PBY Catalina

[Ack-Ack]

Photo of a Blackcat after it came home from a convoy raid.  Notice the bullet holes circled in white by one of the crew.


40mm strike on a Blackcat received on a bombing run over the Japanese base at Ambon.


Must have taken balls of steel to fly this plane with the missions they were tasked with and I guess ends the silly notion that they excelled at attacking unarmed convoys at night.

ack-ack

[Templar]

Wow Ack-Ack, a really good post.  and another  to that Cat crew.

[Rich46yo]

I admire the Black Cats too, PBYs even. But next time you set flaps imagine going  slower across 3 sectors. It will take a PBY about 12 mins to cross one sector, not counting climbouts.

We dont have submarines. Dont have minelaying. They couldnt survive against CV groups. I guess we have lightly armed barges if anyone cares about attacking them. We dont have convoys for the PBYs to scout for. So the only Historical purpose for them would be to pick up downed pilots. Even in a event are you going to sit there for 30 to 60 mins as the PBY comes out to rescue you?

Assuming that is it survives. The B-25H is far better armed and faster and even that is easy meat low level in the game.

Mostly they attacked barges at night. Yes the Japs did try and arm the barges but any fool knows, most of all as the war went on, the IJN did not protect their convoys very well. In the beginning however PBY losses were very high because it was used in roles above its capability. At night, against lighter defenses, it did much better. http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/IJO-49.html

Q. What was the organization of your escort vessels?
A. Our escort vessels at AMBON consisted of one torpedo boat, the KIJI, and 15 converted trawlers of less than 500 tons and a maximum of 10 knots speed. No regular convoy routines were possible owing to the scarcity of escort vessels and their slowness. During the bad months of May and June 1944, my unit borrowed seven or eight small ships from SOERABAJA. At no time were any large naval ships, such as DD's or DE's, used for escorting in my area. The ships escorted were carrying provisions and personnel belonging to both the Army and the Navy. The escorting duty was the Navy responsibility. The only craft going without escort in my area were sailing boats; vessels of 1,000 tons and up received escorts. The area of escort responsibility for the Fourth Advanced Southern Fleet was between the eastern limit of 140ƒ East longitude and a line from PALAU to TALIABO Island in the NETHERLAND EAST INDIES and from that island a line running 160ƒ True.

[Ack-Ack]

Mostly they attacked barges at night. Yes the Japs did try and arm the barges but any fool knows, most of all as the war went on, the IJN did not protect their convoys very well. In the beginning however PBY losses were very high because it was used in roles above its capability. At night, against lighter defenses, it did much better. http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/IJO-49.html

Again, read about the missions that were flown by the Blackcats and other PBY units.  Blackcat's didn't 'mostly attack barges at night', as the two missions I posted clearly show.  These missions weren't rare either, it was their bread and butter.  Sure, they attacked the barges but to say that's what they mostly attacked is something that is a comment made out of sheer ignorance on the history of the Blackcats and other PBY units.  It was because the attacks from the Blackcats that the Japanese were forced to use barges in attempts to resupply their troops and bases.

During the last two and a half months of 1943, while operating from New Guinea. Cats of VP52 damaged two cruisers, three destroyers and two submarines. They were also credited with sinking 10,000 tons of enemy merchant vessels.

Which roles was it used above its capacity?  It was designed to be a long range patrol bomber and scout plane and made a perfect platform for ASW operations (which it excelled at).  In the PTO, it was assigned to the role of convoy duty, search and rescue, air ambulance and freight hauling and later interdiction and harrassment missions.  Yes, they did take heavy losses, at that early stage in the war, we were still pretty much in the defensive and just going on the offensive in the SW Pacific area and faced top tier Japanese forces.   During that time, which US units didn't take heavy casualties?  The fact that the PBY and her crews were able to hold the line and make such a devastating impact during that time is a testiment to the Catalina and her crews.


ack-ack

[Tupac]

[Saxman]

As a couple people have said, Rich, think OUTSIDE the Mains. That's not the only part of this game.

[Tupac]

[Rich46yo]

As a couple people have said, Rich, think OUTSIDE the Mains. That's not the only part of this game.

This is a place for opinions. Respectfully its for "opinions".

One doesnt have to live a life where you agree with the group all the time.

One can also celebrate the crews of the PBYs without saying they would be a good fit in the game. I dont think they would fit in, even worse, I think they would be a waste of modeling effort when we need so many niche warplanes. That doesnt mean I dont revere the crews who often risked death in attack or rescue missions. It was a terror to submarines, "which we dont have", and very effectively laid mines, "the forgotton hero of the Pacific war". Yes, "mines".

