Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: vUSMCv on December 20, 2009, 07:55:04 PM
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Im sure alot of us want it, but It would be a fun plane and should be used at ports and cv's if we get a model. For ports to have them is have the vh up even though its a plane. for carrier fleets have the cv up like every other plane. Im sure this isnt the best idea but it would be a fun plane to have.
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+1 for the idea. There are other current threads that touch on this matter though (ie. Search and rescue / amphibious aircraft and water landings etc. etc.). You might do a search and review some of the information and discussion posted in the relevant threads. :salute
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As long as beer bottles are part of the ordnance package for the Catalina, I'm all for it.
ack-ack
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+1 I like it! HTC will need to add a better water model though.
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110 mph but 17 hour endurance, YEAH!
Even with MA 2x fuel burn it means you could fly for over 8 hours before having to land.
:)
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At last, a target for the I16.
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Been trying to talk them into the PBY for scenario and arena rescues and fleet hunting for years.
+ like 1,000 :)
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+1 :aok
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Yes, but first redo the water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV7gpRhy4Eo
In fact this brings on another idea. Sea diving.
Has anyone watched the movie Pearl Harbor? In this movie, Ben Affleck being the super ace pilot that he is, gets messed up by a gerry over the channel, and while looking at a picture of his girlfriend stuck onto the instrument panel of his spitfire (See my related thread: Personalized Cockpits http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280151.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280151.0.html) ) he goes into the water. However, being an adept swimmer, he manages to climb out of his cockpit and swim up to the surface, saving his own life in the process. All because of that one picture on his cockpit panel, which gave him strength in the moment he needed it most..
Upon entering the water, we should be able to simulate swimming by moving the joystick around. There should be an indicator of how much strength/air we have left (See tomb raider from the 90's) and upon surfacing, an icon should appear above our soldier indicating that we are now there, not unlike the 'Parachute' icon we have when a pilot bails out of a plane and opens his parachute.
And then, after all this, we should get water planes.
+1
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what would be really cool is they change the water. and if you get shot down bail out, if you get saved with in 20 min maybe you get your points. but the enemy may also come and capture you and no points.
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It will end up the biggest hangar Queen in the game. Nobody is going to float along at 100 mph for hours on end. Nobody is going to float in the water for 45 mins waiting for this plane to float by to pick them up. Not that anyone is going to spend 2 hours picking up a little cartoon flyer anyway.
PBYs were excellent in their roles as ASW, Convoy escort, or night time strike against undefended convoys. Add to that picking up downed pilots. It was the right aircraft at the right time in History and I dont blame anyone here for admiring it. But in this game I think it would be as useless as nipples on the herd Bull. Most of all in light of the fact we have plane sets still in need of combat aircraft. We dont have night, dont have convoys, and I doubt anyone is going to float in 2D water for an hour on the off chance their buddy in the PBY survives long enough to pick him up. AND make it back.
I admire the PBY too. Just not for Aces High. I'd much rather see the TU-2 modeled, or the Beau, of the Jap set fleshed out more.
Boy I wouldnt want to be floating into a furball at 100 mph in one of these. They are a cool airplane tho.
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/catalina.jpg)
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Scenarios.
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PBYs were excellent in their roles as ASW, Convoy escort, or night time strike against undefended convoys.
If you're going to post like you're some kind of expert on a subject, it would really help if you actually knew a thing or two about what you're talking about. Night time strikes against undefended targets? Learn about the Blackcats and look at the missions they ran, one can hardly say their primary targets were undefended convoys. Heck, regular PBY units would have been very lucky if they spotted undefended convoys that they were able to attack.
The PBY would be a great addition for scenarios, FSOs and even the AvA arena. The AH world doesn't revolve around the Late War arenas and there are more to World War II planes than the Late War rides you're accustomed to flying.
ack-ack
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Nice little story of the PBY during the Battle of the Bismark Sea.
BISMARK SEA ACTION
Just after midnight on November 25, Hal Sommer, skipper of VPB-52, was prowling an area about 75 miles west of the enemy complex at Rabaul when his radar operator picked up a large force of several ships on his equipment. A few minutes later the wakes of several fast-moving vessels came into view. Sommer picked out one and executed a glide-bombing attack. The entire bomb load was released at about 700 feet and all missed the target. The intended victim, a destroyer, opened up with tracers and fire from its main batteries. Sommer opened to a distance of about 25 miles and proceeded to track the enemy formation. He radioed his position and the situation to Lieutenant Bill Lahodney, who was also searching the Bismarck Sea that night.
Lahodney arrived at the position a short time later and homed in on radar. At about two miles and 1,200 feet, he could make out a large zigzagging wake. It belonged to a cruiser flanked by several destroyers. He pushed the nose of the aircraft over and began a steep dive toward the violently maneuvering target (believed to have been the heavy cruiser Aoba or another ship of that class).
The attack on the big ship was made from port quarter to starboard bow and although the intervalometer was set to provide bomb spacing of 75 feet, it is probable that the weapons hit closer together, due to the steep angle of the dive and the low altitude of the drop. The copilot, Ensign H. M. "Hank" Kalstad, released the quick of bombs on Lahodney’s signal and the pullout was made between 100 and 150 feet. They found their marks on the writhing target. The starboard waist gunner looked out to see the large superstructure, masts, and the after turret of a big cruiser flash by. The Cat made a climbing turn and came back for a strafing run despite a withering antiaircraft barrage. As the plane approached its wounded victim, there was a violent explosion from the bowels of the big warship. Lahodney continued the run, dropping a duster of fragmentation bombs from about 400 feet. As he did so, heavy antiaircraft fire enveloped the Catalina, blew off the tunnel hatch, and ripped through the tail section. Lahodney was suddenly aware that he had lost all aileron and partial elevator control and was losing altitude. Adding full power on one engine and somewhat less on the other, he was able to pick up a faltering wing and thus keep the aircraft in the air. Other enemy ships in the formation now picked up the PBY in their searchlights and were making frantic efforts to shoot it down.
