Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: caldera on March 03, 2010, 09:41:02 AM
-
Bring your child to work day? Heads are gonna roll. :uhoh
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,587801,00.html
Would have been great if the kid used our squad check6 call:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jalmjjztmjh
-
I saw that on the news and almost choked on dinner. How Fn stupid do you have to be?!?
-
Don't get your panties in a bunch over this one. The kid had a show day, dad had to drag him to work and he like a lot of children at one point under careful scrutiny get to talk on the radio from time to time. The pilots liked it, the kid used near perfect phraseology and in the good old days was something that happened more frequently than today.
Today everyone has their bellybutton wound so tightly that the controller and supervisor have been relieved of their duties over something the media knows nothing about. It's not just BS it's the highest order of sweet BS that would cause me to roll into a political/media rant that is best not done on this board.
-
I have no problem with it Golfer. Thought it was funny. :) The kid was supervised, but you know people love to complain.
-
i see nothing wrong with what the kid did he was fully supervised and only gave departing calls, not like he was landing a jet with no engines and on fire, seems the pilots liked it to me, sometimes the news just needs to shut up, but hey thats Fox
-
I really just don't understand the problem. Its not like the kid was up there with nobody around. I am sure his dad was right there and told him everything to say. The pilots enjoyed it, the kid sounded more professional than some people I have to deal with on a daily basis that are supposed to be professionals.
-
I'm not sure what the big deal is, they sure were making alot of hay about it on the news this morning.
-
Sounds like to me he did a good job, what's the problem here? A dad took his son to work like every other company man has to do eventually, just because he is in a tower he gets into trouble? What about cops who bring their kid to work, or fireman, is their job any less dangerous?
-
The only critique I might give is it wasn't a very slow time. The father (controller) was doing most of the talking with the kid breaking in every now and then with something to say. Directed of course with everything carefully worded and I'm sure rehearsed to perfection before he ever hit the PTT switch.
"Heads will roll..."
More like eyes.
-
The parties involved will be suspended I bet. Not agreeing with it, just an observation.
-
Don't get your panties in a bunch over this one. The kid had a show day, dad had to drag him to work and he like a lot of children at one point under careful scrutiny get to talk on the radio from time to time. The pilots liked it, the kid used near perfect phraseology and in the good old days was something that happened more frequently than today.
Today everyone has their bellybutton wound so tightly that the controller and supervisor have been relieved of their duties over something the media knows nothing about. It's not just BS it's the highest order of sweet BS that would cause me to roll into a political/media rant that is best not done on this board.
oo!!!
stop that you!! no common sense allowed!!
:neener:
-
When I was a kid some 30 years ago my dad was a pilot and in those days you had to have a licens to be able to communicate with the tower. However being a dad trying to teach his kid neat and new things he taught me to talk to the tower for taxing and take off. Never once did anyone one say anything to my dad about breaking protocol and yes there was a big WTG when I did it right from the tower as well as from my pop. Since those days I have become a pilot myself and believe me that the kid was easier to understand than some of the controllers I've heard. Especially on the AWOS recordings you hear for airport information. There are a couple of airstrips near atlanta that you cannot understand a single word the dummy is trying to say in what should be the english language. But thats affirmitave action for you.
He also let my fly the airplane (auto pilot on. I couldnt apply enough preasure to disengage it) and that was also against the rules but again that was a different time.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4s2irdJpEk
-
What's the big deal? Under close supervision the Forth Worth ARTCC will let you talk on center and approach frequencies. As expected, you go through some ground school and rehearsal before ever keying the mike.
-
Golfer great find on YT. I see nothing wrong with this at all, the father was obviously right there, telling him what to say, hell I'm sure the kid knows 90% of the terminology already, else he wouldn't have even wanted to go. The pilots were loving it.
The FAA really has their heads stuck up their butts.
-
What's the big deal? Under close supervision the Forth Worth ARTCC will let you talk on center and approach frequencies. As expected, you go through some ground school and rehearsal before ever keying the mike.
I've never seen or heard of folks as part of a tour getting time behind a radar scope. All the ATC trainees out there are bad enough I can't imagine many Sup's allowing Joe Schmoe to come in and work traffic nor many controllers wanting the responsibility.
-
Sorry for bringing STEALTH to the airport guys, I'll never do it again. :angel:
-
LiveATC is a double edged sword. More exposure to the profession, as well as more scrutiny by no nothing public. Previously it wouldve taken a foia request to get those tapes. Wonder who's the editorial bellybutton clown who thought it'd be a great story instead of a feel good human interest story about inspiring yr kids to be something.
-
I agree, there's nothing wrong with this, the kid wasn't trying to screw anything up, and he DID have someone that does this every day telling him what to do.
I was on a C-17 flyin to AK one time, and there was this IDIOT fat kid that started talking to the tower thinking he was on the hot mic! He coulda got some people in BIG trouble, he was just talking nonsense!
It was pretty funny though, they just "asked" him to get out of the cockpit and not come back,lol
-
nothing wrong with this at all, its just bending the rules a bit. I mean its not like lives are at stake, no one ever died in a taxiing aircraft right? reminds me of that aeroflot flight where a 15yr old kid was left at the controls and stuffed a A310 into a hillside, its just a bit of fun.
-
I find myself agreeing with Golfer on this but in todays world of 'oh gawd this flu is going to kill us all!' (nope just a regular flu) people will have their pound of flesh.
