Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Yarbles on May 20, 2010, 06:25:32 AM
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Given its relativley modest use and in practice poor performance in terms of K/D I would have thought it worth considering halfing its perk cost.
The arguments are.
1) It is by no means an uber ride and unlike other Spits challenging to fly at all well.
2) Its contemporary the 109 K4 is not perked and easily its match.
3) Although it has one of the lowest perk costs of a perked plane its sees little use.
4) In the arena it performs poorly in terms of K/D compared to ther perked rides.
In short I consider it a well modelled plane that would get more use but not upset the balance of the arena at all if the perk value was halved. It offers a chance to learn the strenghts and weaknesses of an exciting but more challenging Spit which at present I think we are wasteing as it is different but not significantly supperior to the 8 or 16 .
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I do have to diasgree. Don't half it's perk price.
Set it free. Unleash the Spit 14! No reason to perk it!
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Hopefully it will get unperked.
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I do have to diasgree. Don't half it's perk price.
Set it free. Unleash the Spit 14! No reason to perk it!
Out of interest would you say some of the mid to late war 109's are better than the last versions and would this also apply to the 190.
I am not convinced the 14 is actually a better Spit than the 8 or 16 would you agree.
Obvioulsy there are allot of factors and differnt circumstances but overall I would suggest in Spit terms the average stick would do better in the 8.
So what is the perk for. I would suggest to stop people automatically selecting the 14 as latest and therefore best and I can see no other reason. Given that this will tend to happen though a small perk value is in order in myu opinion.
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Out of interest would you say some of the mid to late war 109's are better than the last versions and would this also apply to the 190.
I am not convinced the 14 is actually a better Spit than the 8 or 16 would you agree.
Obvioulsy there are allot of factors and differnt circumstances but overall I would suggest in Spit terms the average stick would do better in the 8.
So what is the perk for. I would suggest to stop people automatically selecting the 14 as latest and therefore best and I can see no other reason. Given that this will tend to happen though a small perk value is in order in myu opinion.
I think most players that "automatically" would select the latest Spit would probably select the 16 - after all, 16 comes after 14... ;)
All others would do a few hops in it, then go back to the 16 rather quick. There is no reason to expect the arena would be flooded with 14's instead of 16's.
The earlier Spits a just much better handling, and the 14 doesn't offer enough advantages on it's own at typical MA altitudes that can compensate this trait.
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the Ta-152 was unperked for this same factor. There would not be any major effect by the Ta-152 in the LWMA. although compared to the Spit14 the 152 isn't much except for the flight time.
by the way: the snail himself told me this once upon a time :D
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I think most players that "automatically" would select the latest Spit would probably select the 16 - after all, 16 comes after 14... ;)
All others would do a few hops in it, then go back to the 16 rather quick. There is no reason to expect the arena would be flooded with 14's instead of 16's.
The earlier Spits a just much better handling, and the 14 doesn't offer enough advantages on it's own at typical MA altitudes that can compensate this trait.
I think the 8 is actually the best of the bunch overall and perhaps you are right about the 16. I would suggest HTC gives it a trial period as in a couple of perks or none and either way I don't think anyone will complaign.
8. For me halving or unperking it would be like getting a new plane ion the game. I thni if it was unperked there would be an initial flock to fly it but then it would settle down to being slightly more poular than the 9.
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I doubt any of the people posting here asking for it to be unperked have less than a good few thousand perk points on their account. Unless you keep crashing it on evey sortie, or keep rolling it out of a vulched field for the chess piece with most players and consistently get zero kills in it, most players can fly it exclusively for many many tours before running out of perks. The perk cost is nothing more than a psychological barrier.
That being said, it is not as dominant as the other perk rides of equal cost.
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Your fallacy is assuming kill/death ratio is related to the aircraft's performance itself. It is not. The spit14 is perked for good reason, and if you bring up the "but the spit16..." argument that only serves to fuel "the spit16 should be perked too" argument!
