PBY Catalina

[Rich46yo]

If you had actually READ my post I gave a couple off the top of my head situations the two lines immedately above the one I quoted. You're too busy sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to notice.

Scenarios. Snapshots. FSO. The CM teams can dream up any number of situations where the PBY could be put to good use outside the mains.

And one thing to make it useful in the Mains is if a PBY is in visual range of an enemy CV group the group appears on the map for some specified length of time, with the position updating as long as the PBY remains in contact.

You still havnt answered my question, "now your wiggling". Why would you scout in a plane thats the slowest in the game? Most of all when that plane is dead meat as soon as it finds what your scouting for? If it even makes it to see the CV, what with CAP flying to defend it. Next time you up a Spit set the flaps and tool along for a sector at 130 mph and tell me how much fun it is.

Oh I see. You think the PBY will be able to keep contact with the CV group and there will be no enemy cons around to shoot it down. Or Flak. Can you dream up another use for it?
[qoute]The  PBY's’ primary goal was maritime patrol and anti shipping, although as the war developed it was quickly show to be very vulnerable to air attacks and anti aircraft artillery and ceased heavy bombing and anti shipping attacks because of massive losses.[/qoute] http://www.pbyrescue.com/Aircraft/catpage2.htm

Thats what happens to Patrol aircraft that shadow CVs that can launch much faster, better armed aircraft. Personaly I'd prefer patroling in a P-47M with 3 extra fuel tanks. If the scenerio doesnt allow fighters to be launched off the CV then how realistic is that?

Then you want them to change the rules and make the enemy CV visible when the PBY is shadowing it? How is that different then just seeing the CV and typing its location on text vox? Whats the difference? You cant get these guys out of their 190s, P-51s, LAs, and Spit-16s and you think they are going to upp a PBY and tool around for 8 hours at 130 mph? Jezz the CV will have been sunk 3 times by the time the thing even gets there.

[Ack-Ack]

[qoute]The  PBY's’ primary goal was maritime patrol and anti shipping, although as the war developed it was quickly show to be very vulnerable to air attacks and anti aircraft artillery and ceased heavy bombing and anti shipping attacks because of massive losses.[/qoute] http://www.pbyrescue.com/Aircraft/catpage2.htm

Honestly, where do you get this info?  It's incorrect.  PBY units (including Blackcat's) continued with anti-shipping and other anti-maritime missions throughout the war.  Blackcat units also kept up bombing missions over Japanese bases throughout the war, in addition to their interdiction and harassment missions, Dumbo missions (SAR), scouting/recce, and transport.

So much for being removed from anti-shipping duties...

VPB-33  SETS A RECORD
On the night of September 23, Lieutenant (j.g.) William B. ‘Wild Bill" Sumpter made three spectacular kills in one run. Searching the Davao Gulf on Mindanao, he discovered a large 10,000-ton Chitose-class seaplane carrier. Two destroyer escorts were refueling from the large vessel, one on each side. It was a Black Cat’s dream come true. Sumpter came in on the three helpless vessels at masthead level, releasing four bombs in a stick. The first struck a destroyer escort, the next two hit the tender, and the fourth exploded below decks in the other destroyer escort, causing three secondary blasts which threw the plane 200 feet in the air. Both escort vessels sank almost immediately. Sumpter then swung around and raked the tender with his guns. She was on fire and listing to one side, and the Cat pilot was determined to finish her off. After several strafing passes, the big ship rolled over on her side and settled in the water. Scratch three!"

VPB-33 lost a man that night when Lieutenant (j.g.) Robert W. Schuetz bombed a 10,000-ton transport at Toli Toli Bay, Celebes Island. As the Cat made its run on the ship, heavy gunfire hit the starboard propeller, blew two cylinders off the engine, and holed the wing. Schuetz hung on grimly and dropped his string of bombs, two of which struck the side of the big ship. As the plane passed overhead, however, gunfire ripped through the bottom, fatally wounding the navigator, Ensign LeRoy Flatau. The plane was shaking violently but Schuetz was able to climb to 2,000 feet where he shut down the gasping engine and feathered the prop. Ordering all unnecessary gear jettisoned, he flew the badly damaged Cat back to the tender, a distance of 550 miles on one engine. As Flip Anderson later pointed out, "we had no alternate bases to which we could return! It was the home tender or else!"

That same night, in Kolono Bay, Celebes Island Anderson hit a 10,500-ton tanker which caught fire, rolled over and sank. A gunner on another Cat operating in the same area was wounded during an attack which damaged a small freighter.

