Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: JunkyII on March 22, 2010, 06:35:47 PM
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Me and Grizz had a great fight last night in the DA.....G14 vs F6F. It shouldnt have lasted that long but I guess I got lucky and hit his 30 :D
But afterwards Grizz asked me a question about when I was using my flaps. I was retracting them when my nose was down(to gain E I think) then putting them out when my nose was above the horizon. He said he was doing the opposite of that. Dropping flaps when his nose was down to cut that corner a bit better, then retracting them to gain more alt.
The fight wasnt going anywhere, my fingers ended up getting tired and I tried to do something but yea it didnt work. Which is correct? Do different planes require different flap tactics to gain an advantage? The 2 aircraft do have completely different types of fighting styles to them... :salute
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I'd say it depends entirely on E-state and what you want to do. If your nose is "up" it doesn't necessarily mean "pop flaps" -- too many factors, including the increased drag of going uphill with flaps down.
Then again, I'm no "flap expert"...
Personally I think this game relies too much on flaps, and over-models them to a large degree.
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JunkyII your a better stick than me but what I do is the following...
IF I need to turn sharp, I drop flaps.
If I need to preserve 'e' I pull in flaps.
So, in a rolling scissors, on the way down I begin to drop my flaps so that they are deployed when I need to turn back up again. Then once my nose is pointed up, I pull them in again.
Also, at the top, when doing a power on stall and the nose drops, flaps will make your nose less vertical ( as much as 30 degrees), so if you want to tighten up your rolling scissors, pull in flaps at the top, or at least I do.. to maximize the 'egg' shape.
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Depends on the fight. If it's a flat turning fight, deploy flaps when needed to shorten the turn and then retract them as soon as you don't need them anymore to preserve energy. In a vertical fight, flaps down going up and as you're going over the top and then flaps up as you're going down to regain your E. One thing you have to keep in mind is that it isn't always necessary to drop flaps to full or to fully raise them either. There are some vertical fights where dropping a few notches of flaps as you're going up and over maybe raising them a notch or two as you're coming back down and not fully retracting them. High Yo-Yo fights is an example. Basically, it depends on the situation at hand.
ack-ack
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Sometimes when i deploy flaps to "get over the top" in my 190 I'll start down towards the vertical - increasing speed - and going to put my flaps up again only to find they have gone up already - (automatically??) - as I gained speed - anyone else had this happen? ......strange....
....as I reached the max deployment speed and pass it i had assumed there would be some sort of warning sound after which your flaps would be damaged if you did not bring them up....
....cheers eh! :D
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In a vertical fight, flaps down going up and as you're going over the top and then flaps up as you're going down to regain your E.
The sequence I use is something like... as I get close to the apex of vert, I put my flaps up and as I'm coming back nose down, just as I am getting my speed back, I deploy them to help get my nose back up again.
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Ive always figured im gunna turn better with more notchs of flaps out.....seems i need to work on it a bit to preserve my E in fights :salute
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Ive always figured im gunna turn better with more notchs of flaps out.....seems i need to work on it a bit to preserve my E in fights :salute
Even in planes like the P-38 that are flap dependent, it's not always the best to deploy more than what you need for the situation at hand. I've seen some guys that I've fought against where immediately as they start turning, it's full flaps and that's the worst thing to do depending on the situation. Usually, I'm deploying 2-3 notches in a normal turn fight but I'm retracting them immediately as I no longer need them so I don't burn energy needlessly. Nor do I retract the flaps all the way immediately either, if I'm in a turn fight and I've got two notches already deployed and I need a 3rd, I'll lower it one more and as soon as I don't need the 3rd notch, I'll retract it and maintain 2 notches deployed and then raise the flaps as necessary or deploy them again.
If you ever see any of my films where I'm using flaps, you'll see the flaps almost in constant motion, especially if it's a vertical angles fight. That is also usually the only kind of fights were I will deploy more than 3 notches, frequently dancing between full flaps and 3/4s, especially around the stall.
ack-ack
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Ack-Ack gave a great reply, it is all dependent on the situation which is forever changing dynamically.....
here is a Excellent Post by Badboy
Don't Get In a Flap
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,271266.0.html
Grizz seems to possibly be controlling his speed to be able to use(lower) the flaps while going down building speed yet still able to deploy them to bring his nose UP..... if it works for ya then it works...... but no one has mentioned exactly how many notches of flaps, whether it is just 1 notch, 2 or more notches, or all notches out / in etc...... or at what speeds these vertical up/down manuevering is happening at.....