-
nothing wrong with this at all, its just bending the rules a bit. I mean its not like lives are at stake, no one ever died in a taxiing aircraft right? reminds me of that aeroflot flight where a 15yr old kid was left at the controls and stuffed a A310 into a hillside, its just a bit of fun.
The worst air disaster in history involved two airplanes on the ground with two professional crews and tower controller.
That notwithstanding we as a country are a bunch of wussies with a capital P anymore. This should have been nothing more than a feel good human interest story about a kid enjoying a snow day with his father getting an opportunity to do something neat. Now they're calling for congressional hearings. WTF?
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4s2irdJpEk
Oh my lord, one of those pilots said a sentence faster than I could say 2 words. :O
-
...in those days you had to have a licens to be able to communicate with the tower...
You still do.
-
I've never seen or heard of folks as part of a tour getting time behind a radar scope. All the ATC trainees out there are bad enough I can't imagine many Sup's allowing Joe Schmoe to come in and work traffic nor many controllers wanting the responsibility.
It's not as much a tour as it is a planned event.
-
The worst air disaster in history involved two airplanes on the ground with two professional crews and tower controller.
sry I forgot the </sarcasm> tag. the russian kid was also "enjoying a ... day with his father getting an opportunity to do something neat", 75 people died as a result.
its cool for the kid sure, but he has no conception of the high stakes involved. my problem with it is that the ATCs involved plainly dont take their job seriously.
-
sry I forgot the </sarcasm> tag. the russian kid was also "enjoying a ... day with his father getting an opportunity to do something neat", 75 people died as a result.
its cool for the kid sure, but he has no conception of the high stakes involved. my problem with it is that the ATCs involved plainly dont take their job seriously.
As usual one thing alone does not cause an accident. A series of events or chain leads to an accidents and the Aeroflot accident is no different. Simply having a 15 year old boy in that aircraft did not put it into the dirt.
I had a line service girl come into the airplane the other day while getting ready for departure. She dropped off the catering and stopped for a moment to chat. She asked if she could push any buttons not seeming to expect a yes in reply. I said sure as it would be a big help so I talked her through which buttons on the FMS to press as she input the routing that would take us across the country. She had a big smile, had fun and did just fine without killing anyone. Does this mean I don't take my job seriously? Hardly.
The JFK controller put the departing aircraft into position and hold giving them the weather and runway assignment. All the kid did was say "Go." He didn't give taxi instructions, he did not give landing clearances, he did not actually do anything thats different than pushing a button that says Go.
This event is not a big deal. The kid actually did better than some of the ATC trainees out there who have been through training and are in the process of being checked out in their positions. It's a tragedy that something that did not endanger one soul is turned into a potential career ending BS event because of the uneducated masses and our ever brilliant media/political leaders. Absolutely asinine.
-
I thought it was adorable and you can tell the pilots really enjoyed it as well. 0 risk, 0 possibility of it causing a problem, as stated he was only handeling departures and was clearly being closely watched and coached.
some people need to get a life, there is plenty of things going on these days to get all rile up and pissed about, a cute kid and his farther having a moment and some fun is not one of them.
-
LOL, good for that kid for doing that. Dam government over reactive over something that i am sure JFK had upper management next to him and tell him what to say.
-
This country is running out of controversies is all. Gotta work with what they can find. :rolleyes:
-
What sucks is that the kid probably will not able to get near a plane in his life ever again after this...
-
The kid will never even get his wrist slapped, nor as a minor should he.....
I find myself agreeing with Golfer, this is BS of the highest order.
Strip
-
What I can say is this...kids are a distraction...in a place of ATC with the amount of traffic that goes through JFK what if the kid fell off a chair and broke his arm? You dont think daddy is going to stop looking at the green tube to help his boy? The kid will most likely be screaming his lungs out from the fall and broken arm...it would be nearly impossible for the other ATControllers to do their job efficently. For that few minutes hes not looking what if something happened to an airliner? Hundreds dead...how do you explain that?
This time it was all fun and games and it was a break from the rigorious routine of the same thing everyday I get that....ive logged close to 1000 hours of flight time and the same thing over and over again sucks sometimes...but like I said...this time it was fine and nothing happened...but you never know what might happen.
-
...what if the kid fell off a chair and broke his arm? Hundreds dead...how do you explain that?
I've got my single/multi instrument, and single/multi commercial, and it would be much more likely that a UFO would suddenly strike the plane and destroy it, lol. The kid was supervised by his father who was employed there, and they had his supervisor's permission. The kid actually sounded better than many regular ATC types I interact with. No harm in doing that at all. Talk about over-reaction...
-
Im pretty sure a kid falling out of a chair and breaking his arm is more likely than birds getting caught in the engines of a 737...but we all know that happens as well.
-
What I can say is this...kids are a distraction...in a place of ATC with the amount of traffic that goes through JFK what if the kid fell off a chair and broke his arm?
Really! Go find us data on number of kids falling off a chair and breaking their arm.
-
Im pretty sure a kid falling out of a chair and breaking his arm is more likely than birds getting caught in the engines of a 737...but we all know that happens as well.
Actually, bird strikes aren't that uncommon at all. But a pair of birds killing both engines has only happened once in history that I'm aware of.