Over the three months between leaving the Philippines and moving to Perth the wing lost 60% of its personnel and all but four of its PBYs. The PBY crews had fought with great bravery, but the Catalina was too slow, too lightly armed and too lightly  armoured to survive against the hordes of Japanese fighters that supported the invasion of the Dutch East Indies. Japanese aircraft were free to roam wherever they wanted, and more of PatWing 10’s aircraft were lost while on the ground or sea than in the air. The PBY was simply not designed to operate in such difficulty circumstances. [/qoute]
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_PBY_catalina_US_service.html

I was in a hurry before, as i am now, and said the Cats only attacked unarmed merchant shipping. What I meant was lightly armed, even variances in armamament as the Japs would nail cannon onto anything. They did also sink a small number of surface warships. Luckily they could survives better at night and had radar, which the japs didnt have. Again Im in a hurry, have to go to work. For those who want it? I hope you get it. Myself? Ill stay off of this train.

[Ghosth]

Think of the PBY as a trail blazer, its going to lead the way to bigger and better things. Including water we can land on, ditch on realistically. Including fighters on floats, including the Japanese Flying boats that were in no way hanger queens.

Its the pathfinder that can open the door to all kinds of good things.

So yes, bring it on. I don't CARE if its a hanger queen in the MA. So what?

Based on that logic we never would have had the C-47, the JU-88, or many of the other cool early to mid war planes we have now. Each and every new plane adds to immersion, adds diversity to the plane set.
Making the whole experience better for the majority.

If for no other single reason, bring it to AH Just to honor those brave men who flew it.

[Saxman]

And has been said MANY MANY MANY MANY times, it would be an EXCELLENT addition for scenarios and FSO.

Imagine flying a Midway FSO where the Allies actually have to SCOUT the location of the enemy CVs in the first frame.

Imagine a Black Cats Snapshot, or a "bonus" mission like what sometimes gets run at the end of an FSO frame.

The point is there's a TON of places where the PBY will actually find use outside of the Mains. Stop thinking in terms of whether it can compete with La-7s and P-51s in the Main Arenas.

[RaptorL]

Bring it on. +

[Ack-Ack]

As you can see, Rich knows very little about the PBY's actions, in particular the Blackcats in the PTO.


ack-ack

[Simba]

"110 mph but 17 hour endurance, YEAH!"

The longest operational flights in history were flown by PBY Catalinas: Ceylon (Sri Lanka) to Australia non-stop, avoiding Japanese-occupied territory and airborne for over 24 hours, thus earning the aircrews and passengers the 'Double Sunrise Certificate'. The crews were RAF and RAAF. Cruising speed was 90-95 knots and the highest-priority cargo often less than 1000 lbs in weight.

The RAF preferred the pure flying boat PBY-5 over the PBY-5A, the former being lighter and having a greater range and endurance than the amphibian.

Yes please, I'd like one. And a Sunderland. And a H8K2 'Emily' plus a Blohm und Voss BV138 or 222 for the Axis forces - and a Netherlands East Indies Dornier Do24.

 

[Rich46yo]

If for no other single reason, bring it to AH Just to honor those brave men who flew it.

Respectfully. There are many different airplanes we need more and they also were flown by brave men. They also should be honored. As much or more as the PBY pilots. An added plus would be the airplane would actually be flown in the game, far more often by far more players, then would fly the PBY.

PBYs that ventured to close to Jap CVs, even just to spot, didnt fare to well. Against our game CVs they wouldnt last a minute. You cant compare the PBY to the JU-88. The JU is much faster and carrys a far bigger bombload. And even they, far more capable then PBYs, get slaughtered around the games CVs.

The point is there's a TON of places where the PBY will actually find use outside of the Mains. Stop thinking in terms of whether it can compete with La-7s and P-51s in the Main Arenas.

OK. Like where? And stop screeching about LAs and P-51s. I never mentioned them. Now tell me, where and when would the thing be flown?

Even if you can actually ditch are you seriously going to bob in the cartoon water for an hour on the off chance a 140 mph PBY will survive long enough to make it to you? I wouldnt even do that for an event.

[Saxman]

If you had actually READ my post I gave a couple off the top of my head situations the two lines immedately above the one I quoted. You're too busy sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to notice.

Scenarios. Snapshots. FSO. The CM teams can dream up any number of situations where the PBY could be put to good use outside the mains.

And one thing to make it useful in the Mains is if a PBY is in visual range of an enemy CV group the group appears on the map for some specified length of time, with the position updating as long as the PBY remains in contact.