Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: 100Coogn on January 18, 2010, 06:40:32 PM
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I've been away from the game for a while, but have noticed this. In AH there's a big issue when colliding and one person getting knocked out of the sky, while the other player flies away without damage. Many people offer their reasons for this as, lag/internet connectivy and all.
My question is, why doesn't this happen in other games. I've been playing a few games here and there, and the impact is damn near instantaneous. ie, you hit me, so you have effected my route of travel or destroyed me. It just seems like the impact should be a little more balanced.
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If HTC got a dime for everytime ......
what's the point, never mind..
:lol
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:lol I know, just thinking is all.
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:lol I know, just thinking is all.
It's been brought up serveral times before, I would go back and read the old threads. HTC explains why, and it's not going to change..
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Just out of curiousity what other games are you refering to? My only basis of comparison between games is between old AW and of course AH. Ive never played IL2 but would be interested to know how collisions break down there vs here.
That being said there is a ton of factors involved and judging from your post you have a good understanding of netlag and whatnot. There has been a ton of threads discussing this topic to great detail. Do I think the AH collision model is perfect? Nah. But I believe HTC has a good balance/system in place.
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I have a pretty good track record on the "search", but I'm not going to re-read things from 3 years ago that involves this game now. That's kinda' pointless.
As far as the games go, I'm just basing it off of some simple things like Need For Speed Shift/GT-Legends/rFactor, etc.
My question is this. Why can't two people be in the same point and time. (give or take)
I've already heard all the 3-dimensional stuff.
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I've been away from the game for a while, but have noticed this. In AH there's a big issue when colliding and one person getting knocked out of the sky, while the other player flies away without damage. Many people offer their reasons for this as, lag/internet connectivy and all.
It appears you have not spoken to anybody with a clue on how the collisions models work.
I have a pretty good track record on the "search", but I'm not going to re-read things from 3 years ago that involves this game now. That's kinda' pointless.
As far as the games go, I'm just basing it off of some simple things like Need For Speed Shift/GT-Legends/rFactor, etc.
My question is this. Why can't two people be in the same point and time. (give or take)
I've already heard all the 3-dimensional stuff.
Because they are not both in the same place at the same time. No juxtaposition involved.
In a 1 on 1 fight there are 4 planes.
2 on your Front End.
2 on your opponents Front End.
All you have to worry about are the two on your FE.
If the two on your FE touch you will collide.
If they do not then you won't.
Just because the 2 on your FE touch doesn't mean the 2 on your opponents FE touch.
Fight someone 1 on 1 and both film it.
Watch both films.
They are slightly different.
What you see on your FE as a collision your opponent can see as a near miss or vs. versa.
For example.
What you see.
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/lag/bronkview.jpg)
What your opponent sees
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/lag/tangleview.jpg)
Those are two pictures of the same two planes at the same point in time from both Front Ends.
(edit: the pics are not mine and all credit goes to the OP for them)
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As far as the games go, I'm just basing it off of some simple things like Need For Speed Shift/GT-Legends/rFactor, etc.
My question is this. Why can't two people be in the same point and time. (give or take)
I've already heard all the 3-dimensional stuff.
That's your problem, you're comparing the collision model of an online game with collision models in a single player game.
ack-ack
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It appears you have not spoken to anybody with a clue on how the collisions models work.
Because they are not both in the same place at the same time. No juxtaposition involved.
In a 1 on 1 fight there are 4 planes.
2 on your Front End.
2 on your opponents Front End.
All you have to worry about are the two on your FE.
If the two on your FE touch you will collide.
If they do not then you won't.
Just because the 2 on your FE touch doesn't mean the 2 on your opponents FE touch.
Fight someone 1 on 1 and both film it.
Watch both films.
They are slightly different.
What you see on your FE as a collision your opponent can see as a near miss or vs. versa.
I'm sure someone else has a better answer for this question. Your's made no sense. It was a simple question. Why can't this game not detect a collision properly.
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I'm sure someone else has a better answer for this question. Your's made no sense. It was a simple question. Why can't this game not detect a collision properly.
Makes total sense.
I can't help that you don't "get it".
I would like to add that "lag" won't cause a collisions or have anything to do with if you collide or not.
It has EVERYTHING to do with whether your opponent does.
Here is the bottom line.
Don't touch the nme planes with your plane.
You won't have to worry about collisions ever again.
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I'm sure someone else has a better answer for this question. Your's made no sense. It was a simple question.
There is no better answer, and no, it's not a simple question.
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See Rule #4
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'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.'
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'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.'
:aok
So anyone going to answer the question?
