Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: daddog on April 20, 2010, 10:15:28 AM
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Not a new idea, but it is something that came up when we were talking about FSO setup's.
With a relatively new batch of some early war AC it would be a nice feature to add to our events.
To quote Stoney,Perhaps that's a setting we can ask HTC for--something where you black out if you're over 14,000 feet for more than 5 minutes or something--to use in those setups (PTO especially) when we know they weren't using oxygen.
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While this might be easier to implement, it would seem to me to be better to have the blackout modeled on the planes that didn't have oxygen. I mean, since it's on the wishlist and all.
Wiley.
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That's what he's talking about Wiley...the early war airplanes that didn't have oxygen systems.
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Well it certainly would have to be higher than 14,000 feet. People climb mountains without oxygen masks. Even I have camped at 9,000 feet and driven a car to around 11,000.
Without looking it up I think the real number is more in the 25-30,000 foot range and it doesn't seem to me like you'd be flying an EW aircraft that high in a scenario.
[EDIT]
I looked it up and I guess I was wrong. Here's an artical about it: http://www.c-f-c.com/supportdocs/abo2.htm (http://www.c-f-c.com/supportdocs/abo2.htm)
The first paragraph:
As the total atmospheric pressure decreases with altitude, the available oxygen pressure decreases in proportion, thus necessitating supplemental oxygen. A lack of sufficient oxygen will bring on hypoxia. Symptoms of hypoxia may begin as low as 5,000 feet with decreased night vision. The retina of the eye is affected by even extremely mild hypoxia. At 8,000 feet, forced concentration, fatigue and headache may occur. At 14,000 feet, forgetfulness, incompetence and indifference makes flying without the proper supplemental oxygen quite hazardous. At 17,000 feet, serious handicap and collapse may occur. These effects do not necessarily occur in the same sequence nor to the same extent in all individuals.
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Sky divers usually use 12k as the deprivation point. But as your article points out, it has to do with many factors.
Well it certainly would have to be higher than 14,000 feet. People climb mountains without oxygen masks. Even I have camped at 9,000 feet and driven a car to around 11,000.
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Hmp. I could swear I read 'an arena setting' so people would black out above a certain alt... Insufficient coffee I guess. Still sounds like a grand idea to me.
Wiley.
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That is really odd...I lived for years near Steamboat Springs and the hunting/fishing/camping/skiing was routinely 10 to 12,000 feet above sea level...although the lack of oxygen would be a good excuse for some things I did back then, never had any signs of hypoxia even after walking to the top of Pikes Peak. There has to be environmental factors that make the differences.
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Body gets used to low oxygen but it takes time.
Semp
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I'd like to see the oxygen system modeled as a subsystem that can be damaged. Get a hole in your oxygen line and if you're at altitude the pilot would start blacking out or something that would be alleviated by getting down to a lower altitude. I imagine it could get pretty complex from a modeling/coading perspective in the big bombers with multiple crew stations however.
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Name a WWII aircraft in this game that lacks oxygen?
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Name one that had unlimited oxygen, totally reliable systems, constant heat?
Where's that story of a P-38 pilot trainer hearing 2 students commenting about how a P-38 can't climb, so he says "We're goin climbing and we aren't stopping until you 2 say so" so they climb and climb and climb until they're freezing cold, barely able to speak, and one of them calls it off half frozen to death?
Because pilots can really pull Gs when their muscles are nonfunctional, eh?
To answer, things like the I-16 had none if I recall. Most soviet planes had none. Heck, most soviet planes had cardboard radios that never worked, too!
Then we get WW1 biplanes flying around at 20k which is absurd. These craft definitely had no O2, as well.
I'd like to see something. Blackouts will do, but some sort of time limit (like WEP, nonrechargable, but reloadable on hotpad) where it kicks in at certain alts.
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I-16 for starters.
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Forgive my ignorance on the subject...So some WW II planes did not have oxygen systems which allowed their pilot to fly above a certain altitude?
If yes, there should be a detrimental effect on those planes when flown above certain altitudes.
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Forgive my ignorance on the subject...So some WW II planes did not have oxygen systems which allowed their pilot to fly above a certain altitude?
If yes, there should be a detrimental effect on those planes when flown above certain altitudes.