Ardy like to see film of one of your "Rolling Scissors pulling in flaps to get over the top" moves that just don't seem right
Krusty, since these latest few patches , my personal opinion of course, the wonder Flaps , are not so wonderful anymore......... P40, P51, F6f & F4U's seem to have lost a lil bit of umphh..... in the Flap Useage
edit: Ack-Ack posted another Good reply while I was typing :aok
hope this helps.....
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I'm not an expert when it comes to flaps, and I under value its importance probably. I try to do what feels right based off if I want to be picking up speed or cutting speed/angles.
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Ardy like to see film of one of your "Rolling Scissors pulling in flaps to get over the top" moves that just don't seem right
I don't have a fight on film but I went into the TA and did two stall tests that hopefully exemplify what I'm talking about. In the video the first time I do a stall with no flaps, the second time with flaps. You will notice that the second time, the plane recovers with the nose pointed down at about a 45 degree angle, instead of the nose being at a 90 degree angle.
If this was a scissors fight where I'm trying to bleed the other guy out of e by making each vertical turn slightly larger than the last, while also forcing or preventing an overshoot, I want the 'top' part of the scissors to be as tight as possible and the downward and upward parts of the rolling scissors to be a steep as possible to reduce my 'forward' motion as much as possible (aka the vector that the barrel roll is around). Also, by not using flaps at the top, I have less drag going up, so I am able to climb just a little bit longer than if I had my flaps deployed.
If I were to have my flaps out at the top in this kind of fight, I would have to correct for the nose dropping at a 45 degree angle by pushing my stick down, making my motions less smooth.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/jmdmt0uftom/test_example.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/jmdmt0uftom/test_example.ahf)
Also, as a side note, you don't always have to do a barrel roll in a scissors, as Sunsfan & Grizz have pointed out in another posts, there are several other moves that can be done such as a hammer head in the opposite direction of the forward vector of the scissors or a move some call the 'cobra' where you point your nose straight up and hold it there, and unlike my films, you make the plane stall while keeping the wings from rolling. This can be done by giving rudder (and tons of practice) to keep one wing tip from stalling before the other wing tip.
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All this messing with flaps is more psychological than anything else. Research show that exactly 96.56% of the fights you deployed flaps in and won, you would have won without touching the flaps at all. Another 3.41% you would have won with just putting out the flaps and not retracting them until the fight was over. The final 0.03% are uncertain.
I switch fuel tanks during the fight instead: when I dive I use the main tank and when climbing I use the aux. Since in a P47 the aux tank is farther back, it seem to improve the fuel flow.
Seriously, if you pull on the stick, the plane buffets and you need to hang in there for just a little longer, pull out flaps. Otherwise don't touch them. Waste you brain power and attention on actual ACM, SA and tactics. This is all there is to it.
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....as I reached the max deployment speed and pass it i had assumed there would be some sort of warning sound after which your flaps would be damaged if you did not bring them up....
Unfortunately no, we instead of the hand holding auto-retracting flap system that's never going to be changed.
ack-ack
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All this messing with flaps is more psychological than anything else. Research show that exactly 96.56% of the fights you deployed flaps in and won, you would have won without touching the flaps at all. Another 3.41% you would have won with just putting out the flaps and not retracting them until the fight was over. The final 0.03% are uncertain.
I switch fuel tanks during the fight instead: when I dive I use the main tank and when climbing I use the aux. Since in a P47 the aux tank is farther back, it seem to improve the fuel flow.
Seriously, if you pull on the stick, the plane buffets and you need to hang in there for just a little longer, pull out flaps. Otherwise don't touch them. Waste you brain power and attention on actual ACM, SA and tactics. This is all there is to it.
Sorry but where are you getting these numbers...you sound too sure.
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i do the same thing junky does, pull em in when goin down, pop em out to get my nose over the top and pointed back down quickly... guess I never really learned which is right :bolt:
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Me and Grizz had a great fight last night in the DA.....G14 vs F6F. It shouldnt have lasted that long but I guess I got lucky and hit his 30 :D
But afterwards Grizz asked me a question about when I was using my flaps. I was retracting them when my nose was down(to gain E I think) then putting them out when my nose was above the horizon. He said he was doing the opposite of that. Dropping flaps when his nose was down to cut that corner a bit better, then retracting them to gain more alt.
The fight wasnt going anywhere, my fingers ended up getting tired and I tried to do something but yea it didnt work. Which is correct? Do different planes require different flap tactics to gain an advantage? The 2 aircraft do have completely different types of fighting styles to them... :salute
i hate grizz in that dam 109.......he never seems to miss. :rofl :aok :cheers:
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Sorry but where are you getting these numbers...you sound too sure.
Of course I am sure, I made them up myself. No help from anyone, so I take full credit.
My point was that some player obsess so much about the usage of flaps that they do not notice it hardly make any difference what you do with them. Yes, yes, one can measure the effect and some actually did, but almost all fights that you won would have been won no matter what you did with the flaps. New players hear so much about flaps like: "F4u/P38 is a great plane once you learn how to use flaps... bla bla" that they get the impression that they are really important. Rubbish. For them, the attention that they give the flaps with the in/out/in/out or wondering "should I use 5 or 6 notches? do I feel lucky, punk?" only makes them fly worse, but feel very sophisticated pressing a lot of buttons. In the rare cases where flaps do really make a difference it doesn't matter of you used 3 or 4 notches and REALLY doesn't matter if you just pulled them and left them out or do the in/out/in/out sequence.
This thread is clear evidence that it makes so little difference that there is no clear answer should you pull them in or out when pulling up in scissors. My clear answer is do whatever, then leave them alone and concentrate of SA and precision flying. Geometry cheat FTW.
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Of course I am sure, I made them up myself. No help from anyone, so I take full credit.
My point was that some player obsess so much about the usage of flaps that they do not notice it hardly make any difference what you do with them. Yes, yes, one can measure the effect and some actually did, but almost all fights that you won would have been won no matter what you did with the flaps. .
You are incorrect.
ack-ack
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With the only flaps usage i never turned better then more skilled pilots.
So i think that there is some other stuff to considerer, something like badboy explained and something else ...
:salute
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So i think that there is some other stuff to considerer
Aircraft combat maneuvering. :lol
I think correct flap usage is lower on the totem poll as far as importance goes but it will play a factor if you get into a deadlock fight. For example, an endless looping battle. That's what me and junky found ourselves in in a peculiar matchup G14 vs F6F.
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Well, they're just a tool. They don't do anything magical, but their use at the right time can make an enormous difference on some planes. Less so in others.
I've been getting my head wrapped around the F4U-1A, and at first I couldn't see the big deal about the flaps, where everybody raved about them. I prefer to keep that plane fast anyways for the most part. Then the other night I wound up making a bad move and getting into a turnfight with a spit of some kind, Co-E, on the deck starting at 130-150mph. I dropped a couple or 3 notches of flaps as the spit started into a series of straight loops. I don't know why either, but it seemed to make him happy. We weren't deviating at all, just straight (well as close to straight as a couple mediocre pile-its can fly them in here) vertical loops.
It just so happened I was low on fuel. Not sure how low, but probably below 1/4 tank on the main, with my wing tanks burned down to 1/4 each. In that series of loops under WEP, I was riding the stall horn pretty much all the way around once my nose got above the horizon, but I was constantly gaining on the guy. They let me get over the top, and shortened my turning radius at the bottom. 2 1/2 loops or so later, I pulled lead and killed him. This is with dead straight, nose to tail, me running on WEP with 2 or 3 notches of flaps. It felt like I could continue doing that maneuver until WEP ran out, I wasn't gradually slowing down.
I did an off-the-cuff couple of tests later in the evening, with more fuel, and couldn't get the same result with that maneuver. It seems to me it was the fuel weight that made the difference. In my testing I'd stall out on the way up on the second loop.
I've also had plenty of situations where a guy was trying to force the overshoot and my flaps allowed me to stay behind him by slowing me down.
They're not even remotely close to necessary, but I do believe that situationally, and between a pair of pilots of equal skill (whether they be top-shelf or mediocre guys that are still trying to use ACM) their proper use can make a difference.
Wiley.
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Of course I am sure, I made them up myself. No help from anyone, so I take full credit.
My point was that some player obsess so much about the usage of flaps that they do not notice it hardly make any difference what you do with them. Yes, yes, one can measure the effect and some actually did, but almost all fights that you won would have been won no matter what you did with the flaps. New players hear so much about flaps like: "F4u/P38 is a great plane once you learn how to use flaps... bla bla" that they get the impression that they are really important. Rubbish. For them, the attention that they give the flaps with the in/out/in/out or wondering "should I use 5 or 6 notches? do I feel lucky, punk?" only makes them fly worse, but feel very sophisticated pressing a lot of buttons. In the rare cases where flaps do really make a difference it doesn't matter of you used 3 or 4 notches and REALLY doesn't matter if you just pulled them and left them out or do the in/out/in/out sequence.
This thread is clear evidence that it makes so little difference that there is no clear answer should you pull them in or out when pulling up in scissors. My clear answer is do whatever, then leave them alone and concentrate of SA and precision flying. Geometry cheat FTW.
I'll agree and disagree.
For a beginner or novice you are correct. They should be worried more with BFM, ACM and SA and forget about things like throttle, flaps and rudder until they have that part down.
Once they do however, then those other elements can make a difference in a fight. I think of flap useage in terms of "the moment" that I need to bring the nose around quicker, be that in a flat turn, going over the top or any other position that I might be in, realizing that any use of flaps comes at a reduction in E state. So what defines "the moment"? It could be an opportunity to align a shot, a need to escape an opponent's shot or the need to avoid an inverted stall among other things.
The common wisdom of using flaps coming over the top is justified as, in most cases, you have climbed to retain E and are coming over at low speed. The use of flaps to get the nose pointed back down comes at little additional loss of E in this case as your options are to continue without flaps, burning E to get over or burn E using flaps to get the nose over faster and begin to regain E sooner.
As to the use of multiple flap stages, again, it depends on how fast I need the nose to come around and how much E I'm willing to give up to make that happen. At extremely low speeds that extra notch of flaps might be the one that wins it for you or it might just be the one that makes you unstable and ultimately looses the fight for you. At corner speeds a quick deployment and retraction can be hugely beneficial in gaining angles.
And all of that depends on the plane you're flying. For instance flap use in most American fighters helps while in most British fighters it's a detriment.
I don't think there's any hard and fast rules. Flap use is a very dynamic situation that can only be learned by trial and error for the plane you fly but used properly they can help a lot.
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Of course I am sure, I made them up myself. No help from anyone, so I take full credit.
My point was that some player obsess so much about the usage of flaps that they do not notice it hardly make any difference what you do with them. Yes, yes, one can measure the effect and some actually did, but almost all fights that you won would have been won no matter what you did with the flaps. New players hear so much about flaps like: "F4u/P38 is a great plane once you learn how to use flaps... bla bla" that they get the impression that they are really important. Rubbish. For them, the attention that they give the flaps with the in/out/in/out or wondering "should I use 5 or 6 notches? do I feel lucky, punk?" only makes them fly worse, but feel very sophisticated pressing a lot of buttons. In the rare cases where flaps do really make a difference it doesn't matter of you used 3 or 4 notches and REALLY doesn't matter if you just pulled them and left them out or do the in/out/in/out sequence.
This thread is clear evidence that it makes so little difference that there is no clear answer should you pull them in or out when pulling up in scissors. My clear answer is do whatever, then leave them alone and concentrate of SA and precision flying. Geometry cheat FTW.
I think your thinking about more of a MA fight where almost everything is E. Im talking what I call "knife fights" 1v1s where its anyones ball game for a bit till something makes better use of say flaps/throttle to get that little extra angle or E on his enemy :salute
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I think your thinking about more of a MA fight where almost everything is E. Im talking what I call "knife fights" 1v1s where its anyones ball game for a bit till something makes better use of say flaps/throttle to get that little extra angle or E on his enemy :salute
True. But even in a duel, there is not much point in fiddling with the flaps. Either they come out and stay out, or they don't. I didn't say they are useless, but putting them out and in is a risky business. It is ill advised to be on the edge of stall when the flaps retract: the maximum allowed AoA drops and you are suddenly thrown into the stall. If you extend them in a nose low attitude you may be able to increase AoA for a moment, but then the auto-retract may suddenly hit and again you are thrown into a stall.
In dead-lock situations flaps can make the difference. BUT:
a) jerking the flaps will not make a difference vs. just leaving them out.
b) I avoid symmetrical fights at any cost. I prefer to start the fight in a disadvantage rather then mirroring each other's actions and getting right into a looping or circling contest.
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True. But even in a duel, there is not much point in fiddling with the flaps. Either they come out and stay out, or they don't. I didn't say they are useless, but putting them out and in is a risky business. It is ill advised to be on the edge of stall when the flaps retract: the maximum allowed AoA drops and you are suddenly thrown into the stall. If you extend them in a nose low attitude you may be able to increase AoA for a moment, but then the auto-retract may suddenly hit and again you are thrown into a stall.
In dead-lock situations flaps can make the difference. BUT:
a) jerking the flaps will not make a difference vs. just leaving them out.
b) I avoid symmetrical fights at any cost. I prefer to start the fight in a disadvantage rather then mirroring each other's actions and getting right into a looping or circling contest.
Same I hate circles......I never can get around on people, I was hoping maybe better flap tactics could help me get the upper hand :salute
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Not that I'm a big flap user....I find....Most American flaps are very useful at mid to high ranges (except for the F6F and FM2 which can take it to the lower speeds and keep in the fight..those things are just crazy).....German planes it is the mid to low speed ranges (low speed, torque and flaps make the 109 amazing to watch in the right hands) and the other planes sets are neither here nor there...sure they help but not to the same degree...and in some planes it is down right disastrous to get flaps out.....It all comes down to your knowledge of the plane too......That's my take on flaps.....that is all.
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except for the F6F and FM2..those things are just crazy
In what way? I got into a fight in an F6F a few days ago against a D Pony and was using flaps consistantly.
Of course he had the speed advantage and was able to break off whenever he wanted. I was also carrying 6 rockets because I wasn't going to let a little fight force me to dump my remaining ord.
Flaps were very useful. They come out around 250 mph.
Finally, in a desperate move to get the guy before he broke off again I dumped another notch at stall speed, wobbled and as I was recovering I got a few parts blown off. After that I couldn't really fly very well and that ended it.
It was a good, long, fun one-on-one though regardless of the outcome.
I've got to learn to dump the ords. Too often I'm fighting with full fuel and ords attached but I guess it adds to the challenge.
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That is the thing..the pony could turn with you to a point then had to break off to get back the speed to come back and continue to turn fight you (I'm presuming he/she was turning with you)...the F6 and F4 are able to stay and keep turning to an advantage at the lower speeds and as you mentioned with rockets ...that is what I was meaning by they are crazy... The pony is a very capable turn fighter.
That is what I have noticed with the fights I have had with the F6 and F4...I can not fly them well and half the stuff that some guys pull off in them is wicked..and with the armour they are a force unto them selves.
I re-read my other post and edited
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Not that I'm a big flap user....I find....Most American flaps are very useful at mid to high ranges (except for the F6F and FM2..those things are just crazy).....German planes it is the mid to low speed ranges (low speed, torque and flaps make the 109 amazing to watch in the right hands) and the other planes sets are neither here nor there...sure they help but not to the same degree...and in some planes it is down right disastrous to get flaps out.....It all comes down to your knowledge of the plane too......That's my take on flaps.....that is all.
I agree for the most part, but American rides all have ubber flaps. Hog having the ubberest of all, Ponys both have pretty good flaps that can help you get away from a higher con same with the jugs...all deploy flaps at higher speeds. The 38 in my opinion is alot like the 109s once flaps are out and someone who knows how to fly it is in control.....its a tough bird to crack.
Americans always taking the easy way out :D
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Hey gents. I think flaps on every plane do the same thing. Flaps essentially increase the wing size creating more lift.
Advantage- Planes can fly slower and not stall with flaps.
Advantage- You can slow rapidly or increase descent rate without picking up speed.
Advantage- Due to increased lift, stall speed is decreased so planes can pull higher g's and not have an accelerated stall.
Advantage- When landing, use of flaps allows a plane to land with a slightly lower nose angle affording better visibility.
Disadvantage- Drag is increased because of extra lift so planes need more power to keep speed up if you wanted to keep altitude. In the game some aircraft are more disadvantaged than others because of power to weight ratio.
I'm always tapping my flaps buttons..in, out, in, out.. Makes me feel more sophisticated and my wife thinks I'm typing some important work rather than playing some game.
:joystick:
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Thanks for the bump Strong10, reminded me of some tests I did while dueling ardy123 in BF109G14s.
At first I started dueling just normally the way I would fly. After a couple rounds I decided to not deploy flaps at all. I saved more E in the fights but he was getting around on me and missed several key shots, after he started to get the upper hand in a rolling scissors I decided I couldnt let Ardy's punkarse win :D I started using flaps and a bit of cross controlling(something I think is more important then others may think) and brought it around for a kill shot.
So as of now, Flaps must be used in a G14 vs G14 fight to gain the upper hand :salute
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Flaps essentially increase the wing size creating more lift.
Don't know what planes you are flying, but the planes that I fly the most (FM2 / F6F) ... the flaps do not increase the wing size ... they only change the shape of the wing which changes/increases the lift vector.
I use flaps whenever I deem them necessary ... going up or down ... it all depends upon the situation at hand.
I will use flaps in a spiral climb if needed.
At the top of a zoom, instead of dropping back down because the opponent isn't quite "roped" I will pop flaps, level out and float there a bit watching to see if he does stall out and then drop on him pulling flaps back in.
I will pop flaps out nose down (like Grizz) to pull the nose around or into my opponent quicker and once I like where I am at ... I pull them back in.
Once you get use to a plane and how it performs with flaps ... using them becomes second nature and you really don't even think about it anymore ... you just do it.
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Don't know what planes you are flying, but the planes that I fly the most (FM2 / F6F) ... the flaps do not increase the wing size ... they only change the shape of the wing which changes/increases the lift vector.
Strong said "Flaps essentially increase the wing size creating more lift."
Thanks for being so technical, I was just trying to keep it simple. Well you increase the size of the camber so in a way it makes the lifting part of the wing bigger.
I fly cartoon planes, you knew that..
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Thanks for being so technical, I was just trying to keep it simple. Well you increase the size of the camber so in a way it makes the lifting part of the wing bigger.
I fly cartoon planes, you knew that..
Only intent was to be helpful ... again ... you are not increasing the size of anything ... you are changing the angle.
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Only intent was to be helpful ... again ... you are not increasing the size of anything ... you are changing the angle.
Technically, as he said, it increases the camber (we are talking WWII planes), so yeah, it does. Increased camber basically changes the wing profile (in layman terms, thickness and/or surface) which in change increases the lift and/or drag.
Also true that flaps can and do change AoA (but not always).
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Flaps increase the angle of incidence and the coefficient of lift. Flaps have the effect of increasing AoA (by increasing the angle of incidence) while lowering the stall speed with the increased coefficient of lift.
Fowler flaps like those on the P-38 increase the wing area and lower the wing loading in addition to changing the angle of incidence and increasing the coefficient of lift.
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wow, bozon, ur either trollin, or so far off the mark, its hard to believe. :rofl elfy
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wow, bozon, ur either trollin, or so far off the mark, its hard to believe. :rofl elfy
No, I am serious. Flaps help, but their net effect on the outcome of the fight is WAY overrated. In particular things like pulling them in and out during scissors.
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No, I am serious. Flaps help, but their net effect on the outcome of the fight is WAY overrated. In particular things like pulling them in and out during scissors.
Depends on the plane that you're flying and the situation you're in. The blanket statement you make might be true for the plane you choose to fly but it's not true of every plane in the plane set.
ack-ack
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No, I am serious. Flaps help, but their net effect on the outcome of the fight is WAY overrated. In particular things like pulling them in and out during scissors.
Not if you fly the FM2 or F6F and want to tangle with Spits and Zekes.
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No, I am serious. Flaps help, but their net effect on the outcome of the fight is WAY overrated. In particular things like pulling them in and out during scissors.
Gotta disagree, in some planes using flaps effectively can make or break the fight. This is especially the case in a duel situation where both pilots are in the same aircraft.
Flying the 38 if I get a flap damaged I certainly feel like I'm a pretty big disadvantage whether it's stuck down or up.
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What I consider my "main" ride, the KI84....the flaps are what give you the advantage in the fight against other high end birds like LAs, Spits, and N1ks :salute
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fly 109 g14 without flaps at slow speed? thats asking to loose a fight. Most planes, esp the faster ones, require flaps for halfway decent slow speed handling.