Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: stephen on February 20, 2010, 12:22:26 AM
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I hope this plane makes it into the the update, also the SE-5 with its single Vickers on the cowl, and single Lewis gun "drum fed" on a Foster mounting on the upper wing (the Foster mount was equipt with a lever capable of dropping the lewis closer to the pilot so that he could reload the gun without standing outside of the cockpit, and was somtimes used to attack enemy aircraft by firing from the reloading position, which pointed approximatly 45% above and forward of the pilot)..., its a whole new era fellas!...
I believe (if I recall correctly) that the Spad had a tendency to shear fabric from its top wing in a dive, though this plane supposedly held its energy well by many accounts, and was used to boom and zoom in a time when said tactics where "just"being developed.
I look forward to being on the leading edge of a new game, and anyone that might have relative info on planes of that era, I invite to comment.
Later :aok
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One wierd question though...
I've read accounts of ww1 pilots exploring alttitudes above 12'000ft, how was this possible in the times before oxygen bottles?!
Its plainly stated in many pilot accounts..., anyone have an answer?
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You can go without O2 to higher alts but you need to become accustom to it...
In alot of parts of the worlds there are people who live quite high in mountain areas on a daily basses that requires O2 for other sea level type living people.
Mt. Everest is 29,028ft and people have climbed that without O2 before.
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Mt. Everest is 29,028ft and people have climbed that without O2 before.
9% fatality rate of those who try. of those that reach the summit 1 in 6 dont make it down alive.
and thats is WITH oxygen :uhoh
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The N28 had a tendency to shed fabric from the upper wing, not the Spad 13, which was one of the sturdiest divers of the war.
I've been over 14k ft without O2 before and it is no picnic. There is a photo of a DVII pilot with an O2 canister mounted in the cockpit. The pilot wore a nose-clip and held a tube in his mouth to breath. I don't know how widely things like that were used.
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Been cruising at 13K in a Cessna, - didn't even feel it.
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The Spad series flew more like the P-47 than the P-51. :D
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The Spad series flew more like the P-47 than the P-51. :D
I hope we'll get to verify that !
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because you can go for some time without O2 bottles. Eventually it will kill you, but you can make it above 12k and come back alive.
There is a certian altitude at which there isn't enough O2 to keem someone alive regardless of how effecint their bodys are at using it. People who climb everest without O2 bottles have to make it back down past that line before they asphixiate.
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I was on top of pikes peak with is 14k+ and I don't think I am dead. Actually I probably am this board is obviously hell.
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I was on top of pikes peak with is 14k+ and I don't think I am dead. Actually I probably am this board is obviously hell.
:rofl
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Been cruising at 13K in a Cessna, - didn't even feel it.
Try climbing to that altitude on foot. ;)
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FAR part 135.89 a(1) At altitudes above 10,000 through 12,000 feet MSL for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutesduration; and
(2) above 12000 feet msl
That is for unpressurized aircraft.
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because you can go for some time without O2 bottles. Eventually it will kill you, but you can make it above 12k and come back alive.
There is a certian altitude at which there isn't enough O2 to keem someone alive regardless of how effecint their bodys are at using it. People who climb everest without O2 bottles have to make it back down past that line before they asphixiate.
I was as quick as possible from SL to 13K and stayed there for an hour without even feeling it. As for the efficiency of your body, being fit will definately help.
BTW there are entire communities living above 13K....
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One wierd question though...
I've read accounts of ww1 pilots exploring alttitudes above 12'000ft, how was this possible in the times before oxygen bottles?!
Its plainly stated in many pilot accounts..., anyone have an answer?
Modern parachute recovery systems are automatically deployed at 14,000ft. The military believes this is the max safe altitude for bail-out in an open canopy. :salute
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"I've read accounts of ww1 pilots exploring alttitudes above 12'000ft, how was this possible in the times before oxygen bottles?!"
I recommend you read James McCudden's 'Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps' - he maintained his own aircraft and engine, and managed to fly his SE5a to over 20,000 feet. He suffered from dreadful headaches - but he caused even more pain to the Huns he intercepted way up there.
The normal duration of a fighter sortie in the Great War was 2-3 hours and a fair part of each was spent below the altitude where oxygen becomes necessary to sustain life. Two-seaters spotting for the artillery rarely flew higher than 8,000 feet, photo-recce the same, unless there was a call for a 'special', when the pics would be taken from a greater height. When the air war developed into longer sorties and greater altitudes, it was discovered that many pilots couldn't fly for long over 8,000 feet without suffering discomfort and dizziness, and 10-12,000 feet was enough for most. It was only exceptionally fit young men who could endure the lack of oxygen at altitude and still fight effectively.
Ever wondered why the 'Huntley and Palmer' twin-Lewis guns arrangement for the Poor Bloody Observer wasn't carried by every British and Commonwealth two-seater? Because the extra weight made it impossible for any but a superman to swivel and elevate them at altitude due to lack of oxygen, so they remained the equipment of low-level Corps art-obs and contact patrol aircraft.
:cool:
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Compressed air in steel tanks were used in aircraft in 1917 but it was a very simple system and could fail easily in combat especially if the pilot misplaced the breathing tube.
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I know angus, the danger line is above 13k.
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This was posted on the Main HTC web page when they announced the WWI arena......
We are pleased to announce an upcoming expansion to the Aces High plane set that will introduce World War I (WWI) air combat to the skies of Aces High. The initial four plane set will consist of the Fokker Dr.I, Sopwith Camel, Bristol F.2B, and Fokker D.VII.
So those are the four we will get with the release. And now we have a "wish" for the SPAD, and the game hasn't even been released yet! LOL!!
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How high were the Gotha's and the Zeppelins flying? More than 13K for sure....?
Anyway, in the 30K's one also should start feeling "bends", and they're pretty nasty at 40K. At 50K the pressure is so low that one cannot breathe (inhale) any more, - hence the pressure breathing of the uncompressed aircraft that operated so high.
The bends was a problem which hurt some more than others BTW.
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The Zeppelins had steel tanks with liquid oxygen at duty stations and the crew also had iron flasks of liquid oxygen so they could move from one location to another and then hook up to a steel tank again.
At the end of WW1 there were 3000 specialty masks delivered to France (the first of their type) that had been produced in America and included microphones for communications and rebreather apparatus (not of perfect design though). America was not the first to produce such things (Germany and France being among the first) but they did make marked improvements in manufacturing quality.
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How high were the Gotha's and the Zeppelins flying? More than 13K for sure....?
Anyway, in the 30K's one also should start feeling "bends", and they're pretty nasty at 40K. At 50K the pressure is so low that one cannot breathe (inhale) any more, - hence the pressure breathing of the uncompressed aircraft that operated so high.
The bends was a problem which hurt some more than others BTW.
IIRC, Gothas flew much higher than Zeppelins. They had a service ceiling of more than 20k ft.
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How high were the Gotha's and the Zeppelins flying? More than 13K for sure....?
For Zeppelins, the usual ceilings were around 9-14k. I'm sure there were higher altitudes achieved but not by much. Because of the very nature how Zeppelins operated you could only go so high and get back down safely because acending involved dropping ballast and decending involved replacing hydrogen with air. You of course had to account for the bombs you were going to drop so they RTB'ed higher than they flew to the target.
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Read for yourself the history of oxygen systems used in military aircraft:
http://www.authorsden.com/categories/article_top.asp?catid=73&id=36665
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Remember, the FAA doesn't even require Oxygen for general aviation pilots until they hit 14,000 feet, or if you're at 12,500ft or more for longer than 30 min...
I went up to Spokane, WA to the altitude chamber at Fairchild. They took us up to 25k, where I started feeling pretty hypoxic, but I was able to do most of the tests they assigned all the way up to about 18k or so. Would it be safe to fly that high without supplemental O2? Nope. But could it be done if necessary in wartime? Sure.
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the Fokker D.VII is all I need - the rest is just targets to take out. Thats what I fly on RoF, and thats what I will fly here.
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Hi I'm new here.
Getting back on topic, the Spad XIII was at best. a fast plane, and a terrific diver, but with it's weight and gentle airfoil camber, it was at it's limit for anything more than zoom and boom tactics. The Spad VII was still preferred by some of the French and Lafayette squads when the Spad XII arrived, as it had speed and could still maneuver somewhat. What isn't mentioned is the geardrive tenderness of the 200 H.P. Hisso, or the weakness of it's cooling system. Comparing one of the best WWII fighters that had a relatively long history in it's theatre of use to a model improvement that appeared somewhat late to WWI is a bit of an apples to oranges. :old:
I would suggest that the SE5A could be an example of a WWI plane that was kinda like the Spitty or Mustang. But you have to remember that most WWI planes didn't weigh much over 1700 pounds, were largely made of hi tensile steel wire, wood and cloth, had gobs of drag, and had engines and guns that more often times than not, just conked out for no good reason.
Now the Spad XI two seater, it could be possibly compared with the Curtiss Helldiver.... :bolt:
Oh yeah, I also make 3D models of WWI planes.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/sherlew/spad1.jpg)
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Comparing one of the best WWII fighters that had a relatively long history in it's theatre of use to a model improvement that appeared somewhat late to WWI is a bit of an apples to oranges. :old:
The P-51 also appeared late in the game, fyi. The P-38, P-47 and Spitfire had the lion's share of work in the west already done when the Merlin powered P-51 arrived on the scene.
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He also missed the point that most airplanes had either welded steel tubing or welded aluminum tubing for a fuselage (at least) and most control surfaces were the same.
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The P-51 also appeared late in the game, fyi. The P-38, P-47 and Spitfire had the lion's share of work in the west already done when the Merlin powered P-51 arrived on the scene.
March of '43 isn't that late to the game, plus there were a number delivered to England on lend lease that saw action before then. Not great numbers mind you, and with the Allison instead of the Merlin or Packard.
My dad saw one of the prototypes fly from the North American test airfield in '39. He said it was incredibly fast even then.
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He also missed the point that most airplanes had either welded steel tubing or welded aluminum tubing for a fuselage (at least) and most control surfaces were the same.
Not that I missed it, more to say i didn't also mention it. But yes Fokker and Brequet did make largely metal structured cloth covered aircraft, and we have the Junkers corrugated aluminum and amour plated ground attack beasts. That being said the Spads, Sopwith Camels, Snipes, and Salamanders, and SE5a's were still largely wood and linen.
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March of '43 isn't that late to the game, plus there were a number delivered to England on lend lease that saw action before then. Not great numbers mind you, and with the Allison instead of the Merlin or Packard.
My dad saw one of the prototypes fly from the North American test airfield in '39. He said it was incredibly fast even then.
Merlin powered P-51Bs first show up in Oct. of '43 and didn't fly operations in Europe until Dec. of '43. The P-51D operations didn't get fully into swing until mid-1944. Where the heck did you get March of '43 from?
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Are we referring to US Army Air Corps operations or RAF? :headscratch:
I will admit to being not fully cognizant of the operational history of the Mustang, as I'm more of a WWI history buff, but the British were the first to realize the potential of the Mustang and they did install the first Merlin into the Apache, did they not?
Anyway, do you guys all get this combative with noobs here? I was just making small talk. Besides we're making comparisons between aircraft that have little in the way of analogous operational histories.
Do I get a welcome..
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Merlin powered P-51Bs first show up in Oct. of '43 and didn't fly operations in Europe until Dec. of '43. The P-51D operations didn't get fully into swing until mid-1944. Where the heck did you get March of '43 from?
