Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Ardy123 on September 22, 2009, 01:00:02 PM
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When pulling a rolling scissors, what tricks do you guys/gals, used to bleed e at the top and cause an overshoot. I've tried slipping the rudder but that doesn't appear to bleed enough.
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Cutting throttle and cross controlling (skidding) pretty much as the same effect as dropping an anchor out the window. If that's not slowing you down enough then there's probably something else ACM/geometry wise that you should look at.
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When pulling a rolling scissors, what tricks do you guys/gals, used to bleed e at the top and cause an overshoot. I've tried slipping the rudder but that doesn't appear to bleed enough.
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/rollingscissors/rollingscissors.htm
According to this, you don't want to bleed E to force an overshoot - instead you want to hang vertical longer in the scissors. Typically I will simply fly lag pursuit for a few revolutions and then suddenly I "see" the shot (e.g. we've created enough distance that I can finally cut across the barrel and get guns on in time) at which point I'll convert to lead.
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http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/rollingscissors/rollingscissors.htm
According to this, you don't want to bleed E to force an overshoot - instead you want to hang vertical longer in the scissors. Typically I will simply fly lag pursuit for a few revolutions and then suddenly I "see" the shot (e.g. we've created enough distance that I can finally cut across the barrel and get guns on in time) at which point I'll convert to lead.
Ok let me describe a situation, someone is 'co-e' with you and on your six, so...
1) turn to the left
2) as they turn to left too, to follow you, you roll and turn to the right and now we're in a flat scissors.
3) as you prepare to reverse to left again, instead you go up, and then roll to a) cause an overshoot, b) to initiate a rolling scissors.
4) If I can bleed enough e, they will blow past me then pull up and I have the adv in the rolling scissors cuz now I'm on their six.
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Ok let me describe a situation, someone is 'co-e' with you and on your six, so...
1) turn to the left
2) as they turn to left too, to follow you, you roll and turn to the right and now we're in a flat scissors.
3) as you prepare to reverse to left again, instead you go up, and then roll to a) cause an overshoot, b) to initiate a rolling scissors.
4) If I can bleed enough e, they will blow past me then pull up and I have the adv in the rolling scissors cuz now I'm on their six.
Ok that makes more sense but consider this:
He who wins the rolling scissors is the one who manages E the best. Now, you make no reference to the skill of your opponent, but if he's good, once he recognizes the rolling scissors he will fly as I've mentioned, being very conservative with his E and flying lag pursuit until he sees the shot. Or he will just climb higher than you and wait for you to stall out as you've now dumped E.
Now understandably you want to force an overshoot first. Well... flaps, rudder, gear, throttle chopping. All work. But once you force that overshoot, E management has to be top priority. But also consider that going up is very dangerous - it leaves you extremely slow with a full planform shot for your opponent.
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But also consider that going up is very dangerous - it leaves you extremely slow with a full planform shot for your opponent.
In the situation I described what other maneuvers would you recommend? a split s do gain e and create distance?
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In the situation I described what other maneuvers would you recommend? a split s do gain e and create distance?
I am just a middle of the road cartoon 38 pilot but here is my take on it.
You have to watch the other guy and decide what his intentions are and react quickly.
Do not get in a hurry to dump your E. Do it gradually and conserve all you can without moving out front. The trick is to keep all the E you can while keeping the other guy in control. You can dump E fast... but if you miss your shot then he will climb and have the advantage putting you defensive in a low E state.
On some occassions the con might try to dump fast. If he does you need to already know if your going to try to beat him to stall or go to plan B.
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Put your gear out... :aok
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Put your gear out... :aok
WRONG ............ use a steeper angle........ as Shuffler mentioned YOU DO NOT WANT TO BLOW ALL YOUR E(NERGY) early on ..... you want to maintain your Speed but reduce your forward motion.......... dropping gear blows too much energy and will leave you without options......
Ardy, you have not told us what plane you are flying or what planes you are maneuvering against......
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In the situation I described what other maneuvers would you recommend? a split s do gain e and create distance?
