Author Topic: 109 torque initiated rolls  (Read 7427 times)

Offline Ardy123

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109 torque initiated rolls
« on: August 28, 2009, 03:17:01 PM »
Often times in fights I find myself engaged in rolling scissors and often I find that at some point I'm able to get the advantage, at least momentarily via rolling at the top very quickly due to the engine torque.  I am kinda able to set it up by always rolling to the left but when I try and purposely cause a roll using my engine torque I can never seem to do it or control it. Obviously, I would like to beable to do it on command, but how? what are the necessary pre-conditions (other than going slow and throttling up the engine)? Is it related to trim? etc...

Thanks
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Offline Steve

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 03:43:01 PM »
Well if you have auto trim on it's going to fight that roll if it's not a result of stick force.
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Offline moot

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 03:45:19 PM »
Practice..  And post film here so we can help you in detail.
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Offline Bosco123

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 04:30:37 PM »
If your going full, don't. That will slow the torque down quite a bit.
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Offline Lazerr

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2009, 04:42:03 PM »
I havent been in 109 much at all, but I think of using the prop to roll my like a wound rubber band.

Offline Agent360

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 07:04:55 PM »
Ardy,

You are pulling to verticle, stalling the wings. When both wings stall the tork takes over and rolls the plane to the left because you have lost all lift. As this happens the low wing (left wing) goes to full stall and snaps the plane over. When the snaps occurs it just slings your plane over into a spinning roll. This is what happens in the uncontrolled version.

It is possible to stall both wings together. However most of the time when in a verticle stalling positon the natural roll of the plane due to engine tork rolls the plane to the left, dropping the left wing first which causes a stall of that wing. The high wing is traveling a longer arc and the low wing is almost standing still. This immediatly causes a low wing stall. The high wing has lift pushing the right side up and the low wing looses lift. This imbalance combined with tork throws the plane over into a snap roll to the left.

If you want to learn how to control this and use it to your advantage may I suggest a few drills.

First, learn to take the plane to a perfect 90 deg climb (strait up) at full throttle (no wep). You will find that the plane will attempt to roll left when airspeed drops below about 80 mph. This is called a "power ON stall". Use rudder and aileron to keep the plane verticle as long as possible while keeping the throttle at full power. Do not use flaps. Simply practice going 90 deg vert and keeping that as long as possible. If you do this a few times you will find that the plane does EXACTLY the same thing every time. You will have to do it more than 10 times atleast.

Second, Do exactly the same thing except watch your air speed....or atleast be aware of it. At 100 mph pull (not chop) the throttle off to zero. This is called a "power off stall". Again keep the plane verticle using rudder and aileron.

Note the difference in behavior of the plane between power on stall and power off stall.

Third, Do both power on and power of stalls but this time push the stick forward at the stall...the point at which the plane naturally rolls no matter what you do.

Fourth, bring the plane to verticle at full power, before the power on stall pull the throttle off push the stick forward and then push the throttle to full power with full right rudder. The plane will magically glide over inverted.

Fifth, Do step #4 and pop 2 nothces of flaps as you go inverted. The flaps will swing your nose down into a 45 deg line headed to the ground.

Now, after you have practiced this for a few hours you will then do this all over again but begin by leveling out at about 250 mph and going verticle using half throttle. You now do #1 to #5 AT HALF THROTTLE. This means your power on stall will be at half throttle. As the plane stalls and you begin to "mush" push the throttle to full power and the plane will just go right over. Use a little rudder (right or left..which ever one you need to point the nose) to control the nose. At this point you will find that pushing and pulling the throttle on and off will spin your nose around in an arc sufficient to bring you around, nose down in a controlled fashion.

At first do all this with plenty of alt...say 2k or so.

When you can do this on the deck without crashing you have mastered the "magic move"

I recommend you do this over an airfield using the runway as a reference. This will help you orientate yourself to what your plane is doing.




















Offline Black Jack

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 07:33:12 PM »
Agent, that is excellent info. Does it matter which variance of 109 you do that manoeuver with or it's all the same basic thing just more or less input throttle/rudder/ailerons/from the pilot? I know u fly the K4 a lot but what about the 109F. Tks

Black70

Offline Agent360

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 09:01:14 PM »
Agent, that is excellent info. Does it matter which variance of 109 you do that manoeuver with or it's all the same basic thing just more or less input throttle/rudder/ailerons/from the pilot? I know u fly the K4 a lot but what about the 109F. Tks

Black70

No not really. They all have good tork. I would say the F4 and G2 are the easiest to do it in. The K4 is harder because it stalls more and has more tork making it hard to control at stall speed. The others tend to be more forgiving. The K4 will just spin out of controll and flop all over unless you realllllllly practice controlling it at stall.

Offline boomerlu

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2009, 05:13:51 AM »
Agent, I practiced your suggested exercises for vertical stall handling, they are great and very instructive on the aircraft's performance envelope. By accident, I found that I could :O intentionally :O enter into a flat spin by going slightly past vertical then powering-off.

I'm guessing you've observed the same thing. Have you ever found any combat application for such a move?
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Offline onan

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 08:48:53 AM »
The instructions you gave are cool Agent :aok

I've been flying the Jug for weeks now (D-25 mainly)
Am getting used to getting it verticle but can't get a nice turn at he top.
Just seems to hang sideways then flop and spin.
Have been using your speeds that you gave for the K-4.
Should I change them.  Is there a different approach to this move in the Jug?
I don't usally fight in the vert' with this plane but would be a good tool to have.