Here's a great site for that:
http://www.birdstrike.org/events/signif.htm
It would be just as likely that the ATC guy had a stroke or a sudden fit of Tourette's syndrome as his child's chance of falling out of the chair and breaking his arm while talking to traffic :rolleyes:
*edit* Yipes! Read that MD-80 out of TX...hit 400 birds. THAT would certainly make the flight interesting. Also...cabin depressurization from high-altitude bird strike; never knew of that one.
-
What I can say is this...kids are a distraction...in a place of ATC with the amount of traffic that goes through JFK what if the kid fell off a chair and broke his arm? You dont think daddy is going to stop looking at the green tube to help his boy? The kid will most likely be screaming his lungs out from the fall and broken arm...it would be nearly impossible for the other ATControllers to do their job efficently. For that few minutes hes not looking what if something happened to an airliner? Hundreds dead...how do you explain that?
This time it was all fun and games and it was a break from the rigorious routine of the same thing everyday I get that....ive logged close to 1000 hours of flight time and the same thing over and over again sucks sometimes...but like I said...this time it was fine and nothing happened...but you never know what might happen.
Let's say the kid were to fall out and break his arm and scream so loud that nobody in the room could talk/hear. We pilots have enough training to know how to fly without ATC telling us what to do, everything would be fine.
-
Let's say the kid were to fall out and break his arm and scream so loud that nobody in the room could talk/hear. We pilots have enough training to know how to fly without ATC telling us what to do, everything would be fine.
:aok
-
Actually, bird strikes aren't that uncommon at all. But a pair of birds killing both engines has only happened once in history that I'm aware of.
Here's a great site for that:
http://www.birdstrike.org/events/signif.htm
It would be just as likely that the ATC guy had a stroke or a sudden fit of Tourette's syndrome as his child's chance of falling out of the chair and breaking his arm while talking to traffic :rolleyes:
*edit* Yipes! Read that MD-80 out of TX...hit 400 birds. THAT would certainly make the flight interesting. Also...cabin depressurization from high-altitude bird strike; never knew of that one.
Vulch Kills!
Date: 7 January 1997
Aircraft: MD-80
Airport: Dallas-Fort Worth (TX)
Phase of Flight: Climb (50’ AGL)
Effect on Flight: Precautionary landing
Damage: Engine & wing
Wildlife Species: Blackbirds (437)
Comments from Report: Aircraft struck over 400 birds just after take off. Almost every part of the plane was hit. Pilot declared an emergency and returned to land without event. Substantial damage was found on various parts of the aircraft. #1 engine had to be replaced. Runway was closed for an hour. Personnel were sent to disperse another large flock on the airfield.
Must have mis-ID the Road Runner
Date: 12 June 1999
Aircraft: Beechcraft 90
Airport: Westchester County (NY)
Phase of Flight: Take off
Effect on Flight: Aborted take off
Damage: Landing gear, nose, engines, props, wings, fuselage, lights
Wildlife Species: Coyote
Comments from Report: Nose gear was torn from aircraft causing other parts of plane to be damaged. Time out of service 5 months, lost revenue $55,000 and cost of repairs $550,000.
Alternative deer hunting.
Date: 17 December 1997
Aircraft: Bellanca Super Viking
Airport: Jefferson County (OH)
Phase of Flight: Take off
Effect on Flight: Aircraft lost power
Damage: Destroyed
Wildlife Species: White-tailed deer
Comments from Report: Aircraft hit a deer on take off and lost power, crashing into a heavily wooded area. Aircraft was destroyed. Pilot was life-flighted out and passenger had minor injuries.
Date: 14 January 2001
Aircraft: Learjet 60
Airport: Troy Municipal (AL)
Phase of Flight: Landing
Effect on Flight: Aircraft slid off runway
Damage: Aircraft destroyed
Wildlife Species: White-tailed deer
Comments from Report: The Learjet collided with two deer and ran off the end of the runway into a ditch because the thrust reversers would not operate. The aircraft burst into flames. Rescuers kept the fire from reaching the pilots for about 40 minutes until they could be removed. The pilot and first officer had serious injuries and were flown to a hospital. The plane was owned by the Dallas Cowboys owner. Cost to replace aircraft $9.5 million. Other costs $25,000.
-
Although harmless this time, deviating from standard safety procedures shouldn't be tolerated when dealing with peoples lives. By not punishing those involved there would be a dangerous precedence set.
I wouldn't call that wussification, I'd call that common sense.
-
The pilots knew what was going on, Dad repeated it clearly and was making sure he did not do the tough stuff and the important stuff.
I thought it was great.
-
Although harmless this time, deviating from standard safety procedures shouldn't be tolerated when dealing with peoples lives. By not punishing those involved there would be a dangerous precedence set.
I wouldn't call that wussification, I'd call that common sense.
That's what people aren't understanding, lives absolutely were not in any kind of danger whatsoever from a child being directed by his father to say "cleared for takeoff" or "contact to departure." Like Golfer said it was the equivalent of saying Go. He didn't clear anyone to taxi onto a runway, didn't read off an IFR clearance, nothing of the sort. He waved the little green flag that the captain of the plane was expecting to here and that's it. People are way too uptight about anything having to do with airplanes.
-
Boortz made the point today that when a pilot hears something unexpected like this kid over the radio he is suddenly wide awake alert and looking around. The only thing you hear the kid doing is giving departure clearance which is like saying 'GO!' by the numbers. Maybe its not strictly approved to have kids in the tower but I still feel for ATC... BOHICA.
-
This was posted on another board.
The FAA could have used this in a positive manner for their reputation by explaining how safe and supervised the system is. They should have shown how that the controller was on the primary set and would have walked on any error. That the supervisor had complete control of the situation and was monitoring that just as he monitors all controller activity. They could have used it to show just how effective the ATC system is rather than let this turn into something ugly. What they did was made it look like the system is so frail that it is always on the point of failure. They could have made something good of it, but didn't because we have brow-beat everyone into submission with the constant harping. Might have helped them get some interest and motivated people to become controllers. No what they did was make people think "hell, don't want no part of working with that kind of gun to my head".
-
Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing, once all the other options have been exhausted.--Winston Churchill
-
What I can say is this...kids are a distraction...in a place of ATC with the amount of traffic that goes through JFK what if the kid fell off a chair and broke his arm? You dont think daddy is going to stop looking at the green tube to help his boy? The kid will most likely be screaming his lungs out from the fall and broken arm...it would be nearly impossible for the other ATControllers to do their job efficently. For that few minutes hes not looking what if something happened to an airliner? Hundreds dead...how do you explain that?
This time it was all fun and games and it was a break from the rigorious routine of the same thing everyday I get that....ive logged close to 1000 hours of flight time and the same thing over and over again sucks sometimes...but like I said...this time it was fine and nothing happened...but you never know what might happen.
You should have the knowledge to not make statements like this.
Go visit a tower cab because if you think there are green screens and radar positions where the local controllers work (Ground/Tower positions) you have not only misconceptions of what ATC does but what also they are capable of doing for you.
You'll most likely find a BRITE, a light gun, a few radios, phones, binoculars and swivel chairs. There will be a light board or screen controls for all the airport lights, navaid and approach equipment. You'll also find regular Joes who are very good at what they do and know what is and isn't safe. Kennedy is a little more sophisticated with an ASDE for ground controllers. You see this at airports where the ATIS advertises you to keep your transponder on while on runway/taxiways.
If your idea is what you eluded to you are doing yourself a disservice by not taking a visit to a TRACON and Local ATC facility.
As for the rest of your ideas of how things could go awry with a kid in the cab I think your misconceptions of what ATC does contributes to what you see as a grave danger when such a danger does not exist.
This is from a fairly busy tower cab and is a participant in the Big Brothers Big Sisters program. If you think a controller would put airplanes and those on them in danger then I don't know what to make of that. That is not the case and I think you can see the excitement in this kids eyes that he has a chance to be there.
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/KidControlling.jpg)
-
Golfer is right. This is no big deal.
-
20 or 30 years ago, this would have been lauded as an inspiring moment for a child to participate in. What a great memory for a child to carry into adulthood, and possibly an inspiration for her future! The flying community at large (and us wannabe's) understand. What a sad, morose time we live in today...
-
This is ridiculous. I listened to the youtube video.... and the kid did nothing to distract the pilots in any way, Everything was audible and understandable. You hear the ATC guys giving the vital instructions then the kid says go.
At the bottom of the Fox Article:
The episode comes less than seven months after a controller at an airport in nearby Teterboro, N.J., was placed on leave for his actions in the moments leading up to a deadly crash between a helicopter and small plane over the Hudson River.
Gotta leave it to Fox News to take a story about family values and turning it into fear mongering.
-
Golfer, can I be that kid please? :pray
I really hope that Fox making a big whoop out of this dosen't ruin my chances of that... I have always wanted to check out an ATC tower for a day or so. It's not ok for a kid to say "ok, you can go now" to an airplane, yet it is ok for a kid to drive a car... from what I've seen of other kids driving their teacher coulda been Bin Laden's suicide division!
-
The media knows it's not a big deal. They're simply blowing it out of proportion for ratings.
Same as a coffee shops add glaze to their donuts, the media adds lies and irrelevant information to their stories. Why? It makes the story more "attractive."
-
(T|O) Awards this situation 10,895 KRUSTYs.
-
I cant believe the FAA disciplined the controller at JFK for bringing his kid to work. Totally innocent, the kid was doing what he was supposed to be doing because his dad was giving him directions, and the FAA claims to say "This behavior is not acceptable and does not demonstrate the kind of professionalism expected... from all FAA employees". Completely unfair and strict. :mad:
-
Ok I have read all the posts and I only find 1 thing offensive and incorrect...
The title says "Squeaker".... LOL to me that didn't saound as bad as some people flying in AH... So is the title wrong???
-
Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing, once all the other options have been exhausted.--Winston Churchill
The only reason I am not putting that in my sig is that the amount of flame and skuzzification I will get is not worth it. But its close
:rofl :rofl :rofl
-
Don't get your panties in a bunch over this one. The kid had a show day, dad had to drag him to work and he like a lot of children at one point under careful scrutiny get to talk on the radio from time to time. The pilots liked it, the kid used near perfect phraseology and in the good old days was something that happened more frequently than today.
Today everyone has their bellybutton wound so tightly that the controller and supervisor have been relieved of their duties over something the media knows nothing about. It's not just BS it's the highest order of sweet BS that would cause me to roll into a political/media rant that is best not done on this board.
Well said.
