Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: onan on August 26, 2009, 05:31:17 AM
-
Hi guys.
Noob question on terms.
Can you tell me what a rope is? I heard one guy say "setting up a rope" and another say
"setting a fake rope".
Have been flying P47-D-11
Thanks
-
There's lots of ways to set it up, but a rope is where you get the bandit to stall out beneath you, and then you drop down and kill him. You've probably done this without knowing its name.
The basic idea is to give the impression that your pursuer has enough energy to follow you into a climb and shoot you. Sometimes he will have enough energy to get close, but the extremely low speed at the end of a vertical climb should leave him unable to aim. At the top of your own climb, nose high, you do a quick 180 about 1000 yards above the bandit, sometimes back off the throttle or use some flaps (it all depends on the airfcraft and situation), and shoot him dead while he's floundering.
I'm not clear on what a fake rope is.
-
A fake rope sounds like you go up, but with no intention to kill the con. I'm not sure why anyone would wish to do that.
-
a rope is a rope. Usually setting up a con for your wingman to kill. if you climb up straight make sure the enemy cannot catch you .
A fake rope i would say is more disguising the amount of energy you really have by spiral climbing or just not climbing straight up vertical. Basically encouraging the enemy con to come up and have a go when you then pull up even higher and then roll in for the kill.
-
Back in the olden (Air Warrior) days we used to use the more complete name "Rope a dope". The term has become abbreviated to "rope".
-Peabody-
-
There's lots of ways to set it up, but a rope is where you get the bandit to stall out beneath you, and then you drop down and kill him. You've probably done this without knowing its name.
The basic idea is to give the impression that your pursuer has enough energy to follow you into a climb and shoot you. Sometimes he will have enough energy to get close, but the extremely low speed at the end of a vertical climb should leave him unable to aim. At the top of your own climb, nose high, you do a quick 180 about 1000 yards above the bandit, sometimes back off the throttle or use some flaps (it all depends on the airfcraft and situation), and shoot him dead while he's floundering.
I'm not clear on what a fake rope is.
and i think the key is to let him close enough to think he has a shot at you........
-
Thanks for the info'. :aok
I've been killed many times for following guys up, thinking I can get guns on.
-
judging your 'E' state and your enemies will take awhile,
Planes like the niki, a6m5, ki84 , spit 16 can all climb up vertically really well so if your flying a fat bellybutton jug or pony you have to be very careful.
Be sure your hauling some serious speed advantage before going vertical with any of the above
-
judging your 'E' state and your enemies will take awhile,
Planes like the niki, a6m5, ki84 , spit 16 can all climb up vertically really well so if your flying a fat bellybutton jug or pony you have to be very careful.
Be sure your hauling some serious speed advantage before going vertical with any of the above
VS MY P38J, i've had all but the 84 drop before i did. the key is to not misjudge their speed. i've never fought an 84 yet.
i tend to keep my eye on them, and if i see em lift their nose for a shot, i pull a little steeper, forcing them to do the same....this is what generally seems to screw em up.
-
VS MY P38J, i've had all but the 84 drop before i did. the key is to not misjudge their speed. i've never fought an 84 yet.
i tend to keep my eye on them, and if i see em lift their nose for a shot, i pull a little steeper, forcing them to do the same....this is what generally seems to screw em up.
yea i forgot to mention the B38 two engines = cheating. :D
-
yea i forgot to mention the B38 two engines = cheating. :D
:rofl :rofl
it's not "cheating". it's "improvising" :aok
i should add though, that should you use the 38, and misjudge their speed.....you're a REALLY large target haningin up in front of them. :noid
-
I have huge trouble capitalizing on the 38's vertical capabilities. On defense, I can't really get anything done. I dive and run for a bit and when i try to reverse while they're still behind me I have to pull something like a spiral climb. Is there anything that can make my spiral climb better if the enemy has only slightly less E?
It seems to be the only maneuver that can just work against Spitfire VIII/IX/XVI in particular, though I still can't really catch the VIII/IX especially. I don't know whether it's a matter of spilling all mys speed quickly in the spiral or making them somehow lose some E before I initiate the climb...
-
It seems to be the only maneuver that can just work against Spitfire VIII/IX/XVI in particular, though I still can't really catch the VIII/IX especially. I don't know whether it's a matter of spilling all mys speed quickly in the spiral or making them somehow lose some E before I initiate the climb...
Trying to outclimb a Spit VIII or XVI is not going to end well. Heck, I've had trouble out climbing those two planes in the 109K-4. I wouldn't even consider it in the P-38, unless you're talking about starting with significantly more energy.
The way to beat the Spitfires in the P-38 is to get the fight as slow as possible. You want to make the fight a contest over who can best minimize their forward velocity, because that is one way in which the P-38s are clearly superior to the Spitfires.
For the sake of comparison:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=18&p2=86&pw=1>ype=2)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=18&p2=85&pw=1>ype=2)
-
I love a good rope! Against the hordes, this is a quite effective culling tool
-
Ah thanks Anaxogoras. Perhaps it is more of a matter of learning how to have the 38 as a second skin; having a better feel for its handling qualities because I still feel like I lose control every now and then at really slow speeds.
-
Ah thanks Anaxogoras. Perhaps it is more of a matter of learning how to have the 38 as a second skin; having a better feel for its handling qualities because I still feel like I lose control every now and then at really slow speeds.
I don't fly the 38 often, but I also lose control of it at very low speeds now and then. ;)
-
I don't fly the 38 often, but I also lose control of it at very low speeds now and then. ;)
to me, she's a handfull at really low speeds, but i've found that with careful flap application, and throttle management, she will handle surprisingly well there too.,
-
I can confidently say one thing, though.
As itchy as the 38 is at low speeds, it doesn't feel anywhere near as bad as the Spitfires or Corsairs. Something I still have to learn to use to my advantage.
Another weird thing is, flying at such slow speeds, it should make perfect sense to use the P-38's vertical prowess because few fighters will stay with the 38 at low speeds, let alone in the vertical. Though, I still find myself stalling and out of moves.
Any good low speed/vertical maneuvers, gentlemen?
-
I can confidently say one thing, though.
As itchy as the 38 is at low speeds, it doesn't feel anywhere near as bad as the Spitfires or Corsairs. Something I still have to learn to use to my advantage.
Another weird thing is, flying at such slow speeds, it should make perfect sense to use the P-38's vertical prowess because few fighters will stay with the 38 at low speeds, let alone in the vertical. Though, I still find myself stalling and out of moves.