Retiring out of range, the wounded Cat slowly climbed to 6,000 feet, still experiencing severe problems with directional control and maneuvering. Lahodney and his co-pilot wrestled with the problem for some time when, suddenly, dozens of searchlights came on and flashes of light could be seen on the ground below. Only then did they realize that they had strayed over the Japanese stronghold at Rabaul. Luck was with them again, however, and a broken layer of clouds covered their escape. They headed east, passed over the southern end of New Ireland and proceeded out to sea. There they altered course to the southwest and headed for home.
The aircraft was still flying but it was not performing normally. Differential throttle had to be employed on the engines to retain control. Excessive power was necessary to maintain altitude and even so, maximum speed was only about 90 knots. Lahodney ordered all excess gear jettisoned – guns, ammunition, tool boxes, catwalks – everything, as Kalstad later remarked, "that was not riveted to the plane itself."
About 50 miles south of New Ireland they ran into a front with heavy turbulence. With no aileron control, and the elevator cables hanging by a few strands, they were buffeted about for almost two hours before they emerged on the other side.
The problem now was one of navigation, for they had only a vague idea of the aircraft’s position. Finally at daybreak they were able to raise the Half Moon on the radio and discovered that they had passed to the west of the tender and were off the southern coast of New Guinea. Reversing course they returned to the coastline and followed it eastward until they came upon the base at Samarai about two hours later. There, they made a deliberately hot landing to prevent the tunnel compartment from taking on too much water, and taxied right up to the ramp. There the aircraft sank in shallow water. It had been an eventful night and Lahodney later received the Navy Cross for his skill and daring.
ack-ack
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Another account of a Blackcat attack on a Japanese convoy.
INTERCEPTING A CONVOY
On the afternoon of January 15, information reached Samarai that a large enemy convoy from Truk had entered the Bismarck Sea and was headed toward Rabaul. Land-based Army bombers could not make an attack on the convoy before dark. If action was delayed until daylight the next day, however, the formation would have reached the cover of a large front extending along the entire southwest coast of New Ireland. Under cover of weather, the enemy ships would reach Rabaul and unload their cargo, which by this time was sorely needed by the Japanese defenders. It was up to the Black Cats to make the interception.
Tom Christopher and his officers poured over the charts. If the intelligence information was accurate, they should be able to make contact with the enemy at about 0130 off New Hanover Island, just west of the northern end of New Ireland. Six planes, all that could be spared, were readied. Four of these planes were loaded with the customary two 500- and two 1,000-pound bombs. The other two each carried two 500-pounders and one Mark XIII torpedo.
Takeoff time was at 1800 and the six planes headed north. Crossing over into the Bismarck Sea in darkness, they immediately spread out in a loose scouting line to find the enemy convoy. The weather was unusually good that night, with scattered cumulus clouds at about 1,200 feet and a quarter moon providing just the right amount of light.
Tom Christopher made first contact with the enemy at 0108 northwest of New Hanover proceeding on a course of 150 degrees at a speed of 10 knots. As he approached the formation, he could make out four large cargo vessels and two cruisers. About eight miles to the west he could see a second group of ships, consisting of two smaller merchant types and some escort vessels. Having heard the Catalina’s approach, the Japanese knew they had been discovered and prepared for the worst. Tom Christopher orbited nearby and called in his other aircraft in order to make a concentrated attack. The enemy, he noted, seemed to have a bad case of nerves. "The cruisers seemed to have great difficulty in keeping the merchantmen in position, and they were milling around in circles, and got all spread out. The other convoy came over and joined them, and the cruisers were just dashing back and forth in among this mess of ships trying to give them adequate coverage."
By about 0230, three of the other PBYs had arrived on the scene. The remaining two aircraft were delayed by distance and weather, and the attack was begun without them. Ellis Fisher moved in first and made a torpedo run on the lead cruiser coming in from the ship’s starboard side. Because torpedo attacks are best made from a beam aspect, the target has an opportunity to bring to bear all its guns on one side on the attacking aircraft. And this is exactly what happened in this case, with the second cruiser also pumping out rounds to augment the firepower of the first. Fisher bore on. Positioning himself at about 100 feet off the water at 105 knots, he waited for the right moment and squeezed of the drop. Nothing happened.
Fisher moved out of range and circled around to try again. This time even the merchantmen and another small escort vessel were firing at him but he continued on, getting even closer to the target before he attempted manual release. Again, the torpedo hung up in its mounts. By this time, the cruisers had the picture. The Cat was after them. They appeared to forget about their slow-moving charges in the convoy and concentrated their efforts on saving themselves. Again, the Cat dove, levelled off at 100 feet and zeroed in on one of the big warships. For the third time, the obstinate weapon refused to drop. A serious oil leak had now developed in the starboard engine. Reluctantly, Ellis Fisher and his crew departed the area and headed for home.