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Sorry to have caught you guys at the end of the month, but that don't answer the question. Just bury it and brown nose HT some more. LMAO
I will try ONE last time here.
In Aces High a collision is handled on your computer which we will call your Front End.
If at any time your Front End detect that your plane touched an opponents plane you will collide.
That is how it works.
Period.
Now... because of lag what your see and what your opponent sees is slightly different. That small delay means that your Front Ends see slightly different things. (hence the 4 plane analogy)
Due to that slight delay what appears to be a collision on your Front End is a near miss on your opponents. (refer to the pictures a few posts up)
What that MEANS is that just because you hit them doesn't mean they hit you.
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not trying to knock you or anything but it does seem a bit odd that you are comparing AH collision on a racing game.
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:aok
So anyone going to answer the question?
Lute already answered the question perfectly clearly.
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not trying to knock you or anything but it does seem a bit odd that you are comparing AH collision on a racing game.
This is exactly why I am comparing it. It's the same internet connection, so why are the results so varied?
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This is exactly why I am comparing it. It's the same internet connection, so why are the results so varied?
Well, a race car moves, at best, half as fast as a WWII fighter, on what is effectively a 2D plane. For starters...
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Try reading the link slowly and preferably with a dictionary close by.
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/lag/lag.htm
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Try reading the link slowly and preferably with a dictionary close by.
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/lag/lag.htm
I will try that, ty.
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Warbirds is pretty much the same as AH as far as collisions go. The bubble seems a little larger in WBs IMHO.
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that's cool, everyone wants to act like it ain't a problem. That probably why it's such a good search term.
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that's cool, everyone wants to act like it ain't a problem. That probably why it's such a good search term.
No one acts like it's not a problem... it's just a problem with no solution. And HTC's got a pretty decent band aid.
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See Rule #4
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The OP's been answered on 3 separate occasions...
If you want a completely simple answer that really doesn't leave you with any understanding... if you hit someone, you take damage. If someone hit's you, they take damage. Period.
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Warbirds is pretty much the same as AH as far as collisions go. The bubble seems a little larger in WBs IMHO.
AH has no "bubble" don't hit anything on your front end... no collision.
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Here's a simple question. Just answer the OP, save the drama.
Coog
I knew the link was too complicated.
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Here's a simple question. Just answer the OP, save the drama.
Coog
JUST READ WMLUTES ANSWERS AND ALL IS REVEALED! IN THIS THREAD NO LESS!
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You're in your car driving at 50mph.
You look at your rear-view mirror and see a truck coming at you VERY fast and he's VERY close.
Truck driver haulin' at 100mph. He sees your car. He wants to play bumparse with you rinkydinky prius.
You turn your head around to look back. Indeed, there is a big #$@ truck back there and getting mighty close.
You turn your attention to the road ahead. WHATS THIS? OH NOES AN OLD LADY IN A WALKER IS CROSSING THE INTERSTATE! SHE'S ON YOUR LANE!!! YOU WILL SQUASH HER IN 4 SECONDS!!!
You swerve to the opposite lane to avoid the lady. She curses at you as your prius clips her purse off her and screech to a halt on the parking lane.
Old lady turns her head and sees the incoming truck.
Truck driver sees your prius suddenly swerve out of the lane. Hears a 'thunk' sound.
Old lady gets squished by Truck.
Sysmessages:
(Prius)
Host: You have Landed.
(Truckdriver)
Host: You shot down Oldlady.
(Oldlady)
Host: You have collided with Truckdriver.
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Its all about perspective on your end.
You in the prius saw the old lady and she saw you so you managed to swerve out of the way and in her view, saw you swerve out in time. Hence on your end (front end) and in hers, you did not hit.
Truckdriver did NOT see oldlady and ran her over and kept chuggin' after you. On his front end oldlady was not registered as a collision yet gets credit for kill because you caused it on her end.
Oldlady saw your prius coming at her and then swerve out of the way hence no collision for your prius and her. However she did turn around and see the truck coming so she became a grill ornament.
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haha.. that was awesome tac! that made my evening. :)
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that's cool, everyone wants to act like it ain't a problem. That probably why it's such a good search term.
The only problem is you not understanding how the collision model works in AH, Lute's previous post was an excellent example of explaining how it works. There isn't anything wrong with the collision model, it works just fine in AH. Don't fly into another plane and you won't collide, it's really that simple.
ack-ack
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:lol I know, just thinking is all.
i try not to think. the more i think, the worse i seem to hurt myself. :noid :noid :bolt:
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I have a pretty good track record on the "search", but I'm not going to re-read things from 3 years ago that involves this game now. That's kinda' pointless.
As far as the games go, I'm just basing it off of some simple things like Need For Speed Shift/GT-Legends/rFactor, etc.
My question is this. Why can't two people be in the same point and time. (give or take)
I've already heard all the 3-dimensional stuff.
you're comparing apples and oranges.
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I heard the one with the Higher IQ gets less damage :D
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I heard the one with the Higher IQ gets less damage :D
hhmm....could that be why i never suffer damage from collisions? :D :aok :bolt:
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I heard the one with the Higher IQ gets less damage :D
:headscratch: I guess that leaves me out...
If our planes can't hit each other accurately, then how are the bullet's supposed to?
(not concerned about mine, because I don't aim too well)
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You're in your car driving at 50mph.
You look at your rear-view mirror and see a truck coming at you VERY fast and he's VERY close.
Truck driver haulin' at 100mph. He sees your car. He wants to play bumparse with you rinkydinky prius.
You turn your head around to look back. Indeed, there is a big #$@ truck back there and getting mighty close.
You turn your attention to the road ahead. WHATS THIS? OH NOES AN OLD LADY IN A WALKER IS CROSSING THE INTERSTATE! SHE'S ON YOUR LANE!!! YOU WILL SQUASH HER IN 4 SECONDS!!!
You swerve to the opposite lane to avoid the lady. She curses at you as your prius clips her purse off her and screech to a halt on the parking lane.
Old lady turns her head and sees the incoming truck.
Truck driver sees your prius suddenly swerve out of the lane. Hears a 'thunk' sound.
Old lady gets squished by Truck.
Sysmessages:
(Prius)
Host: You have Landed.
(Truckdriver)
Host: You shot down Oldlady.
(Oldlady)
Host: You have collided with Truckdriver.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its all about perspective on your end.
You in the prius saw the old lady and she saw you so you managed to swerve out of the way and in her view, saw you swerve out in time. Hence on your end (front end) and in hers, you did not hit.
Truckdriver did NOT see oldlady and ran her over and kept chuggin' after you. On his front end oldlady was not registered as a collision yet gets credit for kill because you caused it on her end.
Oldlady saw your prius coming at her and then swerve out of the way hence no collision for your prius and her. However she did turn around and see the truck coming so she became a grill ornament.
LoL. :rofl :rofl
If he doesnt get it then, then theres no hope.
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See Rule #4
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If our planes can't hit each other accurately, then how are the bullet's supposed to?
By the very same principle, just inverted.
You have to hit the enemy on your computer. If you do, the enemy will get informed that he's been hit, and where. They don't necessarily have to hit on his screen - they game would be almost unplayable to many, if not most players if that would be a requirement.
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:headscratch: I guess that leaves me out...
If our planes can't hit each other accurately, then how are the bullet's supposed to?
(not concerned about mine, because I don't aim too well)
aaahh!!!
you just answere your own question!!
what you hit on your screen is very accurate. you hit em with your rounds, or you hit em with your airplane....whatcha see is whatcha get.
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See Rule #4
Right about what? :headscratch:
The internet is a complex series of tubes and is very hard to explain fully. :D
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Right about what? :headscratch:
The internet is a complex series of tubes and is very hard to explain fully. :D
So explain it. As you see in my OP, I'm only asking why making contact is such an issue in this game. I've played many games with a ping well over 200, but be sure, every one knew when a collision has taken place and effects both vehicles.
Blame it on lag and all, if you choose to do so, without explanation. but I've heard the wind blow before. I've not made this post without research, but I might as well have.
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It's an issue because you don't try to shoot the other car! Let me explain:
In the racing sims I tried online, they extrapolate the positions of the other cars. So if you take the two pictures above in mind, the first picture is the locations recieved from the other player, but along with the latency (X). Your computer "knows" this is dated data, so it makes an assumption about where the other guy would be at T+x and draws this on your screen. (further ahead)
Same for the other guy. His computer "secretly" sees you much farther back (2nd pic), but again extrapolates your position on his screen and draws you where you will be in x millisecs, (closer)
So simple. Two cars going side by side. If both players sat next to each other and could see what the other guy see it would seem like there were no lag at all!
Now, why doesn't AH use this method you ask (or "why is this an issue?"). The reason is warping. As long as you go straight this method works great, once you start turning, especially at high speed, the extrapolations are suddenly off. To compensate for this your computer have to make the other player "jump" to where it's new guess is or warp.
If instead your computer draws exactly the position it receives, there is no guessing, and the only warping will be if one of the connections are unstable with very variable latency. Having small microwarps might not seem so high a price to pay, but when you try to shoot that other plane, instead of just overtaking him, it would be a real turn off.
Also, when looking at cars, it's a general rule that the faster they go, the slower they turn. Real sharp turns in racing games are often done at slow speeds, where the risk of mis-extrapolating is low. Planes on the other hand, tend to turn better the faster they go (to some extent), increasing the risk of warping.
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So explain it. As you see in my OP, I'm only asking why making contact is such an issue in this game. I've played many games with a ping well over 200, but be sure, every one knew when a collision has taken place and effects both vehicles.
Blame it on lag and all, if you choose to do so, without explanation. but I've heard the wind blow before. I've not made this post without research, but I might as well have.
How many of those games had 600 people online?
There are two methodologies, the one HTC uses which is collision and kills rendered/calculated by your front end (ie AH on your computer), the other is letting the server handle it (common in first person shooter games). The second one has limitations in that servers cannot handle too many clients, so this usually limits the number of players to 64 or less.
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So explain it. As you see in my OP, I'm only asking why making contact is such an issue in this game. I've played many games with a ping well over 200, but be sure, every one knew when a collision has taken place and effects both vehicles.
Blame it on lag and all, if you choose to do so, without explanation. but I've heard the wind blow before. I've not made this post without research, but I might as well have.
Two planes flying at each other at 300mph each. The time it take to pass through each other is around 50ms. This is less than the ping time of most players and small deviation from the predicted flight path (the game extrapolate till the next network update) can easily produce deviations as large as the size of the plane. Add on top of that that the ping time is an average and fluctuates and you may also loose packets and have to wait for the next one to update the game world. Your machine will show a collision while the other player machine, that is still predicting your position from extrapolation, will not. It may also work the other way around by pure chance.
It is basically down to the discrepancy between the passing-though time scale and the network update time scale. Same internet, but slower moving (or larger) object will have less problems.
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WMLute covered it accurately. Vulcan explained why things have to work the way they do.
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coogn, going back to lute's post.
you seem to be asking that the person from pic #2 (opponents front end) also take damage when he avoided the collision. that hardly seems fair.
in has been explained several times why the two "front ends" are different and now maybe you will have an understanding as to why HTC chooses to have the result different as well.
i for one would be pi$$ed if i fell to earth in a collision that did not happen on my computer or that i never saw.
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It's an issue because you don't try to shoot the other car! Let me explain:
In the racing sims I tried online, they extrapolate the positions of the other cars. So if you take the two pictures above in mind, the first picture is the locations recieved from the other player, but along with the latency (X). Your computer "knows" this is dated data, so it makes an assumption about where the other guy would be at T+x and draws this on your screen. (further ahead)
Same for the other guy. His computer "secretly" sees you much farther back (2nd pic), but again extrapolates your position on his screen and draws you where you will be in x millisecs, (closer)
So simple. Two cars going side by side. If both players sat next to each other and could see what the other guy see it would seem like there were no lag at all!
Now, why doesn't AH use this method you ask (or "why is this an issue?"). The reason is warping. As long as you go straight this method works great, once you start turning, especially at high speed, the extrapolations are suddenly off. To compensate for this your computer have to make the other player "jump" to where it's new guess is or warp.
If instead your computer draws exactly the position it receives, there is no guessing, and the only warping will be if one of the connections are unstable with very variable latency. Having small microwarps might not seem so high a price to pay, but when you try to shoot that other plane, instead of just overtaking him, it would be a real turn off.
Also, when looking at cars, it's a general rule that the faster they go, the slower they turn. Real sharp turns in racing games are often done at slow speeds, where the risk of mis-extrapolating is low. Planes on the other hand, tend to turn better the faster they go (to some extent), increasing the risk of warping.
Well said! The term is 'lag compensation' and as Vulcan point out, it is very common in first person shooters (also, online racing games). The speeds achieved in this game as well as the sheer number of players makes lag compensation not an option. The way HTC has chosen to model collisions is the only way that is fair for both sides.
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:salute
1. i think that if HT can use a right 'mean time buffer' then no lag problem more. :pray
2. cause lag i wish do not see 'u collided' and xxx shot u dwn! :mad: :mad: :mad:
:salute
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HT
What are the average connection speeds? or do you know?
I would like to know which is better in game 42 or 320 ping times? Which is closer to the average?
I always assumed having a great connection was the way to go and it is on the net, but that might not be the case in your game? Maybe having a bit slower connect is better? or closer to the game's average?
So what are the players average connect ping times?
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I seriously doubt HTC would share average ping time info. Connection stability is more important than ping times. Much better to have a stable ping with very little variation opposed to a connection with the larger throughput.
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I seriously doubt HTC would share average ping time info. Connection stability is more important than ping times. Much better to have a stable ping with very little variation opposed to a connection with the larger throughput.
Why not? Its just an average. Im not asking for X's ping time. I would like to have the average connection speed. What is it? What ping time would make it more fair for me?
My connect is plenty stable. I can adjust my speed with my wallet ... maybe I will save some money!
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You can adjust the last mile with your wallet, but you have no control over the speed and bandwidth utilization of the rest of the Internet. Just like us. The game servers have access to two OC-48 pipes (that's 4,320Mb/s of aggregate throughput in both directions). It does not stop the Internet from being a huge problem from time to time. It also means the 'last mile' (i.e. your immediate connection) is pretty much worthless in the overall scheme of things.
Connection speed is pretty much irrelevant. As long as the speed is above 28.8Kbps (modem) then it is fine. Ping times under 300ms are fine. Latencies and variations are the killers.
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You can adjust the last mile with your wallet, but you have no control over the speed and bandwidth utilization of the rest of the Internet. Just like us. The game servers have access to two OC-48 pipes (that's 4,320Mb/s of aggregate throughput in both directions). It does not stop the Internet from being a huge problem from time to time. It also means the 'last mile' (i.e. your immediate connection) is pretty much worthless in the overall scheme of things.
Connection speed is pretty much irrelevant. As long as the speed is above 28.8Kbps (modem) then it is fine. Ping times under 300ms are fine. Latencies and variations are the killers.
I'm sure the computers used have alot to do with it as well.
Some 1 pointed on Hammers page, I just want to have the smallest lag tail possible.
Sounds a little complicated to me I would just like to have the average connection ping time that every one else has. What is it?
Btw to slow down my connect I save money that helps my wallet I wont need to speed it up and maybe my latencies and variations will become closer to the normal average ...which are?
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As fuzeman and skuzzy have said. Its not really an issue of high ping, but of latency/ packet loss.
While im just speculating here, I would guess the average ping for broadband users would be from 40-60 ive heard of broadband users across the pond usually get somewhere in the ballpark of the 80s. Again its highly possible im wrong im just taking a few guesses.
By the way, skuzzy sure is smart for an old timer. :) To be honest I dont have a clue as to what half he said haha. Out of curiousity though skuzzy, are those figures spot on or rough estimates? How do you come about them?
Is this something you guys speculate with your traffic with a little math, or is it some sort of insider information from the back bones of the web?
Also, out of curiousity. If I were to walk into one of these back bones of the net, what would it look like? A room full of servers with all kinds of wires etc?
One last thing I was curious about, and I dont mean to hijack so if this is something I should make another thread about let me know. But I remember you talking about how you coined your handle, and as I recall it was in college when you built your own SCSCI (thats probably spelled wrong) drive. Is that correct?
I would never in a million years be able to do something like that so my hat is off to ya. How much time/labor went into that? Thanks in advance.
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There is no such thing as an average connection speed. As I said before. The connection concerns the entire path from your computer to the server. You have no control of anything passed your initial connection to your ISP. From our perspective, your immediate connection is moot.
Yes, it is complicated. There is no simple answer that would make any sense. Even my attempts to keep it simple are leaving a lot of information out. If you think what I am saying is complicated, you really do not want to know the entire story.
You want the least variation in overall connect speed to the server as possible. Unfortunately, you are not really in control of that. There is no such thing as average latency or variance. You can have a 20Mb/s connection but have horrible latencies, which make the game unplayable. You can have a 20Mb/s connection, but varying so bad in actual speed it is unplayable.
Does that twist your noggin enough? :)
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Think of it this way:
You are on a godly 20mbit /s cable connection. You pay 100 buck a month for it. YOU DA MAN.
When you play AH the path and speeds between your computer and HT's server look like this:
Yourhome: 20mbit/s--->yourISP:20mbit/s-->serverinVirginia: 2mbit/s -->server in Alabama: 800k/s ---> server in Texas: 10mbit /s---> AH server: 4gig/s
So yes, your connection speed is good but between you and HT's server that server in alabama porks your connection down to 800k / s ... so it doesnt matter if the texas server is 10mbit or AH's server is 4gigs /s your ultimate final, fastest connection possible to HTC is 800k /s
You downgrade you connection speed to 5 mbit /s and pay just 40 bucks a month and your connection to HTC will be identical as with the 20 mbit/s connection.
Thing with the connection is the above is never set in stone. at each 'hop' the connection speed can go up or down every microsecond.
Normally in any online game a connection of under 500ms is fine..ideally it'd be under 200ms.
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You downgrade you connection speed to 5 mbit /s and pay just 40 bucks a month and your connection to HTC will be identical as with the 20 mbit/s connection.
But you cannot download as much pr0n as before.