Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Kazaa on January 08, 2010, 05:40:20 PM
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HiTech,
Are there enough European players to warrant a European based Late War server?
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Is this for better pings or just a specific arena that such people can fly in?
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Knowing Kazaa, its just for the better ping rate we'd get utilising a european server (in theory anyway).
+1 from me
Wurzel
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+1 from me too. Help my ping out.
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I should have said "a server based in Europe".
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What are your pings at? I think mine in korea may dwarf yours :salute
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Lately 170 to 190 prior Xmas a fairly reliable 150 to 160. Packet loss is the main problem IMO.
Would a Euro server permit mixed gameplay with those using the US server? if not then I prefer the US server.
Would users of the Euro server be prepared to pay a premium? I cant see a massive influx of euro players just because ping times drop from 200 to 100! and that is the only other funding criteria I can see.
If HTC revenue increased because of access through a euro gaming portal maybe....but other wise ??????
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I just checked mine, off peak hours I was pinging 234-245. This doesnt effect the game for me though, I dont got the crazy warps like greens or joeblack and I hardly ever notice rubber bullets.
What do some of you euro guys have problems with when your playing? :salute
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I just checked mine, off peak hours I was pinging 234-245. This doesnt effect the game for me though, I dont got the crazy warps like greens or joeblack and I hardly ever notice rubber bullets.
What do some of you euro guys have problems with when your playing? :salute
I have a ping of 190 - 200 ms, not that much
my problem - that I could work out after months - is to think that the opponent is a bit ahead so I have to anticipate the moves, but how much? I think there is a thread in training section about this "ping stuff" I superficially read it long ago. Also skuzzy Tech support forum says "if you are in the 200 - 300s you are golden"
If a server based in europe is going to cut an european player's ping down to the 50s (like in first person shooters) it would be great.... but will AH cost me more? if so, no thanks, I keep my golden 200 ms.
chewi
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Well thats what I may be doing wrong then, I dont think about the lag between the 2 computers which are running the planes.
I have heard rumors that people with better computers preform better in the DA and things of that nature, I have always disagreed because I always wanted to beat the best and be the best. Are any of these rumors true? the best players have better computers along with some of the same skill?
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When I'm playing FPS games on dedicated servers, I make sure my ping to said servers are no more than 50ms max. I have a ping of around 170ms to the Texas based servers.
Also, saying that 200-300ms is the golden zone is rather laughable.
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Also, saying that 200-300ms is the golden zone is rather laughable.
it is for a FPS game. Not so much for an air combat flight sim IMO
chew
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ps: and I hope Skuzzy doesnt read your sentence, he's not indulgent towards P2Ps ... :noid (j/k)
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In any game the guy with 50ms will beat the guy with 200ms. Plus the eastcoast of the States seems particulary bad with packet loss for european players, up to 30% at times.
In AH that translates to something like this, the 200ms guy will see that the guns of the 50ms guy are way out of reach when in fact he allready has a gun solution. Or your guns firing simply a second too late for that perfect snapshot ;)
+1
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In AH that translates to something like this, the 200ms guy will see that the guns of the 50ms guy are way out of reach when in fact he allready has a gun solution.
You guys are aware that it swings both ways? That the 50ms guy has no advantage at all during air combat? Because total lag is the same for both players.
Simplified spoken: Player A has 50ms, player B has 200ms.
Data from player A -> player B takes 50ms+200ms=250ms
Data from player B -> player A takes 200ms+50ms=250ms.
So while the 200ms guy may indeed see the 50ms guy's guns out of reach while he already has a gun solution, it's also happens the other way too.
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So while the 200ms guy may indeed see the 50ms guy's guns out of reach while he already has a gun solution, it's also happens the other way too.
I would go further............ the 200ms guy has had to get used to the fact that he is towing a target on a longer rope
its either at worst 200 + 200 or at best 200 + 50 a ratio of 400:250 (8:5)
the 50ms guy has a target that can be either at best 50+ 50 or at worst 50 + 200 behind him a ratio of 100:250 (2:5)
Hence whilst the 50ms guy is (usually) towing his target on a shorter rope the degree of error as to how long the rope is as a % of its length is much higher for the 50ms guys than experienced by the 200ms guys (they know its long)
In effect the 50ms guy has two faster planes on his six both at 600-800 what he does not know is that one is a 200ms guy who has a kill shot and the other is a 50ms guy who does not. His ability to respond to the situation is slightly compramised thru ignorance.
whilst the 200ms guy who has two faster planes on his six at 600-800 positively knows that both planes almost certainly have kill shots and if one of them is a 200ms guy then he is probably toast already.