Any good low speed/vertical maneuvers, gentlemen?
my favorite is the stall/spin/pirouette into the forrest that is generally only a few hundred feet below. :aok :D
-
The way to beat the Spitfires in the P-38 is to get the fight as slow as possible. You want to make the fight a contest over who can best minimize their forward velocity, because that is one way in which the P-38s are clearly superior to the Spitfires.
Actually, the way to beat a Spitfire in a P-38 is not to get into a turning engagement at medium speeds with a Spitfire. Either keep the fight fast, in the vertical or if there is no other option, slow to stall speeds. YMMV.
As for the original questions, what is a "rope" and a "fake rope"? Easy to answer. A rope (or rope-a-dope, or as I like to call it, rope-a-dweeb) is basically getting the opponent to follow you up in a zoom climb with the intention of getting the opponent to stall out before you, at which time you just loop over and put some rounds into the belly of the stalled out opponent. It's a maneuver that should only be done if you have a superior energy state over the other guy or if your plane is superior in a zoom climb. A fake rope is when the opponent that you're trying to get to follow you up pretends that he's about to stall out below you. Basically, the opponent in a fake rope is hiding his energy state to make you believe he has less than you do when in reality he has the same or more than you do and intends to nail you as you loop over to complete your 'rope'.
ack-ack
-
As itchy as the 38 is at low speeds, it doesn't feel anywhere near as bad as the Spitfires or Corsairs. Something I still have to learn to use to my advantage.
The P-38 shouldn't feel 'itchy' at low speeds, its zero torque and low stall speed make the Lightning one of the most stable planes in the game at low to stall speeds. If you find it hard to control the P-38 at low to stall speeds, try being smoother on the controls instead of ham fisted and most importantly, listen to your stall buzzer. The stall buzzer will let you know how far you can push it at low/stall speeds.
ack-ack
-
I once failed a rope in a 38, had my tail shot off by a Niki, but STILL had enough stability in the stall to nose around and saw off the Niki's wing.
I've also seen a video where the 38 pilot enters a flat spin but still has enough control to take a snapshot on a corsair.
All hail no torque...
-
Ack-Ack :aok
Thanks for the description of "fake rope"
makes sense now. Gonna use now so watch it!
<S>
-
-disclaimer --- I am not a trainer. DO NOT FOLLOW MY ADVICE unless you fully understand it. Consider this advanced information. I do not recommend begginers trying this.
I used the term "fake rope" in another rescent thread here.
see this thread http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272282.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272282.0.html)
The closest definition in this thread came from Bruv119
"A fake rope i would say is more disguising the amount of energy you really have by spiral climbing or just not climbing straight up vertical. Basically encouraging the enemy con to come up and have a go when you then pull up even higher and then roll in for the kill."
This definition is nearly correct except for this part "you then pull up even higher and then roll in for the kill". THis I do not do in the fake rope
I will try to clarify what "I" call a "fake rope" and why I do it.
The basis behind a lot of the moves I do is simple...have no form...that is to say remain mysterious. If I plainly say to you.."I am going to take you up then drag out all your energy then catch you falling out of the sky and shoot you"..you would be thinking...I think I will not let that happen and just dive away or otherwise escape causing me to chase you around and giving you time to set me up or for other friendlys to kill me. Instead, what if I say that to you with no intention of doing any of it. I then know what YOU will do but you have no idea what I am going to do.
A fake rope is simple deception. The act of appearing to do one thing but doing something totally different.
A classic rope is very easy to spot (I may as well yell out the back of my plane...hey im going to rope you). A zeek for example is not going to try and follow a 4hog or spit16 or a 109k4 up into a rope that is obvious... A situation where the defender is simply going to go up and up ...doulbe or even triple immels. No..the bandit breaks off, dives and meets you head on when you come down. THis can continue over and over. Even if you get on top of the bandit he can just break turn out of guns. Its a stale mate. The more time you spend doing this the more time his buddies have to find and kill you.
If you blow the rope by not getting the angle, missing the shot, taking too long reversing at the top or worse don't have quite enough energy to pull it off, you will end up flying past the bogey nose down. The bogey can now follow you into your dive. At this point he is BEHIND you. THis is bad regardless of the speed or seperation. Even worse if you are in similar planes.
Think of a fake rope as a lead turn in reverse. I am lead turning the bandit from my six. Perhaps a more accurate description would be causing an overshoot because thats what a fake rope really is. In the beggining the bandit is behind me but at the end I am behind the bandit with him having no chance of escape.
I normally get speed (350+) and then make a turn giving the bandit an angle that allows him to close to my six..as if I were going to drag them up for a classic rope. I then take them up verticle as they expect...wagging my tail like I am trying to see their stall...and rolling my plane like I AM GOING TO STALL ( I dont really have to even see him because I know where he is). I then early turn...before THE BANDIT is out of energy into a simple flat turn pointing my down wing at the bandit. The WHOLE POINT is to keep the bandit nose up and salivating for guns on my drop. Now the bandit is thinking I could go up more and chase or I could float here and wait for the drop. Either way he is commiting to stay ON MY SIX.
At this point I am above the bandit with my down wing pointed at him and pulling low g flat turn. It is only a matter of rolling over the correct amount then cutting the corner to his plane using either a slicing rudder skid or a low yoyo.
Imagine a simple flat scissor turn where the defender in front makes a sharper turn while the attacker goes more strait. The defender will now have guns on the attacker as the attacker passes in front of the defenders guns. Now take this situation and rotate it to the verticle so that all the same moves are done going up. The flat turn becomes the sharper turn with the bandit taking the longer turn below.
While I am above pulling the low g flat turn so is the bandit. He is trapped now. He doesn't have nose up for guns because he is now pulling the same flat turn below me. He can't pull up because if he does I can just immel or wing over and pop him stalled. He can't dive away because I am already turned ready to pounce and will close in seconds if he dives. His only option is to pull a scissor reveral if I drop my nose too fast.
If I had just pulled a classic rope to start, the bandit would just dive away while im reversing at the top. Now the bandit is 2k away...thats no good.
Its better to drag them up into a fake rope then suddenly go into a flat turn dragging them around into a situation they can't escape from. If I blow it I can easily get away by diving out myself or shallow extending 90 deg the opposite direction. I have all the options. The bandit has one...go down.
