Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Ardy123 on August 28, 2009, 03:17:01 PM
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Often times in fights I find myself engaged in rolling scissors and often I find that at some point I'm able to get the advantage, at least momentarily via rolling at the top very quickly due to the engine torque. I am kinda able to set it up by always rolling to the left but when I try and purposely cause a roll using my engine torque I can never seem to do it or control it. Obviously, I would like to beable to do it on command, but how? what are the necessary pre-conditions (other than going slow and throttling up the engine)? Is it related to trim? etc...
Thanks
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Well if you have auto trim on it's going to fight that roll if it's not a result of stick force.
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Practice.. And post film here so we can help you in detail.
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If your going full, don't. That will slow the torque down quite a bit.
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I havent been in 109 much at all, but I think of using the prop to roll my like a wound rubber band.
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Ardy,
You are pulling to verticle, stalling the wings. When both wings stall the tork takes over and rolls the plane to the left because you have lost all lift. As this happens the low wing (left wing) goes to full stall and snaps the plane over. When the snaps occurs it just slings your plane over into a spinning roll. This is what happens in the uncontrolled version.
It is possible to stall both wings together. However most of the time when in a verticle stalling positon the natural roll of the plane due to engine tork rolls the plane to the left, dropping the left wing first which causes a stall of that wing. The high wing is traveling a longer arc and the low wing is almost standing still. This immediatly causes a low wing stall. The high wing has lift pushing the right side up and the low wing looses lift. This imbalance combined with tork throws the plane over into a snap roll to the left.
If you want to learn how to control this and use it to your advantage may I suggest a few drills.
First, learn to take the plane to a perfect 90 deg climb (strait up) at full throttle (no wep). You will find that the plane will attempt to roll left when airspeed drops below about 80 mph. This is called a "power ON stall". Use rudder and aileron to keep the plane verticle as long as possible while keeping the throttle at full power. Do not use flaps. Simply practice going 90 deg vert and keeping that as long as possible. If you do this a few times you will find that the plane does EXACTLY the same thing every time. You will have to do it more than 10 times atleast.
Second, Do exactly the same thing except watch your air speed....or atleast be aware of it. At 100 mph pull (not chop) the throttle off to zero. This is called a "power off stall". Again keep the plane verticle using rudder and aileron.
Note the difference in behavior of the plane between power on stall and power off stall.
Third, Do both power on and power of stalls but this time push the stick forward at the stall...the point at which the plane naturally rolls no matter what you do.
Fourth, bring the plane to verticle at full power, before the power on stall pull the throttle off push the stick forward and then push the throttle to full power with full right rudder. The plane will magically glide over inverted.
Fifth, Do step #4 and pop 2 nothces of flaps as you go inverted. The flaps will swing your nose down into a 45 deg line headed to the ground.
Now, after you have practiced this for a few hours you will then do this all over again but begin by leveling out at about 250 mph and going verticle using half throttle. You now do #1 to #5 AT HALF THROTTLE. This means your power on stall will be at half throttle. As the plane stalls and you begin to "mush" push the throttle to full power and the plane will just go right over. Use a little rudder (right or left..which ever one you need to point the nose) to control the nose. At this point you will find that pushing and pulling the throttle on and off will spin your nose around in an arc sufficient to bring you around, nose down in a controlled fashion.
At first do all this with plenty of alt...say 2k or so.
When you can do this on the deck without crashing you have mastered the "magic move"
I recommend you do this over an airfield using the runway as a reference. This will help you orientate yourself to what your plane is doing.
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Agent, that is excellent info. Does it matter which variance of 109 you do that manoeuver with or it's all the same basic thing just more or less input throttle/rudder/ailerons/from the pilot? I know u fly the K4 a lot but what about the 109F. Tks
Black70
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Agent, that is excellent info. Does it matter which variance of 109 you do that manoeuver with or it's all the same basic thing just more or less input throttle/rudder/ailerons/from the pilot? I know u fly the K4 a lot but what about the 109F. Tks
Black70
No not really. They all have good tork. I would say the F4 and G2 are the easiest to do it in. The K4 is harder because it stalls more and has more tork making it hard to control at stall speed. The others tend to be more forgiving. The K4 will just spin out of controll and flop all over unless you realllllllly practice controlling it at stall.
