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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: grumpy37 on June 10, 2010, 04:34:37 PM

Title: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: grumpy37 on June 10, 2010, 04:34:37 PM
My question is if a player is using a SAT connection do they lag from our point of view.  Sat has a high speed download but uses dial up to upload.  That would make me think that the Sat user receives incoming packets much faster then they send them out.  Would this cause a warp or lag in the game? 
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: SEseph on June 10, 2010, 04:46:25 PM
Makes the person using it seem like a UFO and makes others very unhappy because it's hard to hit something that isn't really there. I am remembering this from a guy a year or two ago. Dunno if they've made it better since, but that pesky delay isn't nice for real time.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: AAJagerX on June 10, 2010, 04:59:38 PM
Before we went with RF internet we had looked at Hughesnet and Wildblue.  Both of the companies stated that it'd take 1 to 1.5 seconds for the signal to get to the sat and back.  I imagine with a ping of 1000-1500ms that things would be VERY warpy indeed.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: grumpy37 on June 10, 2010, 05:01:53 PM
yeah well kinda "conveniant" that at least 4 guys from the same squad happen to have sat net now that didnt before and now are all but impossible to shoot down and bomb...
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: AAJagerX on June 10, 2010, 05:04:10 PM
yeah well kinda "conveniant" that at least 4 guys from the same squad happen to have sat net now that didnt before and now are all but impossible to shoot down and bomb...

Probably not all that great on their end either I imagine.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: grumpy37 on June 10, 2010, 05:07:08 PM
well its in MW so not very populated but I will say that recently their scores would infer otherwise....    :headscratch:
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: AAJagerX on June 10, 2010, 05:13:40 PM
well its in MW so not very populated but I will say that recently their scores would infer otherwise....    :headscratch:

I can't imagine someone switching to an inferior service just to gain some hokey advantage.  Then again, stranger things have happened.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: AirFlyer on June 10, 2010, 05:14:11 PM
My squad mate has a Sat. connection, and he warps from my point of view. Sometimes it's terrible other times barely noticeable but can't be helped really.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Tec on June 10, 2010, 05:18:19 PM
Sometimes it's terrible other times barely noticeable but can't be helped really.

Whether they are visibly warping or not they are still horribly laggy.  You can usually tell if someone is on sat. due to the fact that when you shoot them they fly about 5 miles away before they blow up, and when you get shot by them they are aimed in the opposite direction.  The "can't really be helped" is laughable.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: AAJagerX on June 10, 2010, 05:18:26 PM
My squad mate has a Sat. connection, and he warps from my point of view. Sometimes it's terrible other times barely noticeable but can't be helped really.

If you're in a rural area (like myself) your options are extremely limited.  Kinda like duck tape...  It may not be the best way to go about it but hey, if it works, it works.  :D

EDIT:  RF is much better than sat by the way.  Outstanding ping, but bandwidth does suffer sometimes.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: 1701E on June 10, 2010, 05:35:59 PM
Probably not all that great on their end either I imagine.


That depends.  If the satellite user does whatever they can to minimize the ping the gameplay can be very smooth.  For me I see no warping and if I do it's one of two reasons: There is an overcast and thus blocking the signal OR the other user is warping so badly it is showing on my screen.  I rarely warp in the sense that most think of it (normally get 100-200yrd warps every few minutes) but from my end it is always smooth.  Satellite users are about 1-1.5seconds out of sync with the rest of the game thus get shot at odd angles or shoot people from odd angles.  I normally end up shooting people about 1.2 seconds (1200ms) before they see my nose getting in position, but I get shot when the enemy shoots where I was 1.2 seconds ago.  It makes fighting difficult because the low-ping user won't see a merge break until ~1.2 seconds after we broke thus causing collisions often.

Satellite will never be good for real-time gaming, but it can be "tamed" to a point that's it's bearable.  While high-ping is not good, it's the people who have other troubles you should be trying to convince to fix their connection.  A 1200ms ping with 1% packet loss is better then a 300ms ping with 95% packet loss.  I've seen many 100-300ms pings that had almost complete packet loss where as satellite I use has high ping with almost no packet loss and they are the ones I normally see getting told their warping is impossible to fight against.

Now if everyone were to start complaining to the local cable companies in the laggers city/area maybe they'd consider extending coverage and thus stopping the lag.  I know here the amount of calls/e-mails that have been sent for extended coverage is finally slowly being answered. :)
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: grumpy37 on June 10, 2010, 05:37:12 PM
Anyone that can do sat can do just dial up as well.  For playability for the rest of the players that would be the better option.

That depends.  If the satellite user does whatever they can to minimize the ping the gameplay can be very smooth.  For me I see no warping and if I do it's one of two reasons: There is an overcast and thus blocking the signal OR the other user is warping so badly it is showing on my screen.  I rarely warp in the sense that most think of it (normally get 100-200yrd warps every few minutes) but from my end it is always smooth.  Satellite users are about 1-1.5seconds out of sync with the rest of the game thus get shot at odd angles or shoot people from odd angles.  I normally end up shooting people about 1.2 seconds (1200ms) before they see my nose getting in position, but I get shot when the enemy shoots where I was 1.2 seconds ago.  It makes fighting difficult because the low-ping user won't see a merge break until ~1.2 seconds after we broke thus causing collisions often.