But the fun was just beginning. S. B. Bradley who had been orbiting about six miles from the formation, now made his move. Climbing to 3,500 feet, he moved in close, using a broken layer of cloudsto mask his approach. When he was almost on top of the enemy ships, he nosed over in an unusually steep dive of perhaps 70 degrees. As he broke through the clouds, he found himself about a mile from a fat tanker which he immediately chose as his target. Flattening his dive angle to about 50 degrees, he came in fast (for a PBY), indicating about 200 knots. Antiaircraft fire was now intense but Bradley concentrated on his chosen victim as the Cat plummeted toward the water. At 150 feet, he pulled out and pressed the intervalometer bomb-release switch for a stick of four. The mechanism failed to function. Fortunately, the copilot pulled the starboard emergency-release handle at the same time, releasing one 500- and one 1,000-pound bomb from under the starboard wing. Both were direct hits amidships. Bradley maneuvered violently to escape the antiaircraft fire which enveloped him and retired to safe distance where he observed his handiwork with some satisfaction.
Tom Christopher later described the sight. The ship was a large tanker loaded with gasoline. When Bradley’s bombs found their marks "she went up into a beautiful torch. In the light of that the other planes picked out their targets...."
Next to try his luck was Lieutenant (j.g.) Loring M. Bates, Jr. He moved in on a freighter approaching from the starboard side at an altitude of 500 feet. When he was only a few hundred yards from the target, he pushed over into a dive and let all four bombs go in a stick at 125 feet. There were no hits and the Cat made its escape at a low altitude, skimming a few feet off the water.
At about this time, Vad Utgoff came upon the scene and, in the light of the fire from the burning tanker, he began a torpedo run toward a group of ships which included one of the cruisers. The enemy could hear the Cat coming but apparently thought it was another bombing attack and concentrated his gunfire skyward.
Utgoff slipped in underneath and launched his fish. It was a perfect textbook run, 125 feet, 105 knots at drop point. Distance was about one-half mile with plenty of running time for the weapon to arm. The torpedo left the aircraft on cue – but there was no explosion and the enemy ships steamed on. Utgoff still had two bombs left and he was determined to make them count.
By this time the convoy was fast approaching a line squall which the enemy ships clearly intended to use for cover. Christopher decided to make his attack before that could happen. Moving in at 500 feet, he chose a large cargo vessel. He lined up his approach from port bow to starboard quarter and when he was almost on top of the vessel, Christopher dove on the target. As the Cat bore in at close quarters, the bow gunner sprayed the deck with his twin thirties, silencing one gun on the ship’s stern. Releasing all four bombs on the intervalometer, Christopher concentrated on making good his escape. It was a good drop – right on the money, but there was no explosive flash. Suddenly, there was a blast which threw Cat crewmen into the bilges. Seconds later, a plume of water, smoke and debris rose 200 feet in the air over the stricken vessel. All fire from the target ship had now ceased but guns from the other ships in the convoy zeroed in on the fleeing aircraft. There seemed to be a wall of tracers ahead. If they could not go through that hail of bullets, perhaps they could go under it. Christopher dove for the water to make good his withdrawal.
Now it was Vad Utgoff's turn to try again. He had seen the spectacular explosion aboard Christopher’s target ship and chose another large cargo vessel nearby. Utgoff began his attack about a mile from the target, diving quickly from 1,200 to 200 feet in an attempt to get under the antiaircraft fire coming at the airplane from all directions. It was from all kinds of guns both heavy and light and it followed the aircraft in its dive. Utgoff released both 500-pounders together as he made his run from port quarter to starboard bow. One hit the ship’s side and exploded, shooting a bolt of fire outward and parallel to the water. The other appeared to have gone through the deck plates and went off. As the aircraft made a circling escape, fire was seen amidships and below decks in the forward part of the ship.
It was a beautiful sight. Three large vessels whose cargoes would never reach the Japanese garrison at Rabaul were burning brightly below. With weapons expended, the four remaining planes headed for Samarai and a good day’s sleep. At 1045 the next morning, an Army reconnaissance aircraft arrived at the scene of the battle to survey the damage. There they found one of the ships in its final stages of agony and watched it go under. The other two were burning, and belching smoke and debris from periodic explosions from within. Soon they too would be claimed by the sea. There was no sign of life except for a few empty lifeboats and the flotsam and jetsam of battle. The Black Cats had done their job well.
ack-ack
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Photo of a Blackcat after it came home from a convoy raid. Notice the bullet holes circled in white by one of the crew.
(http://daveswarbirds.com/blackcat/b_holes.gif)
40mm strike on a Blackcat received on a bombing run over the Japanese base at Ambon.
(http://daveswarbirds.com/blackcat/aafire-result.gif)
Must have taken balls of steel to fly this plane with the missions they were tasked with and I guess ends the silly notion that they excelled at attacking unarmed convoys at night.
ack-ack
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Wow Ack-Ack, a really good post. :salute and another :salute to that Cat crew.
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I admire the Black Cats too, PBYs even. But next time you set flaps imagine going slower across 3 sectors. It will take a PBY about 12 mins to cross one sector, not counting climbouts.
We dont have submarines. Dont have minelaying. They couldnt survive against CV groups. I guess we have lightly armed barges if anyone cares about attacking them. We dont have convoys for the PBYs to scout for. So the only Historical purpose for them would be to pick up downed pilots. Even in a event are you going to sit there for 30 to 60 mins as the PBY comes out to rescue you?
Assuming that is it survives. The B-25H is far better armed and faster and even that is easy meat low level in the game.
Mostly they attacked barges at night. Yes the Japs did try and arm the barges but any fool knows, most of all as the war went on, the IJN did not protect their convoys very well. In the beginning however PBY losses were very high because it was used in roles above its capability. At night, against lighter defenses, it did much better. http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/IJO-49.html
Q. What was the organization of your escort vessels?
A. Our escort vessels at AMBON consisted of one torpedo boat, the KIJI, and 15 converted trawlers of less than 500 tons and a maximum of 10 knots speed. No regular convoy routines were possible owing to the scarcity of escort vessels and their slowness. During the bad months of May and June 1944, my unit borrowed seven or eight small ships from SOERABAJA. At no time were any large naval ships, such as DD's or DE's, used for escorting in my area. The ships escorted were carrying provisions and personnel belonging to both the Army and the Navy. The escorting duty was the Navy responsibility. The only craft going without escort in my area were sailing boats; vessels of 1,000 tons and up received escorts. The area of escort responsibility for the Fourth Advanced Southern Fleet was between the eastern limit of 140ƒ East longitude and a line from PALAU to TALIABO Island in the NETHERLAND EAST INDIES and from that island a line running 160ƒ True.
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Mostly they attacked barges at night. Yes the Japs did try and arm the barges but any fool knows, most of all as the war went on, the IJN did not protect their convoys very well. In the beginning however PBY losses were very high because it was used in roles above its capability. At night, against lighter defenses, it did much better. http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/IJO-49.html
Again, read about the missions that were flown by the Blackcats and other PBY units. Blackcat's didn't 'mostly attack barges at night', as the two missions I posted clearly show. These missions weren't rare either, it was their bread and butter. Sure, they attacked the barges but to say that's what they mostly attacked is something that is a comment made out of sheer ignorance on the history of the Blackcats and other PBY units. It was because the attacks from the Blackcats that the Japanese were forced to use barges in attempts to resupply their troops and bases.
During the last two and a half months of 1943, while operating from New Guinea. Cats of VP52 damaged two cruisers, three destroyers and two submarines. They were also credited with sinking 10,000 tons of enemy merchant vessels.
Which roles was it used above its capacity? It was designed to be a long range patrol bomber and scout plane and made a perfect platform for ASW operations (which it excelled at). In the PTO, it was assigned to the role of convoy duty, search and rescue, air ambulance and freight hauling and later interdiction and harrassment missions. Yes, they did take heavy losses, at that early stage in the war, we were still pretty much in the defensive and just going on the offensive in the SW Pacific area and faced top tier Japanese forces. During that time, which US units didn't take heavy casualties? The fact that the PBY and her crews were able to hold the line and make such a devastating impact during that time is a testiment to the Catalina and her crews.
ack-ack
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(http://C:\Users\Owner\Pictures)
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As a couple people have said, Rich, think OUTSIDE the Mains. That's not the only part of this game.
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(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u288/callmewingus/Macros/ScruffySecond.jpg)
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As a couple people have said, Rich, think OUTSIDE the Mains. That's not the only part of this game.
This is a place for opinions. Respectfully its for "opinions".
One doesnt have to live a life where you agree with the group all the time.
One can also celebrate the crews of the PBYs without saying they would be a good fit in the game. I dont think they would fit in, even worse, I think they would be a waste of modeling effort when we need so many niche warplanes. That doesnt mean I dont revere the crews who often risked death in attack or rescue missions. It was a terror to submarines, "which we dont have", and very effectively laid mines, "the forgotton hero of the Pacific war". Yes, "mines".
Over the three months between leaving the Philippines and moving to Perth the wing lost 60% of its personnel and all but four of its PBYs. The PBY crews had fought with great bravery, but the Catalina was too slow, too lightly armed and too lightly armoured to survive against the hordes of Japanese fighters that supported the invasion of the Dutch East Indies. Japanese aircraft were free to roam wherever they wanted, and more of PatWing 10’s aircraft were lost while on the ground or sea than in the air. The PBY was simply not designed to operate in such difficulty circumstances. [/qoute]
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_PBY_catalina_US_service.html
I was in a hurry before, as i am now, and said the Cats only attacked unarmed merchant shipping. What I meant was lightly armed, even variances in armamament as the Japs would nail cannon onto anything. They did also sink a small number of surface warships. Luckily they could survives better at night and had radar, which the japs didnt have. Again Im in a hurry, have to go to work. For those who want it? I hope you get it. Myself? Ill stay off of this train. :salute
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Think of the PBY as a trail blazer, its going to lead the way to bigger and better things. Including water we can land on, ditch on realistically. Including fighters on floats, including the Japanese Flying boats that were in no way hanger queens.
Its the pathfinder that can open the door to all kinds of good things.
So yes, bring it on. I don't CARE if its a hanger queen in the MA. So what?
Based on that logic we never would have had the C-47, the JU-88, or many of the other cool early to mid war planes we have now. Each and every new plane adds to immersion, adds diversity to the plane set.
Making the whole experience better for the majority.
If for no other single reason, bring it to AH Just to honor those brave men who flew it.
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And has been said MANY MANY MANY MANY times, it would be an EXCELLENT addition for scenarios and FSO.
Imagine flying a Midway FSO where the Allies actually have to SCOUT the location of the enemy CVs in the first frame.
Imagine a Black Cats Snapshot, or a "bonus" mission like what sometimes gets run at the end of an FSO frame.