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Agent, I practiced your suggested exercises for vertical stall handling, they are great and very instructive on the aircraft's performance envelope. By accident, I found that I could :O intentionally :O enter into a flat spin by going slightly past vertical then powering-off.
I'm guessing you've observed the same thing. Have you ever found any combat application for such a move?
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The instructions you gave are cool Agent :aok
I've been flying the Jug for weeks now (D-25 mainly)
Am getting used to getting it verticle but can't get a nice turn at he top.
Just seems to hang sideways then flop and spin.
Have been using your speeds that you gave for the K-4.
Should I change them. Is there a different approach to this move in the Jug?
I don't usally fight in the vert' with this plane but would be a good tool to have.
Thanks
KlunK
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The instructions you gave are cool Agent :aok
I've been flying the Jug for weeks now (D-25 mainly)
Am getting used to getting it verticle but can't get a nice turn at he top.
Just seems to hang sideways then flop and spin.
Have been using your speeds that you gave for the K-4.
Should I change them. Is there a different approach to this move in the Jug?
I don't usally fight in the vert' with this plane but would be a good tool to have.
Thanks
KlunK
In the jug you will have to use more rudder at the top and start the wing over before you stall.
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Agent, I practiced your suggested exercises for vertical stall handling, they are great and very instructive on the aircraft's performance envelope. By accident, I found that I could :O intentionally :O enter into a flat spin by going slightly past vertical then powering-off.
I'm guessing you've observed the same thing. Have you ever found any combat application for such a move?
No if its uncontrolled. But if you practice feathering the throttle on or off and use rudder you will find that you can control the stall. I use the stick forward in a spin to create verticle overshoots. Its like a neg barrel roll. As the bandit comes up the pipe I do the move and he flys right by.To him I just suddenly dissappear from sight. Sometime if they panic and roll over you can shoot them after you have snap rolled to upright or get them on the way down.
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No if its uncontrolled. But if you practice feathering the throttle on or off and use rudder you will find that you can control the stall. I use the stick forward in a spin to create verticle overshoots. Its like a neg barrel roll. As the bandit comes up the pipe I do the move and he flys right by.To him I just suddenly dissappear from sight. Sometime if they panic and roll over you can shoot them after you have snap rolled to upright or get them on the way down.
Yes, I know what you're talking about. The plane is remarkably consistent in how it noses down and rolls at the top with power.
I'm talking about something different though. Imagine the aircraft going vertical, hitting the top of the climb slightly past vertical, and being unpowered.
The aircraft noses over the top (falling with wings inverted with respect to the horizon). However, the aircraft has NO forward airspeed.
At this point, the aircraft has its wings more or less level with the horizon (though inverted attitude so the ground is "above" you). It is not going forward, it is falling straight DOWN, but with nose pointed at the horizon. The aircraft's nose also yaws in one direction with a predictable (though rather slow) frequency. You can get out of this by simply turning on throttle.
Have you ever found any application for something like this?
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Yes, I know what you're talking about. The plane is remarkably consistent in how it noses down and rolls at the top with power.
I'm talking about something different though. Imagine the aircraft going vertical, hitting the top of the climb slightly past vertical, and being unpowered.
The aircraft noses over the top (falling with wings inverted with respect to the horizon). However, the aircraft has NO forward airspeed.
At this point, the aircraft has its wings more or less level with the horizon (though inverted attitude so the ground is "above" you). It is not going forward, it is falling straight DOWN, but with nose pointed at the horizon. The aircraft's nose also yaws in one direction with a predictable (though rather slow) frequency. You can get out of this by simply turning on throttle.
Have you ever found any application for something like this?
Yes yes yes......you have discovered it. This is how you control the turn at the top in very slow rolling scissors.
What you are doing is bunting the nose forward just before the plane has zero airspeed. You need enough speed to still have elevator authority. The plane comes to a stall upright and if done correctly will fall out of the sky into a canopy up flat spin....like spits do.
In a series of vertical rolling scissors...the kind that develop on the deck, you go up and try to roll over and come down with a shot. Typically the bandit is at the bottom of his dive and is trying to pull up for his rollover.
When this is happening you usually have very low airspeed on the top. EXACTLY the same thing is happening here as if you were practicing the way I said. THe difference is your doing it over and over on each scissor.