Satellite will never be good for real-time gaming, but it can be "tamed" to a point that's it's bearable.  While high-ping is not good, it's the people who have other troubles you should be trying to convince to fix their connection.  A 1200ms ping with 1% packet loss is better then a 300ms ping with 95% packet loss.  I've seen many 100-300ms pings that had almost complete packet loss where as satellite I use has high ping with almost no packet loss and they are the ones I normally see getting told their warping is impossible to fight against.

Now if everyone were to start complaining to the local cable companies in the laggers city/area maybe they'd consider extending coverage and thus stopping the lag.  I know here the amount of calls/e-mails that have been sent for extended coverage is finally slowly being answered. :)

this lag explains why these players are nearly impossible to bomb in a moving GV, specially a tiger since they require a more direct hit.  This gives them a great advantage because they can learn to lead their shot because they know they always lag yet we have no clue they are lagging until it is to late....  Maybe i should try sat instead of my cable connection  LOL
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: WMLute on June 10, 2010, 05:41:58 PM
Anyone that can do sat can do just dial up as well.  For playability for the rest of the players that would be the better option.

I was forced into sat. as my broadband option for @ 6months..

I ended up dropping $9.95 for a dial up account to fly on.

Use the Sat. to surf and d/l stuff and the dial-up to fly on.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: grumpy37 on June 10, 2010, 05:43:58 PM
I was forced into sat. as my broadband option for @ 6months..

I ended up dropping $9.95 for a dial up account to fly on.

Use the Sat. to surf and d/l stuff and the dial-up to fly on.


Im guessing it wouldnt be possible for HiTech to not allow sat users.....    :pray
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: AirFlyer on June 10, 2010, 05:44:56 PM
The "can't really be helped" is laughable.

And your suggestion would be...?
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: WMLute on June 10, 2010, 05:49:46 PM

Im guessing it wouldnt be possible for HiTech to not allow sat users.....    :pray

I wouldn't want him to.

WMTom is in Iraq right now and the only way to fly is using the Sat. they provide there.

The diff. is he has no choice but to use Sat.

Players in the States have a choice but it appears most are just too cheap to drop the 10 bucks to stop warping.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: falcon23 on June 10, 2010, 05:58:50 PM
I wouldn't want him to.

WMTom is in Iraq right now and the only way to fly is using the Sat. they provide there.

The diff. is he has no choice but to use Sat.

Players in the States have a choice but it appears most are just too cheap to drop the 10 bucks to stop warping.
 
  Now,now lute..NO putting people in boxes...I used to be on sat..Sucks,but its all we had for like 2 years until a wireless company showed up...It sucks just as much for the guy on sat as it does for others around him...
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: WMLute on June 10, 2010, 06:01:52 PM
 
  Now,now lute..NO putting people in boxes...I used to be on sat..Sucks,but its all we had for like 2 years until a wireless company showed up...It sucks just as much for the guy on sat as it does for others around him...

So you are telling me you didn't have a phone line and that dial-up wasn't available?
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: grumpy37 on June 10, 2010, 06:04:06 PM
seems to not suck to bad for the guys im talking about.  Their game play has changed 10 fold since "upgrading" to sat.....   
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Delirium on June 10, 2010, 06:04:42 PM
WMTom is in Iraq right now and the only way to fly is using the Sat. they provide there.

That is probably the only good reason to be on sat in AH, imho.

There is a certain player that flew on sat and sort of learned how far he was lagging behind. On anyone's FE, they saw his nose pointed away from them and he still got kills.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: DrBone1 on June 10, 2010, 06:07:43 PM
Had a #s guy in Blue before the reset omg! lol i think you guys kno the rest  :salute
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: grumpy37 on June 10, 2010, 08:26:51 PM
LOL  i just killed one of the guys im talking about.  He was in an M8 and i was in a tiger.  Point blank i hit him and he blew up at least 5 seconds later!
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: falcon23 on June 10, 2010, 09:27:56 PM
Actually had a phone line but it was in so much disrepair that everytime it rained,and not much,it was out for 3-5 days at a time..
 Sat was ONLY way for internet.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: fudgums on June 10, 2010, 09:53:33 PM
My SAT must not be that bad, only when multiple people are on my connection is when it is bad.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: AWwrgwy on June 10, 2010, 10:27:54 PM
The problem with satellite is 22300 miles up and 22300 back. 

The speed of electricity is the same on a phone line as it is on a T-1.

How much data does AH2 take anyway?



wrongway
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Tec on June 11, 2010, 12:21:47 AM
And your suggestion would be...?

Lute nailed it.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: bcadoo on June 11, 2010, 01:00:34 AM
The problem with satellite is 22300 miles up and 22300 back. 

The speed of electricity is the same on a phone line as it is on a T-1.

How much data does AH2 take anyway?



wrongway


That would only equate to 240 milliseconds of delay....where is the other 1000 milliseconds coming from?
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: froger on June 11, 2010, 01:05:35 AM
My TW cable (as i understand it) originates at a very large satellite somewhere in my neighborhood.
my connection seems to be good but whats the difference.

does it not all come from a satellite ?



froger    
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: bj229r on June 11, 2010, 07:59:46 AM
The problem with satellite is 22300 miles up and 22300 back. 

The speed of electricity is the same on a phone line as it is on a T-1.