The fake rope is used to gain a superior angles advantage at close range giving you a no miss shot...much the same if you did a classic rope. The difference is in the classic rope you shoot a stalled out bandit as you come DOWN.
In the fake rope you typically shoot the bandit off the high side either while he is turning away or while he tries to barrel roll/vert reverse.
Agent360
-
In the fake rope you typically shoot the bandit off the high side either while he is turning away or while he tries to barrel roll/vert reverse.
Agent360
Yup, pretty much. I do not agree with the other descriptions but the term "fake rope" is pretty vague so I can understand why there would be varying ideas. As a pwny stick who frequently attacks the horde, I fight mostly in the vert and rope, fake rope/slash is my forte. Some would be lords of the game look down their noses at me for this fighting style but the fact is, it's about the only effective way to fight the hordes outside of flying a jet. Anyone can rope, but to do it effectively and disguise it enough to regularly be successful take nuance and skill.
A few people have typed that you pull a plane up until he is foundering then you drop on him and blast him. A truly well timed rope will have you reversing back down while he is in a nose up attitude, but without the E to pull his nose up more for a gun solution, so that there is no way he can evade. Bang, canopy shot with precious little ammo used. Another reason this is particularly useful against the horde is: you waste little time on BFM and ACM which while pretty, burn precious E and seconds, allowing the enemy to close on you.
If someone is complaining about you roping, you probably are either frustrating them or killing them. :aok
-
The top end of the "rope-a-dope" was the classic "hammerhead" maneuver - took me a while to master it but if done correctly can put you in an ideal gun solution : note the smoke trail as he flips over - how aligned he is with it - great!!
http://www.fightercombat.com/pages/vid_hammerhead.html (http://www.fightercombat.com/pages/vid_hammerhead.html)
cheers eh! :)
-
the biggest problem i have when i'm the one roping you.......i can see when you're about to stall.......but i have the hardest time managing to capitalize on your mistake.
-
IMHO "torque" is your friend for this maneuver - at the top go "with" your torque - coupled with rudder it will help you on the flip. I'm not all that sure what this means in the P38 since I rarely drive them. I have heard of some who have cut an engine to assist the flip or rev it down(not sure if that is an option in AH). Like all things it's a matter of trial and error till ya get it right (even after 20+ years I'm still a terrible shot :( )
cheers eh!
-
The top end of the "rope-a-dope" was the classic "hammerhead" maneuver -
It's a pretty move for sure but hard to pull off in the MA. The actual flyng part of a good rope, which the two short fims will show, is pretty easy. The challenge is in angle and throttle management. You want to keep the distance such that your quarry stays interested. Two short films:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/eujdwmjizmw/spiral rope_1630.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/eujdwmjizmw/spiral rope_1630.ahf)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/4tmmxgkteoj/rope 2.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/4tmmxgkteoj/rope 2.ahf)
-
My first response may have been too complicated.
The "fake rope" is a simple play to bring the bandit up on your six in the verticle. From their I fly the plane almost to the rope. But instead of actually executing a classic rope and going for guns on the down side catching the bandit hanging, I alter the arc of the wing over/top reversal by going flat or shallow flat climb to ALLOW the the bandits nose to remain in control....baiting him to keep his nose up and in lag pursuit. To the bandit it looks like I don't have enough energy to pull it off...so he waits for the drop...the point which he can turn nose down and follow me into the dive.
But I don't bring my plane to the point of being forced to wing over for a kill. I continue to KEEP energy while the bandit looses it. This then gives me energy or rather makes my energy greater than his because he lost it and I kept mine.The whole point is to prevent myself from getting nose down on a better turning plane. If you are in a fast plane you can simply take your rope shot and escape.
The "fake rope" is the bait for the trap. Take the bait and u get trapped. The "fake rope" is a way of baiting a better turning plane into a depleted energy positon giving me control to make repeated close in shots instead of blowing everything on one classic rope shot.
Some people may remember "Creton". He used this move but had no name for it. He taught it to me. I named it the "Fake rope". It's NOT a rope. BUt it looks like one from the bandits perspective. That's why I call it "fake".
IT's just a way of drawing a better turning plane into a nose up turning position so that I have enough time to get my plane nose down and into guns BEFORE he detects the trap and dives away.
-
Another "fake", one I use a lot, is to fake being roped, hehe.
I just follow a guy up for a bit, roll slight left, slight right, then left onto my back and pull up elevator. I still have plenty of E, but want to look like I stall and fall (even though I may still be at 175 mph or so...). I'm banking on the fact that he's watching for me to stall, and will rush his reversal, pulling hard, maybe cutting some throttle, whatever, hoping to reverse and hit me before I can regain control and dive away... "Course, I don't need to regain speed/control, because I kept it through the manuever, hehe!
As soon as he's on his way back, I roll back to level, and pull up past him as he dives past me. I can then do several things from that point...
It's just a way to convince him he's so E-advantaged over me that me can (and maybe should) blow some of it to position for the easy kill. The end result may be him now being co-E with me, and/or in a bad position, which I can hopefully capitolize on.
-
That's not exactly what I see it as. Agent, you sure complicate things. lol To me a fake rope is going up, then the con noses down so he can have speed to nose up at you as you come down from the rope. But instead of continuing up, you pull essentially a hard yoyo for a rear quarter or 6 shot. simple
-
That's not exactly what I see it as. Agent, you sure complicate things. lol To me a fake rope is going up, then the con noses down so he can have speed to nose up at you as you come down from the rope. But instead of continuing up, you pull essentially a hard yoyo for a rear quarter or 6 shot. simple
Theres nothing fake about it if the con spots your move. Its just a simple counter. The con nosing down and coming back up is not part of the plan. This is what I am trying to avoid.
I can understand your confusion. We have totally different flying styles.
The fake rope is a verticle maneuver that results in an overshoot (yes I said overshoot). A classic rope does not. A classic rope relies on depleting the bandits energy, forcing him to roll over before you do. You get your shot by nosing over to guns before he can get away. That is not an overshoot.
The fake rope relies on using the verticle climb to force a bandit into a nose up turn allowing you to pinch the turn higher and drop to his high side or catch him on a scissor reversal.
Mtman's post above is exactly what I am trying to avoid. A bandit who spots the rope and sets up a planned counter. If I pull a fake rope correctly the bandit will stay in lag pursuit nose up.
Allowing the bandit to counter the rope is too time consuming. Especially zeeks and the like.
If I am dealing with a similar plane in turn and speed I can just do standard overshoots.
But dealing with zeeks and so forth requires a little more cunning than normal. That is if you want to catch them quick.
There is no need for any roping if you have speed and position over slower better turning plane. Just BZ em to death.
However if you are in the mood for a little "ownage" the fake rope works pretty well.
BTW, I have all kinds of fake moves. I could probably cause the whole AH traing core to freak out if I started posting them. I am sure they spend enough time convincing the students not to follow Agents crazy advice...LOL
The correct term is really a "feint". Showing the enemy a maneuver that draws him into an attack. Then you roll in from the flank and kaaaablaaaaammm.
From "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feint"
Feint is a French term that entered English from the discipline of fencing. Feints are maneuvers designed to distract or mislead, done by giving the impression that a certain maneuver will take place, while in fact another, or even none, will. In military tactics and many types of combat, there are two types of feints: feint attacks and feint retreats.
A feint attack is designed to draw defensive action towards the point under assault. It is usually used as a diversion to force the enemy to concentrate more manpower in a given area so that the opposing force in another area is weaker. Unlike a related diversionary maneuver, the demonstration, a feint involves actual contact with the enemy.
A feint retreat is performed by briefly engaging the enemy, then retreating. It is intended to draw the enemy pursuit into a prepared ambush, or to cause disarray. For example, the Anglo-Saxon downfall to the Norman invasion was instigated by this tactic where the dominant shield wall of the Saxons broke in pursuit of the Norman cavalry. This forfeited the advantage of height (as the Saxons were positioned on a hill-top) and the line was broken, providing the opportunity to fight in single handed combat on a neutral vantage point, a battle for which the Saxons were not ready.
The Parthian shot is another example of a feint retreat, where mounted Parthian archers would retreat from a battle and then, while still riding, turn their bodies back to shoot at the pursuing enemy.
A kool quote:
You wound, like Parthians, while you fly, And kill with a retreating eye.
—Samuel Butler, An Heroical Epistle of Hudibras to His Lady (1678)[1]
-
First thing I wanted to say was that "fake" was vague and would probably lead to semantics.. It could mean a lot of things when the OP only heard some guy say "fake rope".
And I would show students feints. Whatever gets the job done, is a good ACM/SA/whatever tactic.
-
Theres nothing fake about it if the con spots your move. Its just a simple counter. The con nosing down and coming back up is not part of the plan. This is what I am trying to avoid.
I can understand your confusion. We have totally different flying styles.
The fake rope is a verticle maneuver that results in an overshoot (yes I said overshoot).
I'm not confused. Who died and made you the authority on defining vague terms?
-
I'm not confused. Who died and made you the authority on defining vague terms?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q0g_MhKL9g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q0g_MhKL9g)
-
I show a variety of "feints" to my students as well. Being predictable can easily get you killed in AH. "Feinting" can often draw a "predictable" response, which is deadly when the planned feint draws a planned (or at least hoped-for) response. In some ways, more experienced players may be more susceptible to a good feint, since they're watching so closely for a weakness to capitolize on. An inexperienced player may not even have sufficient SA to see the feint, let alone be able to instantly manuever to benefit from it.
In the "fake-out" example I posted earlier, it just plain doesn't work if my opponent isn't watching me closely, and looking for what he wants to see...
An example I often teach, after I show them how to "win" a merge, is how to purposely "lose" the merge to draw the opponent into doing what I want. I use that against planes I can't catch, unless I can convince them to pull a hard immelman.
-
I show a variety of "feints" to my students as well. Being predictable can easily get you killed in AH. "Feinting" can often draw a "predictable" response, which is deadly when the planned feint draws a planned (or at least hoped-for) response. In some ways, more experienced players may be more susceptible to a good feint, since they're watching so closely for a weakness to capitolize on. An inexperienced player may not even have sufficient SA to see the feint, let alone be able to instantly manuever to benefit from it.
Just like cards: you never bluff a fish. :lol
-
Thanks for the info'. :aok
I've been killed many times for following guys up, thinking I can get guns on.
Not a good idea to follow up in a jug unless you have a lot of energy.
-
I normally get speed (350+) and then make a turn giving the bandit an angle that allows him to close to my six..as if I were going to drag them up for a classic rope. I then take them up verticle as they expect...wagging my tail like I am trying to see their stall...and rolling my plane like I AM GOING TO STALL ( I dont really have to even see him because I know where he is). I then early turn...before THE BANDIT is out of energy into a simple flat turn pointing my down wing at the bandit. The WHOLE POINT is to keep the bandit nose up and salivating for guns on my drop. Now the bandit is thinking I could go up more and chase or I could float here and wait for the drop. Either way he is commiting to stay ON MY SIX.
At this point I am above the bandit with my down wing pointed at him and pulling low g flat turn. It is only a matter of rolling over the correct amount then cutting the corner to his plane using either a slicing rudder skid or a low yoyo.
Almost a shortcut to a spiral climb? You go very very vertical to bleed off smash (both yours and bandits) faster than you would in a simple spiral climb, then go into a flat turn (similar to a spiral) to deny the guns solution (but still make the bandit think he has one) while giving you the option to come back down more easily.
You could use this to take down an aircraft with a better climb but lower initial E-state than you? It seems the "standard" shallow spiral climb takes too long and the better climber would make up the E-difference, this move would accelerate the pace so that they don't get the chance to make up the difference.
-
Almost a shortcut to a spiral climb? You go very very vertical to bleed off smash (both yours and bandits) faster than you would in a simple spiral climb, then go into a flat turn (similar to a spiral) to deny the guns solution (but still make the bandit think he has one) while giving you the option to come back down more easily.
You could use this to take down an aircraft with a better climb but lower initial E-state than you? It seems the "standard" shallow spiral climb takes too long and the better climber would make up the E-difference, this move would accelerate the pace so that they don't get the chance to make up the difference.
That strikes me as dangerous, plus 360 flies the 109 - so I'm thinking the opposite. You could die either way, though. I think, either way, you want to have a good idea of the opponent's E state before you try roping him. I'd think even a turd-like p40, given sufficient smash, could follow you up and retain sufficient airspeed for enough nose control to get guns.
If I follow correctly, the fake rope relies, as he says, on what amounts to a flat turn overshoot below the fake roper - who can then rudder slash (in the 109's case I guess you'd want to flat turn left at the top of the fake, then rudder slash left onto the flat turn overshoot) down to guns "on".