By getting your nose up to almost vertical and holding for the stall you can bunt the nose forward, roll left and push/jam the throttle on. This flips the plane over and down. You use rudder...sometimes opposite (right in this case) to help stabilize the maneuver.
If you pulled to vert to zero and let the tail slide you will go into a falling spin. Easy to get out of but you loose a lot of alt recovering and loose sight of the bandit and loose any position you had.
If you stall as you describe you can flip over to guns, shoot, nose back down for speed and up again, on the way back up you pull the throttle off, bunt the nose forward, slam throttle on and get guns again. Sometimes you are so slow doing this kind of scissor that you have all flaps out and wep on using every bit of lift and power you have. If you pulled the throttle off now you would just fall out like a rock and crash. So you do the same thing but count on the tork to roll the plane over...and it will...you also have to use full left rudder to speed the "tork roll" up. Sometimes you do have to "work" the throttle on/off different amounts to control the plane. If done correctly you can use just the engine and rudder to make each vertical reversal. The amount of tork you use and amount of rudder is dependant on where you want to go. Its a balance. If you manage to low wing stall and snap the plane doing this you can easily spin out of control. It is necessary to use the rudder and different amounts of power to control the plane. With practice you can do it so good you can make the planes nose point anywhere you want.
If you pull to vert and go over the 90 deg mark where the canopy is beginng to point toward the ground and then stall with the canopy 20 deg over the top you will go into a falling roll...you can convert this to a "falling leaf" if you control it.
THis is a kind of modified tail slide where the plane begins to slide on the tail slightly inverted but the plane rolls as it falls. Again you can use tork and rudder to do get your nose pointed where you want it. This is a no airspeed maneuver and you loose alot of alt but there are times when it is useful.
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You might find this article useful.
http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule8.html (http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule8.html)
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Agent,
Thank you for the detailed explanation. I think you have shown me some of this before. At the time we were just hanging the plane by the prop and then using the torque to roll it and drop down the nose down in a hammerhead like maneuver, but now I see how to connect that with a rolling scissors for the advantage.
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You might find this article useful.
http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule8.html (http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule8.html)
For some reason I couldnt get this site to display!!
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For some reason I couldnt get this site to display!!
I just checked and it comes up. Try again. The link is good.
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Thx agent,it was a prob on my end.....doh...cupid stomputers!
:salute
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Yes yes yes......you have discovered it. This is how you control the turn at the top in very slow rolling scissors.
(rest cut out for space)
Wow, didn't realize the kind of mushing behavior was more desirable than pulling up and all the way over the top, but I can definitely see the application. It's a VERY fast nose down as compared to pulling over the top.
Since you are completely vertical (or nearly so), you can easily control the direction you come down by simply rolling the wings. You can roll in the vertical to place your lift vector opposite the bandit and then bunt the nose with full forward stick (controlling with rudder and throttle) to achieve a rapid nose down.
The second maneuver I described seems to be a variation on the falling leaf. It's a flat-spinning falling leaf with canopy down. The airplane's nose goes down slightly, the air flow hits the wings, and raises them back up a bit and to the side... this repeats... vaguely like a leaf falling.
I can actually get this fairly consistently, although it seems there's less combat application. It can certainly confuse your opponent though.
You might find this article useful.
http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule8.html (http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule8.html)
I really need to get some rudder pedals... twist rudder doesn't give near enough fine control.
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Agent,
When I try to do this step..
Fourth, bring the plane to verticle at full power, before the power on stall pull the throttle off push the stick forward and then push the throttle to full power with full right rudder. The plane will magically glide over inverted.
the plane rolls several times before the nose drops down to a recoverable position. What am I doing wrong?
Also, it appears that I have to pull off throttle at the stall then gracefully bring the throttle back up so that the nose of the plane drops and rolls at a synchronized pace. When I do this though the roll is not as fast.
Thanks
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Agent, could u post a short film of how it looks like when done properly? You could even narrate it like you did before with previous films. Tks
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Agent,
When I try to do this step..
the plane rolls several times before the nose drops down to a recoverable position. What am I doing wrong?
Also, it appears that I have to pull off throttle at the stall then gracefully bring the throttle back up so that the nose of the plane drops and rolls at a synchronized pace. When I do this though the roll is not as fast.