You have to dig deep for the information but yes...many early war aircraft didn't have oxygen systems and some mid-late war didn't as well. I'm not totally positive but, I don't believe the I-16, Brewster, A6M2, D3A1, 109E4, P-40B, IL2, LA5, F4F4, FM2 and a couple of others had oxygen systems...or reliable oxygen systems that allowed extended flight times above 15000 feet. Have to dig around to find out exactly which aircraft.
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Well ideally it would be modeled as Soulyss suggested. A system that could be damaged so even those that have oxygen could find themselves limited by lack of oxygen. Having climbed some smaller Mts. over 14k without oxygen you guys are right, they would not be passing out. In defense of Stoney, he was just using that as an example, we all understood what point he was trying to make. Using the same back out graphic might not work best.
No doubt a pilots performance would diminish above 20k for a period of time without oxygen. Maybe couple some kind of graying out or a slight wobble as a warning and or subtract in small increments the responsiveness.
Anyway those smarter than I would have to figure that out, but it would be a fun addition for events except for a few that would cry about it. Most would welcome the new element to events. :)
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Folks cite 14k mountain climbers... But they don't say how long those people trained at high alts, how high they lived, etc. I'm in Denver. Mile high even in the city. First moving here was tough. I used to like running. I'd run as a kid from point A to point B. Here I could barely go a couple of blocks without wheezing. You get acclimated over the years, but that's only to normal activity! In a gasping-for-life dogfight pulling Gs and being ever-alert, forget about it! No contest! You'd never survive. I've done mountains as well, done a 10k and a 14k (Bierstadt) but only after several years of exercising at this level. Visit Kansas City and it feels like Superman arriving on Earth from Krypton.
Everyday pilots training and acclimated for sea level and lower alts would suffer heavily if they had to fight without O2 above 12-14k. Doesn't matter how well you train and exercise because your well-trained muscles just don't have the oxygen to function and your brain shuts down. You can't focus, can't concentrate, can't do simple calculations, etc. It's like being drunk. The Air Force did many tests on this just before the war in regards to altitude and oxygen. Had folks try performing tasks in a vacuum chamber with and without supplemental oxygen masks.
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I-16 for starters.
I-16 had an oxygen system by the time WWII happened, at least that is what was posted when it came up in the last post on this subject.
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Anyway those smarter than I would have to figure that out, but it would be a fun addition for events except for a few that would cry about it. Most would welcome the new element to events. :)
I'd be :airplane: :banana: :x for sure if it was something that could be implemented.
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You have to dig deep for the information but yes...many early war aircraft didn't have oxygen systems and some mid-late war didn't as well. I'm not totally positive but, I don't believe the I-16, Brewster, A6M2, D3A1, 109E4, P-40B, IL2, LA5, F4F4, FM2 and a couple of others had oxygen systems...or reliable oxygen systems that allowed extended flight times above 15000 feet. Have to dig around to find out exactly which aircraft.
Almost all of those had oxygen systems.
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Everyday pilots training and acclimated for sea level and lower alts would suffer heavily if they had to fight without O2 above 12-14k. Doesn't matter how well you train and exercise because your well-trained muscles just don't have the oxygen to function and your brain shuts down. You can't focus, can't concentrate, can't do simple calculations, etc. It's like being drunk.
No doubt someone flying at 30k and lost their oxygen system would be in a world of hurt in a hurry.
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I-16 had an oxygen system by the time WWII happened, at least that is what was posted when it came up in the last post on this subject.
Almost all of those had oxygen systems.
Designed with them? Or actually flew with them? Many planes were in disrepair, systems did not work. In the BOB I've read more than one report of a plane trying to keep up with a formation but falling behind because the landing gear kept extending. The poor pilot had to keep retracting them every minute or two.
Imagine combat like that!
I would think the ever-elitist IJN would keep the O2 working on their zeros, but Flying Tigers went into combat without functioning gunsights most times. Many soviet planes that were designed to have certain things never flew with them. Pilots in the field just yanked the crappy unreliable soviet-made parts out and flew without them. Most soviet units didn't have working radios til US lend-lease planes showed up. They would pull out factory-installed guns (which is why our P-39Q has a no-wing-guns option, by the way) and other gear. They rarely ever got above 12k most times, so with the exception of the high alt MiGs, the Pe-3s, I'd say most flew without working O2 equipment.