Thanks

KlunK

Offline Agent360

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2009, 11:44:25 AM »
The instructions you gave are cool Agent :aok

I've been flying the Jug for weeks now (D-25 mainly)
Am getting used to getting it verticle but can't get a nice turn at he top.
Just seems to hang sideways then flop and spin.
Have been using your speeds that you gave for the K-4.
Should I change them.  Is there a different approach to this move in the Jug?
I don't usally fight in the vert' with this plane but would be a good tool to have.

Thanks

KlunK
In the jug you will have to  use more rudder at the top and start the wing over before you stall.

Offline Agent360

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 11:54:46 AM »
Agent, I practiced your suggested exercises for vertical stall handling, they are great and very instructive on the aircraft's performance envelope. By accident, I found that I could :O intentionally :O enter into a flat spin by going slightly past vertical then powering-off.

I'm guessing you've observed the same thing. Have you ever found any combat application for such a move?
No if its uncontrolled. But if you practice feathering the throttle on or off and use rudder you will find that you can control the stall. I use the stick forward in a spin to create verticle overshoots. Its like a neg barrel roll. As the bandit comes up the pipe I do the move and he flys right by.To him I just suddenly dissappear from sight. Sometime if they panic and roll over you can shoot them after you have snap rolled to upright or get them on the way down.

Offline boomerlu

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 07:11:37 PM »
No if its uncontrolled. But if you practice feathering the throttle on or off and use rudder you will find that you can control the stall. I use the stick forward in a spin to create verticle overshoots. Its like a neg barrel roll. As the bandit comes up the pipe I do the move and he flys right by.To him I just suddenly dissappear from sight. Sometime if they panic and roll over you can shoot them after you have snap rolled to upright or get them on the way down.

Yes, I know what you're talking about. The plane is remarkably consistent in how it noses down and rolls at the top with power.

I'm talking about something different though. Imagine the aircraft going vertical, hitting the top of the climb slightly past vertical, and being unpowered.

The aircraft noses over the top (falling with wings inverted with respect to the horizon). However, the aircraft has NO forward airspeed.

At this point, the aircraft has its wings more or less level with the horizon (though inverted attitude so the ground is "above" you). It is not going forward, it is falling straight DOWN, but with nose pointed at the horizon. The aircraft's nose also yaws in one direction with a predictable (though rather slow) frequency. You can get out of this by simply turning on throttle.

Have you ever found any application for something like this?
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Offline Agent360

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2009, 10:54:33 AM »
Yes, I know what you're talking about. The plane is remarkably consistent in how it noses down and rolls at the top with power.

I'm talking about something different though. Imagine the aircraft going vertical, hitting the top of the climb slightly past vertical, and being unpowered.

The aircraft noses over the top (falling with wings inverted with respect to the horizon). However, the aircraft has NO forward airspeed.

At this point, the aircraft has its wings more or less level with the horizon (though inverted attitude so the ground is "above" you). It is not going forward, it is falling straight DOWN, but with nose pointed at the horizon. The aircraft's nose also yaws in one direction with a predictable (though rather slow) frequency. You can get out of this by simply turning on throttle.

Have you ever found any application for something like this?

Yes yes yes......you have discovered it. This is how you control the turn at the top in very slow rolling scissors.

What you are doing is bunting the nose forward just before the plane has zero airspeed. You need enough speed to still have elevator authority. The plane comes to a stall upright and if done correctly will fall out of the sky into a canopy up flat spin....like spits do.

In a series of vertical rolling scissors...the kind that develop on the deck, you go up and try to roll over and come down with a shot. Typically the bandit is at the bottom of his dive and is trying to pull up for his rollover.

When this is happening you usually have very low airspeed on the top. EXACTLY the same thing is happening here as if you were practicing the way I said. THe difference is your doing it over and over on each scissor.

By getting your nose up to almost vertical and holding for the stall you can bunt the nose forward, roll left and push/jam the throttle on. This flips the plane over and down. You use rudder...sometimes opposite (right in this case) to help stabilize the maneuver.

If you pulled to vert to zero and let the tail slide you will go into a falling spin. Easy to get out of but you loose a lot of alt recovering and loose sight of the bandit and loose any position you had.

If you stall as you describe you can flip over to guns, shoot, nose back down for speed and up again, on the way back up you pull the throttle off, bunt the nose forward, slam throttle on and get guns again. Sometimes you are so slow doing this kind of scissor that you have all flaps out and wep on using every bit of lift and power you have. If you pulled the throttle off now you would just fall out like a rock and crash. So you do the same thing but count on the tork to roll the plane over...and it will...you also have to use full left rudder to speed the "tork roll" up. Sometimes you do have to "work" the throttle on/off different amounts to control the plane. If done correctly you can use just the engine and rudder to make each vertical reversal. The amount of tork you use and amount of rudder is dependant on where you want to go. Its a balance. If you manage to low wing stall and snap the plane doing this you can easily spin out of control. It is necessary to use the rudder and different amounts of power to control the plane. With practice you can do it so good you can make the planes nose point anywhere you want.

If you pull to vert and go over the 90 deg mark where the canopy is beginng to point toward the ground and then stall with the canopy 20 deg over the top you will go into a falling roll...you can convert this to a "falling leaf" if you control it.

 THis is a kind of modified tail slide where the plane begins to slide on the tail slightly inverted but the plane rolls as it falls. Again you can use tork and rudder to do get your nose pointed where you want it. This is a no airspeed maneuver and you loose alot of alt but there are times when it is useful.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 11:24:41 AM by Agent360 »

Offline Agent360

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2009, 11:16:49 AM »
You might find this article useful.

http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule8.html