Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Nemisis on June 06, 2010, 01:53:49 PM
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Right now, you have to HIT the tiger with 500lb bombs, and get within 3 ft with 1000lb bombs. 2000lb and up, the splash damage will be enough to kill it if you are a decent aim. But 500lbs of HE is 500lbs of HE, the 30mm or so of armor on top of a tiger isn't going to stop that.
Also, it appears that bombs won't even knock of the pintil, or destroy the tracks of ANY tank. I ask to have that rectified as well. Even the HE shells from tanks should do that, I mean 6lbs of explosives will take a pintil gun off in real life.
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A 500lbs bomb in real life would likely decimate any tank, the way it is now is purely for balance I believe.
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I have tracked T-34s with 50s so I think you should do some more testing. Since the last patch I havent missed with bombs enough to know if they wont kill ANY tank (EDIT: meaning any tank will explode if you get close enough with bombs).
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The Tiger is already worthless in game, don't make it even more worthless.
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The Tiger is already worthless in game, don't make it even more worthless.
Yeah, its only the best tank.
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Tiger's a great tank, just use it right :rolleyes:
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Yeah, its only the best tank.
It's got the biggest cannon only by 3mm (T34/85) for 1/8th of the price. Granted, the T34/85's armor isn't good, top wise.
It can be one shotted with ease (I always die to one shot) and the Firefly manhandles it.
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It's got the biggest cannon only by 3mm (T34/85) for 1/8th of the price. Granted, the T34/85's armor isn't good, top wise.
It can be one shotted with ease (I always die to one shot) and the Firefly manhandles it.
uhh...the T34's 85mm is the equivalent of the American 76mm... :headscratch:
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It's got the biggest cannon only by 3mm (T34/85) for 1/8th of the price.
Caliber isn't everything, even with cannons ;)
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Gotcha...shows how much I actually step foot in a GV eh!
I haven't really tried out the new M4s, but if I were to up for a quick base defense, I'd roll a Firefly. If I was attacking a base I'd bring the same. If I was camping a spawn from 3K away, I'd up a Tiger, but how many times are you going to see that vs. a close quarters GV battle at ~600-1.5k?
The Tiger isn't what it used to be. I'll say it again and again, I remember in the ole TT with canopy trees and old graphics when the Tiger was the king, where people would be screaming all over vox "There's a TIGER UP!". And the guys who would bring LanStuka's in to carpet bomb them too.
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Gotcha...shows how much I actually step foot in a GV eh!
I haven't really tried out the new M4s, but if I were to up for a quick base defense, I'd roll a Firefly. If I was attacking a base I'd bring the same. If I was camping a spawn from 3K away, I'd up a Tiger, but how many times are you going to see that vs. a close quarters GV battle at ~600-1.5k?
The Tiger isn't what it used to be. I'll say it again and again, I remember in the ole TT with canopy trees and old graphics when the Tiger was the king, where people would be screaming all over vox "There's a TIGER UP!". And the guys who would bring LanStuka's in to carpet bomb them too.
so now that tigers need to be used strategically like they historically had to do anyways, people complain? The Tiger tank was never invincible in real life unless the crew in the tiger knew what they were doing. whenever i up a tiger i roll streaks of 15-20 usually (due to the fact i study my enemy and terrain BEFORE i deploy it). These tigers may not be the supermen of the old AHI where they only fought pnzrs but they are still beyond formidable foes.
(think about this. it was a statistic that in american to tiger fights it took 3 shermans deaths for the 4th to kill the tiger.) that would mean it would be a 4 to 1 ratio GVwise if these noobs knew how to drive it. Last tour my tigers went 45 to 9 (four of my deaths were in an attack style where i could not land, these sorties also had the most kills for me though). Its not hard to do if you just use them right. Right now in this tour i have 5 kills and one death, my death was due to a stupid P47 otherwise i could have killed many more GVs in the battle and landed on the concrete i was tracked on.
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Caliber isn't everything, even with cannons ;)
yes and no . The length of the round divided by the diameter is also expressed in calibers<german75/70> . Add optics and you have everything that objectively determines a guns performance . Other then things that would be equal . Wind , air pressure ,altitude etc . With optics and these other things not being modeled . And subjective things like crew training ,skill , cohesion accounted for by individual player skill . As far as ammunition , I don't know what all they model other then muzzle velocity . Love your posts snailman ,I am curious what else would effect cannon performance ,in game,other then caliber . You are far more knowledgeable then I concerning this stuff . In particular is the German case hardening modeled ?
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so now that tigers need to be used strategically like they historically had to do anyways, people complain? The Tiger tank was never invincible in real life unless the crew in the tiger knew what they were doing. whenever i up a tiger i roll streaks of 15-20 usually (due to the fact i study my enemy and terrain BEFORE i deploy it). These tigers may not be the supermen of the old AHI where they only fought pnzrs but they are still beyond formidable foes.
(think about this. it was a statistic that in american to tiger fights it took 3 shermans deaths for the 4th to kill the tiger.) that would mean it would be a 4 to 1 ratio GVwise if these noobs knew how to drive it. Last tour my tigers went 45 to 9 (four of my deaths were in an attack style where i could not land, these sorties also had the most kills for me though). Its not hard to do if you just use them right. Right now in this tour i have 5 kills and one death, my death was due to a stupid P47 otherwise i could have killed many more GVs in the battle and landed on the concrete i was tracked on.
I think combat losses are closer to 8 to 1 in Tiger vs sherman . With total over all losses at 5 to 1. The last includes all wastage for all reasons so should not be considered .
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yes and no . The length of the round divided by the diameter is also expressed in calibers<german75/70> . Add optics and you have everything that objectively determines a guns performance . Other then things that would be equal . Wind , air pressure ,altitude etc . With optics and these other things not being modeled . And subjective things like crew training ,skill , cohesion accounted for by individual player skill . As far as ammunition , I don't know what all they model other then muzzle velocity . Love your posts snailman ,I am curious what else would effect cannon performance ,in game,other then caliber . You are far more knowledgeable then I concerning this stuff .
You mean like 75mm/L70? The second number is the barrel length in shell diameters, not the length of the round. (Thous longer barrel and longer round (due to more propellant) often go hand in hand.
And that's what I meant by "caliber isn't everything". It's not only how big your projectile is, but also how fast it is moving (and the design of the round, material quality, and so on.)
The whole thing is a rather complex one... bigger diameter projectiles can indeed often overpower armor (particularly sloped armor) than more powerful, but smaller ones. Shots may penetrate at close & long range, but not in between, due to rounds shattering on the armor at certain ranges...
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Main reason I ask for this to be fixed is that I've seen (and been in) a Tigers that keep going after having a 1000lb bomb land 10 feet from them (feet, not yds). Thats around 750lbs of high explosives going of 10 feet away from a tiger. I think that any tank would be destroyed (or at the very least flipped over) after that.
Even with the 2000lb bombs, the max distance away from one you can put it and still get a kill seems to be around 15yds. Either I'm serisouly misjudging distances outside 10yds when in a plane, or the tiger is nearly invincible to bombs under 2000lbs.
Also, I GUARANTEE that the tracks would take some kind of damage from any bomb bigger than 250lbs going off any closer than 10yds (for the 250lb bomb). You can track tanks with .50's and even .30's, but it seems to take a direct or near direct hit to damage them. Either the tracks are too tough, or the splash damage for anything HE is too weak.
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And to those that say that the tiger is worthless, you obvisouly don't know how to drive one. Before I changed my name, I upped a tiger under heavy enemy aircover. I got killed often, but I took out 3 tanks before the bombs landed on average. People using tigers like that is why the KTD isn't higher than it is currently. A lot of newbs are like "oh cool, I can FINALLY drive a tiger" *ups, looks around and drives forward 200yds, killed from behind by a T-34/85* "how did I die? I was in a tiger and i just randomly exploded. HTC hates me, *generic newb lost his perks whine*, etc".
If you get within 1700yds, you are handing people a large advantage.
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Main reason I ask for this to be fixed is that I've seen (and been in) a Tigers that keep going after having a 1000lb bomb land 10 feet from them (feet, not yds). Thats around 750lbs of high explosives going of 10 feet away from a tiger. I think that any tank would be destroyed (or at the very least flipped over) after that.
Even with the 2000lb bombs, the max distance away from one you can put it and still get a kill seems to be around 15yds. Either I'm serisouly misjudging distances outside 10yds when in a plane, or the tiger is nearly invincible to bombs under 2000lbs.
Also, I GUARANTEE that the tracks would take some kind of damage from any bomb bigger than 250lbs going off any closer than 10yds (for the 250lb bomb). You can track tanks with .50's and even .30's, but it seems to take a direct or near direct hit to damage them. Either the tracks are too tough, or the splash damage for anything HE is too weak.
yet i can kill tigers with 250lbers all the time :headscratch: AND get killed by them?
And to those that say that the tiger is worthless, you obvisouly don't know how to drive one. Before I changed my name, I upped a tiger under heavy enemy aircover. I got killed often, but I took out 3 tanks before the bombs landed on average. People using tigers like that is why the KTD isn't higher than it is currently. A lot of newbs are like "oh cool, I can FINALLY drive a tiger" *ups, looks around and drives forward 200yds, killed from behind by a T-34/85* "how did I die? I was in a tiger and i just randomly exploded. HTC hates me, *generic newb lost his perks whine*, etc".
If you get within 1700yds, you are handing people a large advantage.
i'd say the range that other tanks gain the advantage is more around 1000 yards to 800 yards. and thats only when the tiger's frontal armor isn't facing the enemy tank
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The T-34/85's cannon begins to have some effect on the tiger at around 1600yds (I say 1700yds to give myself some lee way), the M4A3(76)'s at 1300yds, and the panzer's at 1100ys. You can turret them outside of this range, but you are very unlikely to come right out and kill them. This is all from personaly expierence (I'm not so obsessed that I test every cannon in the offline arena), and so may be wrong. But I'm willing to bet that its not far off.
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from what I understand tanks didnt even engage each other in WWII over 1000 yards, or it was very very rare. Most battles were between 500 and 1000. Sherman rounds bounced off at anything over 500 yards, at least thats what the sherman driver on the discovery channel said.....
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Typical scenario as I understand it between Sherman & tiger tank.
Tiger would be dug in, hidden someplace.
Group of 5 shermans come into range. Tiger waits to about 1200-1000 yards, kills the first one.
Other 4 shermans do a flock of birds routine and scatter for cover and position.
Typically as the tiger killed sherman #4 sherman #5 would put one in his rear from inside 500 yards. Preferably inside 300.
The dead shermans would get hauled back, hosed out, repaired and repainted and given to new crews.
It was pretty much luck of the draw who survived and who didn't.
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IMO if you get a 'lucky' Tiger, you can survive many hits. I've sat at a V-base before through multiple precision bomb drops, and lanc carpet bombings, and lived long enough for the VHs to pop (probably about 5 minutes of continuous bombing) and be able to get supplies and land.
It's not normal, but it's the only tank that will survive a 1000lb bomb.
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IMO if you get a 'lucky' Tiger, you can survive many hits. I've sat at a V-base before through multiple precision bomb drops, and lanc carpet bombings, and lived long enough for the VHs to pop (probably about 5 minutes of continuous bombing) and be able to get supplies and land.
It's not normal, but it's the only tank that will survive a 1000lb bomb.
i get lucky all the time spikes... its not luck its skill :aok
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BAR, skill will let you get 5 kills before your turret gets damaged, it DOESN'T keep your turret from getting damaged though. Skill has nothing to do with how the other guy aims, or how dice land (as far as ricochets and damage dealt). Thats completely out of your hands, and you can't affect it regardless of you do. I suppose you could argue that your near misses will rattle the other guy, but if they do, then he likely isn't a good tanker.
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The T-34/85's cannon begins to have some effect on the tiger at around 1600yds (I say 1700yds to give myself some lee way), the M4A3(76)'s at 1300yds, and the panzer's at 1100ys. You can turret them outside of this range, but you are very unlikely to come right out and kill them. This is all from personaly expierence (I'm not so obsessed that I test every cannon in the offline arena), and so may be wrong. But I'm willing to bet that its not far off.
I am sufficiently obsessed.. well at least to test T34/85 vs Tiger offline. The T34/85 does nothing whatsoever to the Tiger frontal armor at 1400 (AP or HVAP). At 1200 the HVAP can just barely penetrate the turret, but will not take it out. The AP still just bounces off. The Tiger can vaporize the T34/85 frontal armor at much longer ranges. (The Tiger is vulnerable to the T34/85 at longer ranges for side or rear shots of course.)
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A Tiger used well is a great tank. A Tiger used poorly is no better than any other tank. There is nothing magical going on and there doesnt appear to be anything that needs to be fixed. But if you have documentation that gives evidence that something is out of adjustment then please enlighten us all.
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You mean like 75mm/L70? The second number is the barrel length in shell diameters, not the length of the round. (Thous longer barrel and longer round (due to more propellant) often go hand in hand.
And that's what I meant by "caliber isn't everything". It's not only how big your projectile is, but also how fast it is moving (and the design of the round, material quality, and so on.)
The whole thing is a rather complex one... bigger diameter projectiles can indeed often overpower armor (particularly sloped armor) than more powerful, but smaller ones. Shots may penetrate at close & long range, but not in between, due to rounds shattering on the armor at certain ranges...
My bad it is barrel length not round . heheh I think it is still expressed in calibers . Snailman do you know if case hardening is modeled ? If all steel is the same in game thats a huge variable not to model .
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A Tiger used well is a great tank. A Tiger used poorly is no better than any other tank. There is nothing magical going on and there doesnt appear to be anything that needs to be fixed. But if you have documentation that gives evidence that something is out of adjustment then please enlighten us all.
A tiger thats turret face is so easy to kill is poorly modeled .
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BAR, skill will let you get 5 kills before your turret gets damaged, it DOESN'T keep your turret from getting damaged though. Skill has nothing to do with how the other guy aims, or how dice land (as far as ricochets and damage dealt). Thats completely out of your hands, and you can't affect it regardless of you do. I suppose you could argue that your near misses will rattle the other guy, but if they do, then he likely isn't a good tanker.
im sorry to say this but you CAN affect all of that. its simple, use the tiger correctly. Yeah the turrets slow, so when pointing your tiger to the enemy when far off point the side to the enemy so when shot at you can roll away faster. when in close switch to the frontal armor. All my tigers die from other tigers or planes and the rare firefly if i dont kill it first...
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Please leave the tigers as they are.
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A tiger thats turret face is so easy to kill is poorly modeled .
If you use a tiger correctly and point the front to the enemy (protecting the lower weaker point with terrain or what have you) it is pretty much unkillable. Outside of that if you keep moving the enemy cant make use of your weaker points unless you are outnumbered which is the way it should be. Every tank in the game can die to one shot or one bomb despite the way people think about GVs.
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No BAR, nothing you can do will affect how well the other guy aims. Period. Thats a fact. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you can do will affect how well the P-38 aims his bombs either.
And, exposing the side armor in a long rang engagment isn't the smartest thing you can do (unless you are behind the front line as opposed to engaging the first tank you see, and from your post I take it you assume it is also the furthest forward) as most of my tactics involve working my way into the range where I can turret you, and then kill your engine as you turn tail and attempt flee. Exposing your side armor makes it easier for the M4A3 you didn't notice to slip around to your right/left (depending on wich side your rear is facing), and put a round in your engine, making the whole point of putting your side to the enemy irrelivant.
And I think I have a film of that tiger at V85, but I'm not sure. It was a couple weeks ago, and I've attained other films since then.
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No BAR, nothing you can do will affect how well the other guy aims. Period. Thats a fact. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you can do will affect how well the P-38 aims his bombs either.
And, exposing the side armor in a long rang engagment isn't the smartest thing you can do (unless you are behind the front line as opposed to engaging the first tank you see, and from your post I take it you assume it is also the furthest forward) as most of my tactics involve working my way into the range where I can turret you, and then kill your engine as you turn tail and attempt flee. Exposing your side armor makes it easier for the M4A3 you didn't notice to slip around to your right/left (depending on wich side your rear is facing), and put a round in your engine, making the whole point of putting your side to the enemy irrelivant.
And I think I have a film of that tiger at V85, but I'm not sure. It was a couple weeks ago, and I've attained other films since then.
1: you can affect the outcome of what they do by thinking fast and good maneuvering. GVing is like Chess: Make the right move.
2:I'm sorry but if you let the enemy get too close to you to turret or kill your engine while you are in a tiger then you aren't the GVer you say you are. Keeping your distance allows you to use side armor due to its thickness that is still as thick or thicker than all the other tanks frontal armor, use the fact that you should already know what your against and turning sideways allows you to slip away fast and take a new position to allow for more kills (a.k.a. TRUST ME, ive done it many times). (along with this you should never be alone on a battlefield, no matter what GV you are. Teamwork allows you to stop flanking and it opens up more tactical decisions even if you only have one team member.) Sitting back in a tiger covering your teams movements and taking the brunt of the fire is a great tactical decision. You put yourself at the greatest risk for the greatest outcome.
Yet again i say that a good GVer in general wont lose a tiger to other GVs. Stupid decisions make you lose your tiger, such as limited terrain movement, tunnel vision, spawning in a very hot zone, etc.
3: The distance i'm talking about is the distance the tiger side armor gets shell pings off of? a T34 or a pnzr or a sherman wont penetrate the tiger side armor and the frontal turret armor...
Read 'em and weep Nemesis. I just shut you down
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I remember back in AH1 dropping both 500lb bombs from my Mossie's bomb bay, one exploded about 5ft from the Tiger and the other struck the Tiger (displayed a hit sprite) and all I got for it was the Tiger driver (eskimo as I recall) exclaiming "That was LOUD!!!"