-
It's all fun & games with a kid on local until someone pokes their eye out with the landing gear. I'm not a fan of being cavalier with the safety of others.
-
Its not the fact that this kid did nothing wrong, its what else has been happening if this kid was allowed to talk on the radio, what other kids have been able to talk across the nation...some probably not with departure, but with approach.
With hundreds of thousands of civilans in the air, this is a breach in security.. it does NOT matter whether he had better communication skills than some other ATC or his dad was behind him telling him what to say...that is not the point! The point is if this has happened once how many other times has it happened..maybe not with a 6 year old but older kids as well? Teenagers?
I have came in on approach many times in crowded airspaces around the houston area...im sure as hell glad the ATC told me how close I was to other aircraft, cause there have been many times where I would not have seen some of the smaller aircraft if it was not for the ATC. If I heard a kid on the radio around here in Houston ill find another airport to land at...I will NOT risk my life or other fellow airmen at the expense of a tower turned into a daddy day care.
You could probably put this in the same category as putting a kid as a dispatcher for the police department...
If this incident turned out badly you all would be singing a totally different tune
-
Flipperk, the kid wasn't doing anything at all involving separation of aircraft. Saying "takeoff" can't go wrong and cause someone to die. It just doesn't work that way! Now if the kid was working approach and giving headings/vectors to final then it's a different story. I can 100% promise you that this country has nothing to fear from prepubescent children taking over the world of ATC.
Now if you're on approach in conditions where you're able to see and avoid other aircraft and are suprised that an airplane slipped by your scan until ATC told you about it then maybe you need to take a harder look at your scan. Not keeping up an effective scan for traffic in clear conditions is a much greater danger than a ten year old boy saying "cleared for takeoff." I will happily have that ten year old tell me to take off under a watchful eye at my airport any day of the week.
-
Sounds a little hysterical, similar to the tenor of the news coverage. When you cite "hundreds of thousands" as potentially being put at risk in this situation I envision a legion of kindergartners simultaneously hijacking ARTCC, Approach and tower facilities and providing seperation services. Hell, I've heard kids on frequency before. I was dealing with Omaha approach several years ago late at night talking to a little girl. I could hear dad(?) coaching her when he keyed the mike.
As was pointed out earlier the young man was not providing sequencing, separation or traffic advisorys. He was saying "Cleared for takeoff", "contact approach" and "adios". The people that have far more standing than anyone on this board to be outraged about this, the flight crews, were chuckling about it. Ahhh...it turns out they are actually complicit in this glaring breach of safety...Probably be a good idea to issue emergency revocation of their certificates as well as ruining the kids day and probably the career of the responsible adult. This is silly.
-
Its not what did happen..its what could have...
-
Its not what did happen..its what could have...
Like what? Maybe like they ran the aircraft off the runway after they were cleared for takoff? I'd be for gutting that kid from crotch to eyeball with a dull deer antler if he had allowed that to happen. Guess I see your point.
-
Its not what did happen..its what could have...
Using that logic I could get hit by a meteor tomorrow on my way to Chicago. Does that mean I don't go?
Flipperk it would do you a great service to actually learn what a tower controller does, the scope of their responsibility and how they actually do their job. You are claiming knowledge and experience with something your words reveal you actually know nothing about. You have some great misconceptions about what ATC is/does, how they work and what they can actually do which is doing you a disservice.
The kid wasn't sitting at a scope at ZHU (that's the code for the Houston ARTCC) or the IAH TRACON sequencing and separating airplanes. He did nothing more than pushing the "go" button when it was getting pushed anyway.
Your sensationalism of this non event is mind boggling considering you were quick to spout of your credentials of expertise.
-
Using that logic I could get hit by a meteor tomorrow on my way to Chicago. Does that mean I don't go?
Flipperk it would do you a great service to actually learn what a tower controller does, the scope of their responsibility and how they actually do their job. You are claiming knowledge and experience with something your words reveal you actually know nothing about. You have some great misconceptions about what ATC is/does, how they work and what they can actually do which is doing you a disservice.
The kid wasn't sitting at a scope at ZHU (that's the code for the Houston ARTCC) or the IAH TRACON sequencing and separating airplanes. He did nothing more than pushing the "go" button when it was getting pushed anyway.
Your sensationalism of this non event is mind boggling considering you were quick to spout of your credentials of expertise.
*sighs* Fine, ill take the high road. Maybe I really do not know the exact responsabilities of ATC...I never really have taken the time go in the tower at KEFD. I will definantly take a trip up there next time I go up.
...i probably just made an a**$ of myself... :lol
-
You've been doing that but I'm happy you'll take the opportunity to learn. Stay up in the cab for a while until things slow down for you. Look at how they do their job, watch them answer the shout line from IAH/ZHU for releases of traffic and the heads up inbound IFR traffic. See how the progress of a flight strip goes from clearance issued, to the tower, to the pile. See what tools they actually have right there to work with.
When you're done there if you can get a tour of the IAH TRACON or any approach facility that will allow you to shadow a controller for a while you'll learn much more about how to ask for what you want in a way that helps the controllers help you.
It will put a picture to the voice and I promise whatever you envision in your mind an ATC position to look like you're in for a learning experience.