If you are looking to dump E and create overshoot, I'd probably do a flat scissors with just a smidgen of vertical thrown in to make the guns solution harder. Something else to try is a throttle off spiral dive. In all cases, the attacker can go vertical and re-attack if he knows what he's doing. The difference is that in a flat scissors (as opposed to the climb you suggested), you stand less chance of being shot as you initiate the overshoot attempt.
Keep in mind the climb may still work depending on your airspeed. The slower you are, the worse of an idea it is. You have to have enough speed (i.e. maneuvering ability) to deny your opponent the shot when you climb.
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Ardy, you have not told us what plane you are flying or what planes you are maneuvering against......
I usually fly 109s, hence the desire to force a rolling scissors (take adv of my climb rate).
The case that came to mind was from last night fighting against a ki-61 & a Nik.
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Ok let me describe a situation, someone is 'co-e' with you and on your six, so...
1) turn to the left
2) as they turn to left too, to follow you, you roll and turn to the right and now we're in a flat scissors.
3) as you prepare to reverse to left again, instead you go up, and then roll to a) cause an overshoot, b) to initiate a rolling scissors.
4) If I can bleed enough e, they will blow past me then pull up and I have the adv in the rolling scissors cuz now I'm on their six.
Ardy,
What you are describing is not rolling scissors.
You are describing a situation where you have been caught with the bandit d600 to d800 out from your six and looking to close the distance for guns when you turn.
The overshoot you describe is not done by forcing a verticle overshoot.
In order to pull this off you must use angles.
After you have initiated a flat scissor and got him to begin break turning you should now be looking for a way to get your wing pointed directly at him. This creates a 90 deg angle off tail from you (like a T-bone accident). To do this you often have to get slower, for the moment, than the bandit.
First rule is to always force him to turn with nose up. To do this we turn hard into the bandit..bandit closes for guns...immediatly roll FLAT (this points the wing at him) Because he turned into you for a shot he is actually giving you some angles. Now you have your wing at him and immediatly pull up to verticle. THis pull up causes a temporary overshoot past your low six. You can now roll over either in loose barrel or tight stall at top.
Once you have created this low six overshoot you goal now should be to get all the energy you can.
After you roll over he may very will be pointing his nose up for a shot. If so roll back into him to avoid the guns.
THe bandit will most likely have pulled back up after the low six overshoot.
You are nose down now. Convert this to all the energy you can get by flying past him, look back, what ever way he turns you tun the same way forcing the bandit to continue a hard verticle turn to get back on your six. As he does this he is #1 loosing closure and #2 not gaining his E back as fast as you are.
Keep a wide energy gaining flat turn. As soon as he drops his nose to close in a low yoyo you then break hard into and fly UNDER his nose...continue strait for seperation and go strait verticle eeking out every bit of energy you have in the verticle.
If you have timed this right you will most likely be in control on top.
The object is not to actually force a pure slow speed overshoot but to place your plane at 90 deg angles to him when he drops his nose again for a shot. You can easily fly out of guns very fast giving him a very difficult shot.
As the bandit takes these shots he is pulling hard to get the lead while you are just zooming past his guns at 90 degrees. A few of these and you should have equaled the situation if not gained the top postioin out right.
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If you have timed this right you will most likely be in control on top.
I never quite knew what it was about having your bandit stall out underneath you that was so powerful until I watched a few films of duels I had.
If he stalls out directly underneath you, you are totally in control because no matter which direction he tries to recover, you can easily follow him by simpling rolling to place your lift vector on his flight path.
Even with some horizontal separation and bad angles, a properly used vertical reversal can be extremely effective. Props to you Agent on all that info in the "fake rope" thread.
By the way, by vertical reversal, I (and Agent as well I think) do not mean an overshoot. The bandit never flies past you to the front. It looks somewhat like this:
Before the stall
^ - that's you
^ - that's him
After the stall
v - that's still you
v - that's still him
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you want to maintain your Speed but reduce your forward motion..........
