" Which I say---> BS I contend that without F3 Iwould have never been able to pull off what I was doin in TT this past weekend! With that said, IF F3 view is almost solely responsible for A20s, IL2s, and JU88s etc flying like fighters Then I would say F3 view matters allot and should be ONLY for 4 eng. bombers! F3 view makes a silly arcade game of an excellent product called Aces High :aok
As far as F3 view in lancs, well I can tell you lancs and any other 4 engine bird will not turn like an IL2, A20 or JU88, so F3 view in these birds ONLY enhances their situational awareness! It does not amplify their performance to rediculous levels as it does for IL2, A20 and JU88 etc :aok
Also as far as I know it is impossible to shoot defensive guns accurately in a heavy buff while in F3 view! It is QUITE easy to shoot in F3 view with the other aircraft---> Quite easy indeed!!!!
At the minimum, how about making it so you CAN'T shoot in F3 view!!
F3 view in these birds is---> EASYMODE all the way :aok :rofl :rofl
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+1. Needs to be fixed. You want to fly it as a fighter then you can really fly it like a fighter!
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+1. Needs to be fixed. You want to fly it as a fighter then you can really fly it like a fighter!
Do the additional crewmbers leave the plane once you're starting to maneuver in a Ju 88?
Historically they gave constant updates on approaching fighters, so that the Ju 88 could break away at the right moment.
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Do the additional crewmbers leave the plane once you're starting to maneuver in a Ju 88?
Historically they gave constant updates on approaching fighters, so that the Ju 88 could break away at the right moment.
Give them the view from any gun and that is it, end of list.
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So you're saying that because some people want to up <insert med/hvy buff name here> and use it as a fighter that the rest of us that fly them normally (most of the time) should be restricted in views?
Yeah if you can't kill a <insert med/hvy buff name here> in a moving dog fight then you need more help than you realize.
And shreck, stop using planes in the MA in unintended roles and then coming here complaining they need to be nerfed. A Ju88 is not a dog fighter, you know it, you just used it as one for the sole reason to complain about F3 view being unfair.
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So you're saying that because some people want to up <insert med/hvy buff name here> and use it as a fighter that the rest of us that fly them normally (most of the time) should be restricted in views?
Yeah if you can't kill a <insert med/hvy buff name here> in a moving dog fight then you need more help than you realize.
And shreck, stop using planes in the MA in unintended roles and then coming here complaining they need to be nerfed. A Ju88 is not a dog fighter, you know it, you just used it as one for the sole reason to complain about F3 view being unfair.
The F3 view in flight is gamey. Regardless of "intended/unintended roles".
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Didn't we just get done with this same whine err subject a few weeks ago? Last one was because shreck was getting killed by IL2. Now this one is because because he was maneuvering good in a pretty maneuverable attack plane? Like Iv said before give me an AI gunner that reflects my gunning skills and/or a crew that tells me where that enemy plane is whenever I want. Until then F3 is a game option in a game. You don't like it don't use it.
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Thats just precious shreck. Flying them nintendo style and then coming here to complain about it. Might as well grab some Lancs and go dive bomb GVs with em. :lol
Tonight I saw some clown doing the Soul Train act with JUs. I dont know who it was. We had some Lanc-stuka heros come at us ay a GV base attack. Almost always its Bish. But Ive seen a few of our rook kiddies do it.
Boy i wish they'd fix the flight model of these bombers so they can only be flown like bombers.
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Well Drex is a superhero, I'm sure of it :rock
Drex sucks, even he'll be the first to admit it. :D
ack-ack
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Give them the view from any gun and that is it, end of list.
+1
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Thats just precious shreck. Flying them nintendo style and then coming here to complain about it. Might as well grab some Lancs and go dive bomb GVs with em. :lol
Tonight I saw some clown doing the Soul Train act with JUs. I dont know who it was. We had some Lanc-stuka heros come at us ay a GV base attack. Almost always its Bish. But Ive seen a few of our rook kiddies do it.
Boy i wish they'd fix the flight model of these bombers so they can only be flown like bombers.
The Ju 88 was a pretty robust aircraft... it was designed to be able to be used as a divebomber, and was adapted to the nightfighter role later in the war. I don't doubt its capabilities.
If it had an MG/FF up front instead of the MG17 it'd be a fun fighter... but the MG17 just isn't enough IMO.
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Well, the Ju 88 is very maneuverable for a bomber, but the Boston III flies circles around it with complete ease. 2bighorn and I spent an evening dueling with the two, and the Boston was so superior it wasn't ever a real contest.
As to F3 view.... If your fighters are being shot down by maneuvering bombers, it's easy to blame F3 view. However, the reality is that you truly stink. Running up a big kill total in the A-20G, for example, is a result of beating players who could suck a baseball through a garden hose. The fact is that the A-20G is inferior to virtually every fighter. It is good enough, however, that a skilled pilot will beat the average player without much stress. Much of the A-20's perceived advantage is that few players expect it to maneuver fight them. It holds E well, has good flaps and a gentle stall. Combine that with 6 guns packed into the nose and you have an aircraft that is very lethal should someone find themselves in front of one.
Look at the SBD and TBM. Two .50 cal MGs is adequate if you can saddle up briefly. Both will out-turn the bulk of the fighter set. A TBM has the same turn radius as a Hurricane. The SBD is even better. However, they are little more than helpless in a vertical fight. Yet, the average player will not think in three dimensions, but try to turn with them and pay the price.
F3 view allows a pilot to see what he's blind to. It simulates having other crew members to spot and report the enemy. It improves SA.
It does not improve your flying skills. It does not improve your aim. Sucky pilots using F3 are still sucky pilots who happen to see better behind them. That's all, nothing more.
So, to repeat the key point... If you are having trouble with maneuvering bombers, the problem is you, not the bomber's F3 view.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thats just precious shreck. Flying them nintendo style and then coming here to complain about it.
