Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rogwar on August 08, 2009, 01:16:02 PM
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PLEASE DO NOT POST ANYTHING ABOUT POLITICS, PARTIES, OR ELECTED OFFICIALS.
This is a serious crossroads the USA is going through right now. It would be interesting to hear from people in the countries where they have government-run health care.
What are your experiences?
Thank you for any input. Please do not bash anybody's response to the question.
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Bordering on dangerous ground, will the Skuzzmaster pull the thread, will he drop the hammer? We will know IN a short while.
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All I'm asking for are people's experiences with government-run health care in countries where they have such. There are a lot of people on here from around the world. It would be great to have info on what they have experienced under such a system.
Tell us about your experiences with doctors, hospitals, and the health care system.
Thanks very much for your contribution.
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Have you seen Michael Moore's Sicko ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2sFT7T0mCs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOZmvaFfjtk&feature=related
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Dude, this is nothing BUT politics. I strongly suggest you take it down if you have time before skuzzy nukes it and you.
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This is a medical topic.
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This is a medical topic.
Absolutely.
"Tell us about your experiences with doctors, hospitals, and the health care system."
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It's not politics, it's healthcare and economics.
The only reason, IMO, that France is an acceptable govt run healthcare, is the quality of doctors.
http://healthcare-economist.com/2008/04/14/health-care-around-the-world-france/
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My wife is a doc and she worked in the UK for about a year. In her experience, the docs work their required number of hours for the national health care system, and then spend another few hours each day working for private practice where they do procedures for people who despise the NHS or who are under-serviced, meaning that the govt has decided that their health problems are low priority so they either have to wait months/years for a procedure, or can't get it done at all.
As for the docs themselves, they feel that they're underpaid and many of them immigrate to the US where their salaries more than double due to supply/demand for their services.
Regarding quality of care, if you discard reports of excessive wait times and flat out refusal to provide treatment based on tables and charts that show average cost/benefit ratios for various problems and treatments, the care is probably reasonable. One example my wife ran into stands out though... Apparently women over age 60 there can't get breast cancer screening because, on average, if a 60 year old women has un-diagnosed breast cancer that metasticizes (ie. spreads to the whole body) followed by unsuccessful aggressive treatment, the patient will die a horribly painful death around the time they reach the average female lifespan anyhow. They match the cost of continued screening for women over 60, compared it to the cost of aggressive cancer treatment for those who get cancer over 60, and factored in fact that some women will die horrible deaths, and decided that it was cheaper to just not provide screening past age 60.
That's one example of the inevitable set of decisions that MUST be made under a "free" public health care system. Demand for a "free" good or service is infinite, so limits on services must be made. My problem with the way it gets done is that instead of the docs who go through a decade of training making the decisions, it's accountants and politicians making the decisions based on actuarial tables and re-election concerns.
Me, I'd rather let my doc make the choice. For "basic" health care like broken bones and flu shots, I'm 100% in favor for a system that makes that stuff available to everyone for an extremely low price. The problem is where to draw the line, and at what point people have to pay for their own care. Most people seem to want the line drawn really high, with the govt providing some very expensive treatments for "free". I would rather see the line drawn as low as possible with fixed costs to the hospitals and govt oversight to keep costs under control, then let supply/demand with govt regulation take care of the rest. Regulations? What regulations? Things like monitoring relationships between suppliers and doctors that lead some doctors or hospitals to do things like prescribe half-dose pills that must be taken 2 at a time, instead of full-dose pills that can be taken one at a time. And reining in the out-of-control legal expenses that ALL doctors face. I'm sorry, but my foot isn't worth 5 million dollars. No way, no how. If a hospital cut off the wrong foot, I'd expect compensation for lost future wages and free medical treatment for life to compensate, but a huge cash settlement is just retarded even though I'm in a career field that pretty much requires me to have 2 feet. So there must be regulation of hospital expenses and control of the insanely hostile legal environment in which hospitals and doctors operate.
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I feel this is a non-political question. All the OP would like to know is.. "how is healthcare for those in countries with a social healthcare system".
Good question... hopefully folks can answer without going off the topic. I'd be interested to know and thank anyone who posted their EXPERIENCES good or bad.
Thanks eagl good read.
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PLEASE DO NOT POST ANYTHING ABOUT POLITICS, PARTIES, OR ELECTED OFFICIALS.
This is a serious crossroads the USA is going through right now. It would be interesting to hear from people in the countries where they have government-run health care.
What are your experiences?
Thank you for any input. Please do not bash anybody's response to the question.
It works great here, but then we have the tax level and experience to deal with it. Not sure how it would work other places though.
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One aspect people aren't looking at is the fact that most other countries who have a universal or socialized health care system have significantly smaller populations with a base of people that pay a lot more taxes than we do here in the states.. Honestly, our tax payer base is smaller(per capita) than most other countries.. We literally pay people to stay home and have more kids and those families that do that really don't pay taxes at all (except sales tax where applicable)..