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I would go further............ the 200ms guy has had to get used to the fact that he is towing a target on a longer rope
its either at worst 200 + 200 or at best 200 + 50 a ratio of 400:250 (8:5)
the 50ms guy has a target that can be either at best 50+ 50 or at worst 50 + 200 behind him a ratio of 100:250 (2:5)
Hence whilst the 50ms guy is (usually) towing his target on a shorter rope the degree of error as to how long the rope is as a % of its length is much higher for the 50ms guys than experienced by the 200ms guys (they know its long)
In effect the 50ms guy has two faster planes on his six both at 600-800 what he does not know is that one is a 200ms guy who has a kill shot and the other is a 50ms guy who does not. His ability to respond to the situation is slightly compramised thru ignorance.
whilst the 200ms guy who has two faster planes on his six at 600-800 positively knows that both planes almost certainly have kill shots and if one of them is a 200ms guy then he is probably toast already.
you lost me :confused:
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I just checked mine, off peak hours I was pinging 234-245.
Korea has 21st century telecommunications infrastructure. The same distance from the states, but in another country, and you'd be in disco city.
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Korea has 21st century telecommunications infrastructure. The same distance from the states, but in another country, and you'd be in disco city.
Yea, from what I hear(I dont know much about this stuff) Korea does have great internet, but Im in the country living on a Army post, its not as good as you may think, ask anyone who has dueled me before, especially when I had the real slow stuff :D :salute
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you lost me :confused:
Well you know that stuff in the rear view mirror is closer than it seems................ and what the guy behind you is looking at on his FE is where you were (not where you are on your FE)
As the combined ping increases so this effect increases... For experienced high ping players its like your towing a target and its that target that everyone is shooting at.
Any way I cant see how a euro server would help unless it was attached to some sort of hyper pipe back to the US server such that by using this intermediate server the total ping reduced significantly.
If its possible it would be interesting to know the additional cost per player if say 100euro subscribers took it up. Plus the actual ping reduction would need to be substabtial, as I say i would be more interested in packet transfer efficiency.
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funny I get 150- and zero packet loss from France...Even if they did a Euro server I'll probably on the US one just to be with my mates. :cheers:
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In effect the 50ms guy has two faster planes on his six both at 600-800 what he does not know is that one is a 200ms guy who has a kill shot and the other is a 50ms guy who does not. His ability to respond to the situation is slightly compramised thru ignorance.
whilst the 200ms guy who has two faster planes on his six at 600-800 positively knows that both planes almost certainly have kill shots and if one of them is a 200ms guy then he is probably toast already.
It may looks like so, but in fact there are no any significant difference between 50 and 200ms ping.
Lets do some math.
1) Player A (50ms) have Player B (50ms) closing his six at 300 m/s. Total lag is 100ms, for B distance will be less by 300*0.1 = 30m (say 570 instead of 600).
2) Player A (50ms) have Player B (200ms) closing his six at 300 m/s. Total lag is 250ms, for B distance will be less by 300*0.25 = 75m (say 525 instead of 600), 45m closer than in 1st case.
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True Oleg I should have done all the math....
To complete your analysis the 200 + 200 scenario shows an error of 120m
I agree Noir this all only works if euro players still have access to the US server via the Euro server
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Someone needs to call God and tell him that the speed of light is just too slow for internet gaming, and needs to be increased.
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Someone needs to call God and tell him that the speed of light is just too slow for internet gaming, and needs to be increased.
:aok :lol
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Someone needs to call God and tell him that the speed of light is just too slow for internet gaming, and needs to be increased.
:rofl
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that's actually true :lol
if the server is on a point of the earth surface and a player is on the opposite side there are S=~20.000 km, c=300.000 km/s ==>> t = S/c = 20.000/300.000 = .066 seconds = 66ms
but the ping is defined as time interval between "request" and "reply received" time.... no? so that's it ~130ms of ping ... add the other little billion trips in the transistor .. and it raises again.. am I correct?
I dont know much about how internet systems works.
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If you run a trace route, you well see thast each router will add a delay to the ping time, how much will depend on how much traffic is passing thru any given router. I like ping plotter, give a good indication of where a delay is incurred or a packet can be losted.
DHawk
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You guys should move to Texas. I average about 6-15 ping in Houston.