As for the rope itself, I've been following 360's training guide using a G-2. It does turn out that pulling vertical from about 250+ IAS in a G-2 headed North, for example, followed by cutting power at about 100 IAS, followed by fuller power/hard left rudder, seems to result in a very quick reversal to something like south +/- 30 degrees of heading.
I'm not sure but, from the cockpit it looks like some combo of roll and yaw. I can really see what's going on from F3 or F4 views because it's almost impossible to retain some view of the ground frame of reference so I've been practicing from cockpit view with "the move". I can't wait 'til the first time I get to actually use it in the MA.
Next question: how do I have to modify my maneuver for use with the up-powered G-14 and K-4? There's much more torque on hand.
-
ya know?
i managed to rope a c2 the other day. i did it a couple times actually. the problem i have, is capatlizing on it. i see others do this, and they drop on em, and kill em. i do it, and i can't seem to get my nose back down and on to the target before they regain enough speed to maneuver.
-
ya know?
i managed to rope a c2 the other day. i did it a couple times actually. the problem i have, is capatlizing on it. i see others do this, and they drop on em, and kill em. i do it, and i can't seem to get my nose back down and on to the target before they regain enough speed to maneuver.
Maybe it's your ride. I'm a relative novice and even without "the move" managed to reverse a k-whopper quickly enough to tater a foolish Mossie the other day. I just split-essed it down onto the thing's tail as it tried to dive for airspeed.
-
Maybe it's your ride. I'm a relative novice and even without "the move" managed to reverse a k-whopper quickly enough to tater a foolish Mossie the other day. I just split-essed it down onto the thing's tail as it tried to dive for airspeed.
well, i fly the p38J almost exclusively.......so i may need to "read" the other guy a little better, or just react quicker.....i know other guys in 38's do it well.......
-
Indeed, the 38 is a notorious roper. The counter-rotation takes out the torque effect, too, of power off/on stall - unless, presumably, you control E1 and E2 independently. Worst case, I'd think you could flop it over with the elevator. Maybe you're bleeding too much airspeed... not enough E when you set up the rope?
-
ya know?
i managed to rope a c2 the other day. i did it a couple times actually. the problem i have, is capatlizing on it. i see others do this, and they drop on em, and kill em. i do it, and i can't seem to get my nose back down and on to the target before they regain enough speed to maneuver.
You need to come down earlier, obviously. So the stumbling block seems to be judging their speed. Try to reverse at the same time as you usually do, but a couple of seconds earlier. So you'd be relying on an instinct that's already built and reliable (you consistently come around just a bit too late).
-
well, i fly the p38J almost exclusively.......so i may need to "read" the other guy a little better, or just react quicker.....i know other guys in 38's do it well.......
It's a refinement to your technique that's missing, that's all.
Getting the guy to follow you up, and stall out under you, is just a part of the process. As you're seeing, it doesn't actually accomplish anything beyond that. It doesn't give you the kill...
"Reading the other guy" is very important. It's part of the ongoing, all-encompasing SA required to succeed regularly. Being able to accurately read his E-state, capabilities, etc, and weigh them against your current possibilities is a basic requirement. You can't rope a guy who's going to catch you on the zoom, regardless of whether he's faster, or can cut across the "corner" you create by going too vertical too quickly (even if he's slower than you).
The first requirement might be to assess whether you CAN rope him. Then whether you SHOULD rope him (other bad guys around?). And then it's still up to him whether he'll LET you rope him.
If all that goes ok, and he's roped, you still need to be set up properly to score the kill, and that's actually the most difficult part. You want him to stall, but YOU SHOULDN'T. You want enough speed to maneuver over the top. If you stall and flop, time is wasted before you can recover the ability to line up your shot. By that time, it may be too late. I like to be coming over the top with about 130mph, generally assisted by a notch or two of flaps, which I retract AS SOON as my nose is down, because they screw up my ability to line up the shot.
Position is important. He can't be too far away on the horizontal plane, but I don't particularly like him directly under me either. The "final placement" of his stall in relation to you is important (and if you're not stalled, you CAN adjust it by adjusting your own position).
Stalling under you isn't enough either. HOW FAR under you matters. Stalling 600 below you is too close, and he may even pop you from there. Stalling 2k below you is bad too, he'll be nose-down and maneuvering before you can reverse and shoot him.
What I like, is a guy who's on the verge of stalling at about 1200 to 1.5K below me, while I'm still going up at about 130. There's a lot of "judging" going on, because I want to come over the top just as he hits his stall, so as he's just started to hang, my nose is already pointed back at him. This means beginning my reversal BEFORE he stalls, but not too soon, or I may get shot. Timing is crucial, as is the ability to judge his situation. With my nose down, I want to see him hanging about 800-1000 below me. That gives me just enough time to line up a shot and kill him. I also need to be under sufficient control to dodge his debris, or him, if I've mis-judged. He should be hanging/flopping and helpless when I take my shot.
-
Here are a few short rope films. Nothing fancy, but then again most ropes aren't...
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zn3jdijegmx/Zeke rope.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/wzoxukgtjoz/Spit rope.ahf
Almost missed the spit, hehe!
-
What I like, is a guy who's on the verge of stalling at about 1200 to 1.5K below me, while I'm still going up at about 130. There's a lot of "judging" going on, because I want to come over the top just as he hits his stall, so as he's just started to hang, my nose is already pointed back at him. This means beginning my reversal BEFORE he stalls, but not too soon, or I may get shot. Timing is crucial, as is the ability to judge his situation. With my nose down, I want to see him hanging about 800-1000 below me. That gives me just enough time to line up a shot and kill him. I also need to be under sufficient control to dodge his debris, or him, if I've mis-judged. He should be hanging/flopping and helpless when I take my shot.
Personally I prefer the spiral climb in a better climbing bird. It's not a guaranteed kill, but it's a great way to reverse situations and bleed the other guy's energy.
It's also safer than a straight rope - you are giving your opponent an out of plane 90 degree deflection shot. You've got to be an absolute sniper with insane control of your plane to land it. I've frequently had my opponent close to 200-400 ish range and miss.
The profit isn't as great. They have more time to recover (this maybe an issue with my judgment and technique, I probably could be dropping back down a bit earlier). On the other hand, you don't need so much separation at the end, and it's "sneakier" - they won't spot it as a straight rope and that will encourage your opponent to blow E trying to get the shot.
-
Cap, I posted a couple of short films in this thread that will help you. I keep them at about 800 yards so they are close enough that they will try to pull for a gun solution as I spiral, thus they bleed more E. Moot is right, the trick is to nose back down sooner, over their canopy before they actually stall but after they have the E to pull their nose up that little bit farther for a gun solution. When they have this nose up attitude, there is no opportunity for them to evade. It just becomes a matter of effective prosecution of your attack on a helpless opponent.
Boomer, spiraling in a better climbing bird is fine, but to do it in a worse climbing bird is even more effective as your quarry is more likely to try to continue the rope. People love to chase my pwny up ropes.
Cap, here's those films just to save you a search. They are quite short so they won't tie you up with a long download. :salute
http://www.mediafire.com/file/eujdwmjizmw/spiral rope_1630.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/4tmmxgkteoj/rope 2.ahf
-
Wow, great kills!
I'm suggesting a slightly different spiral rope. Your kills are great and they show a very effective highly vertical and tight spiral. They demonstrate really great timing as well.
The difference with what I'm suggesting is that you execute these with a sizable E-advantage. With that advantage, you can afford to pull far more vertical.
The type of spiral climb I use is much shallower, good to equalize E using a superior climbing bird. Example... Pony chasing a 109K4 from about 2k out, with decent 50 mph speed advantage. 109 goes into a shallow spiral, uses his climb to equalize E states and to slowly drain the Pony. At the top of the spiral, both planes are slow, but the 109 is above the pony and gives a 90 degree deflection shot to the pony, which the pony can't hit. 109 nose downs to chase once he sees the 51 no longer has nose-on.
Slightly different execution and situation, same concept. I may modify my version to go nose down as soon as I see tracers - that means the chaser is pulling lead and blowing E quickly and the 90 degree deflection is no longer necessary.
-
i think the link to zeek rope, and spit rope are corrupt. there's no ground, and they cause my film player to shut down after a few seconds.
the other two are good..........
thanks steve, and mtnman
-
i think the link to zeek rope, and spit rope are corrupt. there's no ground, and they cause my film player to shut down after a few seconds.
You have not downloaded the requisite terrain files. Get them and it should display fine.
-
i think the link to zeek rope, and spit rope are corrupt. there's no ground, and they cause my film player to shut down after a few seconds.
the other two are good..........
thanks steve, and mtnman
That happens to me if I don't have the correct terrain loaded. For example, I play the game on a partition that I only use for AH. I generally watch films on my "main" partition though, and have the problem you mention if the flim I want to watch is on a different terrain than I have loaded in my "main" partition. I just copy the terrain, and the problem goes away.
-
That happens to me if I don't have the correct terrain loaded. For example, I play the game on a partition that I only use for AH. I generally watch films on my "main" partition though, and have the problem you mention if the flim I want to watch is on a different terrain than I have loaded in my "main" partition. I just copy the terrain, and the problem goes away.
ok.......now i'm getting confused?
if i;ve flown the maps in the arenas, then doesn't that mean they're loaded? or is it possible to fly a different terrain on any given map(what you see on your screen)?
-
Personally I prefer the spiral climb in a better climbing bird. It's not a guaranteed kill, but it's a great way to reverse situations and bleed the other guy's energy.
It's also safer than a straight rope - you are giving your opponent an out of plane 90 degree deflection shot. You've got to be an absolute sniper with insane control of your plane to land it. I've frequently had my opponent close to 200-400 ish range and miss.
The profit isn't as great. They have more time to recover (this maybe an issue with my judgment and technique, I probably could be dropping back down a bit earlier). On the other hand, you don't need so much separation at the end, and it's "sneakier" - they won't spot it as a straight rope and that will encourage your opponent to blow E trying to get the shot.
Yea, I use a whole variety of different rope manuevers, disquise them, and transition in and out of them as opportunity arises, or is lost. I just thought I'd show the simplist one, which works on the majority of the players I try it on.
-
ok.......now i'm getting confused?
if i;ve flown the maps in the arenas, then doesn't that mean they're loaded? or is it possible to fly a different terrain on any given map(what you see on your screen)?
No, if you've flown the map in the arena, it's loaded. For some reason, you don't have the map loaded in your AH folder that I was on when I filmed. You probably haven't flown on that map yet, so it hasn't been d-loaded into your folder yet. That's why the film viewer errors-out when you try to watch it. PM me your email, I'll copy my terrain folder and email it to you. If you copy it into your AH folder, you'll have all the terrains I do, and those two films will then work.
I have two versions of AH on my computer. One on each of two partitions. I use one version for playing, and one for watching films. The version I use for playing obviously has all the maps loaded that I've flown on. Since I don't fly on my second version, the maps never load/update.
The only reason I do that, is because I like to play AH with all but the minimum required processes running in the background. I restart my computer before I play AH, and when it starts, I tell it to use my "gaming" partition. On that partition, I only have windows XP and AH loaded, and most of the processes for XP turned off. No firewall, no AV, no nothing just the game. It helps me run the game faster/smoother. I don't need to turn any processes off, or worry about auto-updates, or spyware on that partition, because it is only used for playing AH.
For all other PC use, I use my "normal" or "main" partition. Email, surfing the web, any other work I do is done here. Because my computer runs in this partition 95% of the time, I often watch my AH fiilms on it, and never watch them on my "AH" partition. If I play the game, and a new map loads, when I try to play that film on my "other" partition, the viewer crashes, because it doesn't recognize the terrain. A 10 second copy/paste fixes the issue.
-
Or just go to the AH Home Page and download the terrains you don't have in your AHTerr folder. It'll be one or more of the ones in the top section, since I haven't participated in any of the special events.
-
Man these kills are so good - I gotta try these timing variations on my ropes now!
-
it just hit me.....i don't often go into lw arenas. that's probably why i don't have the terrain.
-
I want to thank everybody who replied in this thread, especially you guys with films. I know I didn't originate it, but the advice here has breathed some new life into my flying. :salute
-
I would like to point out that the original subject was what is a "fake" rope. The rescent posts have described and shown how to do a successful real rope.
I want to make sure that everyone understands what I meant by a "fake" rope.
If you do not get the timing right then the rope does not work.
Originally I described this move in response to Mtman's thread on how to kill zeeks in a faster plane that can not turn with a zeek.
The point was that a zeek can spot the rope and will just turn out flat or dive away ruining your attempt to pull a real rope.
My fake rope is a way to KEEP the zeek nose up and NOT DIVING away giving me time to maneuver nose down and catch the zeek BEFORE he can get away and before he can make a hard break turn out of guns.
