Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: FLS on September 28, 2009, 10:36:53 AM
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If possible I would like to see the stick stirring code disabled below a threshold speed like 100 mph. I believe this would retain it's benefits and reduce it's burden.
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:aok :aok +1 :aok :aok Love it!
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:huh
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:huh
Im so confused right now.
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Im so confused right now.
He's asking the "don't move your controls so rapidly" code to be disabled if your airspeed >100mph.
I kinda like the idea, but I don't see why you'd be getting that if you're under 100, as that's "If you don't have your flaps out you're stalled" speed in most aircraft... Anywho, why not?
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Trigger2, control movements that are unlikely at higher speeds are likely when trying to recover a low airspeed stall. If you use 0 deadband and damping it's very easy to lock your controls. It's even worse with Forcefeedback when the trim forces go to 0.
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I use CH Products and I have never seen that message so I must assume it doesnt exist unless you have cheap controllers.
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Two things cause it; actual stick-stirring and potentiometers rapidly and repeatedly spiking past the dead band.
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Oh ok +1
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An idea worth looking into. +1
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I use CH Products and I have never seen that message so I must assume it doesnt exist unless you have cheap controllers.
Fail....
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Confusion cleared. A +1.
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Fail....
Strip just because you dont understand what I said to be true doesnt detract from the truth or the accuracy one bit.
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Strip just because you dont understand what I said to be true doesnt detract from the truth or the accuracy one bit.
I believe he was referring to your fanboi-ism.
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No I understand it perfectly and its epic fail.....
Any stick regardless of quality of construction or cost can get the "Do not move controls so rapidly." message.
Sorry to ruin your parade, again.
Strip
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Will do some testing to make sure it does not do anything nasty, but I would change it to a % of stall speed not a fixed speed.
HiTech
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Thanks Hitech
I fly on the edge a lot and its one of the few times I get that message. The game thinks I am stick stirring when I just trying to keep the plane going the right direction.
Strip
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No I understand it perfectly and its epic fail.....
Any stick regardless of quality of construction or cost can get the "Do not move controls so rapidly." message.
Sorry to ruin your parade, again.
Strip
Indeed, since the stick-stir disable is coded into AH. I could conceive of a situation where a cheap stick, by virtue of faulty count bounces coming from the pots, could trip a false stick message, but it also seems clear that you could overcycle, very accurately and with quality, a good stick.
Last time I drew the message, I was trying to recover a stupid f4U - which I hate - from a stall. Thus, maybe the kid's claim has merit.
That all seems plain as day.
Far more murky, however, is the word "fanboi", which, at least in my ear, screams Gay with a big flamboyant capital G.
Are we now of the opinion, or are we making the charge, that Chalenge is a "fanboi"? Where's that second "l" hiding? Strip thinks he knows.
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"CH gear has no faults and can't ever be blamed for any wrongdoing. You people with all your cheap pansy setups are the reason we can't have nice things." :) It's a trend in that community and it's tiring. Not everyone does it, obviously, but that's how I read it.
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Nevermind CH looks like it was designed in the 80's.....
:rolleyes:
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I use their proPedals and also have one of their flight sim yokes. I rarely use that yoke but the pedals are solid. Thing is, they look like they were styled in the Brezhnev-era USSR. What's up with that gray plastic? It's not like I really give one about that but better looks would speak better of the product.
As for the argument w/r drawing the code, it's a bit silly and I'm surprised it was advanced. Anything like that is indeed tiresome.
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Will do some testing to make sure it does not do anything nasty, but I would change it to a % of stall speed not a fixed speed.
HiTech
Thank you HiTech.
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"CH gear has no faults and can't ever be blamed for any wrongdoing. You people with all your cheap pansy setups are the reason we can't have nice things." :) It's a trend in that community and it's tiring. Not everyone does it, obviously, but that's how I read it.
Then its a personal issue because I fly this stick in all sorts of games and never see a 'stick spike' of any sort and yes I have done quite a bit of rapid movement so I have to believe its a cheap stick issue.
Strip: if thats what you were going for it was a complete failure so dont waste your time. Come up with a reasoned argument and maybe it will have more affect.
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Stick spiking isn't caused by the player at all. It's hardware failure. And you're right; CH potentiometers are very robust, however their hardware has a tendency to chew through its own internal wiring.
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No I understand it perfectly and its epic fail.....
Any stick regardless of quality of construction or cost can get the "Do not move controls so rapidly." message.
Sorry to ruin your parade, again.
Strip
By your message, I can only conclude you qualify as a stick stirrer. Talk about fail...
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By your message, I can only conclude you qualify as a stick stirrer. Talk about fail...
I've gotten it when trying to force my F4U out of a inverted barrel roll stall, as I have when trying to control a P-51's flat plate.
So no, you do not have to be a stick stirrer to get it.
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By your message, I can only conclude you qualify as a stick stirrer. Talk about fail...
As a matter of fact I have only received the stick stir message once in the last six months.
Happened as I was stall turning a P-51B (full flaps with 90 IAS) against a Brewster.
Back to your normal programming....
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As a matter of fact I have only received the stick stir message once in the last six months.