The point is there's a TON of places where the PBY will actually find use outside of the Mains. Stop thinking in terms of whether it can compete with La-7s and P-51s in the Main Arenas.
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Bring it on. +
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As you can see, Rich knows very little about the PBY's actions, in particular the Blackcats in the PTO.
ack-ack
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"110 mph but 17 hour endurance, YEAH!"
The longest operational flights in history were flown by PBY Catalinas: Ceylon (Sri Lanka) to Australia non-stop, avoiding Japanese-occupied territory and airborne for over 24 hours, thus earning the aircrews and passengers the 'Double Sunrise Certificate'. The crews were RAF and RAAF. Cruising speed was 90-95 knots and the highest-priority cargo often less than 1000 lbs in weight.
The RAF preferred the pure flying boat PBY-5 over the PBY-5A, the former being lighter and having a greater range and endurance than the amphibian.
Yes please, I'd like one. And a Sunderland. And a H8K2 'Emily' plus a Blohm und Voss BV138 or 222 for the Axis forces - and a Netherlands East Indies Dornier Do24.
:cool:
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If for no other single reason, bring it to AH Just to honor those brave men who flew it.
Respectfully. There are many different airplanes we need more and they also were flown by brave men. They also should be honored. As much or more as the PBY pilots. An added plus would be the airplane would actually be flown in the game, far more often by far more players, then would fly the PBY.
PBYs that ventured to close to Jap CVs, even just to spot, didnt fare to well. Against our game CVs they wouldnt last a minute. You cant compare the PBY to the JU-88. The JU is much faster and carrys a far bigger bombload. And even they, far more capable then PBYs, get slaughtered around the games CVs.
The point is there's a TON of places where the PBY will actually find use outside of the Mains. Stop thinking in terms of whether it can compete with La-7s and P-51s in the Main Arenas.
OK. Like where? And stop screeching about LAs and P-51s. I never mentioned them. Now tell me, where and when would the thing be flown?
Even if you can actually ditch are you seriously going to bob in the cartoon water for an hour on the off chance a 140 mph PBY will survive long enough to make it to you? I wouldnt even do that for an event.
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If you had actually READ my post I gave a couple off the top of my head situations the two lines immedately above the one I quoted. You're too busy sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to notice.
Scenarios. Snapshots. FSO. The CM teams can dream up any number of situations where the PBY could be put to good use outside the mains.
And one thing to make it useful in the Mains is if a PBY is in visual range of an enemy CV group the group appears on the map for some specified length of time, with the position updating as long as the PBY remains in contact.
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If you had actually READ my post I gave a couple off the top of my head situations the two lines immedately above the one I quoted. You're too busy sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to notice.
Scenarios. Snapshots. FSO. The CM teams can dream up any number of situations where the PBY could be put to good use outside the mains.
And one thing to make it useful in the Mains is if a PBY is in visual range of an enemy CV group the group appears on the map for some specified length of time, with the position updating as long as the PBY remains in contact.
You still havnt answered my question, "now your wiggling". Why would you scout in a plane thats the slowest in the game? Most of all when that plane is dead meat as soon as it finds what your scouting for? If it even makes it to see the CV, what with CAP flying to defend it. Next time you up a Spit set the flaps and tool along for a sector at 130 mph and tell me how much fun it is.
Oh I see. You think the PBY will be able to keep contact with the CV group and there will be no enemy cons around to shoot it down. Or Flak. :huh Can you dream up another use for it?
[qoute]The PBY's’ primary goal was maritime patrol and anti shipping, although as the war developed it was quickly show to be very vulnerable to air attacks and anti aircraft artillery and ceased heavy bombing and anti shipping attacks because of massive losses.[/qoute] http://www.pbyrescue.com/Aircraft/catpage2.htm
Thats what happens to Patrol aircraft that shadow CVs that can launch much faster, better armed aircraft. Personaly I'd prefer patroling in a P-47M with 3 extra fuel tanks. If the scenerio doesnt allow fighters to be launched off the CV then how realistic is that?
Then you want them to change the rules and make the enemy CV visible when the PBY is shadowing it? How is that different then just seeing the CV and typing its location on text vox? Whats the difference? You cant get these guys out of their 190s, P-51s, LAs, and Spit-16s and you think they are going to upp a PBY and tool around for 8 hours at 130 mph? Jezz the CV will have been sunk 3 times by the time the thing even gets there.
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[qoute]The PBY's’ primary goal was maritime patrol and anti shipping, although as the war developed it was quickly show to be very vulnerable to air attacks and anti aircraft artillery and ceased heavy bombing and anti shipping attacks because of massive losses.[/qoute] http://www.pbyrescue.com/Aircraft/catpage2.htm
Honestly, where do you get this info? It's incorrect. PBY units (including Blackcat's) continued with anti-shipping and other anti-maritime missions throughout the war. Blackcat units also kept up bombing missions over Japanese bases throughout the war, in addition to their interdiction and harassment missions, Dumbo missions (SAR), scouting/recce, and transport.
So much for being removed from anti-shipping duties...