So far as I have read and learned, every scissors fight is about reducing forward motion.
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Ardy,
Something I took from a scissors post was working to get 2 planes behind your opponent. I almost try flat turning at the top to attampt to go the opposite direction which almost always gets me going sideways. I suggest a steeper climb in a 109 though Im almost always in my KI ;)
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..... you want to maintain your Speed but reduce your forward motion..........
Absolutely. Keep this simple mantra in mind: Displace, so you don't have to replace.
Displace: do something to increase the distance you travel, whether by increasing the radius of your rolling scissor or by going up more.... etc
so you don't have to replace: Energy.
In a fight where you are 1v1 and going to be that way for some time, you could get away with scrubbing E by one of several methods if you can make your shot count on the overshoot. If you miss your shot opportunity, you can quickly become very disadvantaged. If there are multiple bad guys, this is even more problematic.
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When pulling a rolling scissors, what tricks do you guys/gals, used to bleed e at the top and cause an overshoot. I've tried slipping the rudder but that doesn't appear to bleed enough.
I just level out and I'm soon bleeding....er.... that is what you were asking right? Tricks for bleeding? :)
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lol
hey Ardy, here is a K4 sortie from furball lake from about a month ago or so (you're in the background :)). I was rusty and just wanted a warmup but things got quite fun.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/k4_dweebery.ahf
Lots of little speed management and angles descisions going on, some good 1 vs 1 fights with spits n stuff. It might help just to search though it to get some ideas.
S!
batfink
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lol
hey Ardy, here is a K4 sortie from furball lake from about a month ago or so (you're in the background :)). I was rusty and just wanted a warmup but things got quite fun.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/k4_dweebery.ahf
Lots of little speed management and angles descisions going on, some good 1 vs 1 fights with spits n stuff. It might help just to search though it to get some ideas.
S!
batfink
bat why is the film saved as k4 dweebery? you gots a problem wit k4s juuuuuu :t ?
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It's a dweeb ride through and through suh, but then i class the mossy as a dweeb ride too! :D
One of the best planes in the game imo, the K4 is.
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It's a dweeb ride through and through suh, but then i class the mossy as a dweeb ride too! :D
One of the best planes in the game imo, the K4 is.
Mossy > K4 :D
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Well this isn't a rolling scisscors. In fact I'm not sure it's applicable here but this is a move I've used effectively for years: It's a double reverse split s or maybe more appropriately a double half Immel.
As long as you have enough E to start with pull up into an Immelman. At the top roll upright and pull into a second Immel. Most pilots lose you as you reverse into the second Immel. If they don't they pull the nose striaght up and hang on the prop. You'll be very very slow over the top of the second Immel and might have to use flaps to get over but your reverse will be very tight. If you're lucky you'll find your prey hanging on his prop ready to flop over below you. If your not as lucky you'll reverse onto his six.
You'll want an opening E advantage to do this (or possibly co-E with specific plane match-ups). You'll be dead if you try this at an E disadvantage.
It's a complex variation of the rope a dope and works well with an E advantage against one on multiple opponents letting you pick your target on the downswing.
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lol
hey Ardy, here is a K4 sortie from furball lake from about a month ago or so (you're in the background :)). I was rusty and just wanted a warmup but things got quite fun.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/k4_dweebery.ahf
Lots of little speed management and angles descisions going on, some good 1 vs 1 fights with spits n stuff. It might help just to search though it to get some ideas.
S!
batfink
batfink,
you did a very cool out-of-plane manuver in the fight against the nik. It was kinda like a barrel-roll. Cool vid
Ardy
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Drop throttle, Angle high, Drop flaps and over you go. Then power on and go in for kill.
Straight simple and effective. If you miss youre shot and you have no E, manouvere into a spot in which you can make him overshoot and reverse on him with all the power you have.
I do it that way but Im a spit dweeb so what do I know lol.
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Ardy,
What you are describing is not rolling scissors.
....
Going to have to keep reading this until something in my mind goes 'click'