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Easy to fund a NHC in the US; have a national 4% gross receipts tax (we he have a Federal tax on gasoline) on all doctors (psychiatrists, chiros, dentists, etc.), 3% on all RNs & Psychologists, 2% on LPNs & LCSWs, 1% on Physical/Occupational/Speech Therapists with a private practice. If any of them takes a penny of Federal monies to go to school, they would owe 4 years part-time healthcare service to the Veteran's Administration; if they don't want to do it then they can payoff the amount they took plus an additional 1% tax on their gross receipts.
Why the VA you ask. the number of vets requiring health care is decreasing as they pass on (WWII/Korea/Vietnam account for the vast majority of those under VA treatment) and facilities once full now have many empty floors. there is a VA hospital in VA that once had six floors full of patients that now only has two floors of patients. The VA system is already in place and would be easier (legally & financially) to reconfigure than to start an entirely new organization.
Anyone else want my 'Easy button'; I'm quit finished with it for now.
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Germany has one of the highest population density within the European Union. In December 2005 the number of doctors was 373 per 100,000 inhabitants. Healthcare is funded by a statutory contribution system that ensures free healthcare for all via sickness funds. Insurance payments are based on a percentage of income, divided between employee and employer. About 14.5% of your income before tax goes into healthcare. Healthcare insurance in Germany is divided between statutory and private schemes.
The statutory health insurance occupies a central position in the Healthcare system in the Germany. About 90 % of the population are covered by the statutory health insurance which is compulsory for all who earn less than 4.050,00 € (in 2009) before tax. Private healthcare schemes can either provide to complete health service for those who opt out for the statutory scheme or top-up cover for those who remain within it.
In Germany, the provision of healthcare can be broadly separated into ambulatory and in patient sectors. Outpatient services supplied to the public are largely the responsibility of independent doctors practicing on a freelance basis under contract to the statutory health insurance. Doctors caring for patients who have sickfunds must be registered by law by the regional association of Statutory Health Insurance Physicians .
Hospitals in Germany are grouped into three main types:
* Public hospitals run by the local authorities, the towns and the states
* Voluntary non-profit making hospitals run by the churches or non-profit making organizations such as the German Red Cross
* Private Hospitals run as free commercial enterprises
Is it good or bad? Good thing is, that everyone is insured. So nobody is without "free" health care. But public healthcare only covers minimal treatment. So only that will be payed, what is necessary to make you able to work again. Everything else you want, so not basic medicine, must be covered by extra private insurance. If you are earning more then 4.050 € a month or your husband or wife has this income, you can leave the statutory health insurance. Then you can decide what kind of treatment you want. I pay for my health insurance (not statutory) about 210,- € a month, with a deductible of 1000,- € per year.
(sorry if something is hard to understand, but my English is not that good, that I know all the right terms)
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Thanks for the post, SirFrancis. Was simple enough for me to understand.
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Thanks for the post, SirFrancis. Was simple enough for me to understand.
Roger that SirFrancis! Thank you very much for the post. Great English!
In this thread I am wanting to hear from people outside of the USA that live in a country with socialized or government run health care. Please also feel free to respond if you are a US citizen like eagl and have first-hand experience with socialized medicine.
Thank you very much in advance for contributing. We want to hear the good and bad.
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There is nothing wrong with "National Basic Free Healthcare" augmented by supplemental Insurance for more "Advanced" needs.
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In NZ we have good public health care, sure it has it's issues. One people always raise is that it is always overloaded, which is somewhat true but I think here people do not stop to think about seeing doctor. I've noticed on some US reality TV (cops style shows) that some people hesitate to go to hospital after an injury - now this is a tv observation so it could be way wrong - but nobody thinks twice here.
I'd also note I get free private healthcare through my work, and I've yet to use it.
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As long as healthcare is run by those seeking profits (as it is in the US) it is not healthcare but business.
I did see the movie SICKO . Although I dislike Moore's rabble-rousing-for-profit movies he does hit on a few valid points: The fact that the US health system is integrated into profits and market shares of insurance and drug companies and the how these companies have so much lobbying power that they have dug the avg. american citizen into a hole where they must spend most of their income on health related costs (medications/insurance) and where they must 'take it in the arse' in their jobs because said jobs are the only cost effective way of securing the health insurance (regardless of how ineffective that insurance is as most claims are denied).
I can only compare the US system to that of my native country of Colombia. There the health care system is half-private and half-state run. In short, the laws require all private health care institutions and insurers to provide the services required. It is not a perfect system but to give you an idea... my mother had been perfectly healthy until 8 years ago. She has been living in the US for 10+ years and is a US citizen.
Her health problem required her to have MRI / x-ray and a whole suite of tests to determine her treatment not to mention the surgery and the medicines for her recovery.
US insurance? The one that we had been paying for years and practically never used.. the one that should by all legality have covered the bulk of the costs of these tests and treatments not to mention the surgery? DENIED. Reason: they did not think there was a reason to run those tests nor did they agree that the surgery was needed. If we wanted to do all that it would have to come from our own pocket. We're talking 30k+ dollars here.
Time was very critical and even the doctor advised us that the insurance companies would just give us the run-around and never pay anything.
The next morning my mother was on a plane to Colombia where she had all those tests done & covered by her insurance in Colombia... surgery was performed and recovery was quick.
Now, you tell me folks that cancer is not something you fuk around with yet these stunninghunks in the insurance company wanted my mother to just sit there until it was too late. The surgery was the REMOVAL of it, the tests needed were to LOCATE the cancer and determine its type.
It's just shameful that a US citizen has to go to a foreign country.. a 3rd world country no less... to receive life saving treatment... and even more shameful that the insurance covered almost every cost where the US insurance denied every single cent.
So, like I said, as long as its BUSINESS the US will not have health care. All it will have are the rich fuks sipping wine on top of the pile of corpses they denied the services to. All for money.
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Ex cellant post :oak
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Twenty years ago I was stationed in Germany, most of my dependent heelth care was "on the Economy" meaning the we were sent to the local German doctors for thier needs. We found the local Doctors and care to be unfailingly professional adaquete.
Regards,
Kevin
Germany has one of the highest population density within the European Union. In December 2005 the number of doctors was 373 per 100,000 inhabitants. Healthcare is funded by a statutory contribution system that ensures free healthcare for all via sickness funds. Insurance payments are based on a percentage of income, divided between employee and employer. About 14.5% of your income before tax goes into healthcare. Healthcare insurance in Germany is divided between statutory and private schemes.
The statutory health insurance occupies a central position in the Healthcare system in the Germany. About 90 % of the population are covered by the statutory health insurance which is compulsory for all who earn less than 4.050,00 € (in 2009) before tax. Private healthcare schemes can either provide to complete health service for those who opt out for the statutory scheme or top-up cover for those who remain within it.
In Germany, the provision of healthcare can be broadly separated into ambulatory and in patient sectors. Outpatient services supplied to the public are largely the responsibility of independent doctors practicing on a freelance basis under contract to the statutory health insurance. Doctors caring for patients who have sickfunds must be registered by law by the regional association of Statutory Health Insurance Physicians .
Hospitals in Germany are grouped into three main types:
* Public hospitals run by the local authorities, the towns and the states
* Voluntary non-profit making hospitals run by the churches or non-profit making organizations such as the German Red Cross
* Private Hospitals run as free commercial enterprises
Is it good or bad? Good thing is, that everyone is insured. So nobody is without "free" health care. But public healthcare only covers minimal treatment. So only that will be payed, what is necessary to make you able to work again. Everything else you want, so not basic medicine, must be covered by extra private insurance. If you are earning more then 4.050 € a month or your husband or wife has this income, you can leave the statutory health insurance. Then you can decide what kind of treatment you want. I pay for my health insurance (not statutory) about 210,- € a month, with a deductible of 1000,- € per year.
(sorry if something is hard to understand, but my English is not that good, that I know all the right terms)
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I live in Canada for 10 years, immigrating from Romania, both with government healthcare.
2 years ago,my mother was sick, i went to Romania found an good doctor paid him 3000$,+the nurses, blood,drugs, she was operated without waiting, but was cancer , she passed away 3 months later. Thx God here in Canada i didn't need serious care, but my brother has some problems was booked by his family doctor in March to see a specialist , his appointment was set for this week!!! The difference between this 2 countries : in Romania if you have some $$, you'll get assistance in time, in Canada you won't, maybe if you can afford to spend big $$. Last year i had an painfull abscess, big like an apple , i went to my family doctor to fix me, he sent me to Emergency Hospital here in Windsor,Ontario ,they kept me in waiting room 7-8 hours, after a nurse seen me, i've been told this is not emergency. Believe me or not, i came home , read on internet about it , i did cut it open myself and got some antibiotics, 2nd day i was like new.
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Last year i had an painfull abscess, big like an apple , i went to my family doctor to fix me, he sent me to Emergency Hospital here in Windsor,Ontario ,they kept me in waiting room 7-8 hours, after a nurse seen me, i've been told this is not emergency. Believe me or not, i came home , read on internet about it , i did cut it open myself and got some antibiotics, 2nd day i was like new.
I am struggling to keep politics out of this, but this is what our leaders will be making us deal with- complete rationing of care, long waiting lines, no availability of doctors, etc.
Great post, G!
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Last year i had an painfull abscess, big like an apple , i went to my family doctor to fix me, he sent me to Emergency Hospital here in Windsor,Ontario ,they kept me in waiting room 7-8 hours, after a nurse seen me, i've been told this is not emergency. Believe me or not, i came home , read on internet about it , i did cut it open myself and got some antibiotics, 2nd day i was like new.
Same thing happens in the US...
I remember when my sister broke her arm was 4-5 we sat in the lobby for hours (hard to remember the exact amount of time because I was young and everything seems so long, it seemed like 12 hours or something lol... but I think it was 2-3 hours?) and then even longer before she got any actual care.
This was a little girl with a broken arm mind you....
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Thanks for all the feedback so far from people with personal experiences to share regarding government-run health care in other countries.
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Health, in a first world country should be a right, not a privilege. It should not also be based on shareholders and profit margins.
The United States has the most expensive health care system in the world, bar none. Yet that system ranks 37th in overall care, and we rank 50th in lifespan (Dead last in industrialized nations).. If you see nothing wrong with this, you need a better prescription. We're getting ripped off, period.
There should be options for those who have the means for "better" insurance. But, there should also be something that can cover those who need it, at the base level. Remember, it is a public OPTION being discussed.
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Health, in a first world country should be a right, not a privilege. It should not also be based on shareholders and profit margins.
The United States has the most expensive health care system in the world, bar none. Yet that system ranks 37th in overall care, and we rank 50th in lifespan (Dead last in industrialized nations).. If you see nothing wrong with this, you need a better prescription. We're getting ripped off, period.
There should be options for those who have the means for "better" insurance. But, there should also be something that can cover those who need it, at the base level. Remember, it is a public OPTION being discussed.
What? I agree with Moray for a change? :huh :D
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I don't want to start my own thread, or ruin this one, but i want to add my 2c:
In principle do not believe government programs are the answers to problems, rather they are often the source. I believe our healthcare system has flaws, but I believe a free market solution is far preferable to a government solution. It should not be the role of federal government to provide healthcare. I have worked in the industry and can see from experience with Medicare and Medicaid that government solutions are not more efficient or effective, but quite the opposite.
I don't believe we have a right to healthcare any more than we have a right to HDTV, sports cars, or golf club memberships. What we have a right to is our exercise of our consumer power in a free market system... remember that one kids... you're not entitled to everything you want or think you should have, but you are entitled to the opportunity to acquire what you want in a free market. Government "options" are disruptors to a functioning free market.
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For now, I don't worry about possible "cost effectiveness" problems with a future NHC system. As it stands, my health insurance is nearly worthless already. I have to pay the first $5,000 each year. I understand cancer and heart disease don't exactly have a minimum age, but as a 25 year-old white collar worker, the most likely way I'll rack up more than $5,000 any time soon would be in a car crash, and I'm already paying a hefty premium to make sure I'm beyond covered in that event.
At first glance it seems like NHC, even if limited to only the basics of basics, would do me a world of good. But I have to weigh this against the question of who is going to pay for it? I might for the moment be a pleb, but I rely on the patrician for my income. If the rich don't have enough disposable income, I don't have a job. Further, right now I can afford to save towards "something better." If my taxes go up too much (or I lose too much work), will I be able to in the future?
I define "health" as more than just doctors and medicine. I also think of living in a safe place, and having my kids one day grow up with a decent school system. I just hope whatever course we take doesn't lessen the chance of those things happening, but I'm not optimistic.
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The health system in the UK is not free I pay for it.
It is worth every penny, I pay a pitence out of my wages for it.
Everyone complains about the health service here because they are idiots.
The system works,US private health companies have been bullying succesive governments for years to privatise it, they are currently using US private companies to dismantle the social security system.
A senior member of parliament has already resigned over having shares with a US company that is trying to forcing Id cards on us.
Health care for all in US is not going to happen,rich corporate interests are not going to lose money.
There are a lot of good things about US but not your health systems.
It's not right making money out of suffering.
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If your car is broken it cost's you to fix.
If you cannot afford to fix it walk.
A person who is ill cost money to cure.
If you cannot afford the bill dig a 6 foot hole and lie in it.
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I live in one of those countries where we have government run health care.
Works okay.
Some branches are private though, but the basics are government-run.
It is the most expensive ministry as well as the toughest one to run. And a very unpopular job being the minister of it.
In my area the system works excellently. Superbly if anything.
So, I'm good with it.
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hurrah!
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Yet that system ranks 37th in overall care, and we rank 50th in lifespan (Dead last in industrialized nations)..
Yeah, and we also have a bunch of food blisters living at McDonalds while they puff away on Marlboro Reds. Its no coincidence that the 2 largest demographics in the VA Hospital system are diabetics and vets with emphazema. Don't make the mistake of comparing the U.S. to a country like Norway, where most people live a healthier lifestyle.
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Don't make the mistake of comparing the U.S. to a country like Norway, where most people live a healthier lifestyle.
QFT.
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< Australian. Public health care system very much like Germany's by the sound of SirFrance's post.
Free basic cover:
It has benefits....eg: Lose your job? Can't afford your health insurance for 6 months? Get hit by a car? You'll still be looked after.
But there are people who leach the system.
All too often do you see idiots in the ER because it's free to be seen by a doctor there.
Introducing a charge for obvious abuse of this could a way to escape this.
The last time I was in an ER I saw a woman with a baby that had a fever. The baby dropped its pacifier on the floor at the triage desk (where there was dirt and blood on the floor from the drunk guy who was standing there before her). The stupid cow just picked it up and put it straight back in the baby's mouth.
NO WONDER THE BABY HAS A FEVER YOU RETARD!
So... you get peasants and scammers clogging up ERs.
You'd be stupid not to have private health insurance, though.
A successful public health system for a population of 300 million will be a monumental challenge and I just hope that your government pays very, very close attention to what every other country has done and learns from their successes and mistakes.
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One obvious benefit of "free" (it's not free because SOMEONE gets stuck with the bill, but dumb people like to think anything coming from the govt is free) health care is that it would halt some of the biggest abuses in the US. We have the same problem with ERs crowded with people who can't afford any kind of care, including every illegal immigrant in the country who uses the ER as their primary care provider. A national basic health care system would formally account for those people who are currently bleeding hospitals dry, raising costs for everyone else and forcing ER closures everywhere there are large illegal immigrant populations.
That would be a good side benefit IMHO. Quit making the hospitals pay for govt mis-handling of a whole range of social and legal problems that lead to hospital ERs having to do a lot of work and deal with huge expenses without any compensation. If the govt is going to force hospitals to see anyone who shows up in the ER (and allow into the country a huge un-insurable non-citizen migrant labor population), they need to pay for it and right now they don't.
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I caught bronchitis on an airplane to France when I was 16. Because I was in a rural area, the doctor came to visit me, promptly, instead of me visiting him, twice. I walked to the village pharmacist, gave them the doctors note, and received the prescribed medication without paying a penny. This was in 1995.
I have a Japanese friend and he has a very favorable opinion of health-care in Japan, where there is both private and public insurance.
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If we're going to provide limited free health care to visitors to the US, I think there ought to be a small fee added on to the cost of the tourist visa or whatever program they're using to come here. It wouldn't have to be much, a couple of bucks ought to do it and be a reasonable buy-in to insure non-citizen visitors during a brief visit. The trick will be getting the fee sent to the health care program and not diverted to other govt spending.
Others visiting the US for a longer time ought to pay into the system if they expect to get any services. If they have the money to travel here or are coming here for a job, they certainly ought to have enough money to buy into a national health care insurance fund.
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Germany has one of the highest population density within the European Union. In December 2005 the number of doctors was 373 per 100,000 inhabitants. Healthcare is funded by a statutory contribution system that ensures free healthcare for all via sickness funds. Insurance payments are based on a percentage of income, divided between employee and employer. About 14.5% of your income before tax goes into healthcare. Healthcare insurance in Germany is divided between statutory and private schemes.
The statutory health insurance occupies a central position in the Healthcare system in the Germany. About 90 % of the population are covered by the statutory health insurance which is compulsory for all who earn less than 4.050,00 € (in 2009) before tax. Private healthcare schemes can either provide to complete health service for those who opt out for the statutory scheme or top-up cover for those who remain within it.
In Germany, the provision of healthcare can be broadly separated into ambulatory and in patient sectors. Outpatient services supplied to the public are largely the responsibility of independent doctors practicing on a freelance basis under contract to the statutory health insurance. Doctors caring for patients who have sickfunds must be registered by law by the regional association of Statutory Health Insurance Physicians .
Hospitals in Germany are grouped into three main types:
* Public hospitals run by the local authorities, the towns and the states
* Voluntary non-profit making hospitals run by the churches or non-profit making organizations such as the German Red Cross
* Private Hospitals run as free commercial enterprises
Is it good or bad? Good thing is, that everyone is insured. So nobody is without "free" health care. But public healthcare only covers minimal treatment. So only that will be payed, what is necessary to make you able to work again. Everything else you want, so not basic medicine, must be covered by extra private insurance. If you are earning more then 4.050 € a month or your husband or wife has this income, you can leave the statutory health insurance. Then you can decide what kind of treatment you want. I pay for my health insurance (not statutory) about 210,- € a month, with a deductible of 1000,- € per year.
(sorry if something is hard to understand, but my English is not that good, that I know all the right terms)
Thank you for your post. Your post was easy to read and understand.
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I don't believe we have a right to healthcare any more than we have a right to HDTV, sports cars, or golf club memberships. What we have a right to is our exercise of our consumer power in a free market system... remember that one kids... you're not entitled to everything you want or think you should have, but you are entitled to the opportunity to acquire what you want in a free market. Government "options" are disruptors to a functioning free market.
I expect you to deny your social security when you retire then, if this is how you truly feel. Nobody will be making you take that money.
To compare one's health to an HDTV..... that is disgusting.
Entitlement? At the base level we disagree, because I feel that "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" is more important. If one cannot have their health, they cannot have any of those.
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If you need to send a parcel from California to Maine, would you use US postal services or FedEx ? The Health care it's a bit different ,but most of the government controlled services are like making a blood transfusion from your left to your right arm, but spilling half of it during process.
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What is this nonsense about free health care in the UK it is not free we pay for it through national insurance when we get our monthly salary.
I am not a liberal if you are a illegal you should be booted, if you are a drug addict you should shot and if you do not want to work you should be birched. :x
UK health service is not free i pay for it and scum who don't contribute to it is sad, we pay for helping those in our society who require help :aok
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With the gov't record and the future projections for medicare and social security, do we really want the gov't handling our medical care?
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Entitlement? At the base level we disagree, because I feel that "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" is more important. If one cannot have their health, they cannot have any of those.
Americans have the right to bear arms but I don't see the government buying everyone a gun.
Americans have the right to freedom of religion but I don't see the government building everyone a church.
Americans have the right to freedom of assembly but I don't see the government buying everyone a car so we can attend rallies.