How much data does AH2 take anyway?



wrongway
I've been doing this, WB and AW dialup since '95. Just have to remember not to load big web pages on climbout, often get booted. At any rate, I get steady 200ms, does fine.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: hitech on June 11, 2010, 09:13:55 AM
Anyone that can do sat can do just dial up as well.  For playability for the rest of the players that would be the better option.
this lag explains why these players are nearly impossible to bomb in a moving GV, specially a tiger since they require a more direct hit.  This gives them a great advantage because they can learn to lead their shot because they know they always lag yet we have no clue they are lagging until it is to late....  Maybe i should try sat instead of my cable connection  LOL

Lag has nothing to do with how you hit something, what you see is what you get. How much you must lead a target has absolutely nothing to do with lag. And is the same for everyone.

The only difference with lag is it will take a little longer before you see them explode. And take them longer to hear a hit.

Lag has nothing to do with warping. Think of lag being exactly the same as watching a film 1 hour later. Intermittent connections is what will cause warps.

In a vehicle, I really can not think of any advantage having a longer lag.

HiTech
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: dmdchief on June 11, 2010, 09:19:58 AM
"The problem with satellite is 22300 miles up and 22300 back.  

The speed of electricity is the same on a phone line as it is on a T-1."

WELL GUESS WHAT,

radio signals (sat signals) travel at the speed of light 186,000 miles per second,  
electricity travels at   ready     186,000 miles per second

it isn't the speed of the signal but rather all the extra handling that get in the way
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Mystic2 on June 11, 2010, 09:35:29 AM
I was forced into sat. as my broadband option for @ 6months..

I ended up dropping $9.95 for a dial up account to fly on.

Use the Sat. to surf and d/l stuff and the dial-up to fly on.


That is what I do also. 
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: bj229r on June 11, 2010, 09:47:26 AM

Lag has nothing to do with warping. Think of lag being exactly the same as watching a film 1 hour later. Intermittent connections is what will cause warps.

HiTech
That's the most understandable explanation for this stuff I've ever seen
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: grumpy37 on June 11, 2010, 10:03:30 AM
Lag has nothing to do with how you hit something, what you see is what you get. How much you must lead a target has absolutely nothing to do with lag. And is the same for everyone.

The only difference with lag is it will take a little longer before you see them explode. And take them longer to hear a hit.

Lag has nothing to do with warping. Think of lag being exactly the same as watching a film 1 hour later. Intermittent connections is what will cause warps.

In a vehicle, I really can not think of any advantage having a longer lag.

HiTech


Ok, I understand that part but then that also means they do not "DIE" when you shoot them but when the lag catches up correct?  I shot a wirby the other at 400 away and he continued firing for at least 3-5 second after before his turret started smoking.  I know its not me, i check my connection all the time and my ping is in the 50-60 range.  Ive had this same thing happen with other tanks as well.  I fire at them, see a hit sprite, they fire back after the hit and we both die...
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: 1701E on June 11, 2010, 10:31:15 AM
Thanks HT. :)

As for the "get dial-up too" thing, are you gonna pay for it?  We already pay $80/month for Satellite, an extra 10 isn't exactly "cheap".  Then add in the fact that dial-up ties up the land-line (40/month) when used, so we'd have to use the cell phones (100+/month).  No, we can't drop satellite and go full Dial-up, we have speed required programs.

Like I said "A 1200ms ping with 1% packet loss is better then a 300ms ping with 95% packet loss." so go complaining to those people.  Banning satellite because a few people make you mad?  What about those who use it and people enjoy fighting?  Why not ban those who have more then 2% packet loss at any given time?

And yes Grumpy,we die when we hear/see the hit, not when you hear/see it.  3-5 seconds is extreme though.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: tf15pin on June 11, 2010, 11:03:57 AM
"The problem with satellite is 22300 miles up and 22300 back.  

The speed of electricity is the same on a phone line as it is on a T-1."

WELL GUESS WHAT,

radio signals (sat signals) travel at the speed of light 186,000 miles per second,  
electricity travels at   ready     186,000 miles per second

it isn't the speed of the signal but rather all the extra handling that get in the way

The speed of a signal depends on the refractive index of the medium in which it is propagating. [n=( relative permability*relative permativity)^1/2 , speed in medium = speed in vacuum / n]  So a signal propagating through free space (n~1) is faster than a signal propagating through glass fiber (n~1.5). In all this does not contribute significantly to lag, maybe a factor of 2 or three between a free space signal and one propagating in a high index material.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: grumpy37 on June 11, 2010, 11:25:21 AM
The speed of a signal depends on the refractive index of the medium in which it is propagating. [n=( relative permability*relative permativity)^1/2 , speed in medium = speed in vacuum / n]  So a signal propagating through free space (n~1) is faster than a signal propagating through glass fiber (n~1.5). In all this does not contribute significantly to lag, maybe a factor of 2 or three between a free space signal and one propagating in a high index material.


 :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch:

Can we get that in English please?  LOL  Anyway i agree with some kind of limit to the amount or percentage of packet loss and you get kicked or not allowed to log in.  Many other online games do the same thing though its usually ping related.  I know that would piss off a certain amount of players and im not saying its what should be done here.  The packet loss reason for warping makes sense but is irritating at the same time.  Seems certain players tend to warp when it works for them, for example when guns are fired on their six.  One particular player seems to do this on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: AWwrgwy on June 11, 2010, 11:31:07 AM
"The problem with satellite is 22300 miles up and 22300 back.  

The speed of electricity is the same on a phone line as it is on a T-1."

WELL GUESS WHAT,

radio signals (sat signals) travel at the speed of light 186,000 miles per second,  
electricity travels at   ready     186,000 miles per second

it isn't the speed of the signal but rather all the extra handling that get in the way

Exactly.  Not speed but distance.  20x the distance.


wrongway
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: hitech on June 11, 2010, 12:17:35 PM
The speed of a signal depends on the refractive index of the medium in which it is propagating. [n=( relative permability*relative permativity)^1/2 , speed in medium = speed in vacuum / n]  So a signal propagating through free space (n~1) is faster than a signal propagating through glass fiber (n~1.5). In all this does not contribute significantly to lag, maybe a factor of 2 or three between a free space signal and one propagating in a high index material.

I have just learned something new.

HiTech
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: grumpy37 on June 11, 2010, 01:07:36 PM
I have just learned something new.

HiTech


Does that not happen very often...? ;)
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: greens on June 11, 2010, 01:09:46 PM
<--not saying anything
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: fudgums on June 11, 2010, 01:29:42 PM
3-5 seconds never happen to me, its more like 1/2 to 1 second. If it gets bad, I don't fly.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: bj229r on June 11, 2010, 02:06:12 PM
The speed of a signal depends on the refractive index of the medium in which it is propagating. [n=( relative permability*relative permativity)^1/2 , speed in medium = speed in vacuum / n]  So a signal propagating through free space (n~1) is faster than a signal propagating through glass fiber (n~1.5). In all this does not contribute significantly to lag, maybe a factor of 2 or three between a free space signal and one propagating in a high index material.
I think you're the guy I used to sit behind and copy off of in high school!
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Larry on June 11, 2010, 02:22:59 PM
Players in the States have a choice but it appears most are just too cheap to drop the 10 bucks to stop warping.

it costs more then 10 to maintain a dial up connection.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: hitech on June 11, 2010, 02:39:43 PM

Does that not happen very often...? ;)

Not something as fundamental as this.

HiTech
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: AirFlyer on June 11, 2010, 03:06:50 PM
it costs more then 10 to maintain a dial up connection.  :rolleyes:

True enough, I don't remember anymore since it's been a long time since I had dial-up but whats the cost of having a second line installed in a household these days and maintained.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Tec on June 11, 2010, 03:37:40 PM
My Econ 101 teacher used to like to drill into us that it's all about choices.  Even when it seems like we don't have a choice, we always do.  You can only get Sat because you live out in the boonies?  So what, that's your choice to live out there, you know you are going to miss out on some things that others who live in more populated areas will have.  Got a Sat package because you got a good deal on it?  So what, Sat is know to be crap for gaming so why would someone who games get it?  If you already have a land line Netzero is $9.99 a month.  Now you can choose to play, but this will cause your phone to be busy(which is nice, no interruptions).  If you're too concerned about missing a call, and want a second phone line... that's your choice.  You can chose to just miss calls, or you can choose to play.  Oh you have a 1200ms ping and it's rock solid. AWESOME! Except the fact that 1200ms=1.2 seconds. 

1.2 seconds in air combat is an eternity.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: fudgums on June 11, 2010, 03:41:27 PM
My Econ 101 teacher used to like to drill into us that it's all about choices.  Even when it seems like we don't have a choice, we always do.  You can only get Sat because you live out in the boonies?  So what, that's your choice to live out there, you know you are going to miss out on some things that others who live in more populated areas will have.  Got a Sat package because you got a good deal on it?  So what, Sat is know to be crap for gaming so why would someone who games get it?  If you already have a land line Netzero is $9.99 a month.  Now you can choose to play, but this will cause your phone to be busy(which is nice, no interruptions).  If you're too concerned about missing a call, and want a second phone line... that's your choice.  You can chose to just miss calls, or you can choose to play.  Oh you have a 1200ms ping and it's rock solid. AWESOME! Except the fact that 1200ms=1.2 seconds. 

1.2 seconds in air combat is an eternity.

some people really exaggerate their ping rates, by a lot in most cases. If Im constantly over 1000ms, I don't fly or just log off completely. I'm usually around 500ms, which isn't bad considering that when I was on dialup, it was around 250-300ms.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: bj229r on June 11, 2010, 04:24:16 PM
My Econ 101 teacher used to like to drill into us that it's all about choices.  Even when it seems like we don't have a choice, we always do.  You can only get Sat because you live out in the boonies?  So what, that's your choice to live out there, you know you are going to miss out on some things that others who live in more populated areas will have.  Got a Sat package because you got a good deal on it?  So what, Sat is know to be crap for gaming so why would someone who games get it?  If you already have a land line Netzero is $9.99 a month.  Now you can choose to play, but this will cause your phone to be busy(which is nice, no interruptions).  If you're too concerned about missing a call, and want a second phone line... that's your choice.  You can chose to just miss calls, or you can choose to play.  Oh you have a 1200ms ping and it's rock solid. AWESOME! Except the fact that 1200ms=1.2 seconds. 