-
You've been doing that but I'm happy you'll take the opportunity to learn. Stay up in the cab for a while until things slow down for you. Look at how they do their job, watch them answer the shout line from IAH/ZHU for releases of traffic and the heads up inbound IFR traffic. See how the progress of a flight strip goes from clearance issued, to the tower, to the pile. See what tools they actually have right there to work with.
When you're done there if you can get a tour of the IAH TRACON or any approach facility that will allow you to shadow a controller for a while you'll learn much more about how to ask for what you want in a way that helps the controllers help you.
It will put a picture to the voice and I promise whatever you envision in your mind an ATC position to look like you're in for a learning experience.
Will do... I will also report back on this as well when I get the chance. :salute Golfer
-
<-- doesnt have any clue about ATC or their jobs.... I'll say that from the start.......
however I was always under the impression (especially in light of all the air and airport related terrorists acts in the last decade) that there were federal laws in place governing exactly who was allowed in the tower
now dont get me wrong Im not suggesting a kid in the tower was in any way a terrorist act....... so dont get on your bash horses just yet for the sake of pretending to be tough guys
just simply saying...... and admittedly I am probably wrong apparently...... but I thought there were laws in place that should have prevented any unauthorized person from entering the tower
having said that...... if I am correct (probably not)....... but if I am....... then clearly this was breaking the law........
if not the law then are there rules in place at least? and if there are rules does this violate those rules?
in my mind its not really a matter of "blowing something out of proportion"...... its a case of did they violate any rules or laws?
if they did violate any rules or laws then they deserve to be punished for their actions........
if there are no rules or laws then why is this even newsworthy?
-
...i probably just made an a**$ of myself... :lol
Nah, you didn't make an bellybutton of yourself. I used to take my Private Requirements classes to the Tower and the RAPCON at the local air base (they didn't let us talk in the radio though). You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
The thing is that I get annoyed with the media that tries to squeeze drama out of an aviation related event in a manner that reflects poorly on the industry. It is the same mindset that requires any body of water that an airplane winds up in to be "shark infested". I was surprised to not hear that adjective in connection with the Hudson River when Sully landed there last year. The mindset that requires all significant aviation events to occur at "30,000 feet" even though that was not a normally authorized altitude prior to the implementation of Reduced Vertical Separation Minimums a while back. The same mindset that cannonizes a pilot for turning to avoid a school when the poor guy is just trying to find somewhere flat and clear to stick the airplane.
There is sufficient drama in aviation without the infusion of gratuitous dreck that is perpetrated on an ignorant public by the news outlets. I just see the situation we are discussing as of a piece with that.
-
I really do not get what all the bru-ha-ha is about. Just turn friendly collisions "off" when kids are in the tower. What could be simpler?
-
didnt read all the replies but anybody remembers the commercial plane that crashed because the pilot father let his son fly the airplane for a few seconds? I believe it happened in russia. there's somethings that you dont allow your kids to do. I wont let my kid use the 50 over head crane that I use. its safe but its not a toy. same for directing traffic. its funny but shouldnt be done.
semp
-
You know, you're right. I can easily see how letting a kid say "cleared for takeoff" after the tower controller has supervised the procedure to the point of getting the aircraft lined up on the centerline is EXACTLY like letting another kid (he was 15) be sole manipulator of the controls in an airliner full of people. It's almost eerie and I'm glad the tragedy was averted in this case.
-
didnt read all the replies but anybody remembers the commercial plane that crashed because the pilot father let his son fly the airplane for a few seconds? I believe it happened in russia. there's somethings that you dont allow your kids to do. I wont let my kid use the 50 over head crane that I use. its safe but its not a toy. same for directing traffic. its funny but shouldnt be done.
semp
You really should go and read the replies before rehashing the same kind of statements that have already been refuted. It was a non-event with zero chance for tragedy, end of story.
-
I'm really surprised by how many here think this is ok, the ATC broke the rules and has been suspended pending investigation. his supervisor likewise. end of story.
edit: btw I spoke to an ex-ATC who worked at JFK about this, he reckoned it was worth a few days suspension...
-
Doesn't a child (or any other non-job-related person or thing) present a potential distraction to the directing controller?
Wasn't the father on duty, actively directing traffic AND supervising his son at the same time?
The potential for distraction is increased when non-work-related tasks are added to the work environment is all I'm saying.
:bolt:
Regards,
Sun
-
Rules are rules. :aok
I don't like what the media has done with this but then I don't like what the media does at all, so that's no surprise. Whether this was a harmless event or not is beside the point. The bottom line is rules are in place for a reason. Anything can happen. I don't need to think up some ridiculous scenario as an example, because we all know: **** happens.
And I'm no expert by any means but I would hardly think that the Tower at JFK is a good place to supervise a kid.
-
Its not what did happen..its what could have...
fliperk, you still gonna go to the store in your car today? Cause alot of baaaaaaaaaad things could happen if you do that.
-
Whether this was a harmless event or not is beside the point.
Whether this was a harmless event or not is precisely the point. If there was any inherent risk in this or if it was even a wobbler, this thread would not exist.
-
If this were an actual honest to goodness breach of safety, security and all the hubub the media would have us believe I'd be the first to say it was a stupid thing to do.
I'm not saying that because it's just not the case. I'm a huge advocate of allowing kids and enthusiasts see what aviation professionals do on a daily basis. On more than a few occasions I'd overhear a young kid ask a flight attendant in their best polite voice if they could go see the cockpit. The FAs usually said let me ask though on occasion they would get snippy with the kid saying something about how due to security blah blah blah...