Well A-36 deliveries were complete in March '43 and the first P-51 mission by the USAAF was made in April '43. As LesterBoffo mentioned, RAF had been flying P-51 operations before that. He also mentioned that he was talking about Allison-Mustangs. He's actually pretty much correct.
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One wierd question though...
I've read accounts of ww1 pilots exploring alttitudes above 12'000ft, how was this possible in the times before oxygen bottles?!
Its plainly stated in many pilot accounts..., anyone have an answer?
Been to 13,000 in an unpressurized aircraft without oxygen myself. It's not a great idea for long durations, but it is doable.
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I drove my car to 14,000 and stayed around for a couple hours.
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I have lung damage (from ammonia) and I have to go on oxygen at 8000 feet. I dont think every healthy person even can remain functional at just 14000 for very long.
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Welcome to AcesHigh Lester!
If you want to post here you better grow a thick skin,even if your imformation is correct chances are someone will find so fault to argue over.... :lol :lol
Be sure to be prepared to backup any statements but by all means go ahead and post away.
:salute
PS: Actually the community here is pretty good even if it doesnt seem like it at times.
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Captain Eddie flew one.
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I dont think every healthy person even can remain functional at just 14000 for very long.
If you're 'healthy' (able to pass a class III FAA flight physical, not too tough if you have normal heart and lung function) you aren't required to use suplemental oxygen until you've reached 14,000 feet. Passengers must have it available (not required to use it...) after the aircraft passes 15,000 feet.
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If you're 'healthy' (able to pass a class III FAA flight physical, not too tough if you have normal heart and lung function) you aren't required to use suplemental oxygen until you've reached 14,000 feet. Passengers must have it available (not required to use it...) after the aircraft passes 15,000 feet.
BUT, you may only remain above 12,000 for 30 minutes without supplemental oxygen.
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If you're 'healthy' (able to pass a class III FAA flight physical, not too tough if you have normal heart and lung function) you aren't required to use suplemental oxygen until you've reached 14,000 feet. Passengers must have it available (not required to use it...) after the aircraft passes 15,000 feet.
You can still have issues and pass the physical. Even with a lung that has seen too much ammonia I can function and fly a plane at 14000 just like you but I wont be talking at an understandable level without oxygen or I will be doing a lot of coughing one or the other. Experience has taught me that I can avoid problems by using a oxygen at a lower altitude and Im sure there are others that do the same.
Point is in WW1 they had oxygen regardless of what we do now in practice or via regulation.
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Welcome to AcesHigh Lester!
If you want to post here you better grow a thick skin,even if your imformation is correct chances are someone will find so fault to argue over.... :lol :lol
Be sure to be prepared to backup any statements but by all means go ahead and post away.
:salute
PS: Actually the community here is pretty good even if it doesnt seem like it at times.
Thanks Morfiend, I'm pretty used to it. I guess it would be near suicide to mention I'm from the Targetware Richthofen's Skies development group? :bolt: Actually I'm doing the offline pioneering flight module. This Bulletin board seems like a fun place to be.
:cheers:
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I have lung damage (from ammonia) and I have to go on oxygen at 8000 feet. I dont think every healthy person even can remain functional at just 14000 for very long.
Don't most commercial flights pressurize to roughly 7-8k? Do you have to carry an O2 bottle on a regular commercial flight?
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No at 8000 and standard pressure everything is fine but proceeding above that and concentrating on any task takes energy and talking takes up more energy (plus the air). If you spend any time in a thermal/wave/ridge (especially with other aircraft around) at 11000 you will quickly learn what Im talking about and push it on up to 15000 and it all becomes very obvious. Also you have to remember that atmospheric pressure is not constant and even as low as 8000 pressure can be so low that it feels as if you are much higher. Of course when WWI is released it will probably be the same as AHII and pressure will be constant.