VPB-33 flew its last flights of this search-and-attack tour on the night of October 3-4. Lieutenant (j.g.) John Zubler’s aircraft was badly damaged, one crewman was killed and two others wounded during an attack on a 3,000-ton freighter. Zubler got off all his bombs, two of which hit the vessel amidships, but the cost had been high.

Wild Bill Sumpter was also out that last night. He and his crews had already sunk thirteen ships and damaged three others during the month of September and were looking for something to cap off their score. They found it in the northwest part of Celebes Island in Toli Toli Bay. That night the weather was clear as they flew along the coast with a large bright moon lighting their way. As they passed the entrance to the bay, they took a look inside and much to their surprise found two cruisers, a destroyer, and a destroyer escort lying at anchor there. All were darkened but the moon clearly illuminated them. Sumpter played it cool. Assuming that he had also been seen by the Japanese, he continued on past the mouth of the bay and then headed out to sea. There was no indication from the enemy ships that the Cat had been detected. About an hour later, Sumpter turned around and headed back. He radioed base advising them of his find and his intention to attack at 0100. If nothing was heard from the Cat thereafter, the people back at the tender would not have to guess what happened.

As they bore in on Toli Toli Bay, the pilot briefed his crew. They were going to make landfall some distance up the coast and skirt along the shore in an effort to mask their approach by the mountainous terrain. At the last minute, they would burst into the bay and hopefully catch the Japanese ships by surprise. No one was to open fire with the machine guns until Sumpter gave the word.

Everything went as planned until the final moments. The Cat approached from behind a hill at a thousand feet and Sumpter pushed the nose over about a mile and a half from one of the cruisers. But by this time they had been seen and when they were about a quarter of a mile from the drop, all four warships opened with heavy and light antiaircraft fire. It was like a thick wall which no airplane could possibly penetrate. Sumpter later observed that he could have lit a cigarette on the tracers – they were that close. Still, he held the Cat in its dive and continued his attack run down the centerline of the target ship (believed to have been a Katori-class cruiser). At 125 feet of altitude, he let go with his entire bomb load – no spacing. All of them landed on the unfortunate victim. The blast enveloped the aircraft and Sumpter thought they had been hit. But the aircraft still seemed to respond to his command. He dove for the water and headed for the entrance to the bay. Tracers and heavy gunfire continued to burst around the Cat as it skimmed the surface. Moments later it made a sharp turn, almost dipping a wing tip in the water, and ducked behind a point of land.

Checking the Cat over, Sumpter determined that it had not sustained any serious damage. He took up a position in the darkness just outside the bay and orbited while watching fires burn aboard the enemy vessel. Then, with weapons expended, he began the long flight back to the tender."

Wild Bill Sumpter’s spectacular pyrotechnic display was the icing on the cake for VPB-33. In fact, all the pilots and crewmen of that squadron had performed magnificently to amass a record of enemy tonnage sunk, destroyed, and damaged that no other Cat squadron was able to surpass. In the course of just over one month, forty-three ships totaling 103,500 tons had been sent to the bottom or otherwise destroyed. Twenty more adding up to 53,500 tons were severely damaged. A large number of miscellaneous vessels of various descriptions were also dispatched, although their tonnage is not included in the 157,000-ton total documented for this squadron during this period.

General MacArthur in a dispatch to the Seventh Fleet Commander Admiral Kinkaid praised the "recent magnificent performance" of the Black Cats. "No command in the war," he said, "has excelled the brilliance of their operations."

Source: "Black Cat Raiders of WWII" by Richard C. Knott, 1982 (now out of print)

[Templar]

I think that the addition of an air radar ability as has been mentioned and would show the cv group on the clipboard, would be helpful. Your comments about the negative aspects of the PBY really don't support your position of not wanting the aircraft added.  There are many niche aircraft in this game that aren't "uber" warbirds. Yet those aircraft still have uses. PBY with a search radar and applicable offensive and defensive armaments would be less useful than some/as useful as some/more useful than some. As someone said earlier, if included it will be a pioneer for new aspects of the game. That in of itself is justification for inclusion. So its not very survivable under most conditions....most support aircraft and light bomber types aren't. Oh, and to answer your burning question.....I will fly it! (That's right, me! The guy who flys TBM's low level on base strikes through furballs and flak without dedicated fighter cover.  The guy who likes going air to air in a B-25......) 

[Ghosth]

One other point to consider, with over 90 aircraft from locations scattered around the world there really are only 2 pools left to model new Aircraft from.

You have the very late war, prototype, perk plane stuff that never really saw action at the squadron level.

And you have all the hanger queens, that may be slow, but still bring something unique to AH.

The main fighters are all in there, most with variants.
Granted the Japanese plane-set needs to be filled out a bit.
And several country's are lacking good bombers.

But the planes left to build are not uber, they are not likely to be competitive in the MA environment.
They are going to be so called "hanger queens" because something else is bigger, goes faster, carry's more, etc.

That does not mean they should not be modeled and included in the game!
Indeed the opposite is true.

After almost 10 years we have gotten to the point where we can afford to have a few hanger queens.
Just for sheer style, grace and immersion!

[Rich46yo]

If you had actually READ my post I gave a couple off the top of my head situations the two lines immedately above the one I quoted. You're too busy sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to notice.
Scenarios. Snapshots. FSO. The CM teams can dream up any number of situations where the PBY could be put to good use outside the mains.
And one thing to make it useful in the Mains is if a PBY is in visual range of an enemy CV group the group appears on the map for some specified length of time, with the position updating as long as the PBY remains in contact.

You think the games rules should be changed to allow enemy sighting, on the map, CV groups that are being shadowed by PBYs? Even if that made sense whats the difference between letting them pop up on the map and letting the airplane driver, as we have now, just type their location on vox? Theres no difference. Sure you can use them in scenerios, "operative term is YOU use them", but if you have them shadowing CVs, and not allowing uppers from the CVs, then its not realistic. In real life the PBYs got shot to pieces around IJN CVs. So again, Im waiting for any uses that make sense.

Ghost I dont think we have enough aircraft modeled to include one that nobody will fly just to say we have it. I could name a dozen better fits for the game that we need instead. The PBYs would be death traps in AH. And even worse, they'd be super slow death traps. Why would anyone want to model aircraft for a game envirement we simply do not have yet. And probably nver will. Its like putting the horse behind the cart.

[jay]

the PBY would be a great plane but once somone (any plane) sees you your pretty much dead would still like to have it lol +1

[Martyn]

One of the great possibilities of AH is its potential to stage simulations (or near simulations) of real events or real environments that were encountered during the early 1940s. The PBY would be really nice to have IF we had a simulated environment where the PBY could be useful. But we don't. I always thought that it would be a good idea if HTC built plane sets for specific theatres/time slots. This may mean creating planes that are hanger queens in the free-for-all MA, but would be useful for re-enactments.

Granted, no re-enactment will be truly accurate, but nevertheless they would benefit from having aircraft modelled for them.

I would have thought that Pearl Harbor and Midway were two scenarios that would be relatively easy to model. The plane-sets were relatively limited (mostly carrier borne).

[Saxman]

You think the games rules should be changed to allow enemy sighting, on the map, CV groups that are being shadowed by PBYs? Even if that made sense whats the difference between letting them pop up on the map and letting the airplane driver, as we have now, just type their location on vox? Theres no difference. Sure you can use them in scenerios, "operative term is YOU use them", but if you have them shadowing CVs, and not allowing uppers from the CVs, then its not realistic. In real life the PBYs got shot to pieces around IJN CVs. So again, Im waiting for any uses that make sense.

Ghost I dont think we have enough aircraft modeled to include one that nobody will fly just to say we have it. I could name a dozen better fits for the game that we need instead. The PBYs would be death traps in AH. And even worse, they'd be super slow death traps. Why would anyone want to model aircraft for a game envirement we simply do not have yet. And probably nver will. Its like putting the horse behind the cart.

Once again, you're fixating on only what you want to see that you think justifies your position. Completely disregarding its use OUTSIDE THE FRICKEN MAIN ARENAS.

[Templar]

I'm not sure why you are continuing with the statement that uppers won't be allowed while a PBY is following a cv?  Also, why are you still talking about survivability and limited use?  We have heard it already. Using your logic we shouldn't fly any light bombers, dive bombers, C-47's or drive jeeps or half-tracks because they aren't" survivable" and/or have limited usefulness in the MA.  Just because YOU won't use them doesn't make them useless. So far the only decent arguement against the PBY is the water modeling and even that arguement was answered (pioneer aircraft for a new aspect of the game that is much needed and for more than just the PBY). Just because you keep repeating the same arguement over and over even after you have been answered doesn't make your points more valid today than they were yesterday or the day before etc. etc.