If you put health care under "Life, Liberty and the Persuit of Happyness" then whay not free food for everyone - can't live without food. Why not free housing for everyone - can't live or be happy without shelter. And there is no way I can ever acheive the right of "Happiness" without the government providing me with 2 young ladies to travel with me on a 6 month round the world cruise (paid for, of course, with your tax dollar).
From your own statement it's clear you have no idea what a "Right" is and what it means to have rights. Unfortunately you're not in that boat alone. Far to many think that way and it's going to spell disaster for everyone.
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Moray,
You know just as well as I do that the question is not about "rights", it's about people who share your thoughts placing an obligation on ME to pay for someone else's health care. The constitution does not guarantee anyone the right to have others take care of them or pay for their life/liberty/happiness. That's an invented extrapolation from the guaranteed rights.
That said, there is value inherent in convincing people that it is a good thing to help out those in need. The barrier to making any progress however is that the "far left liberals" (for lack of any better description of people who want wage-earners to pay for people who want stuff they haven't earned) are so intent on forcing everyone to pay for universal health care that even reasonable people who would like to help out are violently opposed to those proposals. A solution that offers basic care to everyone yet does not turn wage earners into slaves for those who demand free stuff has not, and probably will not, be proposed. Ever.
You and people like you demand that the compensation I receive for my work be diverted to those who cannot pay for their own health care, yet I am to have no say in how much I give away, nor do I have a voice in saying what sort of services ought to be "free". This is because I am a reasonable person, and in the US the reasonable people do not have a voice. If they state their opinion, they are mercilessly villified by both extremes in the debate. The left-wingers call me a heartless, selfish, evil person, and the right-wingers call me a commie who is in cahoots with either the drug companies or the left-wing, take your pick.
So nothing will be done so long as the rhetoric is out of control, and this is why the current deliberations on US national health care are being done behind closed doors instead of out in the open.
Well, that's probably too close to political discussion but we'll see. It touches on the reality behind free health care, the fact that one group of people are forced to pay for goods/services given to another group. And demand for such "free" goods/services is quite literally infinite.
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Moray,
You know just as well as I do that the question is not about "rights", it's about people who share your thoughts placing an obligation on ME to pay for someone else's health care. The constitution does not guarantee anyone the right to have others take care of them or pay for their life/liberty/happiness. That's an invented extrapolation from the guaranteed rights.
That said, there is value inherent in convincing people that it is a good thing to help out those in need. The barrier to making any progress however is that the "far left liberals" (for lack of any better description of people who want wage-earners to pay for people who want stuff they haven't earned) are so intent on forcing everyone to pay for universal health care that even reasonable people who would like to help out are violently opposed to those proposals. A solution that offers basic care to everyone yet does not turn wage earners into slaves for those who demand free stuff has not, and probably will not, be proposed. Ever.
You and people like you demand that the compensation I receive for my work be diverted to those who cannot pay for their own health care, yet I am to have no say in how much I give away, nor do I have a voice in saying what sort of services ought to be "free". This is because I am a reasonable person, and in the US the reasonable people do not have a voice. If they state their opinion, they are mercilessly villified by both extremes in the debate. The left-wingers call me a heartless, selfish, evil person, and the right-wingers call me a commie who is in cahoots with either the drug companies or the left-wing, take your pick.
So nothing will be done so long as the rhetoric is out of control, and this is why the current deliberations on US national health care are being done behind closed doors instead of out in the open.
Well, that's probably too close to political discussion but we'll see. It touches on the reality behind free health care, the fact that one group of people are forced to pay for goods/services given to another group. And demand for such "free" goods/services is quite literally infinite.
Well said Eagl, well said.
Sadly, some lose sight of the fact that "the government" doesn't buy anything, doesn't pay for anything, it is the taxpayer, the average working citizen who pays for the handouts, the freebies, the pork barrel projects.
We work to earn money to live, to feed our families, and with any left over, to pursue happiness. The gov't just takes away from us what we have worked to earn. Maybe we don't care to support those who haven't worked, haven't struggled to achieve an education. We certainly have a right to voice an opinion, one of the rights our forefathers fought, bled and died for was representation in matters of taxation.
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Moray,
You know just as well as I do that the question is not about "rights", it's about people who share your thoughts placing an obligation on ME to pay for someone else's health care. The constitution does not guarantee anyone the right to have others take care of them or pay for their life/liberty/happiness. That's an invented extrapolation from the guaranteed rights.
That said, there is value inherent in convincing people that it is a good thing to help out those in need. The barrier to making any progress however is that the "far left liberals" (for lack of any better description of people who want wage-earners to pay for people who want stuff they haven't earned) are so intent on forcing everyone to pay for universal health care that even reasonable people who would like to help out are violently opposed to those proposals. A solution that offers basic care to everyone yet does not turn wage earners into slaves for those who demand free stuff has not, and probably will not, be proposed. Ever.
You and people like you demand that the compensation I receive for my work be diverted to those who cannot pay for their own health care, yet I am to have no say in how much I give away, nor do I have a voice in saying what sort of services ought to be "free". This is because I am a reasonable person, and in the US the reasonable people do not have a voice. If they state their opinion, they are mercilessly villified by both extremes in the debate. The left-wingers call me a heartless, selfish, evil person, and the right-wingers call me a commie who is in cahoots with either the drug companies or the left-wing, take your pick.
