Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Jayhawk on December 21, 2009, 12:03:32 PM
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Here, I updated the speed chart for a Lancaster. I saw a con moving towards our strat so I upped a 190 at a 7k base behind the strat to intercept. We had a pretty heavy eny and I didn't expect 30k cons so I took a 190A8. Ran into these Lancs and can only imagine he started this flight last week to get up there. I know he's significantly lighter after the long flight and the ord drop but 315, really? Lancs at 30k is wrong in the first place.
Eh, just whining.
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/Jayhawk1/genchartphp.png)
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/Jayhawk1/fastlancs.jpg)
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I saw a con moving towards our strat so I upped a 190 at a 7k base behind the strat to intercept. We had a pretty heavy eny and I didn't expect 30k cons so I took a 190A8.
Well there is your misjudgement:
As you saw the con was heading to the strat, you should have taken into account that he will be high. And by high I mean "As high as he can get".
Since the strat redesign, it has become much more difficult for bombers to bomb them. There is no much guesswork necessary for the enemy to determine where you are going to, and the rearward placement means lots of time for enemy players to spot you in map, end their current sortie and get into a very favorable position to intercept you.
Getting to altitude is thus a real necessity if you want to even get to your target (no speaking of any hopes returning to base). Also, it's such a long flight for a buff driver that climbing to "excessive altitudes" doesn't really add that more time to the sortie. And you can't really blame the bomber pilot for maximising his chances... doing a short 10 min sortie and dying before reaching the target is much less frustrating than flying for 45Min's just ti get shot down before being able to release your bombs ;)
Long story made short - if the enemy is going to the strats, expect them to be really high and chose your weapon accordingly. The 190A's were quite infamous for having trouble above 20k.
Instead of a A8 I would suggest 47M or TA 152 (ENY 10), 109K4 (ENY 15) 47D40 or Spit IX (ENY 20), 109G14 (ENY25) or in case of ENY being at 29: 109G2 with gondolas.
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Well I know one issue I have is just an incomplete understanding of all the planes and their capabilities, especially above 20-25k. I tried to take a 152 and a K4, but I believe eny was 15-16. I was expecting the con at 20-25k, definitely a mistake on my part. Believe me, I know you need to be high to survive a strat run, been there, 262 that. :)
Thanks for the help, I will keep that in mind next time I see some coming.
P.S. And as a bomber, I have noted the performance of the Lanc at 30k now.
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The 190A is not intended for very high altitude, while the Lanc runs on Merlins.....And a lightly loaded Lanc has a lot of lift. Parasite drag will also be a lot less up that high....
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Also, considering that he'd dropped his load and was trying to get home to land those damage points.
Its not too unreasonable to expect that when threatened he'd put his nose down.
Its not hard to get 300 mph out of any bomber, secret is to be able to do it without ripping your wings off.
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"while the Lanc runs on Merlins"
As you can see from the chart the performance starts to drop off after 18k -or is the chart missing something significant above 23k? Single stage, two speed supercharger on Lanc Merlin?
If you interpolate the estimate speed of a Lanc at 30k from that graph it should be around 235mph while the 190 should still trot well over 320mph.
Of course it could be that the Lanc has just made a slight descent just to build up some speed. However, you should have been able to catch him.. eventually.
Not much use, though, since A8 would be a dog to maneuver at that height and you cannot shoot at a Lanc outside the reach of his guns.
-C+
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Service ceiling of the lancs was only like 24-25k.
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... and we dont even have the historical 3000/+14lb 5 min WEP settings for it either ... :bolt:
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One thing that bugged me was I knew the service ceiling of the Lancs was significantly lower than 30-31k. That's why I classify this as a whine on my part, because they have been able to do that for a long time in game and I knew that.
The 315 is a steady level speed. I made sure to let it settle out while watching the film, he stayed at this speed and alt for about 4 sectors. My A8 had a real slight advantage (less than 5-10mph) without wep.
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There's no way that a loaded Lancaster would get to 31k ft. That is a flight model error.
Edit: if wikipedia is correct, the Lancaster had 1,280hp "Rolls-Royce Merlin XX V12 engines."
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most sources state 24,500'. then again all of the heavy buffs seem to perform better/higher than historically.
edit: the pilot notes say Merlin 28 for our B.III, about 1300hp
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Sorry but your information is incorrect. Service ceiling for any aircraft is that at which an aircraft can no longer sustain a climb rate above 100 feet per minute. It does not mean that the aircraft is incapable of climbing further.
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Anybody know the historical definition of "service ceiling"? I know today it's often "altitude where the plane is able to sustain a 100ft/min climb" - but is that the same definition that's being used for WWII bombers?
Just for the record, in AHII a Lanc that took off with 50% fuel and full bombload is getting a 300ft/min climbrate at 25k. It takes more than half an hour to get that high.
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109K4 (ENY 15)
The world must be coming to an end... snailman made a mistake, stock up on batteries and flashlights, something tells me were going to need them.
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The world must be coming to an end... snailman made a mistake, stock up on batteries and flashlights, something tells me were going to need them.
:rofl
I hope nobody is starting to count all my mistakes on this BBS... been quite a few :o
And yes, 109K's ENY is 20 of course :)
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I vaguely recall that for the WWII RAF service ceiling was defined as the point where an aircraft's climb rate drops below 500ft per minute.
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You'd be correct there Karnak. My old great uncle from the RAF joked with this, saying that the service ceiling was the limit of climb that modern day aircraft(well Cessna etc) would consider as a normal ROC. 500 was then number.
He also observed a Lancaster doing a loop. At quite some altitude. Also said that they could turn incredibly well.
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So 24-25k service ceiling @500ft/min sustained climb. Well, in my example above, I was doing 300ft/min only at 25...
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... because our lanc doesnt have the WEP it should :)
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I vaguely recall that for the WWII RAF service ceiling was defined as the point where an aircraft's climb rate drops below 500ft per minute.
Strange the R.A.F. manual A.P. 22062A-P.N Pilots and Flight Engineers Notes - Lancaster states 100 ft/min.
If the R.A.F. and U.S.A.A.F used the same terminology for two different values it would get very confusing very quickly.
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like the gallon or the ton? :D
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Absolutely. And the same applies to the calibration of ASIs, where the difference between knots (sea-miles per hour) and mph (statute miles per hour) led to the loss of an entire squadron of Hurricanes intended for Malta when the Admiral flew them off too soon and they ran out of fuel short of the island.
Whoops.
:cool:
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Sorry but your information is incorrect. Service ceiling for any aircraft is that at which an aircraft can no longer sustain a climb rate above 100 feet per minute. It does not mean that the aircraft is incapable of climbing further.
Anybody know the historical definition of "service ceiling"? I know today it's often "altitude where the plane is able to sustain a 100ft/min climb" - but is that the same definition that's being used for WWII bombers?
Just for the record, in AHII a Lanc that took off with 50% fuel and full bombload is getting a 300ft/min climbrate at 25k. It takes more than half an hour to get that high.
I actually had no idea that was the definition, don't worry, I've very aware of my ignorance on a lot of this stuff. :aok I try my best to not pretend I know what I'm talking about though, everyone slips right? You figure, ceiling, you know, the top. Every time I hit my ceiling I just get a headache...
Thanks for the edumacation.
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Absolutely. And the same applies to the calibration of ASIs, where the difference between knots (sea-miles per hour) and mph (statute miles per hour) led to the loss of an entire squadron of Hurricanes intended for Malta when the Admiral flew them off too soon and they ran out of fuel short of the island.
Whoops.
:cool:
I have that one in a book. 1.852m vs 1.609. If you guys want the account, I'll take the effort and post it ;)
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Don't forget that "Service Ceiling" is computed at a certain weight. I'd bet that, at that weight in game, the service ceiling of the Lancaster would conform almost exactly to the book value.
If the Lanc ups with 50% and has already dropped his bombs, my guess is he's a couple of thousand pounds (or more) under that weight.
Weight is a killer at altitude. If you do take a 190A8, don't take any of the extra guns. On the other hand, Snailman's recommendation of a Jug, Ta, or other high-altitude performer is a good one.