[Rich46yo]

Once again, you're fixating on only what you want to see that you think justifies your position. Completely disregarding its use OUTSIDE THE FRICKEN MAIN ARENAS.

Dude your frothing at the mouth. I'll ask again, what use? last time I asked you mentioned scenerios and then you brought up the main arena on your own. OK I'll ask again. Exactly what will you use them for? As in doing what?

Spotting CVs? they wont survive, probably wont survive to even find the CV. They cant do what they were good at because we dont have submarines, dont lay mines, dont have night,dont pick up pilots, dont have radar on the planes, dont have supply convoys, and probably dont have anyone who wants to float along at 140 mph until dead. In performing regular bombing duties, in real life, they took very heavy casualties because they were so slow, poorly defended, and didnt have self sealing gas tanks. In the game they would fair even worse due to the nature of the arenas. Both regular and scenerio.

Again, "exactly what would you do with the PBYs in the game"? Offhand we dont have the Jap Betty bomber, dont have the HE-111, dont have the TU-2, the PE-2, any Russian bomber period. Dont have the Beaufighter. So why do we need the PBY? If you had to launch one right now what would you do with it?

We cover other sectors from the main base with daily patrol. The only reason we're out there is to look for Japs, principally Jap task forces with carriers, and when we find a Jap task force, about two out of three times the PBY didn't come back - a little hard on morale. He sends his contact, tries to track, and on many occasions gets shot down before he starts back. Now that we're getting B-24's to take care of the so-called "hot" sectors, that situation is much better

http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Aircraft/PatRon91/

While I'm talking about losses, I'll mention that my squadron, VP-91, was originally twelve crews, of which four were lost. That's thirty three percent - a little higher than average.

Our next job was anti-sub. There are lots of Jap subs down there, but we didn't see many of them. The PBY's just aren't fast enough to get over and attack those we saw before the subs disappeared. Occasionally we caught some on the surface.

We had such a shortage of planes, and our search was so important that we were used in attacks only in emergencies. When they called out the PBY's to do bombing or torpedo work, we knew things were really bad. It was a very pleasant change from the monotony of search. We limited our attacks, however, to night work. We didn't stand a chance in a PBY in a hot area except at night.

[Saxman]

Scenarios don't have darbar. Icons appear at half the range they do in the Mains. Only RECENTLY did we fly an FSO where radar was enabled, and even then it was only in the tower. This includes for friendly dots, btw, so that bogey off in the distance might easily be sworn off as a friendly if you have an ally in that direction already. Even if you DO know where to look, I can't tell you enough how easy it can be for even a large formation of bombers to slip past you if you're not quite looking in the right direction, or if you have JUST the right background behind what you're looking at.

So even with a CAP over the carrier, a lone PBY has a decent chance of finding the boat and sneaking away before being spotted by CAP that only has a flashing dar circle and maybe the vector of a guy in the tower to go by.

And speaking of bombing runs, many Black Cat ops were undertaken at night. I flew a night PTO setup a couple months back where the settings made it so dark you literally had to fly on instruments just to tell whether you were climbing or not. So now you have no darbar, no dot dar and half-range icons under cover of darkness, with aircraft that may very easily slip underneath your CAP at low altitude. At this point the aircraft's performance becomes less important than the tactics. If utilized correctly the PBY would do just fine.

[Templar]

How survivable is a B5N2? How uber is a Stuka? Any slow dive bomber with 1 to 3 light machine guns has less than a snowballs chance in hell of getting the job done, let alone actually returning to base.  What does survivability have do do with anything in this game? We aren't all flying the uber maximized mega planes with the kung fu grip. Some people actually like the challenge of flying craft like the PBY.  if that's not for you, skip it and go fly your FWSpitStang with dual 75mm cannons and a jet engine. Your point about what other items we need more but don't have is irrelevent, this discussion is not about development priority, it s is about the technical merits of inclusion of the PBY into our game.

[tassos]

Nice plane this is the right way....to Submarines in AH

[Motherland]

Scenarios don't have darbar.

Scenarios have had darbar for as long as I can remember. It was only disabled in the last FSO because of the new in-tower radar.

I'm still confused why a big slow underdefended aircraft is good for scouting in a two hour FSO frame.

[Templar]

I've come to the conclusion that the lines have been drawn regarding this issue....the people who want the PBY and the people who don't want the PBY aren't going to make any more headway in changing each others minds. We just keep repeating the same arguements for and against over and over.  Agree to disagree?