So nothing will be done so long as the rhetoric is out of control, and this is why the current deliberations on US national health care are being done behind closed doors instead of out in the open.
Well, that's probably too close to political discussion but we'll see. It touches on the reality behind free health care, the fact that one group of people are forced to pay for goods/services given to another group. And demand for such "free" goods/services is quite literally infinite.
Eagl, I truly do not disagree with what you have posted. In fact, I agree with most all of it. I am not one of those "far lefters" that this board vilifies to such extreme. I simply feel that, at this point, the privatized health care system in this nation is making decisions for this country already, and those particular decisions are based upon shareholders and balance sheets, not my elected representation. I don't see health as a free hand out, though. I'm sorry, I see it as a right, like basic K-12 education. It may not be written into the constitution, but it is still a right. There is a minimum standard that should be applied to citizenry and citizenship. As it stands, your position would be not to back military spending as well, because defense would then be a "freebie" which I enjoy. Your position rests that it is the individual's responsibility for his own.... well, everything. Let's keep it going ad infinitum...it's my responsibility to provide for my own roads and maintenance etc etc.... Your position becomes untenable rather quickly. Government exists for and by the people, otherwise lets all go back to the caves.
Can the government system do better? I don't know, but at least I'm not just a number then. I still have the power of my vote, and if it fails miserably, people will get elected to change it. As it stands now, get really sick with any insurance carrier and they'll find any reason to drop you on the spot, if they figure they can't recoup the expense of your care (read: you're too old or too sick to effectively repay it) . And from there you have absolutely no recourse, but debt and bankruptcy. You can't get the CEO of CIGNA removed with a public vote. I mean, look at France. Seriously. Number 1 in Healthcare.... with a strong movement by the people that says... "Screw up and you're out of office. End of story" Do you think those two things are coincidence?
It's on both sides of the issue, research as well.
Why do you think cancer research is at a standstill? It is because they make 3-5 times the money just keeping you alive and treating you, no matter what suffering, than they would to find a "cure". As someone in research, I know for a fact they are funneling most all research grants into simply treating the disease, rather than eradicating it in a causal way.
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If we continue down the road we are traveling, many are going to choose the handout road. Soon, you can choose not to work, but given money to live on, food stamps for food, free health care. Why work? Too many are choosing that path now, lets not make it more enticing and rewarding.
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I expect you to deny your social security when you retire then, if this is how you truly feel. Nobody will be making you take that money.
I've heard this argument before, but I was never given a choice in the matter, so, I may be willing to deny it, as long as the government is willing to refund me all the money I was forced to pay into that system plus interest.
Where does it stop? Since people can't be healthy without nutritous food, then that needs to be provided as well, and how can anyone be healthy without good housing, so we need to give everyone that too.
It's a slippery slope right into marxism.
As far as the assurances that "if you are happy with your health care you can keep it."
THAT IS A LIE!! You can't keep what is no longer available.
How many employers are going to continue to offer health care benefits once they are able to dump everyone onto the "public option"?
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If I have a right to happiness, and I feel the only way I can be happy is to have the gov't give me a fully restored P51, isn't it my right to a P51? :rofl :aok
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Reminds me of a fellow teacher at the high school I work for. Her husband has been unemployed for about a year. His idea for looking for a job is to sit on his bellybutton all day and not do anything. They came up with the idea to get pregnant (husband no job remember). Myself and another coworker would ask him every time he stopped by the school, "how's the job hunt going?" His reply was always he had better things to do (no exaggeration).
A few months ago he started a part-time job working one day a week. His third day of work he took off to go to the wife's baby shower, and then quit the next week saying he didn't like the boss. He received an hourly wage on the books.
Their solution, his wife quit after her first year of teaching. They decided that government handouts were better than either of them having a job. Did I mention she had full medical and dental as a teacher for her family. Moral of the story, if people get handouts what's the point of being a productive member of society.
If people want government run health care, have them opt-in to it. They can give a portion of their pay check to the government before taxes.
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Moray,
Realize you're buying into the vast medical conspiracy theory. My wife is a doc and here primary concern is not how much money she's getting paid, it is how she can cover her butt to not get sued. I think the docs aren't out to rip everyone off, rather it's the opposite. They are running scared. Yea some are flat out liars and thieves (and some are in cahoots with the lawyers who exist for no reason but to sue other doctors) but I think most would like to do their job and try to help people without risking being sued. They can't do ANYTHING without covering their butts, and that is why you see so many "unnecessary" studies, unnecessary prescriptions, and what sometimes seems to be a rushed attempt to pigeon-hole a patient as having a particular known disease or problem so they can avoid the legal liability of trying to actually treat the patient instead of following a checklist.
The vast conspiracy you speak of probalby exists in the world of insurance and pill pushers, but it certainly doesn't exist with most doctors or hospitals. They're running scared and the last thing we need is to make things worse by arbitrary salary caps (for example).
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what have you done to spiderman :O
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what have you done to spiderman :O
He's a happy happy guy. Loves dancing even though he's not very good at it. Most people don't know that.