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No at 8000 and standard pressure everything is fine
So, my idea of standar commercial pressure of between 7 and 8k is correct? Yes?
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Lester, I thought I recognized your name from the targetware boards. I dl'd RS a while back and spent some time reading the boards. Welcome! Btw, stiglr acts the same on this board as he does over ther lol
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So, my idea of standar commercial pressure of between 7 and 8k is correct? Yes?
FAA Regulations say cabin altitude may not exceed 8000 but most cabin pressures are 5500-6900 I believe. The FAA holds that exceeding 9800 feet requires artificially mantained cabin pressure to avoid hypoxia or altitude sickness (alkalosis) or decompression sickness (gas embolisms) or barotrauma (aerotitus). Primarily the cabin crew or automated devices must maintain a pressure differential that does not exceed 8.6 psi.
EDIT: There is way to get around altitude certification requirements but...
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No at 8000 and standard pressure everything is fine but proceeding above that and concentrating on any task takes energy and talking takes up more energy (plus the air). If you spend any time in a thermal/wave/ridge (especially with other aircraft around) at 11000 you will quickly learn what Im talking about and push it on up to 15000 and it all becomes very obvious. Also you have to remember that atmospheric pressure is not constant and even as low as 8000 pressure can be so low that it feels as if you are much higher. Of course when WWI is released it will probably be the same as AHII and pressure will be constant.
Am I correct in reading that you said that AHII has a constant air pressure from sea level to whatever altitude?
Doesn't this make for some uberness of planes flown NA? I mean even creaky old Fighter Squadron has engine power reduction with altitude. Try chasing the Zepp in the Furious ship launced Sopwith Pup mission at over 15,000 feet up. You have to stair step and manage your airspeed to climb rate just to catch it.
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MMMM SPADS.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/2874498452_7856a49503_b.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/2873758733_a1e94cc6c1_b.jpg)
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Am I correct in reading that you said that AHII has a constant air pressure from sea level to whatever altitude?
Doesn't this make for some uberness of planes flown NA? I mean even creaky old Fighter Squadron has engine power reduction with altitude. Try chasing the Zepp in the Furious ship launced Sopwith Pup mission at over 15,000 feet up. You have to stair step and manage your airspeed to climb rate just to catch it.
No you misinterpreted. The pressure at sea level in AH is a constant. If pressure did not change with altitude then the engines would perform loads better at high altitude than they do at sea level (because of boosting in whatever fashion engines are boosted). In real life the 'standard atmospheric pressure' only happens infrequently which is why we have climate change (precipitation and fog and thin air and thick air etc etc). Something you should be happy you dont see is 'barometric pressure inversions' and a few other nasty environments from real life... not that it would make too much difference since most people in AH dont even know they have instruments.
I always liked the Spad XIII and Albatros DVa and I hope we see both.
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Am I correct in reading that you said that AHII has a constant air pressure from sea level to whatever altitude?
No, he meant that AH doesn't have high pressure zones and low pressure zones so the air pressure at a given altitude is always the same at that altitude. It does change, following standard pressures, as altitude changes though. That is why, for example, the Ki-84 sucks at 25000ft but the Spitfire Mk IX is great at 25000ft, an inversion of their standing at sea level.
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MMMM SPADS.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/2874498452_7856a49503_b.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/2873758733_a1e94cc6c1_b.jpg)
VERY nice lyric. When I was a wee tyke, I read of WW1 pilots. Had that picture of Rickenbacker.
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Frankly I hope there's enough interest in two seaters and the early war planes that your sim gets a well rounded representation of the planes used during the years they were present. Most of the flights over the front were doing barrage fire spotting and observation/ bombing. Call me strange, but I'd get a bigger thrill out of successfully fending off an Alby DII attack in a BE2c while on a obs mission and making it home by the skin of my teeth, than just the general furball between Spads and Fokker DVII's. Not that there's anything wrong with furballs.
Just sayin'..... :joystick: