Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: daddog on February 17, 2010, 07:20:01 PM
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Gents,
On the next off night for FSO, February 26th, I am going to host a possible new event for Aces High. This idea was something Baumer came up with that might have a strong appeal to some players. My plan is to host this in the Special Events Arena II (SEA II) at 11 PM Eastern. It is the same time as the usual FSO's but will only last an hour or so. Walk on players are welcome or if you want to bring your whole squad that is fine too. If someone wants to organize a side for missions they are welcome to, but it is not required. If we run this, it will only be once a month and on the off night of FSO.
Here is the brief/general description.
OBJECTIVE: There are 2 main objectives of the Combat Challenge event.
1.) To create an air combat event that requires the maximum skills from the participants, using historically possible aircraft. Instead of catering to the lowest common denominator this event would be focused at the “experienced” AH participant looking for a new challenge.
2.) This event could also serve as a testing ground for CM’s to test and tweak new arena settings and judge how effective they are at creating new arena configurations.
DESCRIPTION: This will be a multiple life event (open to everyone) to normally run 1 hour. The designs will incorporate a small plane set (2 to 4 aircraft per side) and each side will have a couple objectives ( maybe 1 Attack and 1 Defense). This event will not be scored, but logs will be posted. The primary objective to enjoy the combat and survive. The participants will generally be split 50/50 but that will depend on the plane set. Side CO’s could be selected or may volunteer just like a snapshot in order to organize each side.
BASIC SETTINGS: The intent is to use all available setting to create the most challenging air combat environment. Examples of some potential settings are:
• Friendly Collisions- May be on
• Friendly Icon Range-Will vary
• Enemy Icon Range-Off
• Enemy Low Icon Range-Will vary
• Radar Altitude-Will vary
• Stall limiter-Forced OFF
• Bomb Sight-Manual Calibration
• Ground Auto Ack-2.0
• Tower only Radar-On
Again this will not be a single life event, but we may use the death limiter tool. For example you may only be allowed 2 deaths and after that you would not be able to reup. It will be posted in the MOTD.
This may appeal to some, others may rather just go fly in the MA. I will post more about it next week. If you do fly check the MOTD for the active fields and simple objectives.
That is about it for now. Just wanted to give you guys a heads up and something to look forward to. The first design will be 1942 across the channel. I will post other details later, but below is the plane set I plan to use.
Allied:
Spit V
Hurr IIC
Boston Mk III
Lancaster
Axis:
Me-109E
Me-109F
Bf110C
Ju-88
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:x :x :x
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Dude I hope my internet comes by then :O
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Daddog.
AKKuya and myself have been discussing the Off Night FSO Jeep Races we have planned in the past and have came to a conclusion that there was not enough intrest to continue our events. We have been severely limited by the terrains available to have some challenging races. Also we did not have any desire to encroach upon Shegotya and Marshall on her HMS events by having a lot of killing in our races.
In your post above we will gracefully let our Jeep Races die out and you more then welcome to use SEA I for your new event.
Good Luck.
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Dude I hope my internet comes by then :O
keep rubbin it. :bolt:
sounds cool Daddog, will try it out
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Yea that looks like alot of fun :O
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I'll say it again... Nothing about "icons off" is in any way pretending to be "realistic"
There, I said it.
Hope you all enjoy it, I just couldn't let that bit slide without comment. :aok
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Agreed, having to "eyeball" your foe, would enhance the gameplay i think. Not knowing, being half the battle that the real pilots had to deal with.
But it does sound great......
:aok
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No, the fact that you'd be considered legally blind by a long shot if all you could see was what AH put on a pixelated LCD screen, means you'd NEVER see combat in this condition, and nobody else would have either. They'd have been laughed out of flight school and given a desk job with 2-inch-thick glasses. The human eyeball is a lot LOT better than anything this game (or any other) can replicate.
Icons do not create false realism, they make up for a LACK of realism that technology cannot replicate: the human eyeball.
So perfect, the same model's been in produciton for tens of thousands of years! :D
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Krusty,
The Icons off settings are not intended to give realism. This is a game, its intended to give a more challenging enviroment. Its intended to make for merges where you dont know if the guys is friendly or enemy, so you have to get a good look at the plane. This will promote good team/wingman tactics, as well as SA.
I for one, think this will be a fun event and will attend if I am able. We as CMs can not make any of this realistic. We just try to use period planes that actually saw combat against each other, and use settings available to us to make that a challenging and enjoyable event. If you do not like the idea of Icons being off, then by all means stay in the MA while this is run.
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Gaidin,
The problem Krusty is pointing out is that it's not going to be POSSIBLE to make out the plane shapes in anything approaching a reasonable range (to say nothing of realistic) for anyone not playing on a 60" big screen. You often can't even tell the difference in the skins until you're well under 600-800 yards. The other guy is in firing range before it's even POSSIBLE to make out what he is.
Krusty has a VERY valid playability concern.
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Not to long ago we did a scenario with the enemy icon range off, it turned out extremely fun and alot more realistic it was fun to drag a single fighter off for a 1v1 without a horde jumping in, and teaches you great SA, theres ways to use your views, and zoom to see the planes futher out, if you have been flying this game at all plane reconition is something you should be learning along time ago, you cant always rely on the Dar or Icon range to know whats ahead, I don't think they had Icons in 1942 :headscratch: either way its going to be fun.
Edit... in the MA's i see the plane before the icon anyway, im just always looking around.
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Last night in snapshot, icons were 1000. I knew way before we came close to engaging that they were 109s.
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Gaidin,
The problem Krusty is pointing out is that it's not going to be POSSIBLE to make out the plane shapes in anything approaching a reasonable range (to say nothing of realistic) for anyone not playing on a 60" big screen. You often can't even tell the difference in the skins until you're well under 600-800 yards. The other guy is in firing range before it's even POSSIBLE to make out what he is.
Krusty has a VERY valid playability concern.
I don't think it will be a playability concern. It will probably cut out the HeadOn shots, but as Zoom mentioned, if you have been playing awhile you should definitely be able to distinguish plane type by visual recognition as they get closer. The German/Jap/Russ/US/Italian planes all have distinct shapes at about 1k. Even on my 19" CRT monitor. Will it be easy for everyone to do this, maybe not, but that is where the more challenging environment that I talked about comes in. I am looking forward to it.
And just so there is no confusion, I am not trying to bash Krusty. I am simply trying to point out that this is not a way to create false realism, it is about a challenging environment that will make you think/react differently that you otherwise would.
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How about ditching the Lancaster and inserting the Mosquito or B-25C?
I'm guessing objectives will be emailed through FSO Mailer?
I will be there!
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No, I will just put them in the MOTD Nef. Since it is not an FSO event and no telling how many would show up I don't want to use it.
Krusty I understand you don't like it. I also hope you understand that others will. Please don't turn this thread into an 'icon' debate and beat the dead horse.
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How does "Friendly Collisions" work? After airborne? I can see a runway that looks like a demolition derby. :lol
And the squad CO NOT suggesting to tighten it up but to back off. I also flew a snapshot with enemy icons off and really
enjoyed it. I found myself looking much closer at the plane to try and judge the distance before pulling the trigger.
Looking forward to this. :aok
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Friendly collisions would be a real trick to have on. It starts the moment you spawn on the runway Kansas. Someone would have to act as a ground control operator. With friendly collisions on you can't take off/spawn in the same spot. You just crash. Also any friendly AC in the air can collide with each other.
We might try it sometime, but for this first one it will just be the usual enemy collisions on. :)
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keep rubbin it. :bolt:
sounds cool Daddog, will try it out
:rofl .......the barracks internet isnt even fast enough for that
:bolt:
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:O I can not wait for this...with a great planeset too :aok
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I am simply trying to point out that this is not a way to create false realism, it is about a challenging environment that will make you think/react differently that you otherwise would.
There's a long history of folks saying "no icons" is a challenge because it's harder. So why not fly at night with no ambient moonlight, no fog settings?
It's also quite challenging to fight with fuel burn set to 5.0
There's a lot of things ate make it a "challenging environment" but the one folks keep focusing on is only the they want because they think it's more realistic.
Not jumping on Gaidin. Just saying that comment isn't totally accurate. I do hope folks enjoy it. I'm not beating a dead horse. Matter of fact the only folks that call it a dead horse disagree with it.
EDIT: How about a series of these types of mini-events? Just choose another arbitrary point and make it challenging in different ways every time. For example, no icons one time, fuel burn 5x the next, night time with no ambient night the next, 25mph down draft the next, either highly reduced or increased weapons lethality the next, etc? No need to pretend it's "realistic" -- it's just challenging. Just a thought.
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EDIT: How about a series of these types of mini-events? Just choose another arbitrary point and make it challenging in different ways every time. For example, no icons one time, fuel burn 5x the next, night time with no ambient night the next, 25mph down draft the next, either highly reduced or increased weapons lethality the next, etc? No need to pretend it's "realistic" -- it's just challenging. Just a thought.
Those that might enjoy the 'no icons' might feel it is more realistic. Lets face it, the whole thing is 'pretend'. Maybe they want to 'pretend' it is more realistic. ;)
I do hope folks enjoy it.
Thank you. :) I hope they do to.
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Freindly Collisions would be more realistic, active over like 500 or 1000 ft, this would allow for take offs and landings. Might turn icon range on at around 1 or 1.5k sounds like a great time, you can usually tell were your freindlies are using vox and range, we have played some scenerios with icon ranges set to 1k and no icons below 1000ft, was really challenging and everyone had fun. lets give it a try and see how it goes. Sure there will be plenty of things to talk over afterwards. :aok
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Those that might enjoy the 'no icons' might feel it is more realistic. Lets face it, the whole thing is 'pretend'. Maybe they want to 'pretend' it is more realistic. ;)
Alt-I toggles your icons off. Pretend away!
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I hear what Krusty's sayin and it makes a lot of sense. They haven't improved on the MkI Human Eyeball as it does work best. Heck they haven't even gotten camera sensors to come close yet! Monitors don't cut it either. But we could give it a shot in the game and one of two things will happen. It'll suck or it won't. If it sucks then we prolly won't do it again.
Drano<who has found things in life that he thought might suck but didn't by trying them and vice versa>
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Alt-I toggles your icons off. Pretend away!
Great idea! We can do that too in case the icons off does not work. :)
sounds cool Daddog, will try it out
Yea that looks like alot of fun
But it does sound great......
either way its going to be fun.
Looking forward to this.
I can not wait for this...with a great planeset too
I do hope folks enjoy it.
we have played some scenerios with icon ranges set to 1k and no icons below 1000ft, was really challenging and everyone had fun.
But we could give it a shot in the game…
Thanks gents. I think for many it will be a lot of fun. :cheers:
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Sounds good to me, Daddog. Thanks! :salute
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Did an NOE Stuka mission in FSO and filmed it. Due to game and PC limitations we did not see all of the enemy that could have busted us. In the film there were also several that IF they had just tipped a wing over they would have seen us for sure. Was quite an enjoyable nail biter. This sound like it could be fun.
Think it comes down to SA. Those that have it in spades should prevail. And that is no different icons on or off.
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Geez all this poop about icons off...sorry Krusty but I don't see the validity. At just 15000 feet, a 40 foot long object has no definitive shape, especially if it's coming at you, no matter how good your eyes are. My 22 inch monitor allows me to see fairly close what I would see in real life if I were looking out through a thick pane of glass with the sun shining on it and a slight haze from humidity.
If you don't like the idea of simulating a bit of reality with icons off, then just say so...and give a reason why...but don't say icons off isn't realistic. I can't remember the last time I saw an identity icon showing distance and type on another aircraft while I was looking out the window of the plane I was in at 30,000 feet.
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The great thing about this event is that it is new and we can do anything with it that we want. If the icon issue doesn't work the way we think it will, we change it. We can do that with any setting for that matter. This event is for those looking for a more complex, and yes realistic, event. The use of friendly collisions alone will redefine the way you fly and fight.
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well I will be there sounds like a blast and an extremely hard/fun time.
There's a long history of folks saying "no icons" is a challenge because it's harder. So why not fly at night with no ambient moonlight, no fog settings?
It's also quite challenging to fight with fuel burn set to 5.0
There's a lot of things ate make it a "challenging environment" but the one folks keep focusing on is only the they want because they think it's more realistic.
Not jumping on Gaidin. Just saying that comment isn't totally accurate. I do hope folks enjoy it. I'm not beating a dead horse. Matter of fact the only folks that call it a dead horse disagree with it.
EDIT: How about a series of these types of mini-events? Just choose another arbitrary point and make it challenging in different ways every time. For example, no icons one time, fuel burn 5x the next, night time with no ambient night the next, 25mph down draft the next, either highly reduced or increased weapons lethality the next, etc? No need to pretend it's "realistic" -- it's just challenging. Just a thought.
icons off is more "realistic", could the sticks of WW2 make there guns more powerful?or make the Fuel burn at a higher efficiency, this is just a lame.... poorly executed insult to everyone's intelligence .
Most of the sticks in WW2 that where killed by AtA, NEVER saw there attacker, gee I wonder why that is??? maybe cause they did not have a 40 foot neon sign, that is bright glowing red over there damn plane.
the one that SAW the other first 99.9% of the time won the engagement period.
think about it, they painted the planes to be harder to see IE a dark top, light bottom, so when you saw a con you would position yourself in his blind spot come in and kill him and get away, if the con that is being attacked looks around he will not see the nme approaching due to the planes camo, unless of course he spots him in adverse colors, or light glinting off the nme plane, (which they tried to have NOT happen)
MANY conflicts never happened, because they just flew by each other without ever seeing one another.
if you really believe Icons on is more realistic, then having them off
obviously the monitor cannot simulate the Human eye, but that is not why "icons on" is implemented, they are on because otherwise it would be a arena full of guys dying without ever seeing the con attacking them, IF they ever even see each other at all.
it is extremely difficult to fly with icons off, I personally don't think many will want to be in an arena that has no icons, for a hour or two? well that is different and sounds like an absolute blast.
look out for the Hurri2c being piloted by INK
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DD:
Hopefully GV's will be Incorporated into the scenario's either as stand alone events or as a piece of the greater mission. Massed gun battles are always fun :banana:
ICON's:
Much to do about having them on or off. Lets try it and find out I say. I personally like them on. Its a "game" and I like to have fun easy fun :D But I'll give it a go with them off and see.
Also in GV to GV battles their aren't any ICON's and they don't go to bad with figuring out who's good and bad. Also I would say that when AC are looking for GV's those dang ICONs give you away no matter where you hide. I think with kill shooter on folks "should" be a little slower to spray and slay against targets they can't identify.
Looking forward to the events and we all need to be patient while these fine gentlemen (CM's) get it figured out and dialed in. Have to say I will miss the jeep races. They were fun. LONG LIVE THE JEEP!!!!!! :angel:
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it's not going to be POSSIBLE to make out the plane shapes in anything approaching a reasonable range (to say nothing of realistic) for anyone not playing on a 60" big screen. You often can't even tell the difference in the skins until you're well under 600-800 yards. The other guy is in firing range before it's even POSSIBLE to make out what he is.
Agreed... I respect the CM team and the work they do but I won't take part as it stands.
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I was able to identify (correctly I might add) enemy Zero's from over 4k tonight in FSO. I was also able to identify F6F's out of the 6k icon range as well.
Its hard but I wouldnt say impossible, I can spot a P-38, 262 and other unique birds the minute they come inside the minimum dot range.
Strip
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I guess I must be a near sighted Saburo Sakai then.
Have fun! <S>
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I was able to identify (correctly I might add) enemy Zero's from over 4k tonight in FSO. I was also able to identify F6F's out of the 6k icon range as well.
Its hard but I wouldnt say impossible, I can spot a P-38, 262 and other unique birds the minute they come inside the minimum dot range.
Strip
Was you using ZOOM? or do you have a 8'Wx4'H projection screen? or did you just guess, assume and got it right both times last night.....that seems much more likely
I have one disagreement, something daddog quoted above
we have played some scenerios with icon ranges set to 1k and no icons below 1000ft, was really challenging and everyone had fun.
I would not have said "and everyone had fun" because some only had a bit of fun as long as they was above the no icon barrier and was able to stay within that 1k icon range...... I do not have as much fun when even in the AvsA when the "no icon" setting is used at whatever "below XXXft AGL" setting and the less than 3k distance before icons makes it many times much more difficult....
I was hoping to play and enjoy this AHCC event......I will try and give it my best try, but I agree with Krusty, Saxman, Delirium, Drano ......
so I can be quoted for the good of this event:
I hope it ends up being fun and enjoyable for those who participate in it :aok
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Me too. :)
I don't expect everyone to enjoy this kind of event. In fact I knew some would not even want to try it, (and that is OK) but it might appeal to another slice of the pie. :) At the same time allow a venue for CM's to try out settings that they might not want to experiment on a 'live' event.
I will say this, if any of you are concerned I will make FSO an enemy icons off event that will not happen. Each Admin CM's designs their own. What settings, (icons, ack lethality, fuel multiplier, friendly collisions, etc.) they use is up to them. It is my impression that most of my Admin CM's are quite happy with the standard short icon setting we have used for years in FSO. On occasion when I design one I will probably try something different as I did last December with icons off below 300', and a enemy 1k range, but it will never be an FSO standard. I will leave that to each designer.
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in WB we would often run extremely large missions on our nights off in the main arenas as a way of promoting the s3 ...
just a thought ...
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Please leave icons on...I'm playing on a 7" inch portable tv screen from Radio Shack.
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Radio Shack sells them screen magnifiers it will take that 7" to a 24" :aok :D
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To Daddog and Viper 61
Ater talking with Shegotya and Marshal the Jeep Races will continue. There will be some minor changes in the near future and will be announced soon.
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Looking forward to this :aok
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To Daddog and Viper 61
Ater talking with Shegotya and Marshal the Jeep Races will continue. There will be some minor changes in the near future and will be announced soon.
Cool! :) I had chatted with Shegotya for a bit about the races a couple weeks ago and did not want to step on any toes. AKKuya and you guys were there first. :) That is why I went with SEA II and the 11 PM time slot and that is why I did not change it after you decided to end it. Hope it works out for you guys. :cheers:
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Me too. :)
I don't expect everyone to enjoy this kind of event. In fact I knew some would not even want to try it, (and that is OK) but it might appeal to another slice of the pie. :) At the same time allow a venue for CM's to try out settings that they might not want to experiment on a 'live' event.
that is a good thing, and I might even give it a try at least once anyway....can't know if you will like it or not until you try it.........I only know I do not like the short icon ranges or no icon settings.....from experiencing them in the AvsA at times....
Also is always good to have a way to test/experiment with different Arena settings with "numbers" to get a good read on how they play out....
:cheers:
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Was you using ZOOM? or do you have a 8'Wx4'H projection screen? or did you just guess, assume and got it right both times last night.....that seems much more likely
I have one disagreement, something daddog quoted above
I would not have said "and everyone had fun" because some only had a bit of fun as long as they was above the no icon barrier and was able to stay within that 1k icon range...... I do not have as much fun when even in the AvsA when the "no icon" setting is used at whatever "below XXXft AGL" setting and the less than 3k distance before icons makes it many times much more difficult....
I was hoping to play and enjoy this AHCC event......I will try and give it my best try, but I agree with Krusty, Saxman, Delirium, Drano ......
so I can be quoted for the good of this event:
I hope it ends up being fun and enjoyable for those who participate in it :aok
I play on a 22" 1690x1050 Gateway screen, a better setup than average but not earth shattering, this is using zoom of course.
When we spotted the Zero's they had the default skin, very distinctive and combined with the shape gave me only one good option. The F6Fs were blue, the straight wing (verses the F4Us Gullwing) also gave me only one good option. Like I said, I can ID very distinctive planes just inside minimum dot range. The P-38 I can pretty much get the second it becomes more than a dot, same for bare skinned P-51's.
It helps to know what planes your likely to encounter, makes IDing them much easier.
Strip
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Wingman flying will become very important in this one I believe.
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Seems the Allies have a significant advantage with plane set...unsure if the planes the axis have the firepower to take out the lancasters...maybe replace with B25C's like said before...may be more equal to the Ju88s...just MHO though.
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Seems the Allies have a significant advantage with plane set...unsure if the planes the axis have the firepower to take out the lancasters...maybe replace with B25C's like said before...may be more equal to the Ju88s...just MHO though.
I'd say the 110s would have no trouble with the Lancs...
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We did a quick test on this sunday evening, splitting the squad, half in early spits, half in 109 e, f and 110c.
Daddog setup the arena, and we flew there for over an hour.
It was wicked, wild, frustrating, and amazingly fun all at the same time.
Trying to shoot when you have zero idea of how far they are, so how much lead you need is much harder.
On the other hand it was much easier to sneak in behind/below someone that never saw you.
It was much easier to spot them over the ocean than it was over land.
It was much easier to target fixate, especially on the one in front of you.
Once you got used it it, it wasn't hard to learn what range to shoot at.
When you could start making out roundels on the wings, you were close enough to hit them.
IF you could anticipate where they were headed.
I had a few clean kills, a few fly away that should have been dead, and a whole lot of fun.
Looking forward to giving this a try Daddog.
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I'd say the 110s would have no trouble with the Lancs...
:o
Stupid me...didn't even see the 110 in that list!
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We did a quick test on this sunday evening, splitting the squad, half in early spits, half in 109 e, f and 110c.
Daddog setup the arena, and we flew there for over an hour.
It was wicked, wild, frustrating, and amazingly fun all at the same time.
Trying to shoot when you have zero idea of how far they are, so how much lead you need is much harder.
On the other hand it was much easier to sneak in behind/below someone that never saw you.
It was much easier to spot them over the ocean than it was over land.
It was much easier to target fixate, especially on the one in front of you.
Once you got used it it, it wasn't hard to learn what range to shoot at.
When you could start making out roundels on the wings, you were close enough to hit them.
IF you could anticipate where they were headed.
I had a few clean kills, a few fly away that should have been dead, and a whole lot of fun.
Looking forward to giving this a try Daddog.
I seriously cant wait :aok
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The last snapshot I flew with no icons was quite intense. Better brush up on aircraft ID. "Is that a 109 or a spit?" "Do I get closer for a better view or chance it?" :noid
Can't wait, it should be excellent.
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Are we going to get any Orders from the CMs beforehand or Will they be posted in the MOTD? :cheers:
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Am going to post the write up in a bit. Will have all the info you need and will also put it in the MOTD. :)