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Most are ignoring that the Lanc was doing 315mph in level flight.
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Most are ignoring that the Lanc was doing 315mph in level flight.
That information is assumed and not supplied anywhere in this thread.
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(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/Jayhawk1/fastlancs.jpg)
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(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/Jayhawk1/fastlancs.jpg)
I think Karnak meant that "level flight" was assumed, and not the 315mph speed. Unfortunately, the film doesn't show vertical speed.
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I think Karnak meant that "level flight" was assumed, and not the 315mph speed. Unfortunately, the film doesn't show vertical speed.
That is correct. We don't know that he isn't in a shallow dive, or had recently done a shallow dive, to reach that speed.
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...Just made it up to 34k with 50% fuel and no bombs in the Lancaster (used an offline air-start). Film on...we'll see how fast she goes.
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Autopilot won't hold 34k, let alone 31k. I'm starting to wonder how the pilot in Jayhawk's film even got that fast in the first place. :headscratch: It looks like ~30k is the highest alt it'll hold.
Edit: 202mph TAS after 5 min at 30k ft. Jayhawk, can you post your whole film so we can see how that pilot got to 315mph TAS?
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Let me know if I did this right, first time uploading a film to the BBS.
http://www.mediafire.com/?j1lyw1duzqt (http://www.mediafire.com/?j1lyw1duzqt)
Tell me if I'm wrong or not but it looks like he even reaches 324 at about 32k.
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...Just made it up to 34k with 50% fuel and no bombs in the Lancaster (used an offline air-start). Film on...we'll see how fast she goes.
I think that 50% fuel is close to enough to fly across the map twice in the Lancaster. Take up 25%.
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I think that 50% fuel is close to enough to fly across the map twice in the Lancaster. Take up 25%.
You have to take into accoutn that climbing to 30+ k takes a lot of time. And you don't just want to get there, you want to make it to target and (hopefully back). And of course a smart buff driver would climb to alt before entering enemy airspace - so in case he's going to bomb strats, he will still have quite some way to go.
When you take 50%, you will have just about 35 mins of fuel left when reaching 30k.
Loadout: 50% fuel, 14x1000 lbs bombs
Time to climb to
- 10K: 15 minutes
- 15K: 21 minutes
- 20K: 30 minutes
- 25K: 42 minutes
- 30K: 61 minutes
- 34k: 75 minutes
When I crossed 34k, the autopilot couldn't climb anymore, the plane went into an oscillating movement.
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Did you try level flight?
Anyway, with 14K of eggs, that is allright. Now, how about 8K of eggs?
(Still more than a B-17 :D)
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Anyway, with 14K of eggs, that is allright. Now, how about 8K of eggs?
(Still more than a B-17 :D)
I don't think that 2k more does justify much longer climbing times and much smaller survivability compared to a B-17 ;)
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my guess is the lanc driver was in a dive, probably manual trimmed.
when i played AH2 (new job pulled me away) i flew lancs regularly and when i saw an enemy con, at a low alt, my "defense" tactic was to match his speed and alt if possible i.e. a low con spotted climbing anywhere from the 4 to 8 o'clock position, i would turn to put him dead six and dive. this brought him into range of my guns, at a speed in which i had plenty of time to shoot at him,(the closer the speeds are the longer the con sits in range of my guns) but where was still climbing with little E, and (relatively) unable to maneuver. im not saying this is the best tactic or for everyone, but hey the game is meant to be fun right? also worth noting, i usually wouldnt do this if i had eggs, this was on the rtb leg of the sortie.
my $.02 and perhaps this is what the lanc driver was attempting to do
:salute
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I did post the film.
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I don't think that 2k more does justify much longer climbing times and much smaller survivability compared to a B-17 ;)
Have you tested how well the Lanc performs with the same load as a B-17???
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I think that 50% fuel is close to enough to fly across the map twice in the Lancaster. Take up 25%.
never flown a lanc? We need 75% now to hit these new strats. 50% is about 100-150miles short on range. 75% is way too much fuel :(