This got me out of the seat and into the forward galley in a blink of an eye. Bring the kid in, put him in the seat, take a picture and send him on his way. Their parents were happy, the kid got a great opportunity and he/she will remember that for the rest of their life. We were all that kid at one point and if we forget it then that's more a tragedy than any sensationalized breach of conduct.
I'm not even sure who this kid is. I ran into him one day at Frederick, MD back in early 2006 after getting lunch at the little restaurant there. He was there watching the airplanes with his mom while we were eating. I told the other pilot I'd catch up with him in a few and went outside. I asked him if he liked airplanes, did he know anything about them and he pointed out a couple different types. I told him he'd be perfect because I needed a hand with something and asked if he'd come with me to my airplane while looking at mom making sure it was okay. They both ended up coming out, took a few pictures and it made their day. If I was that kid I'd remember it forever and I'm confident he will too.
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/JuniorPilot.jpg)
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/JuniorCaptain.jpg)
I figured we were safe because I always have a backup in case things go wrong.
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/OttoPilot.jpg)
Otto on the glareshield made the line guys and passer-by pilots laugh. It's serious business but if it wasn't fun I and a whole lot of others wouldn't do it. Pull our collective heads out of our collective rear ends with the PC, the sensationalism and get back to common sense ya'll.
-
Its not what did happen..its what could have...
Do yourself a favor and turn Fox News off
-
Do yourself a favor and turn Fox News off
the same exact story was published on EVERY major news provider.......... ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, MSNBC, CNN, etc......
so basically your theory then is to stay sheltered from the outside world??
-
the same exact story was published on EVERY major news provider.......... ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, MSNBC, CNN, etc......
so basically your theory then is to stay sheltered from the outside world??
I think the theory is to use that thing inside yr head and to think rather then blindly accepting opinion as fact.
-
If this were an actual honest to goodness breach of safety, security and all the hubub the media would have us believe I'd be the first to say it was a stupid thing to do.
--snip--
Cute kid Golfer. He'll remember that till he gets Altzheimer's.
-
Notwithstanding my previous post, there's tons of other stuff I've seen in towers that are actual safety threats. JFK does seem a little busy to mess around like that, but I'm sure those controllers know better than anyone which times are okay to slow down a little bit & goof off and when the kids need to hit the stairs.
-
If this were an actual honest to goodness breach of safety, security and all the hubub the media would have us believe I'd be the first to say it was a stupid thing to do.
I'm not saying that because it's just not the case. I'm a huge advocate of allowing kids and enthusiasts see what aviation professionals do on a daily basis. On more than a few occasions I'd overhear a young kid ask a flight attendant in their best polite voice if they could go see the cockpit. The FAs usually said let me ask though on occasion they would get snippy with the kid saying something about how due to security blah blah blah...
This got me out of the seat and into the forward galley in a blink of an eye. Bring the kid in, put him in the seat, take a picture and send him on his way. Their parents were happy, the kid got a great opportunity and he/she will remember that for the rest of their life. We were all that kid at one point and if we forget it then that's more a tragedy than any sensationalized breach of conduct.
I'm not even sure who this kid is. I ran into him one day at Frederick, MD back in early 2006 after getting lunch at the little restaurant there. He was there watching the airplanes with his mom while we were eating. I told the other pilot I'd catch up with him in a few and went outside. I asked him if he liked airplanes, did he know anything about them and he pointed out a couple different types. I told him he'd be perfect because I needed a hand with something and asked if he'd come with me to my airplane while looking at mom making sure it was okay. They both ended up coming out, took a few pictures and it made their day. If I was that kid I'd remember it forever and I'm confident he will too.
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/JuniorPilot.jpg)
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/JuniorCaptain.jpg)
I figured we were safe because I always have a backup in case things go wrong.
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/OttoPilot.jpg)
Otto on the glareshield made the line guys and passer-by pilots laugh. It's serious business but if it wasn't fun I and a whole lot of others wouldn't do it. Pull our collective heads out of our collective rear ends with the PC, the sensationalism and get back to common sense ya'll.
Some parent let their kid near you? I feel sorry for the poor boy :rolleyes:
-
the same exact story was published on EVERY major news provider.......... ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, MSNBC, CNN, etc......
so basically your theory then is to stay sheltered from the outside world??
Here is the article by CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/03/03/air.traffic.child/index.html?iref=allsearch
Here is the article from CBS
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/03/earlyshow/main6261845.shtml?tag=mncol;lst;2
And now from ABC
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/boy-directs-air-traffic-jfk-airport-caught-tape/story?id=9995927
Fox was the only one to relate it to an actual accident that was not closely related to what happened here. It was actually the only news network to reference a crash.
Once upon a time Fox was a respectable news network that did a fair job when it came to representing the news, now they care more about ratings and fear mongering brings in ratings.
-
after reading your post it took me exactly 17 seconds to do a search and find this link.......... I shouldnt have to waste that kind of time just to contradict some personal bias you have ....... please pay very careful attention to the last paragraph from MSNBC...... youll notice it is word for word the exact same paragraph that has you in arms about FOX
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35683779/ns/travel-news (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35683779/ns/travel-news)
Once upon a time people could actually read and comprehend the news, now they care more about bashing a network.
edit: out of fairness if you do need assistance in finding the EXACT same paragraph on the rest of the networks let me know........ I read them all yesterday so I know they exist
-
This is just silly. If he gets fired, too me it just shows how silly the FAA is. 1 his dad was watching him. 2 looking at (admittedly rather outdated, circa 2000) JFK 7110.67G, clearance delivery give you all the climb information. (aka carneise, breezy point, etc.) So pilots should already have the turns and climbs ready to go in their FMC. The only thing that really has to be done, assuming their isn't a a slow pilot to get off the runway or something, is the rolling boundary call, which his dad probably has handled. The final thing here is the controller is covering 1, yes 1 runway. Its not like its 4 runways and N90 can't seperate traffic correctly and is giving visual seperation to everyone and their grandma, which leaves tower to sort out the mess. This is just the opinion of a CTI student, TWR after clearance delivery is the easiest positions. Basically all you need to know for the beginner is diverging headings or timed departures and releases. Radar is where the pulling your hair out happens. Terminal in particular, although enroute is no slouch one either.
-
Ok, consider this. Both the ATC and his super gets no disciplinary action against them and the story is panned by the media as 'harmless'. Then, another ATC decides to do something similar, then another and another...etc. When some ATC does something really boneheaded and a tragedy occurs, then what?
If this goes unpunished then they are opening a can of worms that could result in loss of life and confidence in the system. The established rules of conduct must be maintained and improved upon, when needed, in order to protect life, assets and public confidence.
I'm surprised that some of the real life pilots in this thread fail to recognise the gravity and consequences of failing to correct conduct like this. Sure it was harmless this time, but what is the cost of inaction.
-
And a week from now we hear this was an audio recording taken from FSX or other commercial aviation sim that use live traffic controllers. Hence everyone is relaxed and happy to hear a squeeker controlling traffic. :aok
-
Ok, consider this. Both the ATC and his super gets no disciplinary action against them and the story is panned by the media as 'harmless'. Then, another ATC decides to do something similar, then another and another...etc. When some ATC does something really boneheaded and a tragedy occurs, then what?
If this goes unpunished then they are opening a can of worms that could result in loss of life and confidence in the system. The established rules of conduct must be maintained and improved upon, when needed, in order to protect life, assets and public confidence.
I'm surprised that some of the real life pilots in this thread fail to recognise the gravity and consequences of failing to correct conduct like this. Sure it was harmless this time, but what is the cost of inaction.
And once again, we don't have any information pertaining to when the child was allowed to "distract" controllers. It could have been on the statistical low of traffic at the airport. As someone mentioned earlier, if the traffic picked up the child would have probably been asked to leave.
I understand what you're saying, and agree to an extent. Yet once again, the only information we have is there were two children who were allowed to talk on the frequency.
-
I'm surprised that some of the real life pilots in this thread fail to recognise the gravity and consequences of failing to correct conduct like this.
Think for a moment on why that might be.
-
And once again, we don't have any information pertaining to when the child was allowed to "distract" controllers. It could have been on the statistical low of traffic at the airport. As someone mentioned earlier, if the traffic picked up the child would have probably been asked to leave.
I understand what you're saying, and agree to an extent. Yet once again, the only information we have is there were two children who were allowed to talk on the frequency.
The FAA has already stated the Feb 17 (the 2nd incident) was about 7:30 PM............. I believe I read somewhere that the Feb 16 (the 1st incident) happened somewhere between 4:30-6:00
but Im not real sure there is ever a time at one of the busiest airports in the world that isnt busy........ they had originally said the kids were brought to work because they were off school due to snow....... schools must run pretty late in NY I guess
as for the whining about networks relating the other incident where a plane crashed....... I think that has everything to do with this story....... it was made as an example of what happens when controllers are distracted..... the very thing we are talking about
I personally have mixed feelings about the whole issue....... this is something that has happened probably thousands of times...... and I dont recall there ever being a case where something went wrong from this sort of thing......... I let my 10 yr old daughter drive my tractors all the time......... she has her own 4 wheeler which shes allowed to go riding with her friends........ and she has her own shotgun which she takes when we go hunting......... all of these things carry some risk if someone got distracted.......... so bring a kid to work isnt that far of a stretch
on the other hand this is a job that holds hundreds of lives in the balance at any given moment....... the guy isnt an accountant........ and while there were others around and a supervisor........ in the right set of circumstances this could have had a tragic ending........ nothing did go wrong....... but something could...... it seems the risks involved here far outweigh the reward...... not something I find favorable...... and I certainly hope theres no kids in the tower anytime Im on a plane
in the end it all boils down to what I said earlier....... were there any laws or rules broken.... the rest of the story should proceed accordingly
-
fliperk, you still gonna go to the store in your car today? Cause alot of baaaaaaaaaad things could happen if you do that.
ToeTag, i dropped the arguement awhile back ago
Besides, at least I am licensed to drive and will not be breaking any regulations by driving to the store
-
Some parent let their kid near you? I feel sorry for the poor boy :rolleyes:
I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but...
What's up with the completely stupid post 4440?
-
It's a sarcastic tongue in cheek comment from one friend/colleague to another.
Lighten up, Francis.
-
It's a sarcastic tongue in cheek comment from one friend/colleague to another.
Lighten up, FYB.
Oh... Woops, sorry to bother then. :o