Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Shifty on January 16, 2010, 02:45:07 PM
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(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/1436/gunsh.png)
On top is the M1 Garand my son Thomas gave me this past Father's Day.
Below it is the M-14 he just purchased for himself.
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Nice looking guns. The stocks almost look identical.
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Yes I never realized until he brought the M-14 over today how much both weapons resemble each other.
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Except that the M14 shoots waaaay bigger bullets!
-Penguin
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Except that the M14 shoots waaaay bigger bullets!
-Penguin
Huh? :headscratch: :huh
M1 Garand, chambered for 30-06.
M-14, chambered for .308.
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Look at the magazine!
But the comparison you're making is like comparing the Desert Eagle to the Browning M2HB. They are both chambered in .50 caliber; it's just that the Desert Eagle shoots .50 Action Express, and the M2HB shoots machine gun rounds.
You can't tell me that the bullets in the M1 Garand aren't smaller than the M14 bullets.
-Penguin
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The M1 was the finest battlefield implement ever made, why waste a good design.
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Look at the magazine!
But the comparison you're making is like comparing the Desert Eagle to the Browning M2HB. They are both chambered in .50 caliber; it's just that the Desert Eagle shoots .50 Action Express, and the M2HB shoots machine gun rounds.
You can't tell me that the bullets in the M1 Garand aren't smaller than the M14 bullets.
-Penguin
:huh
I can tell you that they shoot bullets that are the exact same diameter. However, the M1903 (30-06) cartridge chambered in the M1 is larger than the that of the 7.62mm X 52mm chambered in the M14/M1A. The M1903 develops a tad greater muzzle velocity (typically 100 fps when both push 150 grain FMJ boat-tails). Both are considered full-size rifle cartridges.
My regards,
Widewing
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Look at the magazine!
But the comparison you're making is like comparing the Desert Eagle to the Browning M2HB. They are both chambered in .50 caliber; it's just that the Desert Eagle shoots .50 Action Express, and the M2HB shoots machine gun rounds.
You can't tell me that the bullets in the M1 Garand aren't smaller than the M14 bullets.
-Penguin
Penquin the Garand is 30-06, and the M-14 is 7.62
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Look at the magazine!
But the comparison you're making is like comparing the Desert Eagle to the Browning M2HB. They are both chambered in .50 caliber; it's just that the Desert Eagle shoots .50 Action Express, and the M2HB shoots machine gun rounds.
You can't tell me that the bullets in the M1 Garand aren't smaller than the M14 bullets.
-Penguin
the bullets are .008" bigger.the case is actually shorter.
here is a pic for comparison.
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc91/not2187/Mobile%20Uploads/mms_picture.jpg)
.308 on left. .30-06 on right.
NOT
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Penquin, you may be mistaking the clips of the M1 Garand for magazines.
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The M1 was the finest battlefield implement ever made, why waste a good design.
M1 Garand was good for its day but had three serious flaws.
1. You can't top up the clip after you shoot rounds out of it.
2. You must empty the clip of all eight rounds and eject the clip before you can reload.
3. When you fire the last round, the loud "PLING" noise the clip makes announces to the whole world that you're out of ammo!
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Look at the magazine!
You can't tell me that the bullets in the M1 Garand aren't smaller than the M14 bullets.
-Penguin
Different kind of magazines, the Garand uses more like stripper clips, only the end of the round fits in the clip.
You may be thinking of the M1 Carbine.
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Huh? :headscratch: :huh
M1 Garand, chambered for 30-06.
M-14, chambered for .308.
M-1 good Deer rifle
14 destroyer of beer cans ! :D
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I don't think that penguin undersands the difference between the M1 Garand and the M1 carbine. FWIW all 3 shoot the same diameter slug, 7.62. (.30 cal) The M14 and the Garand shoot a much heavier 7.62 slug in the 147 to 150 grain range, the M1 Carbine uses the 110 gr. short stubby bullet.
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Except that the M14 shoots waaaay bigger bullets!
-Penguin
Penguin, all I can say is:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2788/4127992813_91c0640808.jpg)
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Except that the M14 shoots waaaay bigger bullets!
-Penguin
Penguin, all I can say is:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2788/4127992813_91c0640808.jpg)
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Except that the M14 shoots waaaay bigger bullets!
-Penguin
Look at the magazine!
But the comparison you're making is like comparing the Desert Eagle to the Browning M2HB. They are both chambered in .50 caliber; it's just that the Desert Eagle shoots .50 Action Express, and the M2HB shoots machine gun rounds.
You can't tell me that the bullets in the M1 Garand aren't smaller than the M14 bullets.
-Penguin
Penguin, all I can say is:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2788/4127992813_91c0640808.jpg)
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I don't think that penguin undersands the difference between the M1 Garand and the M1 carbine. FWIW all 3 shoot the same diameter slug, 7.62. (.30 cal) The M14 and the Garand shoot a much heavier 7.62 slug in the 147 to 150 grain range, the M1 Carbine uses the 110 gr. short stubby bullet.
I think that Penguin is further confused by looking at the en bloc clip of the M1 and assuming it's actually a magazine. Here's a photo of a loaded en-bloc clip.
(http://www.a-human-right.com/garand.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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I understand the difference, but I thought that you were talking about the carbine version of the weapon (the picture didn't really show that it was an en bloc). I should have been more observant of the bottom of the gun and noticed that it didn't have a lower reciever.
Hey, just to wonder, why is the clip for the M14 longer?
-Penguin
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I understand the difference, but I thought that you were talking about the carbine version of the weapon (the picture didn't really show that it was an en bloc). I should have been more observant of the bottom of the gun and noticed that it didn't have a lower reciever.
Hey, just to wonder, why is the clip for the M14 longer?
-Penguin
20 round magazine on the M-14
The en bloc clip for the M-1 holds 8 rounds.
The picture would have been better had I put rounds in the en blocs. However I fired all the rounds I had recently. :D
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I mean longer as in from back to front.
-Penguin
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I mean longer as in from back to front.
-Penguin
(http://image.sportsmansguide.com/dimage/131359_ts.JPG?cell=320,320&cvt=jpeg)
Compare the full magazine to the loaded en bloc clips above.
My regards,
Widewing
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Penquin, you may be mistaking the clips of the M1 Garand for magazines.
+1
(http://www.cromwell-intl.com/garand/m1-garand-assembly/pictures/ammo-dscf0282.jpg)
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I can't really tell, I think they're of equal length. :headscratch:
-Penguin
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The M1 was the finest battlefield implement ever made, why waste a good design.
wanst that a quote by Patton?
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Hey, just to wonder, why is the clip for the M14 longer?
That's what happens when it carries more than twice the ammunition :lol
I can't really tell, I think they're of equal length. :headscratch:
-Penguin
????
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/AK_Comrade/hoodydoody.png)
Also, does an M14 (or any select fire rifle in .308, G3, FAL etc) have about the same recoil as a bolt action chambered for .308? Having shot .308 through a bolt action I can't imagine shooting it in full auto.
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Yes it does, plus that open bolt (M14) slapping you in the shoulder every time that you fire.
What I was alluding to was that I didn't see a loaded clip and a magazine side by side. In the first photo, of course they are not. I was referring to the photo where the clip was loaded.
-Penguin
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Yes it does, plus that open bolt (M14) slapping you in the shoulder every time that you fire.
What I was alluding to was that I didn't see a loaded clip and a magazine side by side. In the first photo, of course they are not. I was referring to the photo where the clip was loaded.
-Penguin
Disagree... I've fired several M14s as well as the CETME 58, H&K G3A3 and FN FAL. None of these kick as sharply as a bolt action shooting the same cartridge.
My regards,
Widewing
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Part of the recoil of the Garand and the M14 is mitigated by the forward motion of the bolt as it returns to battery. Both riflles are also heavier than the standard bolt action hunting rifle and that help take some sting out of the recoil. I shot more than a 50 rounds from a Garand in one day and the recoil was far less noticeable than that from a Remington in .308 (7.62 nato or 7.62 x 51) with a nice recoil pad. The Garand had the normal steel recoil pad mounted.
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Interesting! Thanks.
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Penguin, you should stop talking in this thread, I am sorry but the reality is you don't have a clue about anything being discussed here.
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Part of the recoil of the Garand and the M14 is mitigated by the forward motion of the bolt as it returns to battery. Both riflles are also heavier than the standard bolt action hunting rifle and that help take some sting out of the recoil. I shot more than a 50 rounds from a Garand in one day and the recoil was far less noticeable than that from a Remington in .308 (7.62 nato or 7.62 x 51) with a nice recoil pad. The Garand had the normal steel recoil pad mounted.
+1
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Dago,
Once he stops trying to recover his weaponology cool, (that he doesn't have) he might actually learn something.
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M1 Garand was good for its day but had three serious flaws.
1. You can't top up the clip after you shoot rounds out of it.
2. You must empty the clip of all eight rounds and eject the clip before you can reload.
3. When you fire the last round, the loud "PLING" noise the clip makes announces to the whole world that you're out of ammo!
This last one was actually used for the Americans...If you are out of ammo then the enemy would jump up and start shooting...well in WWII about 4 or 5 guys would purposly empty their clips and then the germans would think they were out of ammo...well to their surprise about 10 other guys would be waiting for them to jump up and shoot them!
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This might interest you gents (though they are chinese clones): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf6zKwuak0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_eEW0WRi3g
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I just bought a 308 enfield today for $200 at cabela's....... let me tell you somethng. I made off like a bandit because the thing is a tack driver. It is a 1968 enfield a2.
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Dago,
Once he stops trying to recover his weaponology cool, (that he doesn't have) he might actually learn something.
Maverick, you made a couple really good and informative posts, maybe you are helping him learn. :aok
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Part of the recoil of the Garand and the M14 is mitigated by the forward motion of the bolt as it returns to battery. Both riflles are also heavier than the standard bolt action hunting rifle and that help take some sting out of the recoil. I shot more than a 50 rounds from a Garand in one day and the recoil was far less noticeable than that from a Remington in .308 (7.62 nato or 7.62 x 51) with a nice recoil pad. The Garand had the normal steel recoil pad mounted.
Yes, the heavier rifles will eat more energy, reducing felt recoil. However, both the Garand and the M14 are gas operated. The gas system bleeds off some gas from the barrel to cycle the action. This also eats energy. They have "softer" systems, whereas the bolt action rifle transfers all of the energy right into the stock.
My regards,
Widewing
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I learnt to shoot on the standard British Army Lee Enfield Mk.IV 0.303". Splendid weapon.
:old:
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Disagree... I've fired several M14s as well as the CETME 58, H&K G3A3 and FN FAL. None of these kick as sharply as a bolt action shooting the same cartridge.
My regards,
Widewing
My older brother is in ARNG airborne, who has fired the FN FAL as well as a plethora of other weapons.. He said it was the loudest gun he's ever fired, I'm curious as to what your comments are on that statement?
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I learnt to shoot on the standard British Army Lee Enfield Mk.IV 0.303". Splendid weapon.
:old:
I've never seen a lee Enfield with my own eyes, but from the pictures she sure is a beauty. I would love to shoot one sometime :aok
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I have fired a M1 and a M14............Ill stick with my M4 and all the stuff you can put on it :D
(https://www.evotactical.com/images/m4-sopmod-poster.jpg)
The M4 I used here in the ROK had the M203 with a CCO, great weapon never had any problems with it and shot expert everytime :salute
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Shifty, is the M14 your son bought a Springfield M1A? I had one for a bit. I was surprised how heavy the thing was. Beautiful rifle, but I went back to the AR-15.
Is your Garand a new one or does it have some history to it?
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:furious :furious :furious
Damn! Mine (M1) and my dads (M14) dream guns.
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Shifty, is the M14 your son bought a Springfield M1A? I had one for a bit. I was surprised how heavy the thing was. Beautiful rifle, but I went back to the AR-15.
I have both, just in case :D
Shifty, awsome rifles! We should go shoot one of these days.
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My older brother is in ARNG airborne, who has fired the FN FAL as well as a plethora of other weapons.. He said it was the loudest gun he's ever fired, I'm curious as to what your comments are on that statement?
I was in the Irish army reserve and at the time, we used both the Lee Enfield .303 and the FN FAL. I can vouch for the fact that the FN is extremely loud with a strong cracking sound. Particularly on the range when you were firing alongside others without ear protection. The strange thing was that it was always your left ear that was affected most because the ejection slot of the rifle of the guy on your left was facing you. Your own rifle didn't affect you as much. I think the loudness is as much to do with the larger 7.62 round compared to the more common modern 5.56 these days.
As for the kick, well compared to the .303s we were used to. It was nothing. I remember coming home from range practice black and blue from the recoil. I even heard of someone breaking a collar bone. We often used to place our berets under out tunics to absorb some of the recoil. Of course as we got experience, it was less sore as we toughened up.
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Incidentally on that note. I recently came across this picture on the net. It's the unofficial website of modern unit that absorbed my old Battalion. The handsome figure nearest the camera is me. (http://www.62infantry.com/images/photos/historical/RANGE%20GORMO.jpg) By way of explanation, this was the late seventies, hence the hair. I can't remember why I'm in shirt sleeve order but wearing combat trousers. I think I may have be on duty in the Officers mess that day as a waiter but went to the range as well. But as I mentioned above there's the beret tucked under my shoulder strap to absorb some of the recoil. In my defence, I might add that was only the second time I fired the thing and it was recruit camp.