The Ju 88 was often flown "Nintendo style" for real. Unlike Allied bombers, planes like Ju 88, Do 217 etc had often to rely on heavy maneuvering to evade enemy attacks after steath & speed failed, not formation flying and heavy firepower. Especially on the Western front after BoB, when single German bombers did fly attacks on Great Britain under adverse weather conditions.
If you read combat reports, you will notice German medium bombers doing split-s & similar maneuvers to evade attacking Spitfires or Mosquitoes. As already noticed the 88 was originally designed to be a divebomber, and thus very durable & capable of doing such moves.
That we may see rather "extreme" maneuvering much more often in here is not necessarily a result of faulty modeling that has to be fixed, but of a totally different combat environment.
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Well, the Ju 88 is very maneuverable for a bomber, but the Boston III flies circles around it with complete ease. 2bighorn and I spent an evening dueling with the two, and the Boston was so superior it wasn't ever a real contest.
As to F3 view.... If your fighters are being shot down by maneuvering bombers, it's easy to blame F3 view. However, the reality is that you truly stink. Running up a big kill total in the A-20G, for example, is a result of beating players who could suck a baseball through a garden hose. The fact is that the A-20G is inferior to virtually every fighter. It is good enough, however, that a skilled pilot will beat the average player without much stress. Much of the A-20's perceived advantage is that few players expect it to maneuver fight them. It holds E well, has good flaps and a gentle stall. Combine that with 6 guns packed into the nose and you have an aircraft that is very lethal should someone find themselves in front of one.
Look at the SBD and TBM. Two .50 cal MGs is adequate if you can saddle up briefly. Both will out-turn the bulk of the fighter set. A TBM has the same turn radius as a Hurricane. The SBD is even better. However, they are little more than helpless in a vertical fight. Yet, the average player will not think in three dimensions, but try to turn with them and pay the price.
F3 view allows a pilot to see what he's blind to. It simulates having other crew members to spot and report the enemy. It improves SA.
It does not improve your flying skills. It does not improve your aim. Sucky pilots using F3 are still sucky pilots who happen to see better behind them. That's all, nothing more.
So, to repeat the key point... If you are having trouble with maneuvering bombers, the problem is you, not the bomber's F3 view.
My regards,
Widewing
Contradictory statements.
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The F3 view is a little too all encompassing, I wish it was a little less limited without completely castrating the bombers to a gunners view. The only fix I can think of is to make a padlock view for gunners which would cause the padlock view to fail if the plane flew outside the possible views permitted by that buff type.
Horrible idea and not worth 'coading'. Imho, as long as they can't gun effectively from the F3 perspective, I'm happy.
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The Ju 88 was often flown "Nintendo style" for real. Unlike Allied bombers, planes like Ju 88, Do 217 etc had often to rely on heavy maneuvering to evade enemy attacks after steath & speed failed, not formation flying and heavy firepower. Especially on the Western front after BoB, when single German bombers did fly attacks on Great Britain under adverse weather conditions.
If you read combat reports, you will notice German medium bombers doing split-s & similar maneuvers to evade attacking Spitfires or Mosquitoes. As already noticed the 88 was originally designed to be a divebomber, and thus very durable & capable of doing such moves.
That we may see rather "extreme" maneuvering much more often in here is not necessarily a result of faulty modeling that has to be fixed, but of a totally different combat environment.
I doubt actual JU-88 pilots continuously typed different speeds into their Alt/X controls so's they could flop around, and their drones, in manuevers that would leave an actual crew drowning in their own vomit. Next time I see it I'll film it and if the real JU's could actually do it then I'll buy German for the rest of my life. ;)
I saw a guy do it with Lancs once. No doubt he was thinking himself very skilled.
These are not legitimate combat manuevers Im talking about. Split S's I could live with.
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I'm not even going to speak about using a buff in a way it was not intended. (IE Dogfighting)
*Spits the hook out and swims away.*
Actualy i've read reports of Allied bomber pilot who were seperated from the stream and subsequently shot down by squadrons of cannon armed ju88s so in this case it's legit. As for f3 mode i just wish it was disabled in the DA. Thats the one place where it would be nice to know your enemy is not using f3 mode to make SA and gunnery that much easier.
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Maybe we should enable the mossie to have f3 mode- it does have a extra crew member after all. :D
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"I'm not even going to speak about using a buff in a way it was not intended. (IE Dogfighting)
*Spits the hook out and swims away.*"
Isn't there a squadron around here that flies twin engined buffs around like they were fighters? If I remember right they were a bunch of loonies.
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I didn't know you could use F3 while flying. Is that only for bombers? I think I tried it a P-39 while flying (because I wanted to look at the plane) and it would not allow that view.
Why is it enabled for Bombers in flight?
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I doubt actual JU-88 pilots continuously typed different speeds into their Alt/X controls so's they could flop around, and their drones, in manuevers that would leave an actual crew drowning in their own vomit. Next time I see it I'll film it and if the real JU's could actually do it then I'll buy German for the rest of my life. ;)
I saw a guy do it with Lancs once. No doubt he was thinking himself very skilled.
These are not legitimate combat manuevers Im talking about. Split S's I could live with.
The same could easily be said about IL2 drivers and their planes :aok
If anyone here thinks F3 view is not a "MAJOR and UNREALISTIC" enhancement to the performance possibilties of these aircraft, than they are lying for fear of losing F3 not wanting their advantage taken away or they're NUTS :uhoh
It's easy to see who is who in these posts! :aok
Again, make it so you cannot shoot in F3 view! Simple and effective :aok
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Do the additional crewmbers leave the plane once you're starting to maneuver in a Ju 88?
Historically they gave constant updates on approaching fighters, so that the Ju 88 could break away at the right moment.
I'm pretty confident that during such manouvres the crew is far more concerned with "holding on to ANYTHING" so they weren't flopping around the fuselage than peeking out there gun holes and accurately directing the pilot as to specific threats and specific locations! I would think the crew and the communication would be pretty much useless under these manouvring instances! :aok
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Give them the view from any gun and that is it, end of list.
This would be an ideal compromise. Have F3 (or whatever) allow you to visually jump to your gunners position while still flying the plane from the pilot's position. It seems realistic, fair, and not completely different than what we have today.