I called if fake because it starts out like a real rope but transitions into something different. The part that is real is the verticle pull to bring the zeek up behind. The fake part is to present a situation where it appears to the zeek I DO NOT Have anough energy to pull the real rope off, therefor keeping the zeek baited to nose up.
Even if I did in fact have enough energy does not matter because he will just deny my rope if he spots it. The whole point is to fool the zeek into a situation where he CAN NOT get away and allow me time to close for guns.
A real rope ends up with either a pure rope kill or total miss and has a lot of oppurtunity to screw it up.
A fake rope allows more controlled maneuvering and use of angles at slower speeds.
It is very difficult to kill superior turning planes in faster non turning planes because they can easily dodge your Bz passes over and over and this take time you don't have. Further if you mess your pass up you can easily be caught by angles and killed. Zeeks may be slow but only if you stay fast. If you blow your BZ pass enough times and allow the zeek time to regain speed you will end up running if not outright blown up.
-
Sounds like a fake-failed rope - ie you fake not being able to pull it off. To make sure - you top out above your opponent but do a low G flat turn to preserve your energy and keep them nose up?
-
Hi guys.
Noob question on terms.
Can you tell me what a rope is? I heard one guy say "setting up a rope" and another say
"setting a fake rope".
Have been flying P47-D-11
Thanks
It looks to me like the original subject was "Can you tell me what a rope is" with some confusion over what a fake rope may be, and if/how it differs from a "real" rope.
I think we've all done a pretty good job of describing and showing a basic rope, and have even gone into some detail on some more complicated versions.
I must admit though, I either disagree or am confused by your (Agent's) version of a "fake" rope, because to me it looks like it's anything but a "fake" rope. It just sounds like a more complex version, where you camoflage your E a bit to get him roped. It doesn't sound any more "fake" than if I slowly bring my nose up enough so that the guy following me can't see the horizon anymore, before gradually increasing the climb angle so hopefully sucker him vertical before he realizes we're no longer in a shallow climb. He thinks we're in a shallow climb, but he's roped. If anything, it's a "fake shallow climb" not a "fake rope".
If the end result is him following you up into a stall, so you can reverse and shoot him as he wallows, isn't that a rope? What's fake about it? The beauty of a well-executed rope is that your opponent doesn't feel like he's really screwed, until he's really screwed. "Fake" rope says to me "Looks like a rope, but isn't"- not, "Doesn't look like a rope, but is". Fooling your opponent into getting himself roped, is roping him.
I'm also not in agreement that your opponent recognizing the rope and trying to dive away or stay level is a real problem. For one, it means the set-up for a rope isn't so hot to begin with, if he recognizes the E-differential is so great that there's no way in heck he's gonna try to follow you up (or if his skill-level and SA warn him against it- nothing works as poorly as roping someone who knows what it is, and knows what you're attempting). And, if the E-differential is so different, it also means I have several different options to kill the fella, and unless I just want to kill the guy by roping him for some reason, I'll just choose a different option. Also, if the E-differential is that great to begin with, even if he gets roped, he's gonna be awful far below me when he stalls, which again, isn't such a hot set-up, IMO. Further, what does it say about the skill level and SA of said pilot, if he's willing to go vertical and stall out so far below you?
So he dives away or stays level... The premise here is that he's a slow plane, and I'm in a fast plane. I just dive after him and shoot him, or force him to turn and I shoot him, or force him to turn and zoom past and up, to repeat (and he might even come up on the rope at that point)... If he has enough seperation to turn HO on me as I dive in, A- we have that large E-differential, which got us here in the first place, and B- I still have lots of options. Possibly the simplist is to not go past him, but rather pull my nose back up and try for a rope right then, since he's already displaying a willingness to go HO, which is pointing his nose up at me, and again, he has less E, and just blew a bunch of it reversing for the HO. I don't even need to go up all that much, but just "loiter" a bit, waiting for him to stall. Bang! He's roped (or he turns away, so I can shoot him in the back).
If he dives away and I chase him, bleeding some of my E and reducing our E-differential, the option to rope gets better IMO, because if he recognizes our E-states are closer, he'll hopefully be more tempted to follow me up as he turns and I zoom back up, thinking he'll get me at the top- Bang! He's roped!
The way the "fake rope" term is being used here, it looks to me like it's just going to cause unnecessary confusion.
We might be best off saying "Here's what a basic rope is- but be careful, there are a whole lot of different ways to rope someone, without him realizing he's roped until it's too late. They won't all be as obvious as this, and once you get fairly proficient at them you'll be able to play with some of those different varieties, and you should, because an experienced stick probably won't fall for the obvious ones"."
-
Thanks guys for all the help. :rock
I've been following this thread for a couple of weeks now after my OP.
The information on and descriptions of "fake rope" vary a bit but it matters not. What matters to me is I now know
what a "Rope" is and hopefully how to set, spot and deffend against one.
My next challenge is to get my turns at the top of the rope quicker and sweeter. Spit8 is my ride lately
and been trying to get the "wing over" stall turn sorted. Hard aint they!! Any tips? Should I be doing this in this AC
or using a different type of stall turn.
Thanks again Fellas :aok
KlunK
-
I just try to time it so I don't actually need to stall at the top, I prefer to still have enough speed to manuever over the top. This also allows me to alter my position a bit, if I need to dodge a few shots, or if I want/need to turn it into more of a spiral climb.
Another option is to do like Agent mentions in one of his 109 help threads. Go into the DA or TA, or a quiet corner of the MA if you want, and just practice zooming vertical. Hold the nose vertical as long as possible, and when you do end up "losing it" practice recovering as quickly and smoothly as possible.
That's going to teach you control on all three axi, and you may find it's easier/quicker to "go with" the plane when it wants to drop a wing and start to spin. I like to go with it, and recover, better than to fight it. I recover control and have the nose pointed where i want it quicker that way.
-
I just try to time it so I don't actually need to stall at the top, I prefer to still have enough speed to manuever over the top. This also allows me to alter my position a bit, if I need to dodge a few shots, or if I want/need to turn it into more of a spiral climb.
Another option is to do like Agent mentions in one of his 109 help threads. Go into the DA or TA, or a quiet corner of the MA if you want, and just practice zooming vertical. Hold the nose vertical as long as possible, and when you do end up "losing it" practice recovering as quickly and smoothly as possible.
That's going to teach you control on all three axi, and you may find it's easier/quicker to "go with" the plane when it wants to drop a wing and start to spin. I like to go with it, and recover, better than to fight it. I recover control and have the nose pointed where i want it quicker that way.
was fighting pangea last night. he kept coming back in different aircraft. i'm starting to think that he's one of those guys that it's only fair if it's 3 vs him. :D
anyway.....me p38j, him p39...but i don't remember which one. i got him to follow me up. i think he never got closer than 600 or 800. either way, he popped me. gave me a pilot wound.....and thereafter, every time i came close to having a shot, i blacked out.
it was a fun fight though. :aok
-
My next challenge is to get my turns at the top of the rope quicker and sweeter. Spit8 is my ride lately
and been trying to get the "wing over" stall turn sorted.
Use flaps. Other than that, check out Steve's films. The thing is, when you are just hitting around 130 IAS, if you've picked your rope correctly, so are they. By the time you get your nose around, they should be wallowing. So the keys are
1) Use flaps to get your nose around quickly
2) Time it so you nose down before you hit stall.
You can try Agent's method as well, but I find that's more useful when I need to squeeze every last bit of vertical performance out of my plane. With a proper rope, you shouldn't have to, the disparate energy states should take care of you.
-
the biggest problem i have when i'm the one roping you.......i can see when you're about to stall.......but i have the hardest time managing to capitalize on your mistake.
me too!! i can get the rope and the fake if i am following, but in the rope i have a very hard time getting guns on! i guess i wait to long and am almost stalled as well, by the time i get guns on he is manuvering, so i will follow him up and kill him if he goes up, but they dont most of the time, they run!
-
mtnman..with all due respect
You may be confused but I think you just disagree with me.
By standard definitions any move to the vertical forcing the opponent to stall is a rope.
I have repeatedly stated the fake rope DOES NOT involve forcing the opponent into a stall. He may in fact stall himself therefore roping himself. Although this can and does happen it is not the goal of the move. If this does happen it is a fortuitous..nothing more.
There are many accepted terms in Shaw's book. You will not find the term "fake rope" in it. You will not find this term listed in any books on ACM. And of course you will not find any trainers using the term of teaching anything similar to it.
The "fake rope" consists of a series of standard ACM maneuvers strung together. Since I repeatedly do this same series of maneuvers in the exact same way, which results in the same ending I chose to name it something.
Everyone is free to disagree with the usefullness of the move. Many posts here have stated this opinion arguing that is serves no purpose and is likely to put you at disadvantage or even get you killed.
The usefulness of it is not for me to decide. That is up to the reader. I only described it in detail and stated my reasons for using it.
At the very least it has served a purpose of perhaps helping others understand what a real rope is and how to do one.
My style of flying and the moves I use to win are unconventional. Most trainers disagree with them. The fake rope is one of these cases.
As we all know every engagement is a free flowing process of move and counter move. There are many excepted concepts and of course there will be unaccepted ones as well. It is up to the reader/pilot to discover for themselves what is or is not useful to them.
At this point I can offer no further explanation as the topic has been fully explored and explained.
S!
-
mtnman..with all due respect
You may be confused but I think you just disagree with me.
By standard definitions any move to the vertical forcing the opponent to stall is a rope.
I have repeatedly stated the fake rope DOES NOT involve forcing the opponent into a stall. He may in fact stall himself therefore roping himself. Although this can and does happen it is not the goal of the move. If this does happen it is a fortuitous..nothing more.
There are many accepted terms in Shaw's book. You will not find the term "fake rope" in it. You will not find this term listed in any books on ACM. And of course you will not find any trainers using the term of teaching anything similar to it.
The "fake rope" consists of a series of standard ACM maneuvers strung together. Since I repeatedly do this same series of maneuvers in the exact same way, which results in the same ending I chose to name it something.
Everyone is free to disagree with the usefullness of the move. Many posts here have stated this opinion arguing that is serves no purpose and is likely to put you at disadvantage or even get you killed.
The usefulness of it is not for me to decide. That is up to the reader. I only described it in detail and stated my reasons for using it.
At the very least it has served a purpose of perhaps helping others understand what a real rope is and how to do one.
My style of flying and the moves I use to win are unconventional. Most trainers disagree with them. The fake rope is one of these cases.
As we all know every engagement is a free flowing process of move and counter move. There are many excepted concepts and of course there will be unaccepted ones as well. It is up to the reader/pilot to discover for themselves what is or is not useful to them.
At this point I can offer no further explanation as the topic has been fully explored and explained.
S!
Sounds good Agent!
I don't generally fly/fight in the "recommended" manner either, and I don't doubt you find the maneuver you describe useful, and use it regularly. I just don't see the way it's named agreeing with the way it's described. No big deal...
<S>
-
me too!! i can get the rope and the fake if i am following, but in the rope i have a very hard time getting guns on! i guess i wait to long and am almost stalled as well, by the time i get guns on he is manuvering, so i will follow him up and kill him if he goes up, but they dont most of the time, they run!
Here, look at it from this perspective - say I am 300 mph going up roping a guy 1k behind me who is 250 mph.
I go up, i bleed a little bit of E so on the way up our speeds are going to be something like me @ 200, enemy @ 180.
Our speeds will continue to be closely matched all the way up to the top of the rope and stall. Therefore if I wait until I stall, my opponent will stall at the same time. By the time I'm nose down going after him, he's regaining airspeed and maneuvering ability. Good, but not a guaranteed kill like a stalled out opponent is.
Contrast this to the situation where I nose over at around 130-150 mph. I am not stalled and neither is he. However this doesn't matter because he is likely 600-800 out with no closure and mushy controls - he cannot pull into a guns solution. However, his nose is still pointing up and he is losing speed.
In THIS situation and nose over timing, he is stalled and I am coming down on him. BAM, easy kill on a non-maneuvering target.
The key concept here is that you can approximately judge your opponent's airspeed by looking at your own. When you are at 130 mph, he is around 130 mph. This of course relies on the correct rope setup - you should be seeing negative or neutral closure from 1.0-1.5k out before you pull into the vertical. Knowing this timing, you can pull over the top before you stall and in the 3-4 seconds it takes for you to pull over, he will have lost that last bit of airspeed to keep him from stalling.
-
Sounds good Agent!
I don't generally fly/fight in the "recommended" manner either, and I don't doubt you find the maneuver you describe useful, and use it regularly. I just don't see the way it's named agreeing with the way it's described. No big deal...
<S>
He does :S