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Incidentally on that note. I recently came across this picture on the net. It's the unofficial website of modern unit that absorbed my old Battalion. The handsome figure nearest the camera is me. (http://www.62infantry.com/images/photos/historical/RANGE%20GORMO.jpg) By way of explanation, this was the late seventies, hence the hair. I can't remember why I'm in shirt sleeve order but wearing combat trousers. I think I may have be on duty in the Officers mess that day as a waiter but went to the range as well. But as I mentioned above there's the beret tucked under my shoulder strap to absorb some of the recoil. In my defence, I might add that was only the second time I fired the thing and it was recruit camp.
I dont see it..
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You're one of the lucky ones :D
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Shifty, is the M14 your son bought a Springfield M1A? I had one for a bit. I was surprised how heavy the thing was. Beautiful rifle, but I went back to the AR-15.
Is your Garand a new one or does it have some history to it?
I'm not sure about the M-14 Dan. Thomas wasn't here long with it I barely had time to snap the picture of it. :lol I'll ask him as soon as I talk to him.
As far as my Garand, it'sa newer one not used in WWII or Korea. Like the M-14 the M-1 is also very heavy when you consider that people were basically smaller back in WW II you wonder how those guys carried it around all day every day. Also Widewing and Maverick's post about the gas operation and weight of the weapon eating some of the energy out of the kick is spot on. The Garand shoots very smoothly, my wife loves to fire it. Where as she hates to shoot my 12 gauge pump. I had to buy her a 20 gauge semi for our clay pigeon plinking.
I have both, just in case :D
Shifty, awsome rifles! We should go shoot one of these days.
I'm all for it Slash. :aok In fact we live so close to each other it's a shame we haven't at least met for a beer after all these years.
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My older brother is in ARNG airborne, who has fired the FN FAL as well as a plethora of other weapons.. He said it was the loudest gun he's ever fired, I'm curious as to what your comments are on that statement?
Anything shooting 7.62x51 out of a 16" barrel will be extremely loud. The most impressive noise I ever heard out of a 7.62x51 battle rifle was the Mk17 SCAR-H with a 13" barrel. The muzzle flash was awe inspiring as well.
My regards,
Widewing
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I was surprised how heavy the thing was.
In the UNC Honor Guard we had little comps to see who can spin the M14 the longest, they are pretty heavy but not that bad
:salute
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Wow! There are some absolutley silly comments about the M1 here. Sorry, playing Call of Duty on your X-Box doesn't really count for M1 experience.
To the op, awesome to have both and welcome to the Garand club. The more you shoot it, the more you become a Garand-a-holic :aok Just remember, the Garand eats 150gr M2 Mil ammo only! It's not a Springfield, using higher Grain or higher powder/different powders with different burn rates besides IMR 4895 family will eventually damage it. You will eventually bend the Op-Rod handle. You can get around this by running a Schuster Gas Bleed (it replaces the standard gas plug) which then allows you run up to a roughly a 180gr bullet.
The best source of Garand Ammo is the CMP (Civilan Marksmanship Program), if your not yet set up as a authorized buyer do it! The savings in Ammo alone is worth it. They are the last source for the Spam Cans 1960's-1970's Greek HXP M2 ammo already preloaded in the En-Blocs. Greece and South Korea were the last countries to use the M1 in its original configuration. Korean M2 is also availibile (and good) but, I havent seen it availible in bulk for some time. The big bonus is the HXP Greek Ammo is pre-loaded it is in good true Mil-Spec En-Bloc's already. For the most part the En-Bloc's you can buy today are Chinese crap steel which may cause a mis-feed or even early ejection.
For real fun, try and pick up some of our Army's Lake City Match Ammo. You usually can find it a better Gun Shows running around $20-30 for a box of 20. It's a waste for shorter distances and plinking but, take your Garand to a 500 yard range and blow your mind! Congrats to you and your son and enjoy!
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I have fired a M1 and a M14............Ill stick with my M4 and all the stuff you can put on it :D
(https://www.evotactical.com/images/m4-sopmod-poster.jpg)
The M4 I used here in the ROK had the M203 with a CCO, great weapon never had any problems with it and shot expert everytime :salute
Colt's M4 is a good rifle. It does require a major upgrade to remain competitive. Colt has an entirely new gas system for the next generation. Colt has already tested it for commonality with our shot counter. This new piston-type gas system will make the rifle far more reliable in dusty, sandy environments. Also, the H&K 416, FN Mk16 SCAR L and the Remington ACR are all better weapons than the current M4. Of all of these, I believe that the ACR (Adaptive Combat Rifle) is the best. One of the above (revised M4, H&K 416, SCAR L or ACR) WILL replace the current issue M4 in the next 6 to 10 years. All of the weapons have the various picatinny rails that will accommodate all of the hardware that you can now fit to the M4.
My regards,
Widewing
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Colt's M4 is a good rifle. It does require a major upgrade to remain competitive. Colt has an entirely new gas system for the next generation. Colt has already tested it for commonality with our shot counter. This new piston-type gas system will make the rifle far more reliable in dusty, sandy environments. Also, the H&K 416, FN Mk16 SCAR L and the Remington ACR are all better weapons than the current M4. Of all of these, I believe that the ACR (Adaptive Combat Rifle) is the best. One of the above (revised M4, H&K 416, SCAR L or ACR) WILL replace the current issue M4 in the next 6 to 10 years. All of the weapons have the various picatinny rails that will accommodate all of the hardware that you can now fit to the M4.
My regards,
Widewing
They are gunna take some time to hit the Infantry divisions, I havnt got a chance to use or see them in person so I have no clue about them :salute
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You'll also find the truth regarding the "Greatest Battle Implement" statement to be true if you have any of its contemporaries
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c261/rstel/IMG_2059.jpg)
Thats my WW2 Shooter Collection, took about 17 years to really get them as it is the main battle rifle for every main WW2 Combatant.
The prerequisite was to be un-mutilated, all headstamps and markings complete (Including German "Nazi" Waffenmat and Japanese Imperial Chrysanthemum). They all had to be built in 39-45.
The Top is my 44 Built Springfield M-1 Garand
Next is 1943 Mosin Nagant M44
Then 1943 Mk IV Lee Enfield
Then 1941 Mauser 98K
And Finally 1944 Arisika Type 99
Shooting and owning each for real, tells you allot about each country. Hands down, the one rifle you would want to carry into for real no bs Combat is the M1. I love the M-14, I carried one for real in the Military (US Navy kept them into the late 80's), I have an M1A but, prefer the M1. The true M-14 (which you can never buy since its a Class 3) is uncontrolable in full auto. M4 or any AR-15/M-16 Family is not realibile and 5.56 is too light. For a no-shi@ Zombie Apocalypse gun it would be a toss up between the M1 and AK-47
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Nice rifles in the OP, and Nice rifles above too. :aok
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They are gunna take some time to hit the Infantry divisions, I havnt got a chance to use or see them in person so I have no clue about them :salute
Oh yes, it will take quite a while to filter down to the infantry. Both SCARs are now in low rate production, but these are designated for SOCOM. Some Special Forces units already were equipped with the H&K 416, but now some Army Brass is demanding that they give them up for M4s (you can't fix stupid, at any command level).
Politics, both in the military and in Washington is the obstacle at this point. A shoot-off between the various rifles could be done within 6 months, but the politics get in the way. I'm not a fan of FN for various reasons. H&K's 416 is little more than an M4 with a revised upper receiver and gas system. Colt's design is very similar to the H&K. Personally, I like the ACR. It was designed by MAGPUL Industries, sold to Bushmaster who has partnered with Remington. It's a wonderful rifle and like the M4, it's US designed and manufactured. Everyone I know who has had a chance to play with the ACR would trade the M4 in for it in a second.
My regards,
Widewing
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Oh yes, it will take quite a while to filter down to the infantry. Both SCARs are now in low rate production, but these are designated for SOCOM. Some Special Forces units already were equipped with the H&K 416, but now some Army Brass is demanding that they give them up for M4s (you can't fix stupid, at any command level).
Politics, both in the military and in Washington is the obstacle at this point. A shoot-off between the various rifles could be done within 6 months, but the politics get in the way. I'm not a fan of FN for various reasons. H&K's 416 is little more than an M4 with a revised upper receiver and gas system. Colt's design is very similar to the H&K. Personally, I like the ACR. It was designed by MAGPUL Industries, sold to Bushmaster who has partnered with Remington. It's a wonderful rifle and like the M4, it's US designed and manufactured. Everyone I know who has had a chance to play with the ACR would trade the M4 in for it in a second.
My regards,
Widewing
Oh lord dont get me started talking about the command in the Army, I may end up in some crap hole duty station, jk I like how they are putting more money towards training this year instead of upgraded weapon systems :salute
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rstel01 Thanks very much for the ammo information. :aok
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Have a Garand, an M1-A, an AR-15(A2), and an M4. Unless I happen to be shooting at someone in the same room :D I'll take the M1-A everytime. Don't get me wrong, I love the Garand, the "DING" the clip makes during ejection is just plain cool (provided you're not actually in a fight). However, IMO the small difference in performance between 30-06 and .308 doesn't warrant the lower capacity. My only annoyance with the M1-A is that the op rod makes a healthy dent in the side of the spent cases during ejection, which along with having to anneal the case necks makes reloading a pain.
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M1 Garand was good for its day but had three serious flaws.
1. You can't top up the clip after you shoot rounds out of it.
2. You must empty the clip of all eight rounds and eject the clip before you can reload.
3. When you fire the last round, the loud "PLING" noise the clip makes announces to the whole world that you're out of ammo!
This is not a video game...
1. While not as easy as removing a magazine and topping it off, you can pull back the operating rod(hold it with the bottom edge of your right hand and grip the weapon with that hand, holding it in place) and insert rounds into the magazine. Not too difficult with a little practice.
2. Umm... Pull back the operating rod and press a button. Out comes the clip and your remaining rounds. Not hard.
3. As stated earlier in this thread, this can be used to your advantage. Either by having friends with full clips loaded or by throwing an empty clip at a rock.
For a no-shi@ Zombie Apocalypse gun it would be a toss up between the M1 and AK-47
Absolutely agree. It would depend on if they're undead (Ak-47 for headshots) or infected (M1 for stopping power). Don't forget the shotgun for close range.
Edit: Concerning the video game comment, I don't blame developers for introducing these flaws. They need to take advantage of everything they can in order to balance it with the inferior Mauser. But unfortunately, they have become common misconceptions about the real thing.
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I really wanna get a Carcano M1891. Anybody have any good ideas where i could possibley find 1? Also when i am in the military will i be allowed to bring it to my duty station? I am assuming it'll have to stay in the Armory unless i check it out.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Carcano_M1891--38_1496.jpg)
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I really wanna get a Carcano M1891. Anybody have any good ideas where i could possibley find 1? Also when i am in the military will i be allowed to bring it to my duty station? I am assuming it'll have to stay in the Armory unless i check it out.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Carcano_M1891--38_1496.jpg)
Good to know, thx for the head's up Lee Harvey. :uhoh
j/k :D
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Good to know, thx for the head's up Lee Harvey. :uhoh
j/k :D
lol, Nah i just wanna get a Italian WW2 rifle, one of my dads friends might get me a great deal on a M1 Carbine. then after that i am gonna look for a Lee Enfield.
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Always funny to read some "expert" opinion on rifles. Some few guys can actually speak from experience, and some can be objective, but way to many (like lazs) will argue like heck that the the rifle they own is the only good one, or the best, and they will argue that point regardless of their lack of real knowledge and experience with the other weapons. Bias due to limited experience or frame of reference is more a display of ignorance than knowledge.
There are some good posts in this thread for sure.
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lol, Nah i just wanna get a Italian WW2 rifle, one of my dads friends might get me a great deal on a M1 Carbine. then after that i am gonna look for a Lee Enfield.
Luckily, I've already got a couple of M1 carbines. What I'd really like to have is a Mauser K98.
EDIT: Actually, what I'd REALLY like to have is one of the two Luger's chambered in .45 ACP for Army evaluation, :x but that's for another thread.
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I got to laugh about the whole "ping" thing also. It has become some sort of anti-Garand urban legend fueled by video games and Hollywood.
People who buy into it, have never really fired a weapon in anger with others in a true Combat situation or, never spoken with members of the "Greatest Generation".
Right off the bat, firing for real in a real situation (again not Call of Duty) is sensory overload. Anything squad size or more of Garands firing in deafening, not even Superman Super hearing could pick up on the ejection sound of the En-Bloc. Within 2 seconds you can have a fresh 8 rounds ready to go. It's actually pretty easy once you practice. By keeping a few En-blocs wedged in the sling, with almost the same motion and the palm of your hand it is very quickly reloaded. It's a heck of allot faster than reloading a Mauser, Enfield, Mosin or Ariska (ie stripper clips). It's about the same time window as changing a mag on any modern Combat Rifle (20-30 round box).
Even the Army itself looked at this "ping" in 42 finding it to be a non-issue in a real Combat enviroment (they played with a few plastic ideas for the En-bloc material).
The only downfall with the En-Bloc was within the M-1D and its tendancy to eject wierd or get stuck due to the scope.
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I got to laugh about the whole "ping" thing also. It has become some sort of anti-Garand urban legend fueled by video games and Hollywood.
People who buy into it, have never really fired a weapon in anger with others in a true Combat situation or, never spoken with members of the "Greatest Generation".
Right off the bat, firing for real in a real situation (again not Call of Duty) is sensory overload. Anything squad size or more of Garands firing in deafening, not even Superman Super hearing could pick up on the ejection sound of the En-Bloc. Within 2 seconds you can have a fresh 8 rounds ready to go. It's actually pretty easy once you practice. By keeping a few En-blocs wedged in the sling, with almost the same motion and the palm of your hand it is very quickly reloaded. It's a heck of allot faster than reloading a Mauser, Enfield, Mosin or Ariska (ie stripper clips). It's about the same time window as changing a mag on any modern Combat Rifle (20-30 round box).
Even the Army itself looked at this "ping" in 42 finding it to be a non-issue in a real Combat enviroment (they played with a few plastic ideas for the En-bloc material).
The only downfall with the En-Bloc was within the M-1D and its tendancy to eject wierd or get stuck due to the scope.
All true, but I notice you made no reference to "Garand thumb". My dad (Korea '51) used to share some rather profane recollections about that. Luckily, I've never done it myself, but it's gotta smart like Hell!
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All true, but I notice you made no reference to "Garand thumb". My dad (Korea '51) used to share some rather profane recollections about that. Luckily, I've never done it myself, but it's gotta smart like Hell!
:aok :lol All true, once it happens you learn and it only happens once.
Here is the sure fire to prevent it and speed load:
The hand not physically putting the En-Bloc in the well allways is on the stock behind the reciever (between thumb and Index with base plate of stock hard against your left calf or on the ground), from that take that thumb (one on the stock) to wrap around the Op-Rod handle. Even though you may be hard on the 2nd latch of the bolt hold open one thumb incident and you'll learn! Once the En-Bloc is in, lift the weapon up back twoards shooting position and remove your thumb from the Op-Rod. With the base of your palm (the hand that loaded the En-Bloc) slam the op road forward. As you continue to lift the weapon, you'll be right back at shooting position. It sounds odd but, your muscle memory learns it quick with a little practice (and one thumb pinch)
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Never had any trouble with "Garand thumb". Neither did Dad, and he carried one in two wars, earning an expert marksman rating several times. He said the "pling" was not a problem either. The used to flip a clip and make the "pling" in calmer moments to see if they could get one or more of the enemy to stick their head up. And I never had trouble with full auto fire on an M-14, but then I learned how to shoot and control recoil, it doesn't hurt that I'm a fairly good sized guy.
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Twenty five years ago I owned a Garand too. I sold it to my brother when I found a brand new match grade M1A to shoot. Why? I was shooting NRA national match competition at the time and liked the magazine better than the clip. Facts is facts. The M1A/M14 is easier to load, easier to reload and holds twelve more rounds than the Garand and that's the reason they went with that design rather than the cumbersome 8 round clip the Garand has. Today I still own and shoot my M1A and M1 Carbine and I like the attention they attract. I didn't get this information from any video game. I've had to decide what was best in real life and made my choice.
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I see a lot of guys talking about the difficulty of loading the Garand like they plan on using it for home defense.
My love of the weapon is based on it's history. As far as home defense it's the last thing I'd reach for in my collection if Harry the Home Invader paid a call. :)
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A Garand is not the least bit difficult to load. It merely requires enough practice to handle it proficiently. If you cannot handle a weapon proficiently, and are not sufficiently dedicated to developing that proficiency, you should remove said weapon from your arsenal.
Were I to find myself in a rifle fight, armed with a Garand, and the necessary loaded clips, I would not feel that I was poorly armed at all.
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A Garand is not the least bit difficult to load. It merely requires enough practice to handle it proficiently. If you cannot handle a weapon proficiently, and are not sufficiently dedicated to developing that proficiency, you should remove said weapon from your arsenal.
Were I to find myself in a rifle fight, armed with a Garand, and the necessary loaded clips, I would not feel that I was poorly armed at all.
Agreed 100%, I was referring to home defense where I don't want to shoot through my house and into my neighbor's.
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Agreed 100%, I was referring to home defense where I don't want to shoot through my house and into my neighbor's.
Sure. Home defense is a job for a good handgun. Home defense should never be confused with CQB, they are not at all the same.
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Politics, both in the military and in Washington is the obstacle at this point. A shoot-off between the various rifles could be done within 6 months, but the politics get in the way. I'm not a fan of FN for various reasons. H&K's 416 is little more than an M4 with a revised upper receiver and gas system. Colt's design is very similar to the H&K. Personally, I like the ACR. It was designed by MAGPUL Industries, sold to Bushmaster who has partnered with Remington. It's a wonderful rifle and like the M4, it's US designed and manufactured. Everyone I know who has had a chance to play with the ACR would trade the M4 in for it in a second.
My regards,
Widewing
Have you got your hands on the ACR yet? Better yet, when can I?
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I'm all for it Slash. :aok In fact we live so close to each other it's a shame we haven't at least met for a beer after all these years.
That's all on me. I just have to get off my ass!!!
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Sure. Home defense is a job for a good handgun. Home defense should never be confused with CQB, they are not at all the same.
I've never been a decent shot with a handgun. I'd still probably take out a neighbor. I know my limitations so I have a shotgun for home defense. ;)
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Sure. Home defense is a job for a good handgun. Home defense should never be confused with CQB, they are not at all the same.
+1.
Also, having seen the ACR/Hk416/7, etc etc etc in the field, I'd still take an Sa58 FAL or a Socom M14 ish type of rifle if having to choose a .308 short barrel weapon.
Also Shifty, you can easily take out a neighbor with a shoulder supported weapon as well. Buck and slug rounds can penetrate through structures and barriers at LEAST as well as pistol rounds. If you feel more confident with a shotgun in terms of accuracy that's good, but be sure you have a white light on it somewhere, as employing a tactical flashlight (a must in home defense situations) is very difficult with anything other than a handgun.
Here is my personal favorite historical/ish .308 rifle. Spanish Fr8. It has a very short barrel, HK style muzzle break, great little mauser action, and can be found for 150$ or less with as new bore here in Canada.
(http://www.kcbelcher.com/pb/wp_7db9fc98/images/img305147c3b569c0c4f.jpg)
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Have you got your hands on the ACR yet? Better yet, when can I?
Yes, but didn't get to shoot it that afternoon. We were limited to fitting it for a shot counter in the grip. Semi-auto version should be available commercially very soon.
My regards,
Widewing
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Never had any trouble with "Garand thumb". Neither did Dad, and he carried one in two wars, earning an expert marksman rating several times.
A coworker occasionally shoots his Garand in Garand competitions at the American Legion range where he belongs, and he was telling me how many times he has heard guys yell and cuss about getting their thumb whacked. He told me many times it is a vet who carried the weapon in the service. I imagine with practice you can learn to minimize or avoid this.
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Sure. Home defense is a job for a good handgun. Home defense should never be confused with CQB, they are not at all the same.
You've obviously never seen my wife when she's really pissed. We're talking a big-bore H&H loaded with Barnes solids. And even then you better be backing up. :D
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The best source of Garand Ammo is the CMP (Civilan Marksmanship Program)
+1.
Also where I purchased my M-1 Carbine. IBM. Great condition and, without a doubt, the most fun rifle I've ever shot.
I wouldnt want to take it into combat... but for the range, MAN is it fun. :D
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+1.
Also where I purchased my M-1 Carbine. IBM. Great condition and, without a doubt, the most fun rifle I've ever shot.
I wouldnt want to take it into combat... but for the range, MAN is it fun. :D
I was looking at that site, what grade did u get?
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I see a lot of guys talking about the difficulty of loading the Garand like they plan on using it for home defense.
My love of the weapon is based on it's history. As far as home defense it's the last thing I'd reach for in my collection if Harry the Home Invader paid a call. :)
+1 on this also. Not really the choice weapon at zero-dark thirty when you are half groggy and some Crack-Head might be downstairs. It's at battle rifle really for +100 yards. For home defense the ones I keep out ready to go:
MP5 Pistol Version and 40 Taurus (My wifes side of the bed what she has at reach)
1911 and Ithaca 37 (my side of the bed for what is in reach)
Also keep an M-4 and "grab & go" 120 round bandoler of SS-109 Zombie Killer's out and that gun is also real close. Have a few .38's and other light pistols hidden around in various rooms also. Otherwise, everything else is in the Armory.
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Yes, but didn't get to shoot it that afternoon. We were limited to fitting it for a shot counter in the grip. Semi-auto version should be available commercially very soon.
My regards,
Widewing
SCAR type price or less?
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SCAR type price or less?
I would expect a price between $1,300 and $1,500.
My regards,
Widewing
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I expect a happy Slash27 :D