Thanks
Ardy, I'm not Agent, but I believe the idea here is more to familiarize yourself with the airplane behavior near stall in the vertical. I don't think there is one "exactly correct" version of this maneuver - rather a continuum that you have to learn to control for your own benefit. If you need to point more to the left for example, you would use more engine power. If you need to point down, but not straight down in the recovery, pop out some flaps... etc
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Agent,
When I try to do this step..
the plane rolls several times before the nose drops down to a recoverable position. What am I doing wrong?
Also, it appears that I have to pull off throttle at the stall then gracefully bring the throttle back up so that the nose of the plane drops and rolls at a synchronized pace. When I do this though the roll is not as fast.
Thanks
You have found out how to handle it. You are correct.
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Ardy, I'm not Agent, but I believe the idea here is more to familiarize yourself with the airplane behavior near stall in the vertical. I don't think there is one "exactly correct" version of this maneuver - rather a continuum that you have to learn to control for your own benefit. If you need to point more to the left for example, you would use more engine power. If you need to point down, but not straight down in the recovery, pop out some flaps... etc
Yes, the drill is to teach how the plane handles in verticle stall.
Boomerlu has the point. :aok
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I'm finding the throttle-off then throttle-on bunt for nose down to be incredibly useful. It lets you squeeze every last ounce of vertical out of your plane and then nose down in a hurry.
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This bump was for a very interested student in the Training Arena.
Apologies all.
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Hell man, don't apologise Del, this was a great thread. I, for one, found it very helpful for a couple of things. I'm always very happy to see the good threads like this one crop up again. I find that for myself at least I can usually learn something new out of re-reading stuff I thought I already had down. Thanks for bumping it.
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Agent I might need to kidnap you into the TA for some freshning up soon. :aok
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I would most definetly join that group :)
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I believe this film shows what Boomerlu was talking about. The spin is completely controlled and as he said can be recovered by simply adding power and getting the nose low. If you watch from above or below the aircraft with trails on you see that there is 0 forward airspeed. Also the yaw rate is controllable to some extent by use of left rudder.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/yxmqn5ma4m5/109 spin.ahf
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That film didn't work for me. It would open, but everything looked like night, and it simply wouldn't play at all. I think I know the maneuver well enough, because I use it too, but I'm looking for pointers to refine it some. Any ideas on getting the film to work right for me?
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bump (because 109's :rock )
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bump (because 109's :rock )
:rofl I have to agree, I did just see that ardy always likes to roll left......makes you predictable, look at your opponents flight path to judge which way you wanna roll up top, the counter for the guy coming up(for me) is to pull to the side he isnt rolling towards :salute
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:rofl I have to agree, I did just see that ardy always likes to roll left......makes you predictable, look at your opponents flight path to judge which way you wanna roll up top, the counter for the guy coming up(for me) is to pull to the side he isnt rolling towards :salute
get a 109 k4/g14, go vert at under 100 mph, try and roll right quickly, see what happens ;) .... (yeah you can do it with a snap roll, but it can be a little less smooth).
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Ardy, cut throttle full right rudder and right roll......it will go over to the right. If it doesnt and is about to stall I push straight forward on the stick and flatten my nose to get airspeed
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Why not just roll left until you've rolled yourself over 270 degrees. Rolls a lot quicker under 100mph and sometimes tricks the guy following ya. :) Sneaky sneaky.
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Why not just roll left until you've rolled yourself over 270 degrees. Rolls a lot quicker under 100mph and sometimes tricks the guy following ya. :) Sneaky sneaky.
Better Shot OP.....You roll right at the top slower you can position your nose to take a rolling left tator shot kinda like the one in Grizz's 30MM thread, Im telling you rolling left is harder if the enemy plane notices that all you do. Ill just go wide right on you everytime till you burn your E from doing the 270 rolls......from what I understand you burn more E upside down
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Won't dispute anything until I try out a few things to see what you mean. I always figured rolling against the torque burned more E than rolling with it though...
On another note, I just finally read the discussion at the top and now I have a few things to practice tonight after class. Thanks Agent.
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Won't dispute anything until I try out a few things to see what you mean. I always figured rolling against the torque burned more E than rolling with it though...
On another note, I just finally read the discussion at the top and now I have a few things to practice tonight after class. Thanks Agent.
You lose alt when you roll completely over too :aok
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Why not just roll left until you've rolled yourself over 270 degrees. Rolls a lot quicker under 100mph and sometimes tricks the guy following ya. :) Sneaky sneaky.
This is something hardly ever mentioned.
In a flat turn one circle fight where the bandit is behind your 3-9 line it is faster to reverse direction by pulling NOSE DOWN canopy and rolling. Typically we reverse canopy up. As in flying in a right hand turn, now you break hard the opposite direction. Normally you roll the plane left canopy up and pull to make the 180 deg turn. However, you reverse just as well if you do the very same thing but roll the canopy inverted and pull the turn. You doing the same thing. The first way you fight gravity. The second way you get a gravity assist.
Now, consider what is actually happening in a "tork roll". The pure verticle variant actually inverts your plane and swings the nose around to guns. This is the same thing as doing it in a flat turn except your not going for guns your going for an angle that closes to guns.
As for rolling right in a 109..no problem.
The trick is to stall the low wing by yawing the nose with hard right rudder and pulling back on the stick. The plane will snap over to the right. You only want to snap it partially. Enough to get the plane pointed off the right. Then roll in. You can actually do this with a full snap but its tricky.
The second way is to use the throttle. You really need to think ahead. Get your wep on a second or 2 before you maneuver. To turn you slam the throttle off, full right rudder, roll right and push the nose forward a bit.
When max tork is on the plane, immediatly cutting power jerks the plane to the right, You want to time this with your rudder and roll.
Also when your going verticle with wep on and you have to turn to the right start to roll to the right verrrry slighty and corret with opposite rudder. Kind of getting on the starting line for the start. If you already have the controls prepped and ready as soon as the bandit wings over the the right you can execute your right wingover almost at the same time.
Finally, when I am very very slow like approaching slow speed stall at less than 80 mph in rolling scissors I always reverse direction canopy down. I can roll my plane over inverted (via a tork roll or snap roll) but sometimes you can not roll your plane canopy up without going into a tail slide. You will be surprised how low to the ground you can be and still reverse canopy down. If you can tight barrel roll all the way down the runway 100 feet you can do it canopy down.
Now, if you have read this far I have little secret for you. Your gonna like this. Fly level at about 300 mph. Wep on. Pull the plane up to about a 75 degree climb....or almost strait up but not quite. Hit the SHIFT+X keys for "auto angle". let go of the stick. Let the plane climb until it power on stalls. Dont touch anything. After the plane begins to roll and stall ....DONT TOUCH ANYTHING....just keep watching....hehehehehe...repo rt back your findings. You will be surprised. Keep an eye on your gauges too (alt and speed)
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I think I get what you're saying, hitting wep for two seconds before pulling off seems to rock the nose ever so slightly right. I did manage to get the right wing stalled and snapped it over 90 degrees no problem. Thanks for the info, it's gonna take some practice to get the hang of following the procedure, but I'll be working on it.
As for the experiment... I had two things happen.
1) First few times I had it climbing until it reached about 110-115IAS before (the left wing?) stalled out, flipped over inverted very cleanly then sort of split-Sed back upright in a very shallow dive almost 180 degrees in the opposite direction.
2) The next few times it seemed to roll a complete 360 degrees and climb leftward for a bit... then snapped over again... rinse repeat.
Both were really interesting.
Was in a G-14 btw.
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Okay. I figured out why I was getting two different results. The first occurrence happens when climbing 45-50 degrees up. The second is closer to 90 (75-80ish).
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Ok here is the deal
Films!!!!!
auto_1 - I climb from level at 300 mph to 80 deg up. Wep on. I don't touch anything. Notice the plane makes several rotations before recovering. Also notice that in all three films the plane recovers in the same direction it stalled from. Use my view and pay attention to where the sun is...this is important.
auto_2 - This time I take the wep off as the plane stalls and rolls. I only use wep on and off. I am also going vert at about 250 instead of 300
auto_3 - Now for the surprise...which was not discovered....so far anyway.... Watch the gauges and listen to the throttle. As the plane stalls and rolls I pull the throttle off equal to the stall roll. As the plane rolls I match the roll rate with reduction of throttle. You will also notice that instead of rolling over 2 or 3 times I am able to totally control the plane using ONLY the throttle (and wep). I am able to make the plane roll only ONCE and climb again. Each time I climb higher and higher while maintaining speed.