Happened as I was stall turning a P-51B (full flaps with 90 IAS) against a Brewster.
Back to your normal programming....
Like I said before, stop stick stirring...
Now, if you really want to fix the code, might I suggest that rather than having a speed cutoff or reduction, model the controls so they have a maximum movement speed, regardless of how fast you or any other player moves the controls. This would keep the dancing airplane syndrome to a minimum, and also keep people that think they have to yank the stick around from getting the anti-stick stir message.
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That would also limit the maneuverability of the aircraft and would be a major pain to implement...or else every aircraft would have a similar instant turn rate.
People can get the penalty for standard maneuvers, especially attempting to recover from violent spins and one-wing stalls. It comes along with flying on the edge. Why penalize that?
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That would also limit the maneuverability of the aircraft and would be a major pain to implement...or else every aircraft would have a similar instant turn rate.
People can get the penalty for standard maneuvers, especially attempting to recover from violent spins and one-wing stalls. It comes along with flying on the edge. Why penalize that?
In short, no. All aircraft like the ones we're speaking of, have a limited control movement speed due to things like momentum and control travel distance. Because of this, the pilot can only move the controls so fast, and there is a lot farther travel distance than what a typical joystick provides. Limiting the speed of the controls to be realistic is not some unreasonable request.
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In my experience, I get the penalty from many quick tiny movements, which wouldn't fall under that fix if it were made in a realistic way.
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Like I said before, stop stick stirring...
:rofl
Me thinks you have little idea what your talking about....
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Stick spiking isn't caused by the player at all. It's hardware failure. And you're right; CH potentiometers are very robust, however their hardware has a tendency to chew through its own internal wiring.
I never heard that before all I know about them is they last for a decade of constant use (and I mean constant).
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Enough about how good of quality CH products have.........
:rolleyes:
The fact is OOZ statement is partially wrong, its not always the hardware's fault. Stick spiking can be caused by rapid control movements, even on the best gear.
If you want the message take your stick, go left/right/up/down rapidly, ie stick stir....
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In short, no. All aircraft like the ones we're speaking of, have a limited control movement speed due to things like momentum and control travel distance. Because of this, the pilot can only move the controls so fast, and there is a lot farther travel distance than what a typical joystick provides. Limiting the speed of the controls to be realistic is not some unreasonable request.
Toss in the force on the stick which by FAR part 23 allows a maximum elevator-actuation force of 60 pounds on a stick or 75 pounds on a column or for prolonged application the elevator-actuation force cannot exceed 10 lbs. Its been awhile since I read it but I think the rules also say 4-10 pounds per 'g' limitation on aerobatic or fighter type aircraft but I dont know if the same rule was in force during WWII. I think even strong springs on a joystick might hit 32 ounces but thats about all.
Strip: I can do double and triple snaprolls (with hesitations) which require faster stick motion than you are using and I dont get that message because my potentiometers do not spike. Its simply because CH uses better components. This is primarily the reason some people can stir and fly away and others spiral and spin to their death. If Hitech makes a change to the code it wont make any difference to people that dont stir but the people that do (and this is where you 'fail') will have even more problems.
Have a nice day.
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The fact is OOZ statement is partially wrong, its not always the hardware's fault. Stick spiking can be caused by rapid control movements, even on the best gear.
If you want the message take your stick, go left/right/up/down rapidly, ie stick stir....
There's a difference between stick spiking and stick stirring.
Stick stirring is when the pilot rolls the stick around, usually violently either freaking out about a bandit behind him or trying to play the latency game and get his aircraft to flop all over the place on the opponent's side.
Stick spiking is a technical problem where the potentiometers in the stick no longer hold a steady voltage passthrough. You can see the effects of this by opening the joystick mapping in AH; a good, fresh stick will show very little variance in the numbers next to each axis when sitting by itself. A old, worn, or low-quality stick will show the numbers jumping all over the place, even when the joystick is neutral. That's stick spiking.
As it is, the game has no way of telling the two apart.
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Which one is Chalenge and which one is Strip? I wonder.....
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4444/computerwar.gif)
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:rofl
Me thinks you have little idea what your talking about....
Me thinks I have only gotten that message accidentally one time in 6 years, and only as a newbe that didn't know any better. Me also thinks you stir the stick, and you probably don't know any better.
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Toss in the force on the stick which by FAR part 23 allows a maximum elevator-actuation force of 60 pounds on a stick or 75 pounds on a column or for prolonged application the elevator-actuation force cannot exceed 10 lbs. Its been awhile since I read it but I think the rules also say 4-10 pounds per 'g' limitation on aerobatic or fighter type aircraft but I dont know if the same rule was in force during WWII. I think even strong springs on a joystick might hit 32 ounces but thats about all.
I believe most fighters were well above 10 lbs/G in WWII, and of course, many were quite heavy on the aileron input. The point I was trying to make, of course, is that one can move the joystick much faster on the computer than anyone could ever do in the real plane, so why not limit it's input speed? I've even had people tell me they don't like rudder pedals because they can't move them as fast as they can their twisty stick. Of course, the stick stirring crowd doesn't want any limitations, as it hinders the mixing process...
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Most often, I have this problem when trying to land a wounded bird, especially when it is missing one of its wings.
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Which one is Chalenge and which one is Strip? I wonder.....
Ha you got me!
When someone stick stirs I just sit back and laugh at them and when they stop to see whats happening they quickly go to the tower instead.
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I use CH Products and I have never seen that message so I must assume it doesnt exist unless you have cheap controllers.
:rofl
I have a CH and have not seen the message since I got rid of my old POS stick.
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See Rule #4
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Nevermind CH looks like it was designed in the 80's.....
:rolleyes:
...and made in the U.S.A. :D
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Will do some testing to make sure it does not do anything nasty, but I would change it to a % of stall speed not a fixed speed.
HiTech
Thanks HiTech, I'm sure this would be a great addition to the game.
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See Rule #2
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Will do some testing to make sure it does not do anything nasty, but I would change it to a % of stall speed not a fixed speed.
HiTech
I'd really rather see a slowing of the control surface speed to something realistic, not what we can produce with our no-load, no-distance-traveled joysticks. Unfortunately, this might not be so easy to implement.
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Thank you HiTech.
So FLS,if I understand you correct your new stick is giving you this message at low speeds?
Also,your not using any dampening or deadband? do you have scaling enabled?
I know your stick is FFB and I'm wondering if thats the issue or the settings your using.
Either way if HTC is looking into it,that sure sound good to me,btw I rarely see the "dont move" message and use very little dampening or deadband and all my sliders are set to 100% with the exception of #1 and 2 on pitch,they are set to 80% and 90% respectively.
:salute
ps: FLS keep us updated on the new stik,I'm considering getting 1 myself but after owwning a half dozen or so other product from that company I'm abit leary at this point.....
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I would think adding a little deadband and dampening would be a good thing if you are getting nose bounce at cornering speeds and especially if you are seeing messages about rapid movement.
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I'd really rather see a slowing of the control surface speed to something realistic, not what we can produce with our no-load, no-distance-traveled joysticks. Unfortunately, this might not be so easy to implement.
You see though, there is no way to replicate a pilot who has just gotten back from an eight hour mission and is dead-dog tired, so, we have to make do with our "unrealistic" pilots.
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I'd really rather see a slowing of the control surface speed to something realistic, not what we can produce with our no-load, no-distance-traveled joysticks. Unfortunately, this might not be so easy to implement.
You've been here 4 years without noticing that we already have this?
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So FLS,if I understand you correct your new stick is giving you this message at low speeds?
Also,your not using any dampening or deadband? do you have scaling enabled?
I know your stick is FFB and I'm wondering if thats the issue or the settings your using.
Either way if HTC is looking into it,that sure sound good to me,btw I rarely see the "dont move" message and use very little dampening or deadband and all my sliders are set to 100% with the exception of #1 and 2 on pitch,they are set to 80% and 90% respectively.
:salute
ps: FLS keep us updated on the new stik,I'm considering getting 1 myself but after owwning a half dozen or so other product from that company I'm abit leary at this point.....
Morfiend there's no problem with my sticks. They both use Hall effect sensors. I haven't had stick spiking since I switched from the CH gameport sticks. My older set of CH Pro pedals were spiking but I replaced the pot since I'd already opened and cleaned the old pot a few times. The problem we're addressing in this thread is that the stick stirring code doesn't allow control movements that might be used in a low speed stall recovery. While you can avoid the problem by moving your hand slower it would be nice if the code wasn't active at speeds where actual stick stirring didn't combine with net lag to make you harder to hit. As I posted earlier, with FFB it's easier to move your stick too fast when the trim force goes to zero, just as on a real aircraft.
I recommend you get a G940 immediately. I've only had good experiences with the Logitech G series. My G25 FFB steering wheel is great and after a year is still like new, the G940 seems more robust than the CH gear I used to use. I've used CH since it first came out until I got my Cougar. The FFB in AH adds so much I would give up my TrackIR before I give up FFB. I'm not saying it will give you an advantage, but feeling trim forces change with speed add so much to the immersion I only wish the pedals were FFB too.
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I would like to see alot less movement to get that message, too much stick stirring is making it almost impossible to hit a target with the cheaper joysticks that bounce a ton :salute
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I'd really rather see a slowing of the control surface speed to something realistic, not what we can produce with our no-load, no-distance-traveled joysticks. Unfortunately, this might not be so easy to implement.
The simulating control speed movement has always been there.
HiTech
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really? I've never really noticed it.
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really? I've never really noticed it.
Well, your controls don't instantaneously move from one position to another; the controls move, albeit quickly.
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really? I've never really noticed it.
You really shouldn't notice it if you fly like most people, I.E. with smooth stick movements there would not be any lag.The way it works is to give you x% movement per sec, as long as you move slower than that % there will be not lag. If you wish to see it to an extream turn the stick damping all the way to max in the JS setup. Only if you are moving the stick very rapidly would you be able to notice it.
HiTech
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Oh, I thought it would be something that would be kind of noticable when preforming break turns....