US planes were the same in some cases. I don't know about F4F4s, but I've read more than a few comments about them not needing to refill O2, or not having the supplies to refill O2 containers in many cases. EDIT: For some reason P-40s come to mind in this example.
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No doubt someone flying at 30k and lost their oxygen system would be in a world of hurt in a hurry.
That's the extreme. At 30K they still had problems even when breathing through O2 masks. I think they'd have basic problems even at 14-15k.
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I'd like to see the oxygen system modeled as a subsystem that can be damaged. Get a hole in your oxygen line and if you're at altitude the pilot would start blacking out or something that would be alleviated by getting down to a lower altitude.
That would be one way to get the Rooks down... go for the O2 system. :D
Folks cite 14k mountain climbers... But they don't say how long those people trained at high alts, how high they lived, etc. I'm in Denver. Mile high even in the city. First moving here was tough. I used to like running. I'd run as a kid from point A to point B. Here I could barely go a couple of blocks without wheezing. You get acclimated over the years, but that's only to normal activity! In a gasping-for-life dogfight pulling Gs and being ever-alert, forget about it! No contest! You'd never survive. I've done mountains as well, done a 10k and a 14k (Bierstadt) but only after several years of exercising at this level. Visit Kansas City and it feels like Superman arriving on Earth from Krypton.
I'm from Minnesota; typical altitude 1500'. When I had a job and money I'd head west to the mountains at least once or twice a year to go camping and off-roading in my Jeep. Colorado, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, etc. I've spent a lot of time at altitudes of 8000' + and never had any difficulty aclimating.
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Just to expound a little...
In PTO, especially earlier in the war, oxygen (even though available) was not used very much at all by pilots. The IJA/IJN especially were routinely flying without oxygen. Allied pilots flew without using it as well, since most of the action was below the oxygen use level. Regardless, this is merely an idea for a setting for special events, and not something to fundamentally alter the way we fly AH2.
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That's because at 8k there is little to no oxygen deprivation.
I've spent a lot of time at altitudes of 8000' + and never had any difficulty aclimating.
A great way to understand altitude sickness would be to go to a tourism site for a county like Peru........ Peru has so many elavations, it is national policy to explain the differences and issues of human's at different altitudes.
HOWEVER........ Mountain climbers, rock climbers, the casual hiker, blah blah blah............ Have little or nothing to do with what happens to a uncompressed pilot going from 5k to 20k.............
Just saying.
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WWI recon pilots (and the scouts who hunted them) trained to fly without oxygen up to 15-20k. When they got above that, they started developing the first compressed air bottled systems.
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I know the A6M2 had an O2 tank on the starboard side behind the pilot seat, so it has the system implemented into. Now whether these were constantly kept in check or not I haven't a clue, but I would guess during the beginning of the war they were as needed and that declined as Japan's war effort became more and more well... cratered.
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The problem of breathing at altitude is a two fold problem. One there is less oxygen and more importantly there is less pressure. Atmospheric pressure is about 14.7 PSI at sea level. It’s much less above 15K and that’s the main problem with breathing at altitude.
The human lung was designed to function properly at 14.7 PSI or there abouts. When the pressure is less then or for that matter greater then 14.7 PSI. The body can not exchange O2 and Co2 properly and in the case of less presure the O2 is not pressed into the blood in the lungs. There is less O2 in the blood supply to the brain.
Now consider this, remember the Concord flying along at 60,000. feet. If you had a loss of cabin pressure at 60K and the oxygen masks deployed and you managed to put one on, the sourounding atmospheric pressure would be so low that even if you inhaled 100% oxygen. It would not be pressed into your blood streem because the pressure is just to low. Now even if the autopilot took over and started a rapid decent manuver to get you down to say 28 thousand feet so you could actually start to breath. The maximum decent rate for the Concord programmed into it’s flight computers was 5000 a min. It would take 4 minutes just to get to 40,000 feet. You need to get below 28K. American Heart Association says your brain dead after 5 min. and dead after 6min. So now you have a plane load of people that are either dead or brain damaged.
That’s why the astronuts wear space suites, to provide an atmospheric pressure of 14.7 PSI.
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Designed with them? Or actually flew with them? Many planes were in disrepair, systems did not work.