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You guys should move to Texas. I average about 6-15 ping in Houston.
yeah, but then they would be in texas :uhoh :uhoh.
semp
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my company can offer 40GBit internetaccess, own AS total 3 stages fault proteced
you are in 20ms in moscau
22 ms in London
11 ms in Frankfurt
17 ms in milano
97 ms in Washinton
a 4 Core HP blade server 8GB ram, 2*144GB is availbe for 250€ per month, 480€ if you want to run a cluster, energy and traffic included, additional plus service (is you want some)
We are moving 750TB eachmonth, focused on international industry customers. Just to show how ceap and solid it can be
<S>
dhy
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my company can offer 40GBit internetaccess, own AS total 3 stages fault proteced
you are in 20ms in moscau
22 ms in London
11 ms in Frankfurt
17 ms in milano
97 ms in Washinton
a 4 Core HP blade server 8GB ram, 2*144GB is availbe for 250€ per month, 480€ if you want to run a cluster, energy and traffic included, additional plus service (is you want some)
We are moving 750TB eachmonth, focused on international industry customers. Just to show how ceap and solid it can be
<S>
dhy
I'm interested just in the internet access ... :O 40Gb ... but I'm 40 kms from Milan... and I guess that's only for enterprises.. how would it cost btw ?
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I'm interested just in the internet access ... :O 40Gb ... but I'm 40 kms from Milan... and I guess that's only for enterprises.. how would it cost btw ?
i can tell you, its realy relaxed surfing :)
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You guys are aware that it swings both ways? That the 50ms guy has no advantage at all during air combat? Because total lag is the same for both players.
Simplified spoken: Player A has 50ms, player B has 200ms.
Data from player A -> player B takes 50ms+200ms=250ms
Data from player B -> player A takes 200ms+50ms=250ms.
So while the 200ms guy may indeed see the 50ms guy's guns out of reach while he already has a gun solution, it's also happens the other way too.
Nope cause the guy with 50ms will have his guns firing the moment he presses the trigger, the 200ms guy will have a notable delay between pressing the trigger and the guns actually firing. The guy with the higher ping will always be at a disadvantage.
I can give you 2 films, one from my view and one from a guy in the states, on my film I dont even see the other guy firing, on his film you can see the bullets hitting and my plane going on for a bit till it explodes.
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Nope cause the guy with 50ms will have his guns firing the moment he presses the trigger, the 200ms guy will have a notable delay between pressing the trigger and the guns actually firing. The guy with the higher ping will always be at a disadvantage.
I can give you 2 films, one from my view and one from a guy in the states, on my film I dont even see the other guy firing, on his film you can see the bullets hitting and my plane going on for a bit till it explodes.
That's not exactly right. There is no delay in firing the guns at all. All firing is done and resolved on the shooters FE. The moment I press the trigger, my guns shoot. If I hit the enemy on my screen, the hits are determined and this info is transmitted to him.
Where the delay comes into play is in transmitting the results of that burst to your enemy. That's where the latency (signal travel time) comes into play.
But again: My guns aren't shooting later when I have a bigger ping. My enemy is just seeing the results somewhat later. And it's very important to keep in mind that this goes BOTH ways. Important is total lag (= my latency+enemy latency) which affects both players in the same way.
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at ping 170 i would keep playing on the Us server where all the friends and action are.
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When I'm playing FPS games on dedicated servers, I make sure my ping to said servers are no more than 50ms max. I have a ping of around 170ms to the Texas based servers.
Also, saying that 200-300ms is the golden zone is rather laughable.
No, its not. Our game is not dependent on a fast ping rate. It is dependent on a consistent ping rate. I happen to know a bit more about how our connections work, than you do. FPS games are very different in how they work.
Informational updates are sent to and from your computer a a constant rate up to 4 a second. Thats 250ms. If you have a 10ms ping, you still only get updates up to 250ms apart and your computer only sends them at that rate as well.
It is the same as running a video with vsync disabled. Your monitor is only capable of displaying information at its vsync rate. Once you exceed that, in frame rate, you just do not see what a game would be generating. No visual difference whatsoever (aside form possible 'tearing' anomalies in the display).
The only difference ping time makes, when it is under 250ms, is the static position of each plane in each players "world". This is where the consistent ping comes into play. As long as it is consistent, the planes relative position updates will be nice and smooth. If you get a gun solution on your opponent and hit him, he takes damage and vice-versa. Like Lusche said, there is lag to get the hits to the player who got hit, but it works both ways. This levels the playing field. Remember, every player flys to position himself/herself realtive to everything in thier own world.
Are there occasional oddities? Yes. High speed, high G maneuvers can show placement issues, but that is more to do with the update rate than anything else.
To the topic at hand. The only gain to have a European based server would be for anyone in Europe and that arena would be on its own. To tie it to a U.S. server would not solve any problem with ping times.
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Alrite Skuzzy here is a question, is it possible to adjust that rate of updates in order to compensate for the delay and packetloss?
Like I said I have a perfect example of 2 films from the same scene, on my film they are no shots, no flashes nothing, just an enemy plane and the next thing is the tower, on his film you can see all the shots, all the hits and even how the plane explodes several seconds later. I gladly send them to you to show you how much of a delay there can be.
All I want is to have an equal playing field.
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Alrite Skuzzy here is a question, is it possible to adjust that rate of updates in order to compensate for the delay and packetloss?
Like I said I have a perfect example of 2 films from the same scene, on my film they are no shots, no flashes nothing, just an enemy plane and the next thing is the tower, on his film you can see all the shots, all the hits and even how the plane explodes several seconds later. I gladly send them to you to show you how much of a delay there can be.
All I want is to have an equal playing field.
No. The rate of updates is done to allow players with slower connections to be able to play the game. In a film where you see no shots, and you are dead, it means there was packet loss or delays on the connection (variance) which caused the dead player to get all the hits and kill shot in one packet. The server does not give up on transmitting those packets, and all other packets will get backed up into the queue until those are successfully delivered.
In a film like that, one, or more, of the connections were not acting normal. i.e. there was an inconsistency in the ping rates or packet loss which caused the problem. Faster update rates will not solve that issue, nor will lower ping times.
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Does this differ from arena to arena? For me SEA 2 seems alot worse then for instance Orange or Blue.
So in other words we are screwed....or is there anything us euro's with bad packetloss can do?
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The only difference an arena will make is the number of players/objects in your view. Think about it. If you have 128 players in view, your computer is getting update information for all 128 objects, at up to 4 times a second. The more information there is, the higher processing load there is on your computer.
The processing load is measurable in CPU time, video card time, sound card time, and network time. As a relative comparison, your computer is going to run slower in higher load situations, than in other arenas where there is a lighter load. If your computer slows down to the point where it is struggling to keep up with the influx of data, things can get really wonky (i.e. packet loss, inconsistent ping times due to the CPU not being able to respond to a network request as fast as we exepct it to...)
Wonky, not just for you, but for anyone who has you in thier view as well.
Overseas packet loss is simply due to congestion of the main communication lines between countries. What causes that congestion? A number of things no one really wants to hear about.
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So in other words we are screwed....or is there anything us euro's with bad packetloss can do?
Nope, this is not true as I understand it Viperus.
Europeans are not screwed. People with dodgy connections or inconsistent connection will have these difficulties if they are in texas or in europe either way. People with a consistent connection will not have these problems no matter which country they are from.
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Nope, this is not true as I understand it Viperus.
Europeans are not screwed. People with dodgy connections or inconsistent connection will have these difficulties if they are in texas or in europe either way. People with a consistent connection will not have these problems no matter which country they are from.
@Mech the problem is that the eastcoast of the states (Where my signal goes from sea to land again) has really bad packetloss, we are talking up to 30% at times. My own connection is 20 Mbit on a fiber backbone.
@Skuzzy
Ye I figured as much but the strange thing is I get these wonky situations alot in the SEA 2 even during Koth events with less then 20 players in the arena and less then 2 planes in sight.
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It could be the other guy is the issue then Viperius. His connection/computer may be such that it is not able to get reliable updates sent to the server in a timely manner.
If you are getting up to 30% packet loss, then all bets are off. Putting a server in your room would not reduce that packet loss. It would just move it to the server.
We can tell from a film who is the issue.
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It could be the other guy is the issue then Viperius. His connection/computer may be such that it is not able to get reliable updates sent to the server in a timely manner.
If you are getting up to 30% packet loss, then all bets are off. Putting a server in your room would not reduce that packet loss. It would just move it to the server.
We can tell from a film who is the issue.
I only get 30% packet loss once the signal hits the east coast of the states, if I ping anything else in europe its all fine.
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Yes, but if a server was placed overseas it would suffer the 30% packet loss you are suffering. So it would have to be a dedicated arena, which means it would not be very well populated. While some players might enjoy it, seeing the arena with a couple of hundred players in it would be too tempting and reduce the numbers in the European arena/server to the point it simply would not make good business sense.
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Ye I see your point.
And we are back to we are screwed :lol
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Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us mortals Skuzzy.
/thread.
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well written skuzzy, i finally understood the packet loss/delay/ping thingy :rock.
semp
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If the United States ever gets around to upgrading its telecommunications infrastructure to match the standard of Europe and Japan/Korea, then I would bet you guys would see much improved ping times.
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If the United States ever gets around to upgrading its telecommunications infrastructure to match the standard of Europe and Japan/Korea, then I would bet you guys would see much improved ping times.
Don't hold your breath for that one. You would have better odds of Duke Nukem being shipped first.
Overseas cable connections are a shared cost between the points of origin for the installation. The installation costs runs well into the hundreds of millions of dollars. Maintenance is several million dollars a month. So you have two countries who have to agree on the installation and maintance costs.
There has to be a huge voice demand for more bandwidth. Internet performance is not a criteria for increasing that bandwidth.
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I just checked mine, off peak hours I was pinging 234-245. This doesnt effect the game for me though, I dont got the crazy warps like greens or joeblack and I hardly ever notice rubber bullets.
What do some of you euro guys have problems with when your playing? :salute
I'm dial-up in VA, have slightly lower than yours (usually 200-ish) As long as I don't leave Drudge Report or something in open window constantly refreshing, I'm ok. My grief is it takes like 10 minutes for jug to get anywhere at a safe alt...I get bored...surf web....get disco'd :cry
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"Internet performance is not a criteria for increasing that bandwidth."
Would it be beneficial to have an internet connection which would be optimized to faster packet rate, not data rate since the gamers do not need lots of data but consistent and fast packet rate?
What I'm suggesting here is a dedicated game network which is not optimized to down/upload things but to provide faster packet rate. I don't know a zit about protocols so I probably don't know what I'm suggesting here. :lol
-C+
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Actually, Lucent/Alcatel finished a trial run of a new connection technology for long haul underseas cables. It is fiber optic based, but much, much smaller and faster than the current technology allows. It makes use of 155 different carrier frequencies and places a bit of data on the trailing and rising edges of each pulse. They were able to transfer 15.5TB of data in one second, over a 1,000 mile loop. That is about 400DVD's, in one second.
They are just waiting around for the countries to decide to pay for it to be installed.
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Thanks Skuzzy for all of your clarifications. I am a book person who does not feel very at home in the world of computers---your explanations were very helpful <S>.
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Somebody else had already thought what I was thinking too:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.98.7687&rep=rep1&type=pdf
GTP = Game Transfer Protocol
-C+
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Skuzzy, I hate to hijack this thread but I have a question regarding performance in AH.
The smoothing code tends to make even most wild maneuvers able to be tracked both by visually and by the computer. The only time I feel it is having trouble is with a bandit rapidly changing his vectors.
For example, a 190 (most common culprit) is pulling a low G turn to the left in an attempt to make me overshoot. When he sees the overshoot isn't going to occur, he rolls 180 degrees and begins a 4-5G turn to the right. Once again, the overshoot fails so he begins wild rolls and never maintaining the same heading for more than a second or so. You can also recreate this to a lesser extent by snaprolling within AH, even my BABe (big a** bird) P38 can perform this.
The question I have is this; if he decides to 'have a seizure' at the stick will my computer still register hits according to what I see on my FE or does it need to coincide to what is happening on his end? From everything I know, it is the former rather than the later but I want to make sure I am correct before I inform students of this.
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If you fire and hit the target, the target takes damage, regardless of what the targets front end looks like. That all presumes the network is acting normally.
It is possible to hit the target and the target not appear to take any damage if there is problems with the network connection of either player. This is where the delayed kill comes in.
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Overseas packet loss is simply due to congestion of the main communication lines between countries. What causes that congestion? A number of things no one really wants to hear about.
Adult Content :rofl
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One network oddity I notice is that I register hits on a plane, and then it explodes without myself getting any credit for the kill.
I guess the other guy got to him first, so on his end hes dead and I'm effectively shooting a ghost? This always happens to me whilst flying with my squad mates.. :cry
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Not a ghost. A few patches ago, we instituted a change where the player has done the bulk of the damage to the plane gets credit for the kill even when if he does not fire the shot that actually killed the player.
It is not as simple as I make it sound, but that is the gest of the change.