Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: waystin2 on April 03, 2010, 11:11:53 PM
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Please check into the damage model on the Wirbelwind. I have twice been killed by planes that are only equipped with .50 cals in strafing runs. This should not be possible. Thank you in advance HTC.
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Way, were you damaged prior to the 50's hitting you ? pretty thin, I know
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Weren't there tests done that showed the Browning M2 COULD actually penetrate steel plate armor?
However I've NEVER seen .50cal kill a Wirble or Ostwind. They can certainly knock out the turret (open top + several hundred flying bits of metal = hamburger) and I've occasionally seen hits to the right area kill an M8, but never anything more heavily armored than that.
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Sax, I've seen 50cal take the turret out but flat killing it..not sure on that....SNAILMAN, where are you ?
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Way, were you damaged prior to the 50's hitting you ? pretty thin, I know
Negative. I have driven the WW enough since it's inception to know something has changed. In fact, both kills were from P40E's no bombs.
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Please check into the damage model on the Wirbelwind. I have twice been killed by planes that are only equipped with .50 cals in strafing runs. This should not be possible. Thank you in advance HTC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uytYDVfnyGc Maybe he got a good rear burst on you.
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SNAILMAN, where are you ?
I'm here, but I don't know what I am required for in this thread ;)
But I have a suggestion: We (and probably HTC too) need .ahf films showing this.
So my advice would be: Take a friend, go to MW and try to recreate this incident. Select a remote location, spawn a wirble to enemy base where the friend is waiting in a P-40 or similar plane. Then test a few times it with recorder running.
When there still was a LAN option, I used to do such tests by myself, but that ain't possible anymore :(
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Blew up a flak today with a few passes in a Hellcat. I like being able to kill them with .50's :devil
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I must have +50 kills on WW just by taking out their turret with my .50 cal p-47.
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I am not talking about bailing from it when I have lost my turret. I will take Lusches advice and try to recreate & film.
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Seeing that its an OPEN turret. Don't you think .50 coming in at a steep angle would get inside the hull and puree the occupants?
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Seeing that its an OPEN turret. Don't you think .50 coming in at a steep angle would get inside the hull and puree the occupants?
I do. But then, it never worked that way in AH, and I don't remember any mentioning of changes in the GV damage model in the release notes.
So so there are some questions open on that matter. ;)
First step: Find out if something is really different.
Second step, if yes, find out why :)
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I do. But then, it never worked that way in AH, and I don't remember any mentioning of changes in the GV damage model in the release notes.
So so there are some questions open on that matter. ;)
First step: Find out if something is really different.
Second step, if yes, find out why :)
Well if it's now the case... then it has been fixed IMO. :aok
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Well if it's now the case... then it has been fixed IMO. :aok
Now if only they'd do something about the lack of recoil and unrealistic volume or rate of fire....
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Now if only they'd do something about the lack of recoil and unrealistic volume or rate of fire....
Remember when recoil was 1st added? The whine was incredible.
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The occupants of any open topped vehicles should be easily wounded or killed by ANY machine gun bullets that come in through the open top. Common sense should tell you that once a machine gun bullet enters the open top of an armored vehicle the bullet will ricochet wildly inside the turret.
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the turret is one thing... Exploding the entire vehicle is another..
I was killed by 50 cal MG only the other day, by a spit9 a couple weeks ago..
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,285770.0.html
someone there mentions the 50bmg should actually in reality penetrate the armor, if that is the case, then maybe we've been enjoying too-tough osties and wirbs for years :)
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the turret is one thing... Exploding the entire vehicle is another..
I was killed by 50 cal MG only the other day, by a spit9 a couple weeks ago..
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,285770.0.html
someone there mentions the 50bmg should actually in reality penetrate the armor, if that is the case, then maybe we've been enjoying too-tough osties and wirbs for years :)
The "blowing up" would be the crew perishing a cartoon death from "ricochet syndrome".
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I understand the .50 cal penetration argument. Bear in mind that we are talking about a Panzer IV chassis with a different turret. That means that the Panzer IV would also be vulnerable to machine gun fire. I would like to see more info before I sit one side of the fence or the other. All I do know is that previously the WW was able to take sustained bullet and HE cannon fire for quite some time before being destroyed. Something has changed.
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I understand the .50 cal penetration argument. Bear in mind that we are talking about a Panzer IV chassis with a different turret. That means that the Panzer IV would also be vulnerable to machine gun fire. I would like to see more info before I sit one side of the fence or the other. All I do know is that previously the WW was able to take sustained bullet and HE cannon fire for quite some time before being destroyed. Something has changed.
I don't think we are talking penetration. It's the different turret that makes all the difference between killing a WW or Osti vs. a PzkwIV. The closed-top turret of the IV prevents any rounds from entering the crew compartment. There is no barrier between open sky and the driver's compartement of a WW or Osti. So bullets from above could theoretically even kill the driver and hull gunner on a WW or Osti, whereas it would not be possible on a IV.
Don't get me wrong, we've seen film of a guy in an M16 killing IVs outright by parking behind him at point blank range . . . but that's a bit of a different situation and a boatload of impacts vs. what you are getting from a typical strafing run from an aircraft.
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All I do know is that previously the WW was able to take sustained bullet and HE cannon fire for quite some time before being destroyed. Something has changed.
that's my exact thoughts also.. used to be able to sit turreted for hours, unless someone came along in a tank, or brought a bomb or il2/hurrid.. mosquitos/110's would spend 5 minutes taking out tracks, but you would survive quite a while..
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If only your turret is damaged, then you, the driver, were not hit. It works just like a plane, if you kill the person, the vehicle or plane explodes.
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I must have +50 kills on WW just by taking out their turret with my .50 cal p-47.
forget that i had 55 rounds left in only two of my P51Ds guns and i strafed a WW to death the other day... something is wrong with the WW
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When you take out an armored vehicle with guns smaller than 37MM, you have killed the driver. The explosion is just how the game shows a dead driver.
Any open topped vehicle should be very vulnerable to machine gun fire. An open turret vehicle has nothing to protect the occupants from machine gun fire except air. Air is a lousy armor.
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Double post-darn bbs
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When you take out an armored vehicle with guns smaller than 37MM, you have killed the driver. The explosion is just how the game shows a dead driver.
Any open topped vehicle should be very vulnerable to machine gun fire. An open turret vehicle has nothing to protect the occupants from machine gun fire except air. Air is a lousy armor.
There is no doubt that the three crew in the turret are extremely vulnerable, however there is no open air (lousy armor- :lol) access to the driver. I am left wondering how .50 cals can kill the driver in 1-2 passes with only the drivers slit as direct access to his position. My question is when did HTC change this modeling and was it intentional? It certainly was never part of the model before. Please understand here that you are not dealing with a new driver to this vehicle. I have thousands of kills, and hundreds of sorties since it's inclusion into the AH Inventory. I am wishing for a fix back to original damage modeling or an official announcement that it has been changed by HTC. Until such a time, I consider it as something wrong with the game.
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For as long as I can remember, HTC has coded the death of the driver/pilot as instant explosive destruction of the vehicle/plane.
If drivers/operators of open top vehicles are now being killed by machine gun fire and they were not before, I'd say there was previously a game problem, and it has been fixed. If they are not easily killed when machine gun fire strikes the open top turret, they certainly should be.
If it is a bug, HTC will fix it quickly, if you provide evidence.
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There is no doubt that the three crew in the turret are extremely vulnerable, however there is no open air (lousy armor- :lol) access to the driver. I am left wondering how .50 cals can kill the driver in 1-2 passes with only the drivers slit as direct access to his position. My question is when did HTC change this modeling and was it intentional? It certainly was never part of the model before. Please understand here that you are not dealing with a new driver to this vehicle. I have thousands of kills, and hundreds of sorties since it's inclusion into the AH Inventory. I am wishing for a fix back to original damage modeling or an official announcement that it has been changed by HTC. Until such a time, I consider it as something wrong with the game.
When you, the player, jump to the gun, you, the player, become vulnerable to machine gun fire, as it should be. Therefore, if machine gun fire kills you, the player, while you man the gun, and the vehicle explodes, sending you to the tower, then things are as they should be. If you, the player, are manning the gun, what happens to the driver shouldn't matter. The only thing that should matter is what happens to the occupant of the position you are manning when the damage is done.
If you are easily killed by machine gun fire while actually in the driver's position, and "buttoned up", then there is a problem.
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There is no doubt that the three crew in the turret are extremely vulnerable, however there is no open air (lousy armor- :lol) access to the driver.
Erm yes there is. The turret is OPEN to the rest of the occupant compartment. How do you think they facilitated movement of ammo from hull to turret?
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When you, the player, jump to the gun, you, the player, become vulnerable to machine gun fire, as it should be. Therefore, if machine gun fire kills you, the player, while you man the gun, and the vehicle explodes, sending you to the tower, then things are as they should be. If you, the player, are manning the gun, what happens to the driver shouldn't matter. The only thing that should matter is what happens to the occupant of the position you are manning when the damage is done.
I perceive this as your opinion and not necessarily HTC's. I respect and understand your insight, but this is a whole new can of worms that I would not want to open. Imagine being killed in a tank while in the commanders position at your machinegun, being killed in your bomber or PT boat while in a gunners position ... What a gripe fest it would cause. Thank you for the mention that it may be a bug, I am wondering if I put this into the wrong forum.
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Erm yes there is. The turret is OPEN to the rest of the occupant compartment. How do you think they facilitated movement of ammo from hull to turret?
I am trying hard to find some pics. Will advise...
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I perceive this as your opinion and not necessarily HTC's. I respect and understand your insight, but this is a whole new can of worms that I would not want to open. Imagine being killed in a tank while in the commanders position at your machinegun, being killed in your bomber or PT boat while in a gunners position ... What a gripe fest it would cause. Thank you for the mention that it may be a bug, I am wondering if I put this into the wrong forum.
You are free to perceive it as you wish. You can be killed by gun fire in a bomber while at a gunners post. It happened to me, and I used to keep the film as proof. I have also been killed by gun fire in a GV while in the driver's position and not "buttoned up". I can't see how anyone would have an issue with being killed because the occupant of that position was killed by gun fire. Expecting to be invulnerable to gun fire in any position is rather ludicrous. If you can be killed by gun fire while in the pilot's position in a bomber, why would you expect NOT to be killed if you jump to a gun position and it is hit by gun fire? Why would you expect a GV to be any different?
The commander of a PT boat stands right out in the open, and he can be killed there. You think he should be able to jump to a gun and NOT be killed by gun fire while there? You expect not to be killed when occupying a tank commander's position if the tank is not "buttoned up"? You think you should enjoy the field of view advantage while remaining invulnerable to gun fire?
I find your position to be lacking in logic. Gun fire kills in this game, why would you expect not to die if hit by gun fire just because you are in a particular position, or not in a particular position? What you are saying makes no sense at all.
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Hello Virgil,
First it has never been modeled that way in the WW since it's inclusion. I agree with you as far as the reality of the situation. Please no harm no foul here, just trying to get to the bottom of it. Your word is appreciated, but nowhere near enough to settle the issue. If HTC corrects or changes they announce it as so. It has not been announced as so. Therefore it must be a bug. I thank you for helping me logic this through.
:salute
Way
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forget that i had 55 rounds left in only two of my P51Ds guns and i strafed a WW to death the other day... something is wrong with the WW
Well, there may be. I to have put...a dozen rounds of .50 cal in a WW and took it out. I don't know.
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There were no intentional changes to the GV's that I know of. We always do our best to include any modeling changes in the read me. So can you state again what has changed from previous versions?
HiTech
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There were no intentional changes to the GV's that I know of. We always do our best to include any modeling changes in the read me. So can you state again what has changed from previous versions?
HiTech
Hello Hitech,
Since the inception of the WW it had always taken repeated passes with a cannon bird to kill a Wirbel. I have recently been gunned down and killed by the likes of a P40 (equipped with 4 .50 ). This just has never happened. Coincidence? Lucky shots? Bug? I do not know... Just curious Sir as to what is going on. Thank you for your response and I am earnestly trying to reproduce the results.
Sincerely,
Way
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Film of a P40E making two gun only passes on WW and getting kill:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/g3mmonmc2mk/2 pas p40e wirbel kill.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/g3mmonmc2mk/2 pas p40e wirbel kill.ahf)
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Hello Hitech,
Since the inception of the WW it had always taken repeated passes with a cannon bird to kill a Wirbel. I have recently been gunned down and killed by the likes of a P40 (equipped with 4 .50 ). This just has never happened. Coincidence? Lucky shots? Bug? I do not know... Just curious Sir as to what is going on. Thank you for your response and I am earnestly trying to reproduce the results.
Sincerely,
Way
also include the fact that the ostwind does NOT act like this. you still need alot of cannon on the top to kill an osti. the .303 and .50 will still take out the turret but will not destroy the platform
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Film of a P40E making two gun only passes on WW and getting kill:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/g3mmonmc2mk/2 pas p40e wirbel kill.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/g3mmonmc2mk/2 pas p40e wirbel kill.ahf)
Same film but from my perspective.
http://www.mediafire.com/?dzoyml03yyy
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also include the fact that the ostwind does NOT act like this. you still need alot of cannon on the top to kill an osti. the .303 and .50 will still take out the turret but will not destroy the platform
osties's turrent can be destroyed easily with one pass with spit cannon. with 303? I never have taken out a turret. ostie can easily be killed with cannon fire from above. werbie is doable but it has taken me most of 240 cannon rounds from a spitfire but never with mg. on the other hand I have gotten killed by the mg from a werbie while I was in an ostie after only a short burst.
semp
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I have noticed that the ww and OSTIE can die to 50 cals I have had it happen to me in both vehicles personally and I have even strafed a couple of ww's to death with my 2 nose 50's in my 39 q if you come in at about a 50-60 degree angle and spam away at the top of the ww it poofs you pull up hard and try to dodge the ground.
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I have noticed that the ww and OSTIE can die to 50 cals I have had it happen to me in both vehicles personally and I have even strafed a couple of ww's to death with my 2 nose 50's in my 39 q if you come in at about a 50-60 degree angle and spam away at the top of the ww it poofs you pull up hard and try to dodge the ground.
Yea, i have feed both flacks with my eight .50 cals. bye-bye they go. I wondering if people are starting to learned how to kill these flacks and using the tactics more often.
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Yea, i have feed both flacks with my eight .50 cals. bye-bye they go. I wondering if people are starting to learned how to kill these flacks and using the tactics more often.
First of all <S> Oak. Are folks getting more savvy on how to kill Wirbels? Yes. However, they should not be able to do so with light cannon or machinegun bullets. I have extensive experience in the Wirbelwind, and the only planes that were able to originally kill it with guns in minimal passes were: the IL-2, Hurri D, and the B-25. Honorable mentions to the 110, Yak9T. Never a light cannoned bird let alone a bird that only has machinegun bullets. If you view the film you will see that the test was carefully choregraphed. I asked Fear to target the front glacial armor on the WW. This is the thickest armor on this vehicle. I am saying that something has changed that would allow two passes with a 6 gun .50 cal bird to get a kill. There is no way that .50 cals can achieve penetration on this armor. The WW is far softer of target, and I think it merits inspection by HTC.
:salute
Way
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We did some looking and found the problem, it should be back the way it was on the next release.
HiTech
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also include the fact that the ostwind does NOT act like this. you still need alot of cannon on the top to kill an osti. the .303 and .50 will still take out the turret but will not destroy the platform
You can kill an Ostie (i.e. make it go BOOM!) with .50s. I described how to do it in another thread.
ack-ack
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Heh well the REAL problem is that in this "game" the Osti and the WW are VERY effective while in RL they were quickly discontinued in favor of a "truck mounted AA" which I think should replace the both Osti and WW.
Hitech has indicated that they have found the bug so expect .50 cal to no longer have any effect on them after next patch ;).
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Heh well the REAL problem is that in this "game" the Osti and the WW are VERY effective while in RL they were quickly discontinued in favor of a "truck mounted AA" which I think should replace the both Osti and WW.
Hitech has indicated that they have found the bug so expect .50 cal to no longer have any effect on them after next patch ;).
so a B25C (or H) with 8 50.cal machine guns wont hurt a flakker highly unlikely
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I have noticed that the ww and OSTIE can die to 50 cals I have had it happen to me in both vehicles personally and I have even strafed a couple of ww's to death with my 2 nose 50's in my 39 q if you come in at about a 50-60 degree angle and spam away at the top of the ww it poofs you pull up hard and try to dodge the ground.
hmm... maybe i got the wrong shot off then.
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We did some looking and found the problem, it should be back the way it was on the next release.
HiTech
ahhh good! I had a feeling we weren't completely insane (yet) :D
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We did some looking and found the problem, it should be back the way it was on the next release.
HiTech
Thank you Sir.
:salute
Way
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We did some looking and found the problem, it should be back the way it was on the next release.
HiTech
So that means that dropping from the top of the WW and spray it with eight .50 cal will not be possible on the new patch? Or is this problem more of going on a shadow angle and killing it?
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So that means that dropping from the top of the WW and spray it with eight .50 cal will not be possible on the new patch?
Back the way it was = You can drop & spray it, and you will kill the turret. Not make the WW go boom. :)
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Back the way it was = You can drop & spray it, and you will kill the turret. Not make the WW go boom. :)
got it, thx sir.
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Back the way it was = You can drop & spray it, and you will kill the turret. Not make the WW go boom. :)
mine never went boom anyways :lol :D