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Your fallacy is assuming kill/death ratio is related to the aircraft's performance itself. It is not. The spit14 is perked for good reason,
No it is not. Absolutely not. In this case the (relatively) low K/D reflects pretty much the aircrafts performance. Many factors that can artificially affect the K/D of a plane in a negative way are simply not present. No 2-week noobs augering čn masse (perk barrier). No porkers using it for suicide jabo runs (no ords), like the 47N or 51 or 38L. No one ever offered any explanation for it's low (for a perk ride) K/D
Fact is, the Spit 14 is a good & capable plane, but it offers nothing in LW MA play that puts it clearly "above & beyond" it's opposition in a manner that could be even remotely described as "unbalancing" in any way. It's still fragile, it actually does not like high speed (roll rate being quickly reduced to almost zero), it's an unstable gun platform with some vicious stall characteristics.
It's fast at MA combat altitudes - for a Spitfire, overall it's just "quite good". It climbs well, but 109's to that as well (and have 10mins WEP).
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Your fallacy is assuming kill/death ratio is related to the aircraft's performance itself. It is not. The spit14 is perked for good reason, and if you bring up the "but the spit16..." argument that only serves to fuel "the spit16 should be perked too" argument!
You always say that in these threads about the Spit XIV, but unlike us you never provide any evidence to support your position, none, not one single bit, yet you arrogantly act as though you have mountains of evidence supporting you. You do not, your opinion is not evidence.
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imho the spit 14 should be unperked and the spit16 perked :devil
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I completely agree with .... everyone, but isn't this a wish? Just saying....
Infidelz
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The Spit16 is far more capable than the Spit14. The *only* area in which the 14 outshines the 16 is in speed at high (22k+) altitudes. It does have a wee itsy bitsy advantage over the 16 in speed at lower levels, but not much. Any advantage the 14 has over the 16 is minimal due to the 16's far superior turn rate, roll rate, ability to carry 1k ordnance (think versatility), and near identical speeds and climb rates at the most common alts in AH.
There is a reason people take the Spit16 and not risk perks on the Spit14.
Set free the Spitfire Mk XIV!!! :aok
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Your fallacy is assuming kill/death ratio is related to the aircraft's performance itself. It is not. The spit14 is perked for good reason, and if you bring up the "but the spit16..." argument that only serves to fuel "the spit16 should be perked too" argument!
Your bias is showing.
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The Spit16 is far more capable than the Spit14.
Set free the Spitfire Mk XIV!!! :aok
Agreed. Perk the Spit 16 and La-7; take off the Spit 14 perk cost.
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I think a small incremental change more realistic as in halve the perks for the 14. The spit 16 is an inferior low speed dogfighter to the spit 8 and the LA7 is not a great turn plane with limited range and poor performance at altitude.
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Agreed. Perk the Spit 16, La-7 and P-51D; take off the Spit 14 perk cost.
fixed :D
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I don't fly spits very often the only ones I do though when I feel the fancy is the spit 1 spit 14 and spit 16. I have to say I believe the spit 14 is better than the spit 16 atleast the way I fly any who I say this not just because of the climb difference but because I feel as though the spit 14 just accelerates faster. I can't say with facts that it does just saying it feels like it does if any one has real knowledge on which one accelerates faster feel free to clue us in but I have a good feeling that the spit 14 drag races a bit harder.
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. I can't say with facts that it does just saying it feels like it does if any one has real knowledge on which one accelerates faster feel free to clue us in but I have a good feeling that the spit 14 drag races a bit harder.
Yes. Sort of.
Under 250mph the effect is absolutely negligible (like 0.1s when going 150-200). Over 250 it's still very small, only when it's getting closer to the 16's top speed the 14 starts pulling away...
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so far... it appears that a wee bit of speed advantage and a wee bit of climb advantage over the 16 gives the 14 a perk cost, but the obviously better roll rates, turn rates, and ability to carry 1k ordnance for the 16 gets a free pass.
One has to wonder how they gauge what gets perked and what does not. :headscratch:
The Spit14 is a beast... above 20k. :huh
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Spit 14 feels and sounds like it bogs right down btwn 18 and 22K, chugs gas like a 69 Coupe DeVille, and has an evil stall. +1
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Agreed. Perk the Spit 16 and La-7; take off the Spit 14 perk cost.
wherever did my perk thread go to? :D
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,285978.0.html
i love starting things for fun...
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Personally I'd be fine with cutting the 14's perk cost in half, and putting it on the 16.
But I don't think you'll ever see it happen. For whatever reason HTC has decided to leave the 16 unperked.
And unless it becomes totally unbalanced in the area's the the F4u-1c long long ago. You won't ever see it perked.
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The 16 seems to be every where; I think it should be perked somewhat. How much combat did they really see?
I'm biased the 16 seems to be my nemesis I still can't fight them as well as I'd like. It is a very good performing plane.........
I have never flown the Spit 14 but it seems to be more of a BnZ/E fighter. Those are the types of planes that I would normally fly. I think the reason most Spit pilots don't fly them well is because they're used to the TnB of the other Spits.
I think the really late war or small production lot super planes should all be perked somewhat because they are so good and didn't see too much combat. Spit 16, 109K-4 probably some others. It's already been done to the F4U 4 and C. I think the arena would have a better balance. IMO the only reason the 16 hasn't been adjusted is that too many people will complain because they fly it....Politics.......And Aces High is here to make $.
I have nothing against those who like the 14 or 16...If you like flying it you wouldn't want someone to take it away.
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yeah the spit16 is a noobs plane, not many vets fly it. and i dont care much about the darn thing getting perked cuz i'm always dancing around it in circles :D :P
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so far... it appears that a wee bit of speed advantage and a wee bit of climb advantage over the 16 gives the 14 a perk cost
The spit14 is a beast below 20k too.
Consider that the spit14 has been in AH for a long long long long time.
The spit16 is a newcomer, comparatively.
The Spit14 was perked for a reason. Now comes a plane just as good (and better in some respects) and it remains unperked. The question is not "why is the spit14 perked" but "why was the spit16 NOT perked like the other?"
HTC are the only ones that know why.
P.S. You can't perk the spit16 and not the spit8. Almost identical speed/climb/turn rates. They're essentially the same plane, but one has clipped wingtips and one has wing fuel tanks. That's why these discussions never go anywhere, ever, and I doubt they ever will.
IMO the Spit14 is perked for good reason. The spit16 is NOT perked for whatever reason. I don't think HTC will ever change that JUST to prevent the opening of the can of worms if EITHER happens.
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Krusty,
The Ta152 was perked for a reason too.
Tired of your circular reasoning yet?
The P-51D is totally dominating the numbers this tour. It has a higher K/D ratio and more than 3000 more kills and more than 2000 more deaths than the Spitfire Mk XVI. Remove the Spit XVI and the P-51D has more than twice the kills of the next highest fighter.
I know that you say none of that means anything and the only measure that counts is the mystical Krusty feeling, but....
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Krusty meter is pegged BTW. :D
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Tired of your circular reasoning yet?
My point was to blatantly point out the ARGUMENT itself is iherrently circular. Not my comments.
Let's go through it.
Point A:
You can't justify unperking what is for all intents and purposes a monster airplane with one of the best rates of climb in the game and more manuverability than "most" of the planeset, 2 hispanos, 2 50cals, and a very lethal platform. It was perked for a reason.
leads to point B:
The Spit16 is introduced but does NOT receive a perk price. Currently the MOST used spit in the entire game, it and the spit8 (essentially the same plane) have been used the most for more tours than I can count, even more than the P-51 (and they don't ground pound!). This plane is more manuverable, JUST as able of climbing, has the same weapons package and rolls like a f4u, yet is not perked. By all previous criteria it should have an equal perk to the Spit14.
leads us to point C:
The Spit8 is the Spit16. Same plane. Spit8 has slightly more lift due to rounded wingtips, but slightly more weight due to wing gas tanks, so climb rates are almost identical. Level speeds are almost identical too (in fact may be). The only differences are the clipped wings roll rate on the spit16, so one must not mention perking the spit16 without some caveat or mention of the spit8 as well.
Which leads us to A again.
You can't mention any one of these planes and the word "perk" without mentioning all of them and discussing what a messy can of worms the entire deal is.
My opinion/point was the end of the last post I made in this thread: That it is such a bloody mess HTC probably won't do anything about it.
The Ta152 was perked out of a fear that never manifested. It also suffered greatly when AH2 was introduced. In AH1 it was quite the dogfighter, able to hang on its nose like an ICBM, it was extremely potent. In AH2 it really lost something in the translation and the instabilities have all but crippled it for general use. In AH1 it warranted a perk. In AH2 it does not. In AH1 the Spit14 warranted a perk, and for the same reasons it still does in AH2. I don't think you can compare the two cases and set "spit precedent" based off of "Ta152 history".
EDIT: I'm not sure if I'm describing my last post's intentions properly. I gave it a shot, but sometimes I don't phrase things the way that others will best understand.
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The mess exists only in your imagination. The only part of your Spit XIV description that is accurate is its climb and armament. Everything else demonstrates your lack of familiarity with it. The Bf109K-4 is superior in all ways other than armament vs fighters.
The Spit XIV is hardly used for a reason. It was hardly used even when the top end free Spit was a 1942 Merlin 61 Spitfire IX for a reason.
If you add the Spit VIII's numbers to the Spit XVI's they slightly edge out the P-51D, though the K/D ratio is even worse than if you just compare the Spit XVI to the P-51D.
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the Ta-152 was unperked for this same factor. There would not be any major effect by the Ta-152 in the LWMA. although compared to the Spit14 the 152 isn't much except for the flight time.
by the way: the snail himself told me this once upon a time :D
agreed....
I will say this, i have had the crap kicked out of me by spit 14s above 15k so if i get close to one above the clouds i give it careful consideration.
5k or below i don't thik much of it.
I would also say that above 15k i would rather be in the 14 than the 152 head to head.
kinda hard to beat the 152 for smokin buffs with the all tater weapons platform.
froger
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agreed....
I will say this, i have had the crap kicked out of me by spit 14s above 15k so if i get close to one above the clouds i give it careful consideration.
5k or below i don't thik much of it.
I would also say that above 15k i would rather be in the 14 than the 152 head to head.
kinda hard to beat the 152 for smokin buffs with the all tater weapons platform.
froger
under 5k and that spit14 is a chew toy, and yeah the 152 is a tater monkey... you get shot by the Ta-152 and you KNOW you're not gonna live...
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You can't mention any one of these planes and the word "perk" without mentioning all of them and discussing what a messy can of worms the entire deal is.
Which is why I would like to see its perk price halved as in its current form its too expensive in relation to other planes for example the k4 which is not perked or the Spit 8 and 16 for the same reason. Reducing the 14 to half the current perk rate would not de stabilise the game it would just provide marginally more choice imo.
My experieice flying the Spit 8 is the ki's and the LA 7 are the common force most difficult to overcome currently. The Spit 16 is aat a distinct dissadvantage to the 8 and even 9 in the tnb. The 14 is a good challenge for the 51 in its territory though the 51 still has disinct advantages as does the 14.
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you get shot by the Ta-152 and you KNOW you're not gonna live...
yeah ... in theory. yesterday I somehow managed to get 9 assists in a 152, then spoilt my run by getting my 1st kill of the sortie. no buffs, no planes with visible damage. :headscratch:
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The 16 seems to be every where; I think it should be perked somewhat. How much combat did they really see?
Easy one to answer -
Apart from the .50 cals the XVI is identical to a Mid 1943 LF IX, and identical to a mid 1944 LF IXe.
Assuming they haven't updated the XVI to the correct Merlin 266 FM and still use the Merlin 66 FM.
So 2+ years as an LF IX, and 1 year as an LF IXe / XVI.
Many of us have wondered if there would be as many complaints about the XVI if it had been tagged instead as an LF.IXe
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Easy one to answer -
Apart from the .50 cals the XVI is identical to a Mid 1943 LF IX, and identical to a mid 1944 LF IXe.
Assuming they haven't updated the XVI to the correct Merlin 266 FM and still use the Merlin 66 FM.
So 2+ years as an LF IX, and 1 year as an LF IXe / XVI.
Many of us have wondered if there would be as many complaints about the XVI if it had been tagged instead as an LF.IXe
the difference between the 266 and the 66 was that the 266 was a 66 built overseas.
yeah ... in theory. yesterday I somehow managed to get 9 assists in a 152, then spoilt my run by getting my 1st kill of the sortie. no buffs, no planes with visible damage. :headscratch:
strange... i seem to die fast whenever matched against the 152
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Many of us have wondered if there would be as many complaints about the XVI if it had been tagged instead as an LF.IXe
Are you kidding? There wouldn't be enough cheese on the planet for that amount of whine.
Ohh and since it is not running on 1945 cleared boost setting we do not have a true late war spit...IMO.
TY spitfireperformance.com
(http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no165_25lbs.jpg)
(http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no165_25lbs2.jpg)
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The spit14 is an excellent deterant to the 15k+ 51D's that seem to infest the MA. Unfortunatly because it's perked, low furballs can become a bit hairy...... :joystick:
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the difference between the 266 and the 66 was that the 266 was a 66 built overseas.
The 266 has a FTH 1k above the 66's FTH.
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The 266 has a FTH 1k above the 66's FTH.
really? i've never heard this... could you find a source?
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Spits a dweeb plane, conversation closed. :joystick:
-BigBOBCH
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Spits a dweeb plane, conversation closed. :joystick:
-BigBOBCH
Obviously, you've mistaken the Spit16 with the rest of the Spitfire lineup. Especially, the Mk's I, V, and IX. :)
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lol, all you do is turn in it.
-BigBOBCH
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really? i've never heard this... could you find a source?
My source was Dan or Kev. They have much larger Spitfire libraries than I do.
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The spit14 is an excellent deterant to the 15k+ 51D's that seem to infest the MA. Unfortunatly because it's perked, low furballs can become a bit hairy...... :joystick:
Yep I think we all get tired of 51's hovering over us waiting to pick. More 14'S to periodically chase them away woudn't be a bad thing imo.
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I actually think that the P-47M is a great counter to the ponies...the dive flaps make it a real monster comming in high and fast. 8x .50's compare nicely to a pair of 20mm's in lethality as well.
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The 266 has a FTH 1k above the 66's FTH.
Yes it does, but the last time I checked our XVI's FTH was spot on for a Merlin 66, not 266.
So in reality it's not a XVI, it's an LF.IXe.
FTH's
66 - 22,000ft
266 - 23,000ft
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I actually think that the P-47M is a great counter to the ponies...the dive flaps make it a real monster comming in high and fast. 8x .50's compare nicely to a pair of 20mm's in lethality as well.
But the 47 can't chase it down to the deck and then out turn it ;)
Do the htc chaps ever come on here and explain why a plane is perked as it is?
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"after all, 16 comes after 14"
One of the reasons I lobbied for the Spitfire XVI (16) to be labelled Spitfire IXe in Aces High. I still dont know why they bothered with the confusing (to many players) XVI handle. Especially when XVI and XIV looks so close.
Spitfire I
Spitfire V
Spitfire IX
Spitfire IXe
Spitfire XIV (perked)
Much bttr imho.
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yeah the spit16 is a noobs plane, not many vets fly it.
Not many vets fly it? Its been my experience that you're most likely to find a 'veteran' behind the stick of a Spitfire Mk XVI than you would a 'n00b'.
ack-ack
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Drop the XIV's ENY to 10 and leave it perked. Easy-peazey, nice & breezey.
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Drop the XIV's ENY to 10 and leave it perked. Easy-peazey, nice & breezey.
If that makes sense I suppose it shows the plane wouldn't unbalance play ;)