VPB-33 SETS A RECORD
On the night of September 23, Lieutenant (j.g.) William B. ‘Wild Bill" Sumpter made three spectacular kills in one run. Searching the Davao Gulf on Mindanao, he discovered a large 10,000-ton Chitose-class seaplane carrier. Two destroyer escorts were refueling from the large vessel, one on each side. It was a Black Cat’s dream come true. Sumpter came in on the three helpless vessels at masthead level, releasing four bombs in a stick. The first struck a destroyer escort, the next two hit the tender, and the fourth exploded below decks in the other destroyer escort, causing three secondary blasts which threw the plane 200 feet in the air. Both escort vessels sank almost immediately. Sumpter then swung around and raked the tender with his guns. She was on fire and listing to one side, and the Cat pilot was determined to finish her off. After several strafing passes, the big ship rolled over on her side and settled in the water. Scratch three!"
VPB-33 lost a man that night when Lieutenant (j.g.) Robert W. Schuetz bombed a 10,000-ton transport at Toli Toli Bay, Celebes Island. As the Cat made its run on the ship, heavy gunfire hit the starboard propeller, blew two cylinders off the engine, and holed the wing. Schuetz hung on grimly and dropped his string of bombs, two of which struck the side of the big ship. As the plane passed overhead, however, gunfire ripped through the bottom, fatally wounding the navigator, Ensign LeRoy Flatau. The plane was shaking violently but Schuetz was able to climb to 2,000 feet where he shut down the gasping engine and feathered the prop. Ordering all unnecessary gear jettisoned, he flew the badly damaged Cat back to the tender, a distance of 550 miles on one engine. As Flip Anderson later pointed out, "we had no alternate bases to which we could return! It was the home tender or else!"
That same night, in Kolono Bay, Celebes Island Anderson hit a 10,500-ton tanker which caught fire, rolled over and sank. A gunner on another Cat operating in the same area was wounded during an attack which damaged a small freighter.
VPB-33 flew its last flights of this search-and-attack tour on the night of October 3-4. Lieutenant (j.g.) John Zubler’s aircraft was badly damaged, one crewman was killed and two others wounded during an attack on a 3,000-ton freighter. Zubler got off all his bombs, two of which hit the vessel amidships, but the cost had been high.
Wild Bill Sumpter was also out that last night. He and his crews had already sunk thirteen ships and damaged three others during the month of September and were looking for something to cap off their score. They found it in the northwest part of Celebes Island in Toli Toli Bay. That night the weather was clear as they flew along the coast with a large bright moon lighting their way. As they passed the entrance to the bay, they took a look inside and much to their surprise found two cruisers, a destroyer, and a destroyer escort lying at anchor there. All were darkened but the moon clearly illuminated them. Sumpter played it cool. Assuming that he had also been seen by the Japanese, he continued on past the mouth of the bay and then headed out to sea. There was no indication from the enemy ships that the Cat had been detected. About an hour later, Sumpter turned around and headed back. He radioed base advising them of his find and his intention to attack at 0100. If nothing was heard from the Cat thereafter, the people back at the tender would not have to guess what happened.
As they bore in on Toli Toli Bay, the pilot briefed his crew. They were going to make landfall some distance up the coast and skirt along the shore in an effort to mask their approach by the mountainous terrain. At the last minute, they would burst into the bay and hopefully catch the Japanese ships by surprise. No one was to open fire with the machine guns until Sumpter gave the word.
Everything went as planned until the final moments. The Cat approached from behind a hill at a thousand feet and Sumpter pushed the nose over about a mile and a half from one of the cruisers. But by this time they had been seen and when they were about a quarter of a mile from the drop, all four warships opened with heavy and light antiaircraft fire. It was like a thick wall which no airplane could possibly penetrate. Sumpter later observed that he could have lit a cigarette on the tracers – they were that close. Still, he held the Cat in its dive and continued his attack run down the centerline of the target ship (believed to have been a Katori-class cruiser). At 125 feet of altitude, he let go with his entire bomb load – no spacing. All of them landed on the unfortunate victim. The blast enveloped the aircraft and Sumpter thought they had been hit. But the aircraft still seemed to respond to his command. He dove for the water and headed for the entrance to the bay. Tracers and heavy gunfire continued to burst around the Cat as it skimmed the surface. Moments later it made a sharp turn, almost dipping a wing tip in the water, and ducked behind a point of land.
Checking the Cat over, Sumpter determined that it had not sustained any serious damage. He took up a position in the darkness just outside the bay and orbited while watching fires burn aboard the enemy vessel. Then, with weapons expended, he began the long flight back to the tender."
Wild Bill Sumpter’s spectacular pyrotechnic display was the icing on the cake for VPB-33. In fact, all the pilots and crewmen of that squadron had performed magnificently to amass a record of enemy tonnage sunk, destroyed, and damaged that no other Cat squadron was able to surpass. In the course of just over one month, forty-three ships totaling 103,500 tons had been sent to the bottom or otherwise destroyed. Twenty more adding up to 53,500 tons were severely damaged. A large number of miscellaneous vessels of various descriptions were also dispatched, although their tonnage is not included in the 157,000-ton total documented for this squadron during this period.
General MacArthur in a dispatch to the Seventh Fleet Commander Admiral Kinkaid praised the "recent magnificent performance" of the Black Cats. "No command in the war," he said, "has excelled the brilliance of their operations."
Source: "Black Cat Raiders of WWII" by Richard C. Knott, 1982 (now out of print)
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I think that the addition of an air radar ability as has been mentioned and would show the cv group on the clipboard, would be helpful. Your comments about the negative aspects of the PBY really don't support your position of not wanting the aircraft added. There are many niche aircraft in this game that aren't "uber" warbirds. Yet those aircraft still have uses. PBY with a search radar and applicable offensive and defensive armaments would be less useful than some/as useful as some/more useful than some. As someone said earlier, if included it will be a pioneer for new aspects of the game. That in of itself is justification for inclusion. So its not very survivable under most conditions....most support aircraft and light bomber types aren't. Oh, and to answer your burning question.....I will fly it! (That's right, me! The guy who flys TBM's low level on base strikes through furballs and flak without dedicated fighter cover. The guy who likes going air to air in a B-25......)