Yes, but we get a factory fresh aircraft every time we launch.
In the BOB I've read more than one report of a plane trying to keep up with a formation but falling behind because the landing gear kept extending. The poor pilot had to keep retracting them every minute or two.
Imagine combat like that!
Yes. So fun. Losing before even getting to the fight.
I would think the ever-elitist IJN would keep the O2 working on their zeros, but Flying Tigers went into combat without functioning gunsights most times. Many soviet planes that were designed to have certain things never flew with them. Pilots in the field just yanked the crappy unreliable soviet-made parts out and flew without them. Most soviet units didn't have working radios til US lend-lease planes showed up. They would pull out factory-installed guns (which is why our P-39Q has a no-wing-guns option, by the way) and other gear. They rarely ever got above 12k most times, so with the exception of the high alt MiGs, the Pe-3s, I'd say most flew without working O2 equipment.
US planes were the same in some cases. I don't know about F4F4s, but I've read more than a few comments about them not needing to refill O2, or not having the supplies to refill O2 containers in many cases. EDIT: For some reason P-40s come to mind in this example.
We don't get field mods in AH. Ripping out the oxygen gear in a Spit XVI would make a lot of sense in AH as most never get near the altitude it is carried for, but that isn't and shouldn't be allowed.
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In the days when Pontius was a pilot, sorties lasted only 2-3 hours and no oxygen was carried for aircrew, the great ace James McCudden engaged and downed German two-seaters flying at 20,000 feet. Gave him dreadful headaches doing it though and, being an experienced fitter raised from the ranks, he'd tuned his SE5a's engine to give it a service ceiling 2-3,000 feet higher than the standard issue.
Another medical problem that arose from 'fast climb and faster dive' was the effect of differential air pressure on aircrew's ear-drums. I had the honour a few years ago to meet and chat with the great test pilot Neville Duke, who was introduced to me by his friend Nick Berryman with the comment 'you'll have to speak up, the old bugger's deaf as a post after all that zooming about up 'n' down', he should've stuck to slower kites like my old Walrus.' Rapid extreme altitude changes without the benefit of cabin pressurisation can even give rise to symptoms of 'the bends'.
And the effect on the pilot depends on the fitness of that particular pilot, so modelling anoxia would have to allow for this variable to be realistic and fair. So, nice idea but I reckon it's a non-starter.
<ponders the idea of modelling variable sound caused by ear-wax and syringing it out>
:cool:
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Simba thats pretty funny. Imagine having to enter your height, weight, fitness level and smoker or not in before flight to get the right amount of anoxia before flight. :D
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And the effect on the pilot depends on the fitness of that particular pilot, so modelling anoxia would have to allow for this variable to be realistic and fair. So, nice idea but I reckon it's a non-starter.
:huh
How could HTC possibly base it on the fitness of a pilot to make it fair? Unless we are all to take a fitness test and send the results to HTC. :lol
To make it fair the 'effect' it would be the same for all players.
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Lol. :lol
Maybe they can hook one of these up with a USB?
(http://www.cafre.ac.uk/food7.jpg)
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I'm from Minnesota; typical altitude 1500'. When I had a job and money I'd head west to the mountains at least once or twice a year to go camping and off-roading in my Jeep. Colorado, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, etc. I've spent a lot of time at altitudes of 8000' + and never had any difficulty aclimating.
That would be because at sea level every time you take a breath you inhale a mixture of gases, about 21% of that gas is oxygen. Your body only uses about 7% of that Oxygen and you exhale the unused gases and Co2. That why mouth to mouth rescue breathing works. At 8000 feet there is still an abundant supply of oxygen. However, the Atmospheric pressure is which is about 14.7 PSI at sea level is down to 10.3 PSI and at 14,000 feet is about 8.0 PSI. Pressure is the critical factor, not the level of Oxygen, but rather the level of atmospheric pressure available to press the O2 Oxygen molecules into the blood stream.
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:huh
How could HTC possibly base it on the fitness of a pilot to make it fair? Unless we are all to take a fitness test and send the results to HTC. :lol
To make it fair the 'effect' it would be the same for all players.
...plus he would have to start modeling random hangovers as well.
shamus
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lol Well, they could include a Breathalyzer (spelling?) along with the fitness test. ;)
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With slow oxygen deprivation, like an airplane climbing, you are not aware of it for a long time. My grandpa, a WWII veteran who was a waist gunner in a B-24, said one time the other waist gunner fell down on the floor and turned blue in the face. Ice had accumulated in the oxygen tube, so he wasn't getting enough oxygen. When my grandpa went to switch his oxygen mask, he didn't know why my grandpa was messing with him. He wasn't even aware something was wrong.
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Not a new idea, but it is something that came up when we were talking about FSO setup's.
With a relatively new batch of some early war AC it would be a nice feature to add to our events.
While I certainly applaud FSO's continuing effort to boldly go where no flightsim has gone before, in this particular case, I'm not so sure. By the late 1930s every airforce worthy of the name provided its pilots with oxygen systems. Whether those systems worked properly is another question. But, if we're going to ask that AH model occasional oxygen system failures, I have to ask: why stop there? Why not model engine failures on takeoff? Guns jamming when fired? Radios failing to transmit? Tires bursting on landing? Tail surfaces breaking during high-G pullouts? The list goes on and on. We've all heard stories about one or more of these things. Despite the existence of the anecdotes, I don't think it is possible - sixty years after the fact - to accurately quantify the probability of systems failures. Absent any hard numbers on just how common those were, any implementation would have to be based on a guess. And I think that's a bad idea.
All IMHO, of course. :salute
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I just want to see planes above 41k cause the pilots blood to boil without a pressure suit. No more rook astronauts! :devil
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Bino, I'm against random failures overall. However, it's not the case that "every air force" had O2 by the 1930s. Even our good old US of A didn't do it in many planes the first 2-3 years. The high alt guys going to berlin at 30k did for sure, but they weren't the only ones fighting the enemy.
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Interesting input here: A History of US Military Aviation Oxygen Breathing Systems (http://www.authorsden.com/categories/article_top.asp?catid=73&id=36665)
Throughout the 1930's the USAAC researchers at Wright Field produced a series of oxygen systems, based initially on equipment built by Draeger for German Zeppelin crews during WWI.
The article also refers to "...publication of USAAC TO 01-1H-1B (dated April 1938). This Technical Order stated that all personnel would use supplemental oxygen at all times in flights above 15,000 feet and that oxygen would be used at all times during any flying done at night (in order to help preserve good vision and motor skills coordination)."
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My idea wasn't about introducing oxygen system failures or simulating poorly operating or maintained oxygen systems, bur rather, a setting that would make pilots blackout from a lack of oxygen at a certain altitude for those battles when we know (from history), that the pilots weren't using oxygen. The magic altitude could be whatever, based on some research into hypoxia. That's it, nothing more.
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I like it but we need to deal with ceilings first, I got an I-16 up to 24k the other day while I was afk.
Seriously? 24 freakin k?
perdweeb
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My idea wasn't about introducing oxygen system failures or simulating poorly operating or maintained oxygen systems, bur rather, a setting that would make pilots blackout from a lack of oxygen at a certain altitude for those battles when we know (from history), that the pilots weren't using oxygen. The magic altitude could be whatever, based on some research into hypoxia. That's it, nothing more.
Stoney, I'd very much like to learn more about this. Please let me know where I can read about "...battles when we know (from history), that the pilots weren't using oxygen."
Thanks! :salute
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Stoney, I'd very much like to learn more about this. Please let me know where I can read about "...battles when we know (from history), that the pilots weren't using oxygen."
Thanks! :salute
Is that sincere or snarky?
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"Please let me know where I can read about "...battles when we know (from history), that the pilots weren't using oxygen."
Start with James McCudden's 'Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps'. It's easily found, if you can be bothered to make the effort.
:cool:
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I like it but we need to deal with ceilings first, I got an I-16 up to 24k the other day while I was afk.
Seriously? 24 freakin k?
perdweeb
As far as I know, the type 10 had a service ceiling well above 25k.
And while random failures are not necessarily a good idea, guns should have a tendency to jam under high G loads and violent maneuvering, whether firing or not. That factor has a direct effect on ACM.
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Is that sincere or snarky?
Totally snark-free, sir. If there were pilots during the 1939-1945 war who did not use O2, I'd like to read about them.
<snark=max> Simba, thanks very much for pointing out the obvious. </snark> ;)