1.2 seconds in air combat is an eternity.
Damn right :aok

I live in said boonies, and the only reason I DONT have SAT (I guess it's about 1/2 the speed of DSL?) is this game--I'd still have to pay for 2nd phone line and dial-up service
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Bronk on June 11, 2010, 04:58:37 PM
<--not saying anything
Good.. you shouldn't.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Bronk on June 11, 2010, 05:02:32 PM
some people really exaggerate their ping rates, by a lot in most cases. If Im constantly over 1000ms, I don't fly or just log off completely. I'm usually around 500ms, which isn't bad considering that when I was on dialup, it was around 250-300ms.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,68316.0.html
1) Your ping is some what irrelevant to the servers. If it is below 300ms, then you are golden. I see complaints from people complaining about their ping going from 10 to 60. To Aces High, you have the same connection at those rates.  
However, the best connection is one that is steady without wide swings in the packet latencies.


Better off with a stable dial up.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: greens on June 11, 2010, 05:31:39 PM
Good.. you shouldn't.
                                                                                         
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Ardy123 on June 11, 2010, 05:34:23 PM
keep a lid on it greens, I know you wanna talk...  ;)
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Ghastly on June 12, 2010, 07:48:15 AM
"The problem with satellite is 22300 miles up and 22300 back.  

The speed of electricity is the same on a phone line as it is on a T-1."

WELL GUESS WHAT,

radio signals (sat signals) travel at the speed of light 186,000 miles per second,  
electricity travels at   ready     186,000 miles per second

it isn't the speed of the signal but rather all the extra handling that get in the way

Dmdchief would get a prize - if there were one, that is  - for pointing out (correctly) that the distance isn't the biggest part of the problem.

The typical propagation delay (i.e. "signal transmission time")  for a satellite connection is not horribly unreasonable - it's on the rough order of about 250 ms (round trip).   And 1/4 second is right in the range of the latency associated with a telephone modem.  So why, we ask, is satellite so much worse (in general) than a modem for flying?

The real problem is packet queuing and scheduling - remember, a satellite connection isn't "point to point", like a telephone line.  It's a radio broadcast - and you are sharing the bandwidth of the satellite channel with every other satellite user.  And as a result, by far the largest component of latency on a satellite connection comes from the time it takes for the system to get around to sending you your packets, and in you waiting to send yours up - imagine 10,000 laptop users trying to share one WIFI connection and you start to get the idea.  

When you think about it, it's pretty close to miracle how far sat connections (speaking generally) have come in the last few years in eliminating jitter.  If there's one thing that's more detrimental to Internet-based game play than latency, it's drastic variations in latency.  Jitter is what causes warping, not latency.  

And you might as well give up - many of the folks who've never lived in a truly remote area just don't get it and aren't going to.  They have an entirely inaccurate set of preconceived assumptions based upon their own experiences that's in no way representative of the reality you face.  You might as well be discussing calculus with a hamster.

<S>

Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: hlbly on June 12, 2010, 09:02:03 AM
I live rather rural myself . I have one question for those of you that live in the brush . Why not dsl ? No need for second phone line as dsl uses different freq. then phone does . It is competitively priced , while not as fast as cable . Mine seems to be far more stable then over sold cable system in town . My variance in delay never gets to 100 ms . It is not so good for the dl of files . It does seem to work great for the game . The equipment is fairly old as well . Not long ago your only choice was a party line ,where I live .
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Bronk on June 12, 2010, 09:27:54 AM
I live rather rural myself . I have one question for those of you that live in the brush . Why not dsl ? No need for second phone line as dsl uses different freq. then phone does . It is competitively priced , while not as fast as cable . Mine seems to be far more stable then over sold cable system in town . My variance in delay never gets to 100 ms . It is not so good for the dl of files . It does seem to work great for the game . The equipment is fairly old as well . Not long ago your only choice was a party line ,where I live .
I believe distance dependent from a hub.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Ghastly on June 12, 2010, 09:58:20 AM
I believe distance dependent from a hub.

To elaborate, it's dependent upon the wire length from the central office - and at distances of much over 5000 ft, things get iffy.  At over 15000 ft, you probably won't get a solution at any speed.  (And in some instances, it can be mind boggling how the wire travels - a building a block from the CO might not be within the distance specs)

And anyway... hilbly's question is a great example that highlights what I meant by the differing worldview....

Just as one example, there are places in Arthur county Nebraska - which is by far not the most rural of areas in the continental United States - where the straight line distance from the CO to the telephone approaches 40 miles.  (I spent part of my time growing up there, and in fact went to a one room school there for 2 years - and my brother in law's family owns the telephone company that services the area - he and another coworker/co-owner maintains it.)  

Most people can't even imagine a telephone company that services roughly 1300 square miles that has a total of less than 5 owner/employees - or that services and maintains every piece of equipment (from handset to switch) for well over a 1000 square miles with 2 people.  

And cable based Internet (or even TV)?  DSL?  FIOS?  Yeah, sure - maybe in this century.

And there are plenty of places that are even more rural.  

<S>
 
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: fudgums on June 12, 2010, 10:06:25 AM
.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: 1701E on June 12, 2010, 10:24:58 AM
I live rather rural myself . I have one question for those of you that live in the brush . Why not dsl ? No need for second phone line as dsl uses different freq. then phone does . It is competitively priced , while not as fast as cable . Mine seems to be far more stable then over sold cable system in town . My variance in delay never gets to 100 ms . It is not so good for the dl of files . It does seem to work great for the game . The equipment is fairly old as well . Not long ago your only choice was a party line ,where I live .


Want to know some BS?  The Cable wires stop 4 miles from my house and the closest DSL hub is 3.2 miles away.  From what I've read the max range of a 1.5MBps connection from DSL is 3.1 miles.  I still hold hope that cable/DSL will extend coverage to more areas throughout the country quickly though.
Around here anyways we are getting all new Cable internet wires and more DSL hubs (or whatever it is that extends coverage) so there is hope. :)
I would love DSL personally, cheap, reliable, fast, no bandwidth, low ping, etc.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: bj229r on June 12, 2010, 10:32:32 AM
I live rather rural myself . I have one question for those of you that live in the brush . Why not dsl ? No need for second phone line as dsl uses different freq. then phone does . It is competitively priced , while not as fast as cable . Mine seems to be far more stable then over sold cable system in town . My variance in delay never gets to 100 ms . It is not so good for the dl of files . It does seem to work great for the game . The equipment is fairly old as well . Not long ago your only choice was a party line ,where I live .
DSL runs on whatever copper is on the pole I believe, but there has to be equipment for it every couple thousand feet or so, and that is not going to be forthcoming from Verizon, as they are losing their arse in the residential market. Cox, on the other hand, ran cable into my area...but alas, they stopped like ONE FRIKKIN MILE AWAY!. At 8 houses or so per mile, not cost effective, and the county, who GRANTED them a monopoly, isnt going to force them
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: fudgums on June 12, 2010, 11:50:07 AM

Want to know some BS?  The Cable wires stop 4 miles from my house and the closest DSL hub is 3.2 miles away.  From what I've read the max range of a 1.5MBps connection from DSL is 3.1 miles.  I still hold hope that cable/DSL will extend coverage to more areas throughout the country quickly though.
Around here anyways we are getting all new Cable internet wires and more DSL hubs (or whatever it is that extends coverage) so there is hope. :)
I would love DSL personally, cheap, reliable, fast, no bandwidth, low ping, etc.

Im in the same boat.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Bear76 on June 12, 2010, 01:45:20 PM
I live rather rural myself . I have one question for those of you that live in the brush . Why not dsl ? No need for second phone line as dsl uses different freq. then phone does . It is competitively priced , while not as fast as cable . Mine seems to be far more stable then over sold cable system in town . My variance in delay never gets to 100 ms . It is not so good for the dl of files . It does seem to work great for the game . The equipment is fairly old as well . Not long ago your only choice was a party line ,where I live .

Party lines, those were a hoot
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: AAJagerX on June 12, 2010, 06:01:00 PM
some people really exaggerate their ping rates, by a lot in most cases. If Im constantly over 1000ms, I don't fly or just log off completely. I'm usually around 500ms, which isn't bad considering that when I was on dialup, it was around 250-300ms.

With our RF connection we usually get between 40-120 ping.  Time warner cable was 120-300.  Verizon aircard was 170-450. 
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: grumpy37 on June 12, 2010, 10:21:49 PM
Interesting to see all the different pings and such.  I didnt notice much of a difference between DSL and Cable but i live very close to the hub for DSL. 
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: thndregg on June 12, 2010, 11:18:22 PM
I live rather rural myself . I have one question for those of you that live in the brush . Why not dsl ? No need for second phone line as dsl uses different freq. then phone does . It is competitively priced , while not as fast as cable . Mine seems to be far more stable then over sold cable system in town . My variance in delay never gets to 100 ms . It is not so good for the dl of files . It does seem to work great for the game . The equipment is fairly old as well . Not long ago your only choice was a party line ,where I live .

Ordinarily, I have had little trouble with my DSL. As of late, it has been crap for the past week & a half. I simply can't play. Qwest's automated help is a joke. Live help is not much better. And this is what I'm faced with. Try playing with this sort of mess. :rolleyes:
(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/270/206166041.jpg)
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: WMLute on June 12, 2010, 11:36:24 PM
I miss my old internet setup when I was in Oklahoma City.

I had a full T1 that was managed by AT&T who also hosts the AcesHigh servers.

From my house the first hop was to Dallas and I was at AcesHigh within 4-5 hops total ALL on AT&T.

14ms smooth as silk.

The downside of course was I lived in Oklahoma City.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: AAJagerX on June 13, 2010, 03:09:08 AM
Ordinarily, I have had little trouble with my DSL. As of late, it has been crap for the past week & a half. I simply can't play. Qwest's automated help is a joke. Live help is not much better. And this is what I'm faced with. Try playing with this sort of mess. :rolleyes:
(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/270/206166041.jpg)

Have you sent that info to your ISP?

EDIT: Are you on WiFi and using Windows 7?
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: thndregg on June 13, 2010, 09:10:28 AM
Have you sent that info to your ISP?

EDIT: Are you on WiFi and using Windows 7?

Go to Qwest's website and tell me how I can do it. My first thought was presenting this sample to them. Their help system/e-mail method does not allow for sending images such as this. Otherwise I'd jump all over it. The other thing that irritates me is Qwest took over and closed the local telephone company's office last year. I now have to travel about an hour to their office in Boise, ID. to get this straightened out.

