Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Ardy123 on March 18, 2010, 04:59:47 PM
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There is a post stall trick that I have seen many 'top sticks' do where on the second merge they go perfectly vert, then they snap the plane such that its horizontal and inverted and take a snap shot. How are they 'snaping' the plane from pointing perfectly vert to a horizontal inverted position.
I tried to do it yesterday in the DA with Redd by giving left rudder and moving the stick to the lower left corner but it did not 'snap' in a controllable way such that I could manage a shot.
Thanks
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If you could post a film of the maneuver, that would help.
My guess (from doing vertical maneuvers myself) is that the pilot brings the plane just past vertical and then does some combination of popping flaps and power-off stall. Without knowing what the maneuver actually looks like, it's hard to tell. And those possibilities I mentioned are NOT controllable. They are however plan - able such that if you had a really good sense of space and prediction of your opponent, you might be able to get a snapshot.
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Not sure about snap stalls Ardy , don't know if they are reliable enough to count on , better off staying in control.
Maybe they are just rolling in the oppoosite direction of the turn they came out of (using rudder to get it rolling) close to the point of stall , and the net lag is making it look a bit unusual. Things can appear different to what they are due to the little bit of netlag. Sometimes when you roll with rudder it comes around pretty quickly, almost a snap (in the Hellcat anyway).
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Ardy because of perspective, and distance often what looks like a "snap" switch is really just a plain ol immelman or loop.
You'd need film from both sides in order to prove it however.
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There is a post on the Bf109 torque roll started by you, but someone posted a video of what I think your discrbing. It's the "famous" one that Agent360 posted on.
good luck,
Tailspin :salute
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There is a post stall trick that I have seen many 'top sticks' do where on the second merge they go perfectly vert, then they snap the plane such that its horizontal and inverted and take a snap shot. How are they 'snaping' the plane from pointing perfectly vert to a horizontal inverted position.
I tried to do it yesterday in the DA with Redd by giving left rudder and moving the stick to the lower left corner but it did not 'snap' in a controllable way such that I could manage a shot.
Thanks
Are you talking about what Grizz or SunsFan do? They both can put accurate shots on you from stall speeds it really is amazing. Suns told me once its just him using thottle work to work his nose around but I cant do it.
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There is a post on the Bf109 torque roll started by you, but someone posted a video of what I think your discrbing. It's the "famous" one that Agent360 posted on.
good luck,
Tailspin :salute
yeah, I can do torque rolls all day, but I can't get the nose 'in position' for a shot quick enough nor do I have enough inverted horizontal yaw control to do the minor corrections to make the shot line up. I wish I saved the fight I did with Redd, because it illustrated the problem with the torque roll, I got my nose over, slid to the left about 90ish degrees (as anticipated), but then did not have enough e or enough lateral authority to make the snapshot, and my nose just fell under his plane & I was forced to do other moves from there.
Are you talking about what Grizz or SunsFan do? They both can put accurate shots on you from stall speeds it really is amazing. Suns told me once its just him using thottle work to work his nose around but I cant do it.
exactly!
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Are you talking about what Grizz or SunsFan do? They both can put accurate shots on you from stall speeds it really is amazing. Suns told me once its just him using thottle work to work his nose around but I cant do it.
Working throttle helps control the torque as you're coming around. Letting off and putting throttle back on according to your attitude helps stabilize the plane/turn the plane enough for a shot as you're stalling. Adding rudder also helps to control it. Get used to that torque in stalls, as once you know how much it will roll you will be able to determine how much throttle you put on or off to get the shot.
Edit: One anology to help understand what the throttle work is doing is imagine a P38 on the top of a stall. Cut engine 1, and you hammerhead left, cut eng. 2 vice versa. By cutting throttle with a 109, it is much easier to roll right, while adding throttle forces it to go left. By "working your throttle" you can make a 109 or anyother plane for that matter come out of a stall opposite its torque.
Expl.http://www.mediafire.com/?jyizmkzzrwo (http://www.mediafire.com/?jyizmkzzrwo)
Hope this helped some. :salute
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I stick my nose up vertical a lot but I don't ever 'snap' it. When I get it straight vertical in the situation you describe, I am slowing down quicker than you, and you are usually in some sort of a spiral climb around me. Picture a tether ball spiraling up the post. I'm the post and you are the tether ball spiraling around me. When the fight develops like this, my goal is to spin to the point where you will cross in my guns at the right time. To counter this you want to get wider as I draw in near guns. Kappa has the best spiral climb in the game doing this and I have a very hard time getting guns on him in this setup. Hope this helps.
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sounds like half a "hammerhead" to me - usually performed just above stall speed - (which might make it an uncompleted immelman??..immelman to me tho involves more of a powered loop than a straight vertical manauver followed by an attitude/directional change at stall point).
a film would be great - sounds interesting - i can always learn something new
...cheers eh! :D
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I stick my nose up vertical a lot but I don't ever 'snap' it. When I get it straight vertical in the situation you describe, I am slowing down quicker than you, and you are usually in some sort of a spiral climb around me.
yes, I do that because I am trying to do 2 things... 1) reduce my vert forward motion because I see that you are slowing down, 2) to make it hard for you to just point you nose up and take the shot. So I'm doing the turn to tight I take it?
I am slowing down quicker than you,
How? just by cutting throttle? because if you give rudder, your nose wont be perfectly vert anymore and you wont get the shot, just rolling it should burn less e than me spiral climbing...
Thanks
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I think I know what Ardy is talking about. It does kind of work like a hammerhead but it seems to be executed much much faster. In a hammerhead you kind of roll on your side from pointing up to pointing down.....
In this maneuver it seems like the plane almost immediately stops and then spins almost like a top(from its center of balance) and very fast; giving it a snap-spin-reversal effect. I can't figure out how to do it either (in F4U). I can reverse w/ rudder but it's much slower than what I think Ardy is talking about. I have seen mustangs do it and a couple other planes as well. I wouldn't think the mustang would have that kind of ability but.....I have the holes in my _ _ _ to prove it.
I'd like to know how to do it too, not so much for an immediate shot but for the quick reversal. BigRat has been a BigHelp (LOL) with my reversals but I never asked about this maneuver.
I think/hope i'm correct in my assumption.
:salute
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Grizz, thats exactly what I was talking about and that description really helps me understand what your doing. I just have a hard time controlling the plane for the shots you can make there :salute
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How? just by cutting throttle? because if you give rudder, your nose wont be perfectly vert anymore and you wont get the shot, just rolling it should burn less e than me spiral climbing...
Thanks
Because the nose of my plane is pointed upward at a steeper angle. Say I'm pointed upward at 85 degrees or so and you are spiraling around at 60 degrees. I am maintaining my E just as good yet I am staying 'inside' your turns by being slower. It's hard to dive too far into detail when we don't have an exact example to go over. In a nutshell, whoever gets their nose up higher will slow down quicker.
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I think what you're describing is something like this: http://www.mediafire.com/?2zjzwd4t10w
Nath could do some crazy stuff like that and usually hit.
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I think what you're describing is something like this: http://www.mediafire.com/?2zjzwd4t10w
Nath could do some crazy stuff like that and usually hit.
No not quite, thats just a botched torque roll, the recovery from the stall could have been better and with more control, the pilot held the right rudder too long and didn't have enough vert separation. What I was talking about was when both planes are almost side by side & pointed straight up, and one snaps it over flat, horizontal inverted, and makes the shot.
I know Grizz has done it to me many times, so have a few others...
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No not quite, thats just a botched torque roll, the recovery from the stall could have been better and with more control, the pilot held the right rudder too long and didn't have enough vert separation. What I was talking about was when both planes are almost side by side & pointed straight up, and one snaps it over flat, horizontal inverted, and makes the shot.
I know Grizz has done it to me many times, so have a few others...
Sounds like he is simply slower than you and thus is able to get nose on you easier.
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I know what your talking about here, I can honestly say when I perform this in a fight its only because of the situation I am relative to the opponent, and its the only way the plane will go anyway to get a brief gun solution.
Its a combo of engine torque after maxing your climb as the torque starts to pull your plane left you pull slighty back on the stick and a jab of rudder, the plane snaps quickly left, back off the throttle and slight opposite rudder if needed to check your roll (if your doing it perfectly you shouldn't need opposite rudder) Then use slight throttle and gravity to let your nose drop to your opponent.
I also know guys who use it in rolling scissors, choosing to take the vert and snap roll to turn for the down stroke rather than going up and around like a normal scissor. But again thats only because they are starting to gradually lose the standard rolling scissors fight, if you screw it up you'll be in a lot of trouble.
:salute
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ok, I think I get it... Its similar to when you are going up and at around 100 mph you slip some left rudder and pull back and the plane rolls over and slips 90 degrees?
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Ardy,
The move u describe is a POWER ON STALL in the vert.
It IS NOT a hammer head or wing over. Neither of these use a power on stall.
The trick is to coax the plane over at the last second. This is where the TORQUE ROLL comes into play. Without the tork it wouldnt be possible to make the plane turn.
At the plane goes vert its full right rudder with full power to make the plane stop going up...as the plane comes to power on stall and rolls left its off throttle and let the plane yaw (slip) off its center to left...the nose drops strait down like a rock....now you feather the engine to control the nose.
Once the nose takes the no airspeed drop it will start to swing around with force. You have to use the throttle to control where the nose goes.
I simple drill to explain this is:
Fly level at about 250 ish
Pull up to about 80 deg vert (not pure vert..ie 90 deg)
Set you auto climb to this angle and take your hands off the stick.
Allow the plane to come to power on stall at that angle
Let it drop and watch what the plane does in the recovery.
You will notcie that if you start the drill facing north the plane will nose over, dive, roll and recover going NORTH again.
It will do this over and over without loosing altitude.
After you have observed this for about 10 times, then take control of the plane at the top when it drops, use the throttle to see how you can MAKE the nose point where you want it to.
A few timesdoing this and it will become quite clear what is happening.
There is no SNAP in this move.
Its a simple power on stall, letting the nose drop hard and feathering the engine and some rudder to get the shot.
The other part is TIMING this with your enemy. Grizz commented on the timing about the spiral which is how you lead them into it so that you can shoot without getting shot.
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Here are a few narrated films
It is hard to replicate this move without a real con following because your angle of attack will depend on the bandit.
But the actual vert reverse is the same.
Hope this helps
power on stall (http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/agent_pwr_on_stall.ahf)
flat turn to vert power on stall (http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/agent_flat_to_vert.ahf)
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Agent ty, I get it.. thats just like the instructions for discovering the power on and power off stall from the 109 torque rolls thread.
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Agent ty, I get it.. thats just like the instructions for discovering the power on and power off stall from the 109 torque rolls thread.
Yes it is.
Is this what you were talking about? Did I show it correctly or is what I showed something youv'e done already?
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ok, I think I get it... Its similar to when you are going up and at around 100 mph you slip some left rudder and pull back and the plane rolls over and slips 90 degrees?
Yes thats it, its the same as doing a snap roll to left in a 109 in a flat turn its just in the vertical, if you go to the external views f4 you can understand it better. I started off doing it this way in TA using flat turns looking f4 view pulling hard back on the stick and near the stall a small bit of rudder to snap the plane, once I got used to the hand co-ordination I practice doing it with internal views looking behind me tracking a plane and the same with the vert move.
I know it may seem lame to some but I think f4 its a good way to build up the co-ordination and understanding of how a manoeuvre looks from behind and see how quickly you can snap it (it should be instantaneous)
I stick my nose up vertical a lot but I don't ever 'snap' it. When I get it straight vertical in the situation you describe, I am slowing down quicker than you, and you are usually in some sort of a spiral climb around me. Picture a tether ball spiraling up the post. I'm the post and you are the tether ball spiraling around me. When the fight develops like this, my goal is to spin to the point where you will cross in my guns at the right time. To counter this you want to get wider as I draw in near guns. Kappa has the best spiral climb in the game doing this and I have a very hard time getting guns on him in this setup. Hope this helps.
Here are 2 fights from 5 or 6 it took me about 4 deaths to figure out what Grizz was doing and use a counter, I think this is similar to what hes described above usually by the time you spot this situation developing, its much too late and Grizz is an excellent shot and won't miss. The first film is me pulling to hard for angles I get stuck and theres nowhere for me to go, when the shooting opportunity arrives for Grizz I'm a sitting duck with no E to escape.
Second I keep my speed up and use a lot of rolls to gradually gain angles and keep e instead of just pulling straight for them, when the time comes for a crossing snapshot opportunity I still have enough E to get past his guns to avoid them.
http://www.4shared.com/file/245970858/c4f109dc/grizz.html (http://www.4shared.com/file/245970858/c4f109dc/grizz.html)
http://www.4shared.com/file/245971427/aaa91c8b/grizz1.html (http://www.4shared.com/file/245971427/aaa91c8b/grizz1.html)
I don't think this exactly what happened but the principle of why you die is the same, I'm digging through my films to look for good snap rolls but theres hundreds of them I really wished I'd labeled them correctly now some of my descriptions are quite cryptic :lol
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Yes it is.
Is this what you were talking about? Did I show it correctly or is what I showed something youv'e done already?
I guess I need to get in some good fights in the da again, and make sure I get them on film..
Second I keep my speed up and use a lot of rolls to gradually gain angles and keep e instead of just pulling straight for them, when the time comes for a crossing snapshot opportunity I still have enough E to get past his guns to avoid them.
Awesome rolling scissors, you were lucky at 0:30 had Girzz's nose been a tad higher, he would have had the shot. If you look carefully at the scissors, you will see Grizz just barely holding on at 60 mph at the top of some of the rolls. I guess the trick is keep the speed up, to prevent Grizz from having enough time to setup the shot.
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Awesome rolling scissors, you were lucky at 0:30 had Girzz's nose been a tad higher, he would have had the shot. If you look carefully at the scissors, you will see Grizz just barely holding on at 60 mph at the top of some of the rolls. I guess the trick is keep the speed up, to prevent Grizz from having enough time to setup the shot.
If I had reduced throttle before that like I usually do for a better turn your right he would have nailed me as we crossed over. The trick is probably realizing whats happening at an early stage in the fight, like I said I had 4-5 fights to adapt to it in a 1 off encounter in the MA I wouldn't have realised what had happened until its was too late. I've never noticed the speed drop well spotted ;) At the time all I could remember was that it didn't look right :lol and I'd wait until I seen something that did look right.
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Agent360,
I think your right, its just a very well controlled power on stall. I think it looks like a snap because of the 'e' discrepancy between the two planes. I guess I need to go to the TA or offline and try and discover/practice more acms that exploit the stall characteristics... I have pretty much only used them for hammerheads to the left and right.
In the video you posted where you go up, then stall followed by a land... I noticed something that I have seen myself do before unintentionally. At 1:43 after your plane inverts, it yaws to the left. I assume controlling this is via the throttle? or is it because you were holding rudder to counter the torque, then you backed off the throttle?
The slow speed yaw could be used for all kinds of crazy snap shots on people...
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ardy check your pms.