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Give them the view from any gun and that is it, end of list.
Actually this might be the best idea yet!
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We've discussed this idea before. Let the normal view keys give you the gunners' view, but with the ability to still control the aircraft.
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The same could easily be said about IL2 drivers and their planes :aok
If anyone here thinks F3 view is not a "MAJOR and UNREALISTIC" enhancement to the performance possibilties of these aircraft, than they are lying for fear of losing F3 not wanting their advantage taken away or they're NUTS :uhoh
It's easy to see who is who in these posts! :aok
Again, make it so you cannot shoot in F3 view! Simple and effective :aok
Widewing was spot on in his comments. F3 will only help your SA but it's not going to improve your skill or gunnery. If you're a crappy pilot to begin with, F3 isn't going to magically make you an experten, you're still gonna suck. The only difference is with F3, you'll be able to have a really good view of that other guy whipping your arse.
ack-ack
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The same could easily be said about IL2 drivers and their planes :aok
If anyone here thinks F3 view is not a "MAJOR and UNREALISTIC" enhancement to the performance possibilties of these aircraft, than they are lying for fear of losing F3 not wanting their advantage taken away or they're NUTS :uhoh
It's easy to see who is who in these posts! :aok
Again, make it so you cannot shoot in F3 view! Simple and effective :aok
Its very easy to tell. For instance I can tell you almost never fly bombers and I dont even need to check your stats.
Thats what gets me about these F3 whine threads. The ones who start them, and support them, never fly bombers and simply want killing bombers to be made easier for them. They cry about F3 being unrealistic but thats the bottom line. They simply want to be able to kill them easier. After all its not easy developing the bomber hunting skills of players like Lusche so why not take the easy route and just get rid of F3?
Funny at how little you see the JU-88 attacking GVs even tho the actual bird was more then capable of making precise dive bomb runs, "as many 2 engined attack bombers could". The reason for that is because little johnnie adds up the bombload of a JU-88 compared to a Lanc-stuka ,X 3, and he has 14X 3 1,000lb bombs to chuck at flak and tanks. Little Johnnie, after all, can count to 21 and 14 1,000lb bombs is a Lanc-stuka dweebs wet dream. I bet if we ever got B-29s you'd see the same ones tossing 20 X 3 of em out when diving on GVs from 2,000'. :lol
Change the flight model. 4 engined bombers should not be allowed to be used that way.
As far as F3 stands there is balance in the bomber war as long as the bombers are flown as they historically were. Pirouetting 3 Lancs around cyber space as fast as you can type .speed 150/.speed 300 isn't realistic and is dweebery in the extreme. To go out and do it, and then come here crying about F3, is just as dweeby. Especially when your a guy who never flys bombers no-how.
Even with F3 we got guys that can slice and dice any 3 bombers, and bomber sticks, in the game. So if they can do it why cant you?
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Even with F3 we got guys that can slice and dice any 3 bombers, and bomber sticks, in the game. So if they can do it why cant you?
Hmm, I certainly have little problem with killing bombers, unless 999 is involved! You still fail to see my point so I'll try again! You are absolutely correct that I very rarely if ever fly bombers. Sooooooo with that said, how can I up ju88s, il2, A20, d3, sbd, boston etc. and make many many folks look out-right silly! Hell I turn fought a zeke for 3 miutes in TT the other day in a ju88 and lost only cause I augered with one engine out<--from a picking spit" BTW who I caused to auger shortly there after!
My rant is NOT about bombers!!!!!!!! It is merely about F3 view making it possible for certain twin eng. and single eng. planes to more or less compete in an environement they should not be able to! The main purpose for ALL the aircraft mentioned was for ground attack either strategic or tactical, they were designed optimally for their time to perform these tasks NOT compete with fighters (that were designed to KILL other planes) in a swirling, turning dogfight.
So again I'll sum up, I very rarely fly the planes mentioned! So how can I ( a mediocre cartoon pilot at best ) compete with far superior aircraft in a furball? The answer is simple---> F3 view! It's that simple, It's like flyin the 80's version of atari 1942 :rofl :rofl
The SUPERIOR advantage to a persons situational awareness while in F3 view is unmistakable! For a game such as Aces High ( which obviously prides itself in accuracy and historical flavor) to allow such an "ARCADE" feel to part of it's product is astonishing to me!
F3 view for lumbering 4 eng. bombers is an obvious fix for defense, But F3 view in the mentioned planes is used for OFFENSE! There is your difference :aok Maybe that is the crux of the matter!
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As been stated, using F3 isn't going to increase your skills. If you suck, you're still gonna suck if you use F3.
ack-ack
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I'm pretty confident that during such manouvres the crew is far more concerned with "holding on to ANYTHING" so they weren't flopping around the fuselage than peeking out there gun holes and accurately directing the pilot as to specific threats and specific locations! I would think the crew and the communication would be pretty much useless under these manouvring instances! :aok
Not at all.... I have over 3,000 hours in Navy aircraft as a crewmember, and logged quite a bit of time in TA-4Js. It gets a bit tough trying to clear your six while under heavy g loading, but you have a job to do and you do it. I could track adversaries despite hard maneuvering. It's just extremely tiring.
BTDT
My regards,
Widewing
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I need F3 mode so I can drool at me sexy pony as I fly around the map. :P
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned how F3 makes it easier to spot tanks and other gv's.
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We've discussed this idea before. Let the normal view keys give you the gunners' view, but with the ability to still control the aircraft.
Won't work... People have enough trouble flying facing forward....
My regards,
Widewing
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned how F3 makes it easier to spot tanks and other gv's.
So? What's the point? You have a four man crew, all of whom are scanning the ground for targets.
Ever fly a SAR (search and rescue)? You have guys hanging out of windows looking for rafts or guys floating in the sea. See something, tell the pilot via ICS and direct him to the sighting...
Listen folks, unless you have actually crewed a multi-place military aircraft, you're mostly yakking out of your respective butts.
My regards,
Widewing
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Shreck the point "I" was making was that a game policy, or rule, or view, or whatever isnt inherently/automatically dweebish when a player uses it in a dweebish manner. Its the play of the player their ownselves that make it dweebish.
If you got rid of F3 views many would stop even flying bombers, maybe even quit the game. It would be impossable to fly the bomber and fight the guns effectivly without it. If your in a gunners seat your only going to be able to use rudders no matter what the view rules are.
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Won't work... People have enough trouble flying facing forward....
most of us are pretty proficient at it actualy, though i'm not saying i support having a gunner view as a six view
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This is a big, fat ad hominem:
Listen folks, unless you have actually crewed a multi-place military aircraft, you're mostly yakking out of your respective butts.
And this is a big, fat red herring:
Won't work... People have enough trouble flying facing forward....
I don't know why you're resorting to non-logical persuasion. How a floating eyeball is anything like crewing a multi-place military aircraft is yet to be explained.
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From a post by Swoop (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264544.0.html):
'Corkscrewing' was the most effective way of making the Lanc hard to hit. It involved throwing the aircraft into a sharp, diving turn out of the fighter's gunsight, then pulling sharply up in the opposite direction.
From a post by Zigrat (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,7798.0.html)
"The target was partially covered by cloud when we got there, but we could see the ground target indicators laid by the Pathfinders, and were able to bomb them accurately. The sky was bright with fire and explosions as we closed our bomb doors, and with our load lightened, we turned for home with a great sense of elation. Suddenly, the mid-upper gunner shouted over the intercom "Corkscrew port!" As I threw our lancaster into the initial diving turn i felt the thud of cannon shell in the port wing and the shudder and noise as both my gunners fired back. After a few violent corkscrew manouvers all went quiet. I took a breath and mid-upper reported that he thought he had hit the Ju-88 which he had seen spiral away."
Flg Off Michael Beetham, No 50 Sqn, Skellinthorpe, 1943
www.ww2aircraft.net: (http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/stories/sunderland-vs-eight-ju-88s-7987.html)
Sunderland vs. eight Ju 88's
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There were 11 crewmen on board the Sunderland, including nine Australians and two British. The crew was on an anti-submarine patrol and also searching for remains of BOAC Flight 777, an airliner that had left Gibraltar the day before and subsequently had been shot down over the Bay of Biscay.
In the late afternoon, one of the crew spotted the eight Ju 88s. Bombs and depth charges were dumped while the pilot, Walker, "redlined" the engines. Two Ju 88s made passes at the flying boat, one from each side, scoring hits while the Sunderland went through wild "corkscrew" evasive manoeuvres. The fighters managed to knock out one engine. On the third pass of the fighters, the top-turret gunner managed to shoot one down. Another Ju 88 disabled the tail turret but the next fighter that made a pass was bracketed by the top and nose turrets and shot down as well.
Still another fighter attacked, smashing the Sunderland's radio gear, wounding most of the crew in varying degrees and mortally wounding one of the side gunners. A Ju 88 tried to attack from the rear but the tail turret gunner had managed to regain some control over the turret and shot it down. The surviving fighters pressed home their attacks despite the losses. The nose gunner damaged one of the fighters and set one of its engines on fire. Two more of the attackers were also hit and the other two finally disengaged and departed. Luftwaffe records indicate these were the only two that made it back to base.
The Sunderland was a wreck. The crew threw everything they could overboard and nursed the aircraft back to the Cornish coast where Walker managed to land and beach it. The crew waded ashore, carrying their dead comrade, while the surf broke the Sunderland up. Walker received the Distinguished Service Order and several of the other crew received medals as well. Walker went on to a ground job while the rest of the crew was given a new Sunderland. That Sunderland and its crew disappeared without a trace over the Bay of Biscay two months later after reporting by radio that they were under attack by six Ju 88s.
wrongway
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This is a big, fat ad hominem:
And this is a big, fat red herring:
I don't know why you're resorting to non-logical persuasion. How a floating eyeball is anything like crewing a multi-place military aircraft is yet to be explained.
LOLOL You guys want to severely limit the vision of multi-place aircraft, but no one making this argument has any real concept of what can be seen from the real thing. No one understands that multiple sets of eyes are scanning the sky at the same moment.
Therefore, since you have no experience in these types of aircraft. Your reference is solely that of the game, right? You have no point of reference, no hands on.
How do you code the view from every crew station at the same time?
Answer: You can't.
Ever take a ride in a B-25? Virtually every angle is covered by at least one crew station. Every crew member can report what he sees, all at the same time. You can't readily code that any other way but as it is currently done. The closest you could get is to severely limit zoom out, leaving the aircraft itself as an obstacle to vision, and that still limits you to one set of eyes from one position at any given time. Inasmuch as the combined crew can see just about every angle and all at the same time, F3 is not an unreasonable replication of that.
My regards,
Widewing
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LOLOL You guys want to severely limit the vision of multi-place aircraft, but no one making this argument has any real concept of what can be seen from the real thing. No one understands that multiple sets of eyes are scanning the sky at the same moment.
Therefore, since you have no experience in these types of aircraft. Your reference is solely that of the game, right? You have no point of reference, no hands on.
How do you code the view from every crew station at the same time?
Answer: You can't.
Ever take a ride in a B-25? Virtually every angle is covered by at least one crew station. Every crew member can report what he sees, all at the same time. You can't readily code that any other way but as it is currently done. The closest you could get is to severely limit zoom out, leaving the aircraft itself as an obstacle to vision, and that still limits you to one set of eyes from one position at any given time. Inasmuch as the combined crew can see just about every angle and all at the same time, F3 is not an unreasonable replication of that.
My regards,
Widewing
True enough I guess, still it would be a plus to make fwd firing guns operable ONLY from the pilots seat!
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LOLOL You guys want to severely limit the vision of multi-place aircraft, but no one making this argument has any real concept of what can be seen from the real thing. No one understands that multiple sets of eyes are scanning the sky at the same moment.
Therefore, since you have no experience in these types of aircraft. Your reference is solely that of the game, right? You have no point of reference, no hands on.
How do you code the view from every crew station at the same time?
Answer: You can't.
Ever take a ride in a B-25? Virtually every angle is covered by at least one crew station. Every crew member can report what he sees, all at the same time. You can't readily code that any other way but as it is currently done. The closest you could get is to severely limit zoom out, leaving the aircraft itself as an obstacle to vision, and that still limits you to one set of eyes from one position at any given time. Inasmuch as the combined crew can see just about every angle and all at the same time, F3 is not an unreasonable replication of that.
My regards,
Widewing
Ok, fair enough. But what about planes like the A20? I can understand being able to scan most of the sky, but what of (nearly) directly below the plane? I've never been in one, so I don't know.
It doesn't really matter to me one way or another (I don't have a button mapped for F3, so I don't have the time to use it in fights, anyway), but it seems like there are a few aircraft that possibly have views they really wouldn't.
Anyway, Shreck, you can make people look silly because you've put your share of effort into this game. With or without F3, you'd still be able to do alright.
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I don't know the answer for F-3 mode for bombers. I don't under stand why fighters have F-3 mode in the DA. You get people using F-3 to make fantastic deflection shots they could never make in the MA. If you confront them about using F-3 they all plead Innocent. This is one reason I don't use the DA for practice much. As a Gv guy I do not like F-3 mode for the low planes bombing us. I think maybe the way to fix the Stuka Lancaster's is to have the wings remodeled to the real planes so when they start dive bombing in a 48000 lbs plane the wings brake off as in real life End of problem.
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Ok, fair enough. But what about planes like the A20? I can understand being able to scan most of the sky, but what of (nearly) directly below the plane? I've never been in one, so I don't know.
It doesn't really matter to me one way or another (I don't have a button mapped for F3, so I don't have the time to use it in fights, anyway), but it seems like there are a few aircraft that possibly have views they really wouldn't.
Anyway, Shreck, you can make people look silly because you've put your share of effort into this game. With or without F3, you'd still be able to do alright.
The A-20 had a ventral gun station (behind and below the turret) not modeled by HTC (they didn't have any photos at the time, but do now). This was a door that opened and the gunner could see over vertical and horizontal arcs of about 120 degrees. There are also small oval windows on either side of the gunner's position allowing for visibility to the sides.
See the photos below.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Douglas_A-20G_Havoc_USAF.jpg)
(http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/051118-F-1234P-053.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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True enough I guess, still it would be a plus to make fwd firing guns operable ONLY from the pilots seat!
That is something we agree on!
My regards,
Widewing
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Alright, cool, that works for me then :aok
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True enough I guess, still it would be a plus to make fwd firing guns operable ONLY from the pilots seat!
They already are. You cant fire a B-26s nose MGs from a gunners seat.
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Um when you say "making forward firing guns only fire-able by the pilot" what are you referring too? Do you mean the fixed guns or the turrets? Because the fixed guns are already controlled by the pilot, but the turrets aren't and shouldn't be as they're operated by another crew member.
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I think what hes talking about is certain attack planes, I think the IL2 can, are able to shoot their main guns while in F3. Doing this accuratly is about as easy as shooting rearward from an AR-234. Its possible to do but compared to the accuracy of shooting with sights its a joke and 1/2. What possible advantage could this give compared to the loss of accuracy? Most of all when jumping to & from F3 to pilot is so easy.
I have it programmed on my X-52 throttle and can switch in an instant. I fooled around with this once in offline mode, and with dive bombing from F3. Both aint worth a darn and cant compare to sitting in a pilots position looking thru a sight.
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Ok I understand now, and yeah it makes on real sense. If you can reliably hit things in F3 view then you are a rare pilot.
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I think what hes talking about is certain attack planes, I think the IL2 can, are able to shoot their main guns while in F3. Doing this accuratly is about as easy as shooting rearward from an AR-234. Its possible to do but compared to the accuracy of shooting with sights its a joke and 1/2. What possible advantage could this give compared to the loss of accuracy? Most of all when jumping to & from F3 to pilot is so easy.
I have it programmed on my X-52 throttle and can switch in an instant. I fooled around with this once in offline mode, and with dive bombing from F3. Both aint worth a darn and cant compare to sitting in a pilots position looking thru a sight.
Actually I've found, after a couple hops shooting from F3 view is extremely easy, and quite superior than in the seat!!!
Your ability to set-up and anticipate the snap shot is much improved over the same opportunity in the seat!
If you have problems shooting from F3, I don't believe you!! you're hiding something :aok :aok
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Actually I've found, after a couple hops shooting from F3 view is extremely easy, and quite superior than in the seat!!!
Your ability to set-up and anticipate the snap shot is much improved over the same opportunity in the seat!
If you have problems shooting from F3, I don't believe you!! you're hiding something :aok :aok
Now I know you're just trolling. Gunning in F3 is very hard because you have no reference points. You have to move your camera around the fusage to see in front of you, otherwise you're just seeing the tail of your aircraft and it obstructs your view.
Also isn't odd that I just looked up score for tour 114 and you have no kills while flying a bomber...how odd. And your Tour 115 score also shows no kills in a bomber either....hrm. (this is unless I typed in the wrong handle in which case point me in the right direction and I'll stand corrected.)
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Also isn't odd that I just looked up score for tour 114 and you have no kills while flying a bomber...how odd. And your Tour 115 score also shows no kills in a bomber either....hrm. (this is unless I typed in the wrong handle in which case point me in the right direction and I'll stand corrected.)
I believe the way bombers are scored is that it doesn't record kills made by the pilot using the fixed guns.
ack-ack
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I believe the way bombers are scored is that it doesn't record kills made by the pilot using the fixed guns.
They are recorded. Fly a Il-2 in bomber mode and kill some planes and you will see. No difference between fixed guns and turret guns.
BTW, the stats page does always record all kills, regardless of which scoring category the pilot had selected.
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A20, (in bomber mode) doesn't record kills for fixed nose guns... Unless they've changed something again...
Didn't know that they did record in IL2.... Huh, thats hardly fair!!! Anyone know why?
RC
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A20, (in bomber mode) doesn't record kills for fixed nose guns... Unless they've changed something again...
On stats page, all kills always count. The mode doesn't matter. For example kills of GVs in fighter mode do appear there too.
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They are recorded. Fly a Il-2 in bomber mode and kill some planes and you will see. No difference between fixed guns and turret guns.
BTW, the stats page does always record all kills, regardless of which scoring category the pilot had selected.
Thanks for clearing it up.
ack-ack
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Then they've changed it again!! A year or so back, it did show on scorecard...
Then all of a sudden it didn't show anymore.. Now it does again? Huh, weird?!
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Was getting unsure, so I just went to LW and scored a A2A kill in a A20. Shows up both on scoresheet as well on stats.
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In Bomber mode???, If you say it, I'll believe it.... But just makin sure!!!
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In Bomber mode???,
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5569/clipboard01ict.jpg)
The two A20 sorties (the first one was aborted on spawn due to bad fuel selection) were my first and only 2 sorties in bomber mode this tour.
The 5 attack kills have been a single P-51D sortie.
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OK, cool, thx man!!! LOL, I'm not crazy, it DIDN'T SHOW before... No BS!!!
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I just noticed.. only about 2 1/2 hours of flight time in 4 days of this tour :cry
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Then they've changed it again!! A year or so back, it did show on scorecard...
Then all of a sudden it didn't show anymore.. Now it does again? Huh, weird?!
They do not count towards your score but they've always been there.
When you go to the Stats section, the last box, and click in "kills" you get the number of kills per week in each plane you got kills in. At the very bottom is "Total Kills", "Total Kills towards Rank", and "Total Kills not counted towards Rank". The latter were some of those bomber kills.
wrongway
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I would think that the rear view would be unobstructed in A20's and Il2's if this were to happen.
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The A-20 had a ventral gun station (behind and below the turret) not modeled by HTC (they didn't have any photos at the time, but do now). This was a door that opened and the gunner could see over vertical and horizontal arcs of about 120 degrees. There are also small oval windows on either side of the gunner's position allowing for visibility to the sides.
See the photos below.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Douglas_A-20G_Havoc_USAF.jpg)
(http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/051118-F-1234P-053.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
You have to like a guy that can back up things with facts. :aok
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Now I know you're just trolling. Gunning in F3 is very hard because you have no reference points. You have to move your camera around the fusage to see in front of you, otherwise you're just seeing the tail of your aircraft and it obstructs your view.
Also isn't odd that I just looked up score for tour 114 and you have no kills while flying a bomber...how odd. And your Tour 115 score also shows no kills in a bomber either....hrm. (this is unless I typed in the wrong handle in which case point me in the right direction and I'll stand corrected.)
The only shot that is "more" difficult is the straight6 shot in F3 view cause your plane is in the way! But if your plane is covering the target then just "pull the trigger!! Lead and snap shots are far easier, when firing in F3 view you have full"out of plane" view! Pulling lead is much superior cause you are not having to deal with the target disapearing under your nose! F3 view takes away sooooo many of the variables compared to being in the seat!
Not a troll! just how I see it :aok
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Actually I've found, after a couple hops shooting from F3 view is extremely easy, and quite superior than in the seat!!!
Your ability to set-up and anticipate the snap shot is much improved over the same opportunity in the seat!
If you have problems shooting from F3, I don't believe you!! you're hiding something :aok :aok
So what arena, when,using what plane, and against what planes did you rack up this amazing F3/guns slaughter? :lol
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So what arena, when,using what plane, and against what planes did you rack up this amazing F3/guns slaughter? :lol
Cmon, honestly you can't shoot in F3 as much as you use it? Lets be frank here (sorry frank) For me shooting in F3 has been a problem in the past, but recently I actually gave it some attention and for the life of me, I cannot believe anyone who uses F3 regularly could not see the ease and superior nature of gunning in F3! It boggles the mind!
Woah to the person who tries to B&Z an il2 that is in F3 view :aok
Aren't you the same guy who said "il2s are terrible for HOing" ? :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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So your not going to answer the question?
Your at a point now where you are babbling nonsense. Once again, where and when have you shot down enemy planes using the F3 view of an attack plane"?
Cmon, honestly you can't shoot in F3 as much as you use it? Lets be frank here (sorry frank) For me shooting in F3 has been a problem in the past, but recently I actually gave it some attention and for the life of me, I cannot believe anyone who uses F3 regularly could not see the ease and superior nature of gunning in F3! It boggles the mind!
Woah to the person who tries to B&Z an il2 that is in F3 view :aok
Aren't you the same guy who said "il2s are terrible for HOing" ? :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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So your not going to answer the question?
Your at a point now where you are babbling nonsense. Once again, where and when have you shot down enemy planes using the F3 view of an attack plane"?
You tell us, obviously you are so affected by this thread that you are probably ATM scrutinizing my score records (which you have done before) :rofl :rofl :rofl "as if it matters" so please enlighten us ;)
I already said I was in TT with JU88 over the weekend! Shooting in F3 was very easy indeed :aok Now killing cons with the peeeeeshooter is quite a different story :aok
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You tell us, obviously you are so affected by this thread that you are probably ATM scrutinizing my score records (which you have done before) :rofl :rofl :rofl "as if it matters" so please enlighten us ;)
I already said I was in TT with JU88 over the weekend! Shooting in F3 was very easy indeed :aok Now killing cons with the peeeeeshooter is quite a different story :aok
Boy Ive heard some beauties in this forum but this one wins a little red rose on your lapel, smilies and all.
You expect us to believe you shot down 2 cons with that single crummy small caliber foward MG of a JU-88? And it had to be a single JU cause drones couldnt keep up with the manuevers. Even if you didnt blow them up from the distance their single MG would fire where "it" was pointed and not where "you" were pointing. Anybody think different then upp some JU-88s and try it yourself. Shooting in F3, while in a JU-88, is very difficult. Add to it the single peashooter is offset to begin with.
Had you said B-26s or an A-20 you might have smoked your way thru this. Hahahahaha, the JU-88 :rofl While I have you here let me ask? How many Tigers have you killed in one pass while in IL2s? From F3? :lol
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Boy Ive heard some beauties in this forum but this one wins a little red rose on your lapel, smilies and all.
You expect us to believe you shot down 2 cons with that single crummy small caliber foward MG of a JU-88? And it had to be a single JU cause drones couldnt keep up with the manuevers. Even if you didnt blow them up from the distance their single MG would fire where "it" was pointed and not where "you" were pointing. Anybody think different then upp some JU-88s and try it yourself. Shooting in F3, while in a JU-88, is very difficult. Add to it the single peashooter is offset to begin with.
Had you said B-26s or an A-20 you might have smoked your way thru this. Hahahahaha, the JU-88 :rofl While I have you here let me ask? How many Tigers have you killed in one pass while in IL2s? From F3? :lol
Actually I never said I shot them down! In reality I made them auger "which is even funnier" and yes attributable to F3 :aok What I said was, shooting in F3 view is quite easy indeed! I'm sure it sounded like hail falling on a tin roof to the spits and zeke I was peppering with the bean straw! You should try shooting down an il2 with a VAL<--LOL funny stuff!
You are correct it was a single JU88, I upped it to specifically have some laughs and F I G H T with it! You should try it, it's quite a hoot.
I don't use il2s to kill tigers or GVs for that matter, and I very rarely bomb GVs! To me upping an il2 and killing many tanks with the guns is one of the most "GAMEY" and lame parts of Aces High! But I'll play along :aok I'm sure shooting at GVs and bombing them in F3 view is quite simple and advantages as well!
Sticking the JU88 in the middle of a bunch of twitfires and bonies is one of the funniest things I've done in this game!
Made possible by F3 view :aok :aok
We can go off to the side in any arena and duke it out in JU88s if you like, I guarantee you will have a BLAST! :aok :salute
You fly in the pilots seat, and I'll fly F3 and we'll see who has the absolute advantage :aok
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I already said I was in TT with JU88 over the weekend! Shooting in F3 was very easy indeed :aok Now killing cons with the peeeeeshooter is quite a different story :aok
Rich, this is my actual qoute you made reference too! I fail to see where I said I shot anyone down!
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:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
OMGosh! So let me get this straight. You took a Ju88 to TT, you shot at some enemies while in F3 view, you failed to down any enemy aircraft, and then you came to the wishlist saying get rid of F3 view for most bombers because it's easy to shoot planes in F3 view.
Shreck are you a high ranking government official?
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I suggest a test!
I will be the bait JU88 or il2 or whatever! Someone else fly a fighter preferably 50 cals at the biggest, but not critical. I will privately make note of which fight I was in F3 view and which ones were not. My opponent will honestly take note of what flights I was easiest to kill in! This may be rather subjective but it could be a good baseline in identifying IF F3 improves a planes abilities by having a much better view of what is happening or not!
These should be co-alt merges! Any volunteers? :aok
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:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
OMGosh! So let me get this straight. You took a Ju88 to TT, you shot at some enemies while in F3 view, you failed to down any enemy aircraft, and then you came to the wishlist saying get rid of F3 view for most bombers because it's easy to shoot planes in F3 view.
Shreck are you a high ranking government official?
Beefcake, I've been trollin this "pet peave" of mine for awhile now! So either engage me or ignore me, it's no matter to me. After I've talked to only myself for awhile I'll go away ;) :salute
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I suggest a test!
I will be the bait JU88 or il2 or whatever! Someone else fly a fighter preferably 50 cals at the biggest, but not critical. I will privately make note of which fight I was in F3 view and which ones were not. My opponent will honestly take note of what flights I was easiest to kill in! This may be rather subjective but it could be a good baseline in identifying IF F3 improves a planes abilities by having a much better view of what is happening or not!
These should be co-alt merges! Any volunteers? :aok
Sure, I'll play. It would be an interesting experiment :aok
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Sure, I'll play. It would be an interesting experiment :aok
Vudak! always the trooper :salute I'll be on tonight
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I suggest a test!
I will be the bait JU88 or il2 or whatever! Someone else fly a fighter preferably 50 cals at the biggest, but not critical. I will privately make note of which fight I was in F3 view and which ones were not. My opponent will honestly take note of what flights I was easiest to kill in! This may be rather subjective but it could be a good baseline in identifying IF F3 improves a planes abilities by having a much better view of what is happening or not!
These should be co-alt merges! Any volunteers? :aok
better yet you grab a Il2 or a A-20
you can use f3
i,ll grab a A-20 keep my view in internal only and film entire fight to prove it and lets see who wins
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Rich, this is my actual qoute you made reference too! I fail to see where I said I shot anyone down!
Naw. You said somthing else. Hard to tell cause youv gone back and edited almost all your posts.
Even if you didnt, and let me get this straight. You say youv never shot anything down in bomber F3 mode but that we should get rid of it cause gunning in F3 mode makes shooting down airplanes very easy. Is that what your saying? Or maybe you have never shot in F3 mode at all and we should get rid of it cause if you 'wanted to shoot in F3 mode" it would make the game to one sided for the bomber.
Tell me if im getting close. BTW how is Vudak going to know your in F3 mode?
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What a purse fight. How surprising that those who regularly fly aircraft that have the F3 view staunchly defend it, and those of us who don't think it's gamey. I feel like a stereotype.
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The only shot that is "more" difficult is the straight6 shot in F3 view cause your plane is in the way! But if your plane is covering the target then just "pull the trigger!! Lead and snap shots are far easier, when firing in F3 view you have full"out of plane" view! Pulling lead is much superior cause you are not having to deal with the target disapearing under your nose! F3 view takes away sooooo many of the variables compared to being in the seat!
Not a troll! just how I see it :aok
Once again I agree with shreck. With a minimal amount of practice, it is relatively easy to score on deflection shots from F3 view.
Just the other night, I intercepted a raid while flying an A-20. I fought a 1v1 with a Tempest, shooting off one elevator and a flap. He skedaddled for home. I then engaged a Niki, killing him after he failed on his second HO. I dived down and chased a P-51D, who decided that an immelmen was a smart option. This time I switched to F3 view and had no trouble hosing the Mustang, which exploded. Still in F3, I attacked a B-17 from its low six, and hosed it from nose to tail.... Another boom.
Low on gas, I landed. However, there's no doubt that one can quickly get skilled at deflection shooting from F3. Hence, I agree that forward firing guns should only be enabled when in the cockpit.
I think F3 serves the purpose it was intended, and I believe that I have adequately defined valid reasoning why it is correct (there will be the obtuse few who could not be convinced to sit in a bucket of water when their bellybutton is on fire). Nonetheless, it is easy to abuse F3 for gunnery purposes and that should be addressed.
My regards,
Widewing
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(there will be the obtuse few who could not be convinced to sit in a bucket of water when their bellybutton is on fire).
Exactly what I was thinking except in the other direction. :P
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Naw. You said somthing else. Hard to tell cause youv gone back and edited almost all your posts.
Even if you didnt, and let me get this straight. You say youv never shot anything down in bomber F3 mode but that we should get rid of it cause gunning in F3 mode makes shooting down airplanes very easy. Is that what your saying? Or maybe you have never shot in F3 mode at all and we should get rid of it cause if you 'wanted to shoot in F3 mode" it would make the game to one sided for the bomber.
Tell me if im getting close. BTW how is Vudak going to know your in F3 mode?
Ugh!
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N/M Widewing made my point easier than I was!! TY :salute :salute
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While i do not use it in such a way, i do agree with WW that guns should be stoped from firing "if at all possible" while in f3 mode, IF its not from a gunner spot.
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disabled fixed guns from F3 mode would be the perfect solution.
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disabled fixed guns from F3 mode would be the perfect solution.
Bombs and rockets too
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Don't reply to this guy's this guy is in ju88 in TT bombing gv's give you an idea of what he is.
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Don't reply to this guy's this guy is in ju88 in TT bombing gv's give you an idea of what he is.
And what might that be? ;)
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Nonetheless, it is easy to abuse F3 for gunnery purposes and that should be addressed.
My regards,
Widewing
So let it be written, so let it be done. :aok
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gcgZo60Vlvo/R8ztKFqYvSI/AAAAAAAAAcQ/BVArbPou1pc/s320/Yul_Brynner_in_The_Ten_Commandments_film_trailer.jpg)
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What a purse fight. How surprising that those who regularly fly aircraft that have the F3 view staunchly defend it, and those of us who don't think it's gamey. I feel like a stereotype.
Im not defending nothing. And I could care less about whether or not front guns were disabled in F3 cause I never shoot like that, "except to try it in offline mode to see how easy it is". For all I know there are some attack/bombers that are easier to do it in then others.
My point is the JU-88 is not one of them. The thing has a single little 30 cal peashooter offset. The IL2 is also another one where'as its dumb to try it in. Maybey you can walk in rounds with deflection shots but does that really make it easier? When popping in and out of pilot/F3 is so easy? I have a Hat button on my throttle mapped in attack profile that allows me in and out of F3 with a flick of a finger so why would I want to shoot without a sight? With the airplane in the way of point of aim?
So I couldnt care less if foward guns are disabled in F3. Unlike Widewing I never use them that way, and If I did I wouldnt "use them that way" and then come here and say they should get rid of it. :huh "Obtuse indeed". Nor would I do it and then come here and use the example of my dweebery as reason to get rid of F3 all together. Like Shreck.
Actually before this thread popped up I didnt even know anyone was doing it.
BTW Shreck the reason I said IL2s were a poor choice for HO'ing, at least with the 37mms, is because the cannon have a slow ROF and at closing speeds of 500 to 700 mph+ "that" matters. Another thing is they are to heavy and slow to be very responsive to the stick. Another thing is their damage model isnt that much different then a heavy Jabos. Most of all in HOs cause their oil target is huge. Heavy cannon Jabos would be a far better choice, at least thats how it seems to me from those who choose to HO my IL2s. 4 Hispanos would be prime.
Nothing more for me to say on this. Now that the one liner crowd has shown up.
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Im not defending nothing. And I could care less about whether or not front guns were disabled in F3 cause I never shoot like that, "except to try it in offline mode to see how easy it is". For all I know there are some attack/bombers that are easier to do it in then others.
My point is the JU-88 is not one of them. The thing has a single little 30 cal peashooter offset. The IL2 is also another one where'as its dumb to try it in. Maybey you can walk in rounds with deflection shots but does that really make it easier? When popping in and out of pilot/F3 is so easy? I have a Hat button on my throttle mapped in attack profile that allows me in and out of F3 with a flick of a finger so why would I want to shoot without a sight? With the airplane in the way of point of aim?
So I couldnt care less if foward guns are disabled in F3. Unlike Widewing I never use them that way, and If I did I wouldnt "use them that way" and then come here and say they should get rid of it. :huh "Obtuse indeed". Nor would I do it and then come here and use the example of my dweebery as reason to get rid of F3 all together. Like Shreck.
Actually before this thread popped up I didnt even know anyone was doing it.
BTW Shreck the reason I said IL2s were a poor choice for HO'ing, at least with the 37mms, is because the cannon have a slow ROF and at closing speeds of 500 to 700 mph+ "that" matters. Another thing is they are to heavy and slow to be very responsive to the stick. Another thing is their damage model isnt that much different then a heavy Jabos. Most of all in HOs cause their oil target is huge. Heavy cannon Jabos would be a far better choice, at least thats how it seems to me from those who choose to HO my IL2s. 4 Hispanos would be prime.
Nothing more for me to say on this. Now that the one liner crowd has shown up.
Hmm! IF it absolutely doesn't matter to you, and you don't use F3 then why post at all? Other than for arguments sake? <----Incidently, I'm fine with that also!
Vudak and I will have a good feel for what is up! You can be sure if I'm wrong I will own it! would you? :aok