WiFi? No. Windows 7? Yes.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: hitech on June 13, 2010, 09:22:56 AM
Go to Qwest's website and tell me how I can do it. My first thought was presenting this sample to them. Their help system/e-mail method does not allow for sending images such as this. Otherwise I'd jump all over it. The other thing that irritates me is Qwest took over and closed the local telephone company's office last year. I now have to travel about an hour to their office in Boise, ID. to get this straightened out.

WiFi? No. Windows 7? Yes.

Ping each hop on that list going backwards.  (or binary search method or forward your choice) At some point the packet lost will stop and you will have found the point with the problem.

It will also Isolate if the problem is yours.


HiTech
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: thndregg on June 13, 2010, 09:45:14 AM
Ping each hop on that list going backwards.  (or binary search method or forward your choice) At some point the packet lost will stop and you will have found the point with the problem.

It will also Isolate if the problem is yours.


HiTech

Thanks Dale. I'm still tinkering with it.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Ghastly on June 13, 2010, 11:54:37 AM
Thundregg, I'm pretty sure that Pingplotter already does the "ping each hop" after establishing the route, so you are seeing the same thing you'd see if you worked forward/backward/binary stepping as Hitech suggested.  And given that you are seeing significant loss right out the gate, I'd suspect something on your own network, or (90% plus certainty), something likely wrong with or at your router.

<S>
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: thndregg on June 13, 2010, 12:37:34 PM
Thundregg, I'm pretty sure that Pingplotter already does the "ping each hop" after establishing the route, so you are seeing the same thing you'd see if you worked forward/backward/binary stepping as Hitech suggested.  And given that you are seeing significant loss right out the gate, I'd suspect something on your own network, or (90% plus certainty), something likely wrong with or at your router.

<S>


If I follow you, that is this, correct? My network connection and DSL modem so far as I can tell work normally.
(http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/5929/10002copy.png)
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: thndregg on June 13, 2010, 12:41:10 PM
This is hop 2. That is where the trouble sits, as far as I know.
(http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/5083/boisdslgw10202boisqwest.png)

EDIT: I doubleclicked every hop. Some hops still do not show, regardless. This is a fresh graph.
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4228/206166041.png)
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Ghastly on June 14, 2010, 11:52:07 AM
Exactly

10.0.0.2 is almost certainly your router (or DSL Modem with built in ROUTER if that's what you have), while 67.41.38.202 is the next device/router that is visible to TCP/IP on the Qwest network that you connect to.  

If you are connected:

[COMPUTER]<->[ROUTER]<--->[DSL MODEM] <--> [REST OF QWEST NETWORK]

then 67.41.38.202 would be the Ethernet hardware of the DSL modem, but chances are far better that you are connected:

[COMPUTER]<->[DSL MODEM with built-in ROUTER] <--> [REST OF QWEST NETWORK]

So that the 67.41.38.202 address represents the first router on the other side of your DSL modem.

The modem portion of the DSL modem (and the rest of the infrastructure up to the next router) is "invisible" as far as TCP/IP is concerned, so either the modem or the Qwest network (lines or hardware) to the first router is bad or overloaded.

Since you have no problem's pinging the 10.0.0.2 address, you've nearly eliminated the possibility of something inside your ethernet network - or in the software in your computer - interfering with your traffic.

But one of the best ways for the  "rest of the infrastructure up to the next router" to be bad is to have things plugged in without the line filters in place where they should be or to have them filtering where they shouldn't be, so while it may be a Qwest problem, the first thing I'd do is double triple quadruple check that there's nothing else plugged into any phone jack anywhere else in the house, and then test.

<S>
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Rebel on June 14, 2010, 02:23:55 PM

 :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch:

Can we get that in English please?  LOL  Anyway i agree with some kind of limit to the amount or percentage of packet loss and you get kicked or not allowed to log in.  Many other online games do the same thing though its usually ping related.  I know that would piss off a certain amount of players and im not saying its what should be done here.  The packet loss reason for warping makes sense but is irritating at the same time.  Seems certain players tend to warp when it works for them, for example when guns are fired on their six.  One particular player seems to do this on a regular basis.

What he's saying is signal speed varies based on what it goes through.  It goes faster through open space (with the optimum being space itself- completely void of any kind of resistance), then it does down a copper line via conduit.

Add to that the number of different places and doors it has to go through (different routers/server farms along the way), and it only gets worse.  Kind of like why airplanes are more effiecent then cars.  To get from New York to LA is actually WAY more efficent on a plane then it is in a car because the car will actually wind up traveling nearly twice the distance and through heavier resistance.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: hlbly on June 14, 2010, 03:30:41 PM
I don't know if this will help . When I had a what I thought was a problem with my dsl router/modem . After having exhausted everything tech support could think of . They sent a tech out to my house , before we tried a new modem/router . He did something called called conditioning my line . For some reason it fixed the horrible connection I was  experiencing .
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: shotgunneeley on June 15, 2010, 07:48:50 AM
I have satellite. No one has trouble shootin me down

In fact, when collisions occur I'm the one that usually takes the damage even if i get rammed from behind. I guess that means it was the "other" guy's connection that was laggy.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: thndregg on June 15, 2010, 08:43:56 AM

Since you have no problem's pinging the 10.0.0.2 address, you've nearly eliminated the possibility of something inside your ethernet network - or in the software in your computer - interfering with your traffic.

But one of the best ways for the  "rest of the infrastructure up to the next router" to be bad is to have things plugged in without the line filters in place where they should be or to have them filtering where they shouldn't be, so while it may be a Qwest problem, the first thing I'd do is double triple quadruple check that there's nothing else plugged into any phone jack anywhere else in the house, and then test.

<S>

What I have is about what you describe. Nothing else is plugged in. No phones, no other PC's, no filters. DSL goes straight to my modem (with integrated router). It has worked for months before this. I started another thread to get my whiney butt out of this one. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,290918.0.html
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: WMLute on June 15, 2010, 10:10:21 AM
In fact, when collisions occur I'm the one that usually takes the damage even if i get rammed from behind. I guess that means it was the "other" guy's connection that was laggy.

(With much thanks to Tec)

(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3316/collision1.png)
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: ACE on June 15, 2010, 10:13:17 AM
I used to have Hughes Net, it was smooth gameplay on my screen but if a plane got behind me and I asked them how far I was from them on "their" screen it would say about a 400ft distance than what was on my screen.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: shotgunneeley on June 15, 2010, 01:12:26 PM
(With much thanks to Tec)

(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3316/collision1.png)

that cookie smells like arse  :D

Yes, I understand how the AH collision system works and that the plane which passes safely by is not the one that blows up. What I was talking about is what "causes" one system's plane appears to pass by safely while the other system's plane collides (the answer being latency/lag). From my perspective, I tend to (not always) to be the receiver of damage when a collision occurs. In this case, am I experiencing more or less connection lag than the other guy?

I know all to well how lag affects online gaming. That's why I subscribed to AH, I was friggin tired of the horrible lag i got in the Battlefield games.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: WMLute on June 15, 2010, 04:05:45 PM


Yes, I understand how the AH collision system works and that the plane which passes safely by is not the one that blows up. What I was talking about is what "causes" one system's plane appears to pass by safely while the other system's plane collides (the answer being latency/lag). From my perspective, I tend to (not always) to be the receiver of damage when a collision occurs. In this case, am I experiencing more or less connection lag than the other guy?

I know all to well how lag affects online gaming. That's why I subscribed to AH, I was friggin tired of the horrible lag i got in the Battlefield games.

Apparently you don't get how it works with AcesHigh.

Collisions are decided on YOUR computer.

When a collisions occurs on YOUR computer you should ALWAYS get damage.

The only way lag comes into play is that when you touched planes with your opponent on YOUR computer they might not have touched planes on THEIR computer.  Because of lag the fight looks slightly different to both opponents.

Lag plays no part what so ever in deciding if you have collided or not.  That is all done locally on your computer.

Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Lusche on June 15, 2010, 04:21:00 PM
From my perspective, I tend to (not always) to be the receiver of damage when a collision occurs. In this case, am I experiencing more or less connection lag than the other guy?


This would make more sense if the server would decide about collisions & damage.
But it doesn't.

As the signals have to travel from your enemy's computer to you (and back), it's about total lag - the sum of your both lags.
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: falcon23 on June 15, 2010, 05:06:02 PM
I think the bottom line is that some people have sat as their ONLY choice,and should not be harangued for it..When I had sat,about all I did was bomb due to my ping sometimes..

 And guys on sat have a few disadvantages over others which I dont think have been spoke of..The biggest one I can think of is that due to lag,lets say one is trying to take down a town building,or pork a field,on their end they have to use more bullets before they get an effect from them,just because of the lag........Put another way..

 If I hit a building now with my current great ping of about 40,it takes not much of a burst.When I would hit them in the past with a sat connection of say 400-700.It seemed to take more,well,it wasnt that it took more,it was the DELAY in seeing the destruction,hence I used to use almost twice as many bullets then as I do now..



  Its a killer for those on sat,I would think they really dont like it,But MANY just do not have a choice...

  And to those guys I would also say,,Learn to be a great bomber for awhile..lol...that way there is no waste of bombs in the lag time to see the destruction..My 0.02
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: Ack-Ack on June 15, 2010, 05:26:49 PM
I have satellite. No one has trouble shootin me down

In fact, when collisions occur I'm the one that usually takes the damage even if i get rammed from behind. I guess that means it was the "other" guy's connection that was laggy.

No, it just means your front end detected the collision and his front end didn't and honestly, if lag did play a part it was on your end.

ack-ack
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: shotgunneeley on June 15, 2010, 09:14:59 PM
Yeah, I tend to get more of a response if my bullets impact the front half of the enemy aircraft rather than the back. I really hate flying when all of the sudden -BAM- I'm in the tower followed by 5 seconds of sustained machine gun fire. You never know your taking hits at until its too late.

As far as sat connection goes, its the only option I've got. I live about 300 yards from the city limits and our local cable provider stops there. They say it would cost thousands of dollars and not be worth it to run the line out to my neighborhood. 
Title: Re: Satalite Internet users....
Post by: 68ZooM on June 15, 2010, 09:38:39 PM
(With much thanks to Tec)

(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3316/collision1.png)

OMG i never laughed so hard in my Life  :rofl :rofl