The auto pilot is controlling the plane but I am controlling the tork of the engine..... :O :O :O :O :O
The purpose of this is to teach you how tork controls the plane. In these films I NEVER touched the stick...ONLY THE THROTTLE and WEP.
Try this for yourself....do it using the throttle to control the roll and climb of the plane. After a few minutes you will see the light young grasshoppers.
auto_1.ahf (http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/auto_1.ahf)
auto_2.ahf (http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/auto_2.ahf)
auto_3.ahf (http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/auto_3.ahf)
hehehe...pretty cool hea.
I do this sometimes in the MA over a hord. I just use the throttle to controll the reverse. If it doesn't look right I let the plane climb...if when I rev over and there is a target in guns I grab the stick and use rudder and throttle to dive right into guns and boooooooom.
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Hey agent thanks for all the help.
do you have any films of you using this in a dog fight?
Im trying to understand better when to use it, and maybe how to set it up.
I had a film of you doing this move to me where you come right though my cockpit and killz me with a tater. I just cant find it.
Ive been working on the move but cant get enough seperation and the other guys usually nose up making it more of a vert ho move for me.
Thnks.
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Sonicblu he posted them right there in his post
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AH is whatched films 1 2 and 3 firedrgn. Im asking for a film of a dogfight. Where this move is used. To help me see how to set it up. :D
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Dang I missed that... I might have to change my name to "Patrick"
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:salute
it says that kapitza p. k. was invited to swim by some friends :x but he did not know how to swim. :eek:
so he read a book on swimming and his friends joke him obviously. at the sea or in a lake (not remember exactly), all friends watched, he went into the water first time and ... he start to swim not so bad !!! :O - ADVICE: all young people not follow this example, it works, if it works truly, for very few like kapitza p. k. REST OF US GO DOWN LIKE A STONE!
TY AGENT360 FOR THIS POST :aok
:salute
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I will try to film some tork roll kills tonight.
The move is also useful for strait line overshoots...got to have the timing down to get the kill as they go by.
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Agent,
This is really good stuff.. Should be a sticky.. I've been trying to learn everything I can about the 109g2 g14 and K.. Not sure why but I just like the feel of them the best..
One thing though, I can't seem to play any of the film posted by you or Junky and I'm not sure why.. does anyone have any insight here? Thanks again for all the great info.
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They may be old versions.......I have problems watching some of my films from a few months ago :salute
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I cant seem to watch any of them....viewer just blanks out then crashes.
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Guys, you don't really need films for this, follow the instructions he stated, and you'll get it. Also, once you have it down, experiment with..
1) forcing wing tip stalls and using the toque roll the nose to where u wanan go quickly. Also, try adding some rudder into it, aka, try and slam the nose up with the rudder and use the engine torque to roll the plane as its vert, then quickly have the nose drop and recover.
2) go to the TA and go fly through the hangers. At the top, do a hammerhead (where the plane yaws at the top for a 90deg reversal), and go inbetween the two bomber hangers. Try doing the hammerheads on both the right and left sides.
3) Mix the hammerheads with a flat scissors and see how much e you can retain.
4) do all the steps above again but using only half throttle.
5) then da creton and have him slap you around. ;)
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No not really. They all have good tork. I would say the F4 and G2 are the easiest to do it in. The K4 is harder because it stalls more and has more tork making it hard to control at stall speed. The others tend to be more forgiving. The K4 will just spin out of controll and flop all over unless you realllllllly practice controlling it at stall.
This happens to me all the time with the K4 (when I do strap into it). I get a great rope but hold it to long, lose control, and the shot, and eventually the fight. :)
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I need to punt this again for a student in the TA.
Apologies all.
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I need to punt this again for a student in the TA.
Apologies all.
All good, but arent the SAPP guys going to stone you for teaching someone how to fly the arch enemy of the P38? :D
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I need to punt this again for a student in the TA.
Apologies all.
Delirium, so when are we gonna da? I wanna fight ya! :rock
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maybe someone with the old viewer would be willing to fraps the narrated ones and throw them on youtube...? NOt so worried about the torque roll, as I have now augered myself approx 500 times into the ground trying to learn it and I am pretty sure I have the hang of it, more worried about the other films.