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One other point to consider, with over 90 aircraft from locations scattered around the world there really are only 2 pools left to model new Aircraft from.
You have the very late war, prototype, perk plane stuff that never really saw action at the squadron level.
And you have all the hanger queens, that may be slow, but still bring something unique to AH.
The main fighters are all in there, most with variants.
Granted the Japanese plane-set needs to be filled out a bit.
And several country's are lacking good bombers.
But the planes left to build are not uber, they are not likely to be competitive in the MA environment.
They are going to be so called "hanger queens" because something else is bigger, goes faster, carry's more, etc.
That does not mean they should not be modeled and included in the game!
Indeed the opposite is true.
After almost 10 years we have gotten to the point where we can afford to have a few hanger queens.
Just for sheer style, grace and immersion!
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If you had actually READ my post I gave a couple off the top of my head situations the two lines immedately above the one I quoted. You're too busy sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to notice.
Scenarios. Snapshots. FSO. The CM teams can dream up any number of situations where the PBY could be put to good use outside the mains.
And one thing to make it useful in the Mains is if a PBY is in visual range of an enemy CV group the group appears on the map for some specified length of time, with the position updating as long as the PBY remains in contact.
You think the games rules should be changed to allow enemy sighting, on the map, CV groups that are being shadowed by PBYs? Even if that made sense whats the difference between letting them pop up on the map and letting the airplane driver, as we have now, just type their location on vox? Theres no difference. Sure you can use them in scenerios, "operative term is YOU use them", but if you have them shadowing CVs, and not allowing uppers from the CVs, then its not realistic. In real life the PBYs got shot to pieces around IJN CVs. So again, Im waiting for any uses that make sense.
Ghost I dont think we have enough aircraft modeled to include one that nobody will fly just to say we have it. I could name a dozen better fits for the game that we need instead. The PBYs would be death traps in AH. And even worse, they'd be super slow death traps. Why would anyone want to model aircraft for a game envirement we simply do not have yet. And probably nver will. Its like putting the horse behind the cart.
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the PBY would be a great plane but once somone (any plane) sees you your pretty much dead would still like to have it lol +1
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One of the great possibilities of AH is its potential to stage simulations (or near simulations) of real events or real environments that were encountered during the early 1940s. The PBY would be really nice to have IF we had a simulated environment where the PBY could be useful. But we don't. I always thought that it would be a good idea if HTC built plane sets for specific theatres/time slots. This may mean creating planes that are hanger queens in the free-for-all MA, but would be useful for re-enactments.
Granted, no re-enactment will be truly accurate, but nevertheless they would benefit from having aircraft modelled for them.
I would have thought that Pearl Harbor and Midway were two scenarios that would be relatively easy to model. The plane-sets were relatively limited (mostly carrier borne).
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You think the games rules should be changed to allow enemy sighting, on the map, CV groups that are being shadowed by PBYs? Even if that made sense whats the difference between letting them pop up on the map and letting the airplane driver, as we have now, just type their location on vox? Theres no difference. Sure you can use them in scenerios, "operative term is YOU use them", but if you have them shadowing CVs, and not allowing uppers from the CVs, then its not realistic. In real life the PBYs got shot to pieces around IJN CVs. So again, Im waiting for any uses that make sense.
Ghost I dont think we have enough aircraft modeled to include one that nobody will fly just to say we have it. I could name a dozen better fits for the game that we need instead. The PBYs would be death traps in AH. And even worse, they'd be super slow death traps. Why would anyone want to model aircraft for a game envirement we simply do not have yet. And probably nver will. Its like putting the horse behind the cart.
Once again, you're fixating on only what you want to see that you think justifies your position. Completely disregarding its use OUTSIDE THE FRICKEN MAIN ARENAS.
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I'm not sure why you are continuing with the statement that uppers won't be allowed while a PBY is following a cv? :headscratch: Also, why are you still talking about survivability and limited use? :huh We have heard it already. Using your logic we shouldn't fly any light bombers, dive bombers, C-47's or drive jeeps or half-tracks because they aren't" survivable" and/or have limited usefulness in the MA. Just because YOU won't use them doesn't make them useless. So far the only decent arguement against the PBY is the water modeling and even that arguement was answered (pioneer aircraft for a new aspect of the game that is much needed and for more than just the PBY). Just because you keep repeating the same arguement over and over even after you have been answered doesn't make your points more valid today than they were yesterday or the day before etc. etc.
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Once again, you're fixating on only what you want to see that you think justifies your position. Completely disregarding its use OUTSIDE THE FRICKEN MAIN ARENAS.
Dude your frothing at the mouth. I'll ask again, what use? last time I asked you mentioned scenerios and then you brought up the main arena on your own. OK I'll ask again. Exactly what will you use them for? As in doing what?
Spotting CVs? they wont survive, probably wont survive to even find the CV. They cant do what they were good at because we dont have submarines, dont lay mines, dont have night,dont pick up pilots, dont have radar on the planes, dont have supply convoys, and probably dont have anyone who wants to float along at 140 mph until dead. In performing regular bombing duties, in real life, they took very heavy casualties because they were so slow, poorly defended, and didnt have self sealing gas tanks. In the game they would fair even worse due to the nature of the arenas. Both regular and scenerio.