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Eagl,
I think the whole issue is that one has to choose either of 2 options. One being a private company which is in the race for profits ... or the government which is in the race because it was ordered to.
In a gov. run system, there is the inevitable abuse of the system by both the people (plenty of examples of this in this thread already) and by the gov. officials (corruption). However, a gov. run system mandates equality of services to society by LAW.
In a privately run system, the people do not have the protection of the law and are completely at the mercy of an organization who'se sole purpose is to maximize profits. Business 101 : maximize profits by minimizing costs. Costs in a healthcare system means simply NOT providing the service yet taking payment for it. Sound familiar?
Its exactly what Cigna/humana/etc companies do and they do post record profits each year. And, since those companies make you sign documents releasing them of any wrongdoing (or else you don't get approved for their service) they can literally deny you medical treatment to save your life because it cuts into their profit margins. In a privately run system, the people become numbers and have no voice nor options (all healthcare providers are the same and fancy that, they're owned by the same investors too!).
Personally, I think that there should be two parallel yet separate healthcare systems in the US:
1- gov.- run healthcare system in the US which should match France's or the UK's .. but be available only to US citizens/nationals & their immediate family (parents/kids as long as they are US residents not uncles/etc should the parents/kids not be US citizens yet). Think of it as a Veteran's healthcare system but expanded to all citizens.
2- Privately owned healthcare similar to what is available now but with much stronger regulations and laws mandating these companies that the health of their clients is THEIR legal responsibility if they are under their system.
This would clearly define the responsibility of the gov. and that of the private companies when it comes to healthcare. non-citizens/nationals can choose to have a US company-based health insurance or use insurance from their country of origin.
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I expect you to deny your social security when you retire then, if this is how you truly feel. Nobody will be making you take that money.
If even today I were given the option to opt out of the program I would. But, I have been compelled to pay in my entire adult life. As people continue to live longer, they continue to raise the age of eligablility. Although I know I'll never get all of the money out of SS that I've put in, you can bet the farm that I'll damn well try.
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I don't need the government for anything. They can stay out of my business and life. It's already been proven that congress can't run a post office,cafeteria or the DMV. Does anyone really believe they can run our medical care? :rolleyes:
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My wife is a doc and here primary concern is not how much money she's getting paid, it is how she can cover her butt to not get sued.
This is a key point that is being absolutely ignored by those that are pushing this bill. Malpractice reform has to be part of the solution.
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LOL,
They can take our Freedom, We'll take it back.
spammer (I'm not looking forward to be counseled on my end of life decisions by the Government.)
Life is a gift.
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I guess we could not just get feedback from people in other countries and leave it at that....
:mad:
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I guess we could not just get feedback from people in other countries and leave it at that....
:mad:
You did really believe that this would have been possible here?
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You did really believe that this would have been possible here?
No...lol. :x
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Well, at least so far it's been civil and educational...
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Well, at least so far it's been civil and educational...
but still political :)
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Well I think it sucks, because when I went up to canada I had to shell out $11 a pack. Just INcase you were wondering, I did quit smoking.
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In Spain (or Catalonia at least) even illegal aliens have a sanitary card, they are going to be treated anyhow, so it's better that they have it. As I understand it, their sons at the same odds of being operated by the Government Da vinci robots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Vinci_Surgical_System) than anyone else (but politicians sons I guess).
You can't opt-out of government health care, althought many people pay for private insurance too.
In general, everybody is fond of the health system we have. I don't know if it's completely sustainable though. Once I read an interview with the head (http://www.bcrfcure.org/action_0708grantees_baselga.html) of oncology at a major hospital in Barcelona. He said, IIRC, that cancer treatments are "too expensive", "too" as in "unsustainably". That left me worried of course. For the time being the population keeps getting the best drugs for cancer, though. The public concern is not about quality, only wait time for some issues. However...
2 years ago,my mother was sick, i went to Romania found an good doctor paid him 3000$,+the nurses, blood,drugs, she was operated without waiting, but was cancer , she passed away 3 months later. Thx God here in Canada i didn't need serious care, but my brother has some problems was booked by his family doctor in March to see a specialist , his appointment was set for this week!!! The difference between this 2 countries : in Romania if you have some $$, you'll get assistance in time, in Canada you won't, maybe if you can afford to spend big $$
This is comparing apples to oranges because if you are suspected to have cancer you get urgent treatment, here, and I hope in Canada.
I always wondered what happens in the USA if you are poor need an expensive treatment, or chronical expensive treatment. Do you get a huge debt and but get treated or you just don't get treated and die? Are there instances when people die because they cannot afford it? When I read stories of health care + USA (for example in this forum) I feel a knot in the stomach.
Good health for all.
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I always wondered what happens in the USA if you are poor need an expensive treatment, or chronical expensive treatment. Do you get a huge debt and but get treated or you just don't get treated and die? Are there instances when people die because they cannot afford it? When I read stories of health care + USA (for example in this forum) I feel a knot in the stomach.
Good health for all.
Well where I am at, if you cannnot afford the treatment, it can be written off as charity.