Again, "exactly what would you do with the PBYs in the game"? Offhand we dont have the Jap Betty bomber, dont have the HE-111, dont have the TU-2, the PE-2, any Russian bomber period. Dont have the Beaufighter. So why do we need the PBY? If you had to launch one right now what would you do with it?
We cover other sectors from the main base with daily patrol. The only reason we're out there is to look for Japs, principally Jap task forces with carriers, and when we find a Jap task force, about two out of three times the PBY didn't come back - a little hard on morale. He sends his contact, tries to track, and on many occasions gets shot down before he starts back. Now that we're getting B-24's to take care of the so-called "hot" sectors, that situation is much better
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Aircraft/PatRon91/
While I'm talking about losses, I'll mention that my squadron, VP-91, was originally twelve crews, of which four were lost. That's thirty three percent - a little higher than average.
Our next job was anti-sub. There are lots of Jap subs down there, but we didn't see many of them. The PBY's just aren't fast enough to get over and attack those we saw before the subs disappeared. Occasionally we caught some on the surface.
We had such a shortage of planes, and our search was so important that we were used in attacks only in emergencies. When they called out the PBY's to do bombing or torpedo work, we knew things were really bad. It was a very pleasant change from the monotony of search. We limited our attacks, however, to night work. We didn't stand a chance in a PBY in a hot area except at night.
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Scenarios don't have darbar. Icons appear at half the range they do in the Mains. Only RECENTLY did we fly an FSO where radar was enabled, and even then it was only in the tower. This includes for friendly dots, btw, so that bogey off in the distance might easily be sworn off as a friendly if you have an ally in that direction already. Even if you DO know where to look, I can't tell you enough how easy it can be for even a large formation of bombers to slip past you if you're not quite looking in the right direction, or if you have JUST the right background behind what you're looking at.
So even with a CAP over the carrier, a lone PBY has a decent chance of finding the boat and sneaking away before being spotted by CAP that only has a flashing dar circle and maybe the vector of a guy in the tower to go by.
And speaking of bombing runs, many Black Cat ops were undertaken at night. I flew a night PTO setup a couple months back where the settings made it so dark you literally had to fly on instruments just to tell whether you were climbing or not. So now you have no darbar, no dot dar and half-range icons under cover of darkness, with aircraft that may very easily slip underneath your CAP at low altitude. At this point the aircraft's performance becomes less important than the tactics. If utilized correctly the PBY would do just fine.
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How survivable is a B5N2? How uber is a Stuka? Any slow dive bomber with 1 to 3 light machine guns has less than a snowballs chance in hell of getting the job done, let alone actually returning to base. What does survivability have do do with anything in this game? We aren't all flying the uber maximized mega planes with the kung fu grip. Some people actually like the challenge of flying craft like the PBY. if that's not for you, skip it and go fly your FWSpitStang with dual 75mm cannons and a jet engine. Your point about what other items we need more but don't have is irrelevent, this discussion is not about development priority, it s is about the technical merits of inclusion of the PBY into our game.
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Nice plane this is the right way....to Submarines in AH
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Scenarios don't have darbar.
Scenarios have had darbar for as long as I can remember. It was only disabled in the last FSO because of the new in-tower radar.
I'm still confused why a big slow underdefended aircraft is good for scouting in a two hour FSO frame.
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I've come to the conclusion that the lines have been drawn regarding this issue....the people who want the PBY and the people who don't want the PBY aren't going to make any more headway in changing each others minds. We just keep repeating the same arguements for and against over and over. Agree to disagree? :salute
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Hey, I dont blame anyone for wanting the thing. I just disagree.
Its nothing to get excited about.
The sad fact that we dont have a 2nd perked bomber, such staples as the Betty or 111, and that we dont have ANY Russian bomber in the game is, I believe, of utmost importance. The Beaufighter is needed as well.
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Motherland,
The only FSO I've flown in in about 2 years that had DARBAR turned on was the BoB this past Sept-ish, and that was a special case on a ten minute delay. I've never flown a Snapshot that had DARBAR turned on. Granted I haven't flown scenarios but IIRC the same settings are used there as well. Otherwise the only way to have any idea what sector the enemy was in was to watch for base flashing.
Rich,
On the level of priority I DO agree. The Betty may be the most glaring gap in the plane set (yes, I rate it above the He-111). But your posts are coming across that there's be no use for it at ALL, which is most not the case.
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It looks like HTC have moved their priorities away from enhancing the plane set anyway. They're working on WWI and an enhanced plane damage model. Once the new damage model has the creases ironed out HTC will have a huge backlog of work to do to bring the current plane set up to the new standard. I don't see much development being available for many more planes unless they can figure out a way of off-loading some of the work.
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"The Betty may be the most glaring gap in the plane set . . ."
Bomber-wise, I reckon the most glaring AH omission is the most-produced RAF bomber of all time, the Wellington, but fair enough, the Allies have a good range of bombers and the Axis forces haven't. On the Far East front, the IJN's G4M 'Betty', definitely, plus the IJAAF's 'Sally'. The Nakajima Ki-43 'Oscar' fighter's absence is also most notable, considering it was the most-produced IJAAF fighter of WW2 and the mainstay of the IJAAF fighter force for most of the conflict.
:cool: