Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: FiLtH on July 03, 2010, 12:24:48 AM
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Why do you guys insist on messing with these ranges? 1k and none below 500ft? Very unenjoyable for me tonight.
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Why do you guys insist on messing with these ranges? 1k and none below 500ft? Very unenjoyable for me tonight.
yep +1 i couldn't even see them till 800, spent all evening trying to figure out who was who!
Up till they figured out who i was!
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I don't know. Yes more realistic but I found myself dancing around the sky more trying to figure out who was who. At one point I saw about 12 dots and no one on "range channel" so i departed quickly :D
It is a game and I kinda like seeing the bad guys 6K out myself, as it is a game.
From a "fight" stand point it doesn't change the engagement, just how much kabuki dancing :banana: you do before hand.
I think its OK to try it for this FSO but I would like the ICON's back to their normal settings for the next FSO. Its a game and like my fun factor.
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I felt bad.... I ran into a couple good spit drivers and I felt I cheated them. I simply went below 500feet, popped up and killed them when they saw nothing around them.
Having the icons at 3k is better, 6k is too much. Having them at 1k is far, far too little.
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I don't understand the reason for one icon range for friendlies and another for enemies. When you see a dot (or the shape of an airplane if you have a very large monitor) you can't tell if its a distant friendly or a relatively close enemy. One icon range for fighters and another for bombers does make sense to me but not this.
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Icon and dar settings :aok
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Sounds like I missed some real fun. I hope frame 2 has the same settings.
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Spent more time chasing friendlies than we did fighting last night. If we can ID a friendly at 3K, we should be able to ID a bandit at the same range. Its been said before (and I am sure it will again) that without real world resolution and depth perception... setting the icon ranges as they were last night just doesnt work well. Combine that with the fact that most of the bases were not flashing when attacked and you end up spending most of the frame just trying to find something to fight.
I am sure there are those that will disagree, saying it is "more realistic"... but the graphics capabilities of AH just arent the same as RL. A couple of guys in our squad who actually are combat pilots in RL said the same thing.
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I am with you Filth, if this stays the same for all the FSO events it will soon be a ghost town. Was totally unfun last night and I for one will be leaving FSO if it continues.
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I wanted to add one thing... having a lack of icons/very short icons favors the aircraft that are faster. That is one of the reasons some of us flying for the Luftwaffe did so well, it certainly wasn't ability.
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I wanted to add one thing... having a lack of icons/very short icons favors the aircraft that are faster. That is one of the reasons some of us flying for the Luftwaffe did so well, it certainly wasn't ability.
I hear ya... we had a 109 blow through our formation at top speed with guns blazing at one point last night. Didnt see him until he was in top of us, and lost him almost as fast among the friendly dots around us.
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Sounds like I missed some real fun. I hope frame 2 has the same settings.
it might not be a great loss, but last night was my one and only sortie with those settings!
At a minimum, 1.5 but 3k for both sides would be a lot better, at least!
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I wasn't aware the settings had changed until the fight started. Once I was engaged with a Spit9 low and his icon disappeared I thought he had crashed.
When he suddenly appeared out of nowhere again it was a bit of a shock but I didn't assume anything the rest of the night. I liked the icon settings. What happened at times last night was exactly what I've heard described many times in interviews of WWII fighter pilots. The sky was full of fighting aircraft one moment and the next I was alone in an empty sky. Nice change to the normal 50+ minute mark cage match of death the FSO has become of late. I think the change brought back a little of the old feeling of the FSO being different and more challenging than your usual Main Arena fare.
Thanks for the fun night staffers. :aok
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Well if the point was to hinder a good fight that worked perfectly. Any icons 1k or higher had to be treated as suspect. This just isnt working in the FSO. For all the time put into setting this up and people gathering together this killed the entire weeks work preparing for it. Can we drop this next frame? The object is to promote a good fight,not try to make it harder.
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There's a reason the game uses icons.
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Whether they are Long (5K), Regular (3K) or short (1K). The Icon settings need to be the same across the board for every FSO. Nothing can prepare you for short Icons except offline play or events that routinely have icon settings like this.
Last night was tough and challenging. I had some pilots who were not pleased, and we all knew the settings going into tonight as I mentioned it several times before launch.
It is certainly different and more challenging, but I think we need Icons above 1K.
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Some love them, some hate them. Nothing new.
Sounds like I missed some real fun. I hope frame 2 has the same settings.
Icons will be the same for all three frames.
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One reason I really enjoy FSO events is that the realism is high in all aspects, including the reduced icon range. Playing in the MAs is alot of fun, but I have the most fun flying in a realistic scenario with a squad and having a specific mission target or patrol area as well as having to figure out friend from foe just like the real guys did.
AH maybe just a game, but for me, it's also way to experience the history which AH is based on. I wish FSO type events occurred more frequently (more than once a week) quite honestly. If that were the case then I'd likely not play in the MAs as much and just fly in events.
In any case, I had a great time last night and can't wait for the next frame.
:salute
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Some love them, some hate them. Nothing new.
Icons will be the same for all three frames.
I personally don't see the logic in being able to ID a friendly at 3K, but an enemy only at 1K.
Another factor is depth perception, which we do not have in AH. Icons are what "simulate" that. Too much "realism" becomes a hindrance if the computer cannot "simulate" it realistically.
It has been stated many times that one of the goals of FSO is to ensure that pilots dont end up flying for an hour with nothing to do... hence the reason for each side knowing what the other sides targets are going to be. This variation of the icon settings seems to be in conflict with that idea.
My guess is that now that everyone is aware of the icon settings (I know it was posted, but I am sure many didnt read it) , and just what their impact is in the arena... you will see more NOE strikes and combat on the deck for frames 2 & 3. No reason to fly above 500' if you can be virtually invisible below it. It will become a contest of who can get lucky and sneak in without getting caught rather than fighting their way through in a more "realistic" type of formation.
Dont get me wrong... I enjoyed flying last night. But more so because it was a Friday night with the squad. Saw very little action. Once you became separated from an enemy and you lost each other icons, it was very difficult for both sides to re engage. I am sure there were some large furballs out there... but I think that was just due to both sides lucking into being at the right places at the right times.
Now... with all of this said. I think having different icon ranges from time to time is NOT a bad thing. But those ranges need to be the same for both friendly AND foe in any given frame. And the below 500' no icon idea needs to just go out the window. If anything, make it 100' or lower. It is way too easy to fly under 500' in any terrain and avoid detection completely.
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Some love them, some hate them. Nothing new.
Icons will be the same for all three frames.
:salute good luck with the icons I won't be flying those I have better things to do with my Friday nites.
Flying in the face of the majority is always a bad idea and I don't care who you are or think you are.
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Some love them, some hate them. Nothing new.
Icons will be the same for all three frames.
Sorry to hear that!
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There's a reason the game uses icons.
The biggest need for icons is in the main arenas where there are three sides and everybody flies the same type aircraft. In an environment like the FSO or any Axis vs Allied environment friendly icons should be there to provide you with an ID of a friend or squadmate which can't be done without personal skins. As far as enemy aircraft recognition it's not that hard every aircraft in AHII has a distinct look and color at a distance because the default skins override any other skins until your distance decreases to a point where the custom skin is recognizable. As far as saying no icons kill fights it's just not true. I didn't have one fight I was in last night killed because of no icons. They were killed because one side or the other won the fight. The fights in the AVA have been much better since the staff adopted the no enemy icons. You are required to get closer and maneuver more to ensure your kills which usually results in a longer more protracted engagement. There's very little sneaking up and killing without being seen in the AVA, but I think that has to do with a more liberal radar system used to help enhance the no enemy icon environment. As far as the advantage automatically going to the faster aircraft in a no enemy icon environment that's just not the case.
If you look at at the stats for AVA tour 99 the past week was a USAAF vs IJAAF setup. The P-51B and D P-47D25 and P-38L were pretty soundly beaten by the Ki-84 Ki-61 and A6M5. The limited icon use in the FSO where there is limited radar admittedly is harder to deal with than the settings of the AVA where you know there are enemies in your immediate area. I'm not sure the limited icons and limited radar both will work in the FSO. One or the other is enough both together may be too much. However since Daddog has stated the next two frames will be with these settings a good place to get some practice getting used to it for the next two weeks is the AVA. Spend a couple of hours in there and you'll see it not as difficult as it first seems. Oh by the way I'm 51 with middle aged reflexes plus I'm near sighted and have to wear reading glasses to fly. I'm not one of the AHII hotshots who regularly lands 5+ kills or writes posts on the BBS about my superior ACM or has groupies posting movies about me on the BBS. I'm just an average middle of the road cartoon plane crasher. If I can adapt to it anybody can. I understand a lot of you don't like it but we're stuck with it for the next two weeks. Try the AVA if you get a chance and see if that improves your SA some for the upcoming two weeks.
<S>
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I felt bad.... I ran into a couple good spit drivers and I felt I cheated them. I simply went below 500feet, popped up and killed them when they saw nothing around them.
Having the icons at 3k is better, 6k is too much. Having them at 1k is far, far too little.
I agree with Del, 3k minimum. I was chasing a spit last night who went below 500' and even with the field ack firing on the con I could not see him. Luckily Noah17 got the bastage but he was all mine and even I need a cookie now and then.
Cheers,
gus
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I felt bad.... I ran into a couple good spit drivers and I felt I cheated them. I simply went below 500feet, popped up and killed them when they saw nothing around them.
Having the icons at 3k is better, 6k is too much. Having them at 1k is far, far too little.
I, too, agree with Delirium, both in this and his other post about very short icons favoring the faster plane (i.e., our Bf-109G-2 vs. Hurricane Mk.II).
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The biggest need for icons is in the game is because the human eye is incapable of picking out objects on a screen to the same degree it can in the real world.
Next two weeks of FSO will be the lowest attended FSO's or, the most whined about FSO's.
People want to fight, not fly around looking for a fight.No Icons has been tried, and very quicly becomes boring.
HiTech
Yeah, did AvA. Stopped for the same reason FSO sucked last night.
Lets be straight, realism is great but if the pursuit of realism sucks the fun out of the event, it's a non-event.
Now I and many other married men have to go through a lot of crap to reserve our Friday nights for this and at no point last night - and for the first time in many years - was the reward for my efforts it worth it.
Of course, I will continue to show. Our squad made a commitment and I will not be a part of neglecting that commitment. I will be here next Friday and be ready for the kack that is to come but I BEG the FSO big-wigs to consider this;
We show up for 3 Fridays a month to have FUN. If you continue to remove fun in the name of realism participation will fall.
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few love them, most hate them. Nothing new.
Icons will be the same for all three frames.
Fixed for accuracy.
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People were calling out dots last night that my crappy computer couldn't even see. On the other hand spikes with his super uber gaming rig was not only able to see the dots, but call out spit or 109/190. Something not right with that.
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The largest obstacle in a no icon environment is that you are checking your six constantly, scanning the horizon all around you constantly. Which lends to have a good wingman really helps the situation out.
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Ze sky is falling! Ze sky is falling! (http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4747/overreact.gif) (http://img205.imageshack.us/i/overreact.gif/)
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The biggest need for icons is in the game is because the human eye is incapable of picking out objects on a screen to the same degree it can in the real world.
Next two weeks of FSO will be the lowest attended FSO's or, the most whined about FSO's.
hard to say for sure but very possible
realism is great but if the pursuit of realism sucks the fun out of the event, it's a non-event.
yep
Now I and many other married men have to go through a lot of crap to reserve our Friday nights for this .
Yep,, hard to justify neglecting my wife for something i don't think is fun anymore!
I will continue to show. Our squad made a commitment and I will not be a part of neglecting that commitment.
If they need me to be there I will help out, otherwise my decision to skip the rest of this frame stands if the Icon range stays the same,
Quote from: hitech on November 29, 2005, 02:01:11 PM
People want to fight, not fly around looking for a fight.No Icons has been tried, and very quicly becomes boring.
HiTech
Good enough for me to justify my position!
I like to fly FSO, it has been a blast even when we get our rears handed to us, but the fun factor left last night when all i could do is fly around trying to figure out who's who,, to much time trying to figure out who was on my six instead of pushing ahead with our mission, we ended up not making our second trip because we were to busy chasing ghost's !
no offense Daddog but I hope you reconsider your position!
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Yeah, did AvA. Stopped for the same reason FSO sucked last night.
Yeah, not quite.
The AvA wasn't doing any better before they made no enemy icons standard.
In fact it has gotten quite a few converts because of the setting.
Perhaps it should be confined to the AvA though. That's where no icon fans can make a home.
Anyway like Shifty said, if it's going to stay this way for two weeks why not stop by AvA for some practice?
Tuesday we usually have plenty of folks for a fight. Other nights might be good too, but I usually fly on Tuesdays.
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A no Icon arena would be good for those who like the idea to try out! it would also be nice to see there opinion about it after the fact!
it would also probably be more fun if it were easier to see the planes at a distance but on a computer monitor it is really hard to tell much of anything at a distance
the other problem i saw was not being able to tell if a con was going down or had just dipped below the 500 foot mark, Like I said,, chasing ghost's!
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A no Icon arena would be good for those who like the idea to try out! it would also be nice to see there opinion about it after the fact!
AvA is the place. No enemy icons, friendly icons at 2.4K, been this way for a few months now, most people enjoy the change.
Still, I wouldn't recommend it become a standard setting anywhere else.
We enjoy being the gathering place for no icon fans.
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Some love them, some hate them. Nothing new.
Icons will be the same for all three frames.
Then enjoy those frames. I won't be there unless I can't find some grass growing or cement hardening somewhere. This is stupidity taken to the ultimate. We all want realism, but with a balance of playability and enjoyable entertainment. This ain't it by such a long shot.
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I, too, agree with Delirium, both in this and his other post about very short icons favoring the faster plane (i.e., our Bf-109G-2 vs. Hurricane Mk.II).
You and Delirium are both wrong on that account. There is no advantage either way. The faster the plane the easier it is to misjudge and overshoot unless you really know your sight picture, and that takes some time.
People were calling out dots last night that my crappy computer couldn't even see. On the other hand spikes with his super uber gaming rig was not only able to see the dots, but call out spit or 109/190. Something not right with that.
What's not right about it? When the graphics were updated in AH people whined for weeks about not being able to play but few actually took a hike. It was easier to whine than anything else. The crappy computer argument doesn't wash because Chilli (who is no young squeaker) flies in the no enemy icons AvA regularly on a crappy laptop and he does very well against those of us with better systems. According to him, dummying down the graphics a bit made it easier for him. And he's not the only one using a laptop in there either.
A no Icon arena would be good for those who like the idea to try out! it would also be nice to see there opinion about it after the fact!
it would also probably be more fun if it were easier to see the planes at a distance but on a computer monitor it is really hard to tell much of anything at a distance
the other problem i saw was not being able to tell if a con was going down or had just dipped below the 500 foot mark, Like I said,, chasing ghost's!
Drop by the AvA arena and see for yourself. It is becomes quite easy to spot a plane from 6k out. At 4k you can tell friend from foe due to a difference in object shading. You learn real quick how important situational awareness and communications are and you start flying smarter. Learning wingman tactics doesn't hurt either.
I know it's not easy for anyone used to MA icon settings to be tossed into a limited icon visibility setting without having some way of gettting used to it first, and few will do that willingly for various reasons. Daddog, perhaps it would probably be a little easier to swallow the icon settings if the radar settings were changed to compensate. If 500 ft is no icons at all, maybe bar dar would be an acceptable setting, and maybe making dot dar a bit more relaxed as well so people can at least have a chance to find the action.
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You and Delirium are both wrong on that account. There is no advantage either way. The faster the plane the easier it is to misjudge and overshoot unless you really know your sight picture, and that takes some time.more relaxed as well so people can at least have a chance to find the action.
You're totally and completely incorrect in this regard. Trust me, I scored most of my kills last night with this method.
To be blunt, the only reason you are disagreeing with me is because you like the short icons.
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My post was not intended to start an arguement. I have no say so in the icon settings and was surprised myself last night by the settings. Plus the difference in the radar betwwen FSO and AVA makes a huge difference. was just offering the idea that since we do have these settings for the next two weeks some guys might want to try the AVA with it's similar settings just to get a little more used to the SA environment nothing more. I can see where the lack of icons makes playing a real PITA for guys with older rigs or those who play on laptops.
<S>
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DD:
Understand your position and I do remember more than a few threads regarding this over the years and one just recently. And there is a fair share of the guys that are on both sides on this topic. So its worth a try in my opinion to try different setting with the ICON's.
In the end this is a game and its got to be enjoyable by the mass's. The mass's being at least 80% of the guys. I think the comments state clearly that it was to much work for a game and the enjoyment suffered a bit. Also the computer argument and graphics makes a good point as well. I know I am running on a 6 year old computer now.
Sloehand said it best 2 threads above. Very good comment.
AKP has a good point also that the ICON range should be the same for both sides. Very good comment.
Del brings up a good point not to take away from the fact he is a skilled pilot, he basically stated he "gamed the game" and he described exactly how he did it. To me when this happens then there is a issue. No offense Del your good and you got 10 kills last night <S> ICONS or not.
DD would like you to concider making a change to the ICON settings for Frame 02 to 3K each and see how that runs.
My personal opinion is that the ICON range was just fine before at 6K and the same at any altitude. And if I had a vote I would like them put back to where they were at. For what it is worth.
Its a game and last night wasn't as much fun. I'm not going to quit or anything. But it just wasn't as much fun.
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Lots of good comments. Lots of rude and self indulgent comments made by players who are totally ignorant as to what I am looking at in this FSO. More to the point, they probably don't care because it is not fun for them. So be it. I am looking out for the fun of the whole, not just those that quit.
About six months ago we received some new tools from HTC. New icons ranges and tower only radar. Since that time they have hardly been used. My decision to go with the shorter icon range for enemy and the no icon range below 500 feet has nothing to do with if I like it or if it would be more 'fun' for the players. I am looking at the 'survivability' of the players to see if having a shorter enemy icon range made a difference. That is if a shorter enemy icon range = a higher % of players that land. Over the past month when I first decided to do this I have looked at many FSO's and FSO frames. The percents this year in a frame range from only 21% landing to as high as 64% landing. Last Friday we had about 43% land. By in large 40% to 45% landing is pretty much the average for an FSO frame. I was wondering if the shorter icon range would increase the percent that land, but it looks like it will not make a difference. This is stupidity taken to the ultimate.
Oh no, I have done things much more stupid than this. :)
Having said that I fully understand that just 'surviving' an FSO frame does not make it fun. There are a lot of other factors involved. I get that, and look a those too.
For those of you that don't enjoy it, but stick it out I apologize and I appreciate your efforts to help us improve FSO.
For those that quit. Adios! :salute
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Not currently in game........
But glad to see that FSO is now popular enough to withstand growing pains of such as this without the loss of major squads. They should explore any aspect as long as it is across the board.
This will weather out as all things have and a happy medium will prevail.
And for the record: Icons could include skill level at 6K and I would still be hard pressed to get a kill in my beloved FSO.
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You're totally and completely incorrect in this regard. Trust me, I scored most of my kills last night with this method.
To be blunt, the only reason you are disagreeing with me is because you like the short icons.
To be extremely blunt Delirium once again you're talking through your hindside again. Read what I replied to again since it went over your head the first time. Your kills had nothing to do with the speed of the planes and that is the part you were and are totally wrong about. Those kills had everything to do with you using a tactic the people were not prepared to defend against and a lack of SA on their parts. Maybe if you had more experience in a no icons environment you wouldn't have said such a silly thing in the first place.
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To be extremely blunt Delirium once again you're talking through your hindside again. Read what I replied to again since it went over your head the first time. Your kills had nothing to do with the speed of the planes and that is the part you were and are totally wrong about. Those kills had everything to do with you using a tactic the people were not prepared to defend against and a lack of SA on their parts. Maybe if you had more experience in a no icons environment you wouldn't have said such a silly thing in the first place.
Lol.
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So, I have read all about how most players hate the icon ranges used in this frame. For me, it made it more interesting. It forces us to actually read the CiC's orders, understand where other friendly units are supposed to be, and actually communicate with each other.
If you see some dots, are they where a friendly unit is likely to be? Are there more names on range radio than there were a minute ago? You should see a friendly icon before that dot gets big enough to make out the plane itself. If none of these things happen, chances are it may be a bandit.
If I wanted to fly with full 6k icons and not have to think or use squad tactics or communication, I'd stay in the MA. If anyone thinks it's too much work to fly the FSO, they are welcome to stay in the MA.
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To be extremely blunt Delirium once again you're talking through your hindside again. Read what I replied to again since it went over your head the first time. Your kills had nothing to do with the speed of the planes and that is the part you were and are totally wrong about. Those kills had everything to do with you using a tactic the people were not prepared to defend against and a lack of SA on their parts. Maybe if you had more experience in a no icons environment you wouldn't have said such a silly thing in the first place.
said the guy who wasn't there to one of the two who got ten kills with the new settings!
oh wait i forgot,,, you know everything about everything!!! my bad! carry on! :x
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the icon ranges work for some people and not for others. im with imadot on this. it forces you to work a bit harders. that much more of a challenge. AVA started no enemy icons on a request. it was put into use during a midway setup but you knew if it was a zeke(which stood out like a sore thumb) it was a bad guy. with all the different skins available, its a bit more tricky in the FSO, but can be managed. good communications and SA and the assumption that a closing dot is a bad guy.
skins do make a difference if you're shot up. you can hide below 500 and probably wont get noticed. with 6k icons, you're as good as dead meat with the guy that has that need to get score no matter what.
as a AVA regular, no enemy icons is managable. finding a good friendly setting is a bit more tricky.
my only suggestion to daddog is to go to 2.4k for friendly.
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Lots of good comments. Lots of rude and self indulgent comments made by players who are totally ignorant as to what I am looking at in this FSO. More to the point, they probably don't care because it is not fun for them. So be it. I am looking out for the fun of the whole, not just those that quit.
About six months ago we received some new tools from HTC. New icons ranges and tower only radar. Since that time they have hardly been used. My decision to go with the shorter icon range for enemy and the no icon range below 500 feet has nothing to do with if I like it or if it would be more 'fun' for the players. I am looking at the 'survivability' of the players to see if having a shorter enemy icon range made a difference. That is if a shorter enemy icon range = a higher % of players that land. Over the past month when I first decided to do this I have looked at many FSO's and FSO frames. The percents this year in a frame range from only 21% landing to as high as 64% landing. Last Friday we had about 43% l :
I take it then that you OWN this event DD, nice to know that we are just pawns for you to experiment with. BTW who the hell is this "majority" that you are working for??? they sure as hell are not posting here. I play this game for fun, if the fun goes out then I play something else, quite simple really and what you want has nothing to do with what I call fun so save the platitudes.
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If I wanted to fly with full 6k icons and not have to think or use squad tactics or communication, I'd stay in the MA. If anyone thinks it's too much work to fly the FSO, they are welcome to stay in the MA.
I hope you and the "few" who support this icon range have fun and I hope the rest take you up on your offer to leave FSO, as I predicted a few months ago all this "no icon" crap would start to creep into area's it was not wanted, pushed by the vocal few and now it's started on some flimsy context about "I wanted to see" crap. Well FSO can go down alot faster than it went up and by refusing to listen to the "majority" you risk getting just what you asked for.
There is more to being a leader than just being "in charge"
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Am wondering, did the Allies have a harder time with the icons than the Axis? I think most of the action I was involved in happenned east of the channel where the Germans had radar coverage. My flight had an expert running commentary of the radar picture - I knew where much of the friendlies and enemy were, where they where going, in what number. Then I could tell from the colour and shape of the aircraft which ones were the spits before hitting icon range.
It would have been a huge loss to have lost radar coverage....
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all this "no icon" crap would start to creep into area's it was not wanted
There's a big difference between "no icon" and "short icon". I believe that 1k enemy icon is a bit too short; I'd like to see it at 2 or 2.5k. The FSO is supposed to be something more than just another MA mission, and I think it's cool that some people volunteer many hours of their free time to put this together for us.
It's too bad some people are just stuck in instant-gratification "quake" mode where they want everything set as easy as possible so all they need to do is point and shoot without doing any work.
It's too bad that sometimes the designer's plans don't work out quite as they envisioned, but that's life. I will close with 1k enemy icons didn't add to either the realism or the enjoyment of many and respectfully ask that it be changed to something like 2.5k for the other frames.
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There's a big difference between "no icon" and "short icon". I believe that 1k enemy icon is a bit too short; I'd like to see it at 2 or 2.5k. The FSO is supposed to be something more than just another MA mission, and I think it's cool that some people volunteer many hours of their free time to put this together for us.
It's too bad some people are just stuck in instant-gratification "quake" mode where they want everything set as easy as possible so all they need to do is point and shoot without doing any work.
It's too bad that sometimes the designer's plans don't work out quite as they envisioned, but that's life. I will close with 1k enemy icons didn't add to either the realism or the enjoyment of many and respectfully ask that it be changed to something like 2.5k for the other frames.
Come on that's just BS on the face of it, FSO was fine with 3k icons (a far cry from MA) and no one complained, it was when the no icon group started wanting to "expand" beyond AvA that things started being "played" with. I have zero problems that it was tried this last frame and it was not a success, I DO have a problem with it being stated that the failed experiment will continue to be pushed down our throats.
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Come on that's just BS on the face of it, FSO was fine with 3k icons (a far cry from MA) and no one complained, it was when the no icon group started wanting to "expand" beyond AvA that things started being "played" with. I have zero problems that it was tried this last frame and it was not a success, I DO have a problem with it being stated that the failed experiment will continue to be pushed down our throats.
Get off it Boxboy, nobody has said a thing about changing the icon settings for months. It's not happening behind your back in a dark room off an alley in the ghetto. You don't like it, that's clear. Rather than brow beating everyone including people who are actually in agreement with you is just ensuring everyone understands you have no capacity to think of anything outside your own world. Now take your ball and go home.
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You and Delirium are both wrong on that account. There is no advantage either way. The faster the plane the easier it is to misjudge and overshoot unless you really know your sight picture, and that takes some time...
No, sir. You do not have sole posession of "The Truth." We simply disagree, I suppose because you and I have experiences that differ. :salute
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See Rule #4
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Gents, I've gotten to know Daddog a little since I flew with his group in the previous FSO event, "Normandy". While I may not big a big fan of the icon settings, I know for a fact that Daddog isn't trying to force his idea of what the events should be.
He is just a volunteer, cut him a little slack and don't criticize him, but feel free to criticize the settings as much as you want.
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I only wish I didn't work Friday nights so I could fly FSO no matter what the icon settings are.
As far as I'm concerned, all you guys are lucky :neener:
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It's quite clear you like it, so your opinion falls abit short on my "pay attention" scale. Who are you to decide people's capacity?? I see you bleating your tripe constantly in that vein as tho you are the only person in the world that gets it. Putting words in peoples' mouths smacks of High School demagoguery to me, now take your ball and stuff it.
Boxboy, you really should try getting out of the house more, being a cartoon ace has quite obviously made it impossible for you to have any intelligent thought or the ability to accept challenges outside of sitting upright in a chair.
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Boxboy, you really should try getting out of the house more, being a cartoon ace has quite obviously made it impossible for you to have any intelligent thought or the ability to accept challenges outside of sitting upright in a chair.
????? is that the best you got :rofl :rofl :rofl what maroon :neener:
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Whine all you want about the icons.
We had to fly freakin Ju 88s. Tough to beat that whinage.
perdweeb
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Whoa, whoa everyone... let's all take a step back here. This was the original post:
Why do you guys insist on messing with these ranges? 1k and none below 500ft? Very unenjoyable for me tonight.
The question at hand isn't one of "no icons" or "ramming things down people throats". The question is "are the settings in the current FSO the right ones." Taking shots at the FSO Staff, and other FSO players in this forum isnt going to help anything. Lets look at this one point at a time:
1) Daddog has stated that the settings will remain as they are for the next 2 frames. That's fair... it is the way this month's FSO has been set up. No one on the FSO staff has said anything about it being that way forever. But, to change it now, just because some of us dont like the settings after one frame sets the stage for anything to be changed mid-run in a FSO just because some of us dont like it. It was clearly stated in the FSO setup, and we all just need to live with it for the next 2 frames.
2) I think the question at hand is more one of "why have different range settings for friendlies and enemies." A couple have voiced an opinion on that, but nothing has come from the FSO staff on that. I have no problem with varying the icon settings from time to time. If global icon range is set to 1K, it forces players to fly in tighter formations to maintain ID on their squadmates. Anything outside that ID range can then become suspect. But... with varied settings, it adds in an element of uncertainty. My personal opinion wold be if the settings are going to be "played with" from time to time, that it be done so globally. I also feel that 1K is a bit too short... as 1K is just on the edge of lethal guns range. If the thought is that we should be able to tell by the profile of an aircraft what it is at 3K, then I think we should have an icon to go with it.
3) When combined with a 1K enemy ID range, no icons below 500' becomes even more difficult to manage in my opinion. Add to that the fact that many of the bases did not even flash when bandits were directly on top of them (something which has yet to be explained) , and it promotes NOE sneakery on a grand scale.
FSO is successful for many reasons. It has a great group of volunteers that put together outstanding scenarios week after week. The CiC's take the time to send out detailed orders to their squads, and the squads themselves immerse themselves into the scenario and become a part of it. Squads that cant stand each other in the MA's fly side by side in FSO and work together as if they had been doing so for years. It is really amazing all of the work and commitment that goes into it by everyone.
Another reason that FSO is so successful is that it has settings that are more challenging than just flying in the MA's... and there are rules that must be followed to participate. But if those settings or rules are taken too far, in either direction, we are taking the risk of driving many good FSO participants away.
I enjoy almost every FSO I fly in. In fact, the only ones I havent enjoyed, are when I do something stupid that puts me back in the tower early... like pranging my prop when I am setting down for a refuel before I even get the chance to see combat. Frame 1 of this FSO wasnt "as enjoyable" as many others for the reasons I have already stated... but I will live with it for the next 2 frames and adjust my tactics accordingly. But it is my hope that going forward, changing icon range settings is something that is "few and far between"... and is done with great consideration for all the participants involved.
See you in frame 2. :salute
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All one has to do is look at AVA and see that the no icon fan club is tiny to non existent. To think those settings will work in a time set environment when it has obviously failed in a "fly whenever you want" environment is just going against the majority. I know I spend more time in the FSO than the MA and it is pretty much the only reason I fly anymore. Even Hajo decided he was going to hang it up and drop his account. I would hate to see the FSO go the way of AVA because toying with the settings was more important than putting on an event that the majority enjoyed.
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All one has to do is look at AVA and see that the no icon fan club is tiny to non existent. To think those settings will work in a time set environment when it has obviously failed in a "fly whenever you want" environment
The real truth is the AvA population was tiny to non existent before the icon change ever took place, for a variety of reasons. Chief among them is that you simply can't fly any plane from any country at any time.
The AvA will never have 100's of players, but it currently is doing OK.
It's just not true to say no icons has failed in AvA, no more than anything else has failed in AvA.
In fact, it has brought back several people who haven't flown in there for years.
If you read the AvA forum, it's pretty active. The arena, at least when I play, has a large enough population that it's easy to find a fight.
The no icons setting is working pretty well in AvA, but I never really want to see it expand into other arenas.
I for one, rather like the AvA having the monopoly on that.
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All one has to do is look at AVA and see that the no icon fan club is tiny to non existent. To think those settings will work in a time set environment when it has obviously failed in a "fly whenever you want" environment is just going against the majority. I know I spend more time in the FSO than the MA and it is pretty much the only reason I fly anymore. Even Hajo decided he was going to hang it up and drop his account. I would hate to see the FSO go the way of AVA because toying with the settings was more important than putting on an event that the majority enjoyed.
Another rocket scientist without a clue. Just so you're informed next time, the AvA went no enemy icons in March of this year, and it is picking up a bigger fan club than it had prior to that.
Before March 2010, the AvA was pretty much the same as FSO. Same maps, same settings, no time limits.
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Another rocket scientist without a clue. Just so you're informed next time, the AvA went no enemy icons in March of this year, and it is picking up a bigger fan club than it had prior to that.
Before March 2010, the AvA was pretty much the same as FSO. Same maps, same settings, no time limits.
Aw gee shucks. I guess zero numbers is still zero numbers regardless of the settings. But this isnt the setting for a AVA recruiting thread. Its about the settings that it seems has reduced the enjoyment for most of those posting in here.
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DrDea is right, this thread isn't supposed to be about AvA, but it might be helpful to try out the arena to get acclimated to limited icon settings so that the FSO experience over the next two weeks is more enjoyable.
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daddog, you will always get your share of whiners and cryers whenever you try something new. its easy for them to condemn while they hide behind an anonymous computer screen. i too have been the victim of the retribution whenever someone is not happy or doesnt like change. As we see in the AVA forum, you need a thick skin and a set of these:
(http://www.stephenhuesdesigns.com/Clothing2/PJpants2.jpg)
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If anyone wants to get some target practice in a no enemy icons environment I'll be in the AvA later this afternoon and tomorrow. The dar settings make it fairly easy to find someone to fight, just have to figure out what alt they are at.
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One of the more difficult things is discerning range. It helps to pay attention off or online in other arenas, as to what ranges the aircraft relates to how large it looks in the sight picture.
Some more tips can be found here. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,290632.0.html
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Not currently in game........
But glad to see that FSO is now popular enough to withstand growing pains of such as this without the loss of major squads. They should explore any aspect as long as it is across the board.
This will weather out as all things have and a happy medium will prevail.
And for the record: Icons could include skill level at 6K and I would still be hard pressed to get a kill in my beloved FSO.
The Arabian Knights have participated in every FSO since it's inception. While in the past we have drastically reduced our commitment at times; this is the first time the squad had unanimously voted to skip an event. The primary reason was the setup, as espoused by many of the posts here.
While we chose not to participate, we still hope that this July's event will be a success. FSO still remains one of the best attractions of Aces High.
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I kind of liked the 3k FSO enemy icons, 1k is too short, if that makes me a whiner so be it.
shamus
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Missed this is FSO because I'm laid up in hospital. CM's you expect commitment from squads in consistency - maybe the same goes the other way in game settings. Icons is something a lot of people seem to not want to be changed - so why do it?
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Ive been biteing my tounge on this one but it needs to be said. When your biggest support is from a squad that got kicked out of FSO,you seriously need to take a look at what your promoting. Cause your so far from right you should be ashamed.
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Did I miss something ?
I just searched all my data on WWII and have found no reference to any pilot finding a red icon above any enemy they came across. FSO tries to be historically accurate, and therefore I agree with the icon range.I <S> Daddog and the FSO crew for doing a great job in the FSOs. After all , Its a game , And I am an adult playing that game . Those who say "Im not playing anymore unless the icon is changed." should probably go back to playing other games and leave the FSO for pp;l who would like to have FUN!
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Did I miss something ?
obviously you did - the game engine in no way provides the total visual fidelity to compare with the real world, and thus icons make up for this shortfall.
FSO has been built up over the years to an awesome event, if it ain't broke why fix it?
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Happy 4th of July everyone..
(http://thm-a03.yimg.com/nimage/5972273d02c3e2b2)
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obviously you did - the game engine in no way provides the total visual fidelity to compare with the real world, and thus icons make up for this shortfall.
FSO has been built up over the years to an awesome event, if it ain't broke why fix it?
I understand this, But why complain is all Im saying . after all it is only a game Right ?
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Yes its a game and those that fly FSO have a voice.Apparently that voice tends to say short Icons take away from the fun.
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Happy 4th of July everyone..
(http://thm-a03.yimg.com/nimage/5972273d02c3e2b2)
Thanks TUK, same to you.
(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6459/fireworks5nj9.jpg)
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I understand this, But why complain is all Im saying . after all it is only a game Right ?
Precisely!
So why pursue realism to the point of ruining the fun. It's a game. Folks play for enjoyment/fun. The majority posting here did not have fun with icon settings. What was you point again? Oh yeah, why "complain".
Folks are complaining so that those that affect these things are aware. If they aren't aware then there is the possibility this thing we don't enjoy might stay. If it stays because we say nothing we have failed the Fun Gods. If it stays despite our voices, the Fun Gods have failed us.
Thanks for all the AvA propaganda also. I think we have a solution.
Keep the icon setting in the AvA, all those that <3 them for their BFF's can go there. Slide FSO away from the settings that attract 6 people a day into the AvA arena and back to the way it was for the 250+ folks who turn up weekly for FSO.
Friday Squad Operations Fun Sucked Out.
Fluctuating Settings Only Facilitate Screams Originating From Sections Of Friday's Squad Operations. Frightened Severely Our Friends Soundly Offer Frank Solutions/Opinions, Faithfully Sure Our Fearless Squad Operations Forerunners Shall Organize Future Squad Operations, Fixing Settings Outright.
See what I did there?
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Friday Squad Operations Fun Sucked Out.
Fluctuating Settings Only Facilitate Screams Originating From Sections Of Friday's Squad Operations. Frightened Severely Our Friends Soundly Offer Frank Solutions/Opinions, Faithfully Sure Our Fearless Squad Operations Forerunners Shall Organize Future Squad Operations, Fixing Settings Outright.
See what I did there?
Talent... just pure talent :huh
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I was quite surprised that I couldn't see anything until 1K and so was my squad. Seems 3k is good enough and has been used for a while now.
This is just another argument about the human eye vs the computer screen...3K is a good middle and should be the standard unless we all get upgraded with 50" flat screens or something...and even then. I only run a 19" and people who run lower I feel bad for.
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For crying out loud people,
Give it a rest. Everyone has stated their opinions and I am sure it will be taken into account when the next FSO is designed. Some of you seem to forget without the volunteers that give their time to set this up week after week and donate many hours of their free time to this, FSO wouldn't happen. They do this only to be attacked every FSO about something or the other. Frankly, I wonder why they don't all just say "F" it and move on. They continue to open their selves up for this abuse week after week in the hopes of putting on a fun event that everyone will enjoy.
This community has already run off Stoney, how many more is it going to take before we lighten up just a bit.
These guys do the best job that they can, and I am quite sure that anything they do that doesn't turn out quite the way they thought it would was not done maliciously, but with the intent of creating a better FSO for all of us. I for one am thankful that these guys put up with this crap week after week to put on the best event that they possibly can.
:salute to the FSO staff and Happy Independence Day TUK!
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These guys do the best job that they can, and I am quite sure that anything they do that doesn't turn out quite the way they thought it would was not done maliciously, but with the intent of creating a better FSO for all of us. I for one am thankful that these guys put up with this crap week after week to put on the best event that they possibly can.
Look it's not that their efforts are not appreciated and even experimenting is not bad, but when it doesn't work and folks express their dislike of the experiment, it's time to go back to the accepted settings, not continue them for the next 2 frame's. I think changing the icons settings are quite easy to do, and doesn't require massive reworking of the senario.
People will complain when things are not fun, that's the feed back these folks should want to make things better, but that doesn't seem to be the case here???? Platitudes like "you folks have no idea what I am trying to do" don't usually lead to shouts of atta boy.
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I prefer to fly with whatever settings are chosen for us, so I do not have a preference. But one idea occurred to me while paging through this thread: Not sure the game engine can do this... given the same settings as Friday, if NME icons could be enabled under 1k and at 500, the range info goes away but aircraft info does not. Or instead of saying Spit, it says NME. That way people with lesser abilities to see aircraft and dots have soem help, but when it gets close, not a crutch for shooting purposes.
Just a thought...
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Having said that I fully understand that just 'surviving' an FSO frame does not make it fun. There are a lot of other factors involved. I get that, and look a those too.
For those of you that don't enjoy it, but stick it out I apologize and I appreciate your efforts to help us improve FSO.
For those that quit. Adios! :salute
Now I understand at least how and why this "icon" change came about. Aside from that, I personally, don't (and wouldn't) care what the stats are on survivability. I would care about playability and enjoyment, which are certainly difficult to gauge I imagine being very subjective. Anecdotally, from what I've heard and exerienced, most people don't mind not surviving as long as the rode to their demise was fair, exciting and not too quick (something the pilot's skill level may determine).
For myself, I have no intention of quiting FSO overall, just that if anything at all comes up in real life on Friday night that is the least bit interesting for the rest of this rotation, I will do that and not FSO. Of course, my life ain't all that interesting, so who knows. And if I do fly, since survivability seems to be a crucial issue for some reason, I may just fly and avoid conflict that I can't see anyway, just so I can land. Not my idea of teamplay or true effort, but I really hate being a baby seal again. Been there, done that, a long, long time ago.
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Personally I think the 1k icons :rock
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As our squadron decided for the first time to forgo a FSO monthly event, I cannot directly comment on what actually happened in the frame. But as squadron CO I do keep up with all posts and event happenings to try and keep abreast of it all.
As I am not writing to push any agenda at all, as posted by one of my officers, we did not fly this month due to the settings specified from the beginning. The event has become extremely popular in the last year or two due to what it has been from its inception. Though many things progress over the course of time, the basics are what made it what it is. Though I don't expect any one voice (or squad voice) to be of any recourse, as DD has stated to those that choose not to fly "adios" which is fine by all means with no ill feelings as I know what is really meant, but I would think a long standing squad being a no-show would at least raise a brow or 2.
I have to at least say that as one of the original squads of the FSO, there was no doubt on receiving and flying every one that came up with not much question. But with constant tweeks and changes occurring over the past year or so, each setup now is hashed out within the squad command as to whether we will even participate for each one. And for the constant years of those that spout "realism" or "in WWII".... but this is a game and complete realism is a fantasy.
Please, set a standard and keep it... allow all to then choose as to participate every week with that constant. I have utmost respect and appreciation for those designing and running each months FSO. Reinvention of the wheel is not necessary though, let's not forget the basics that over the years made this event what it is.
AKKaz
CO Arabian Knights
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Kaz I was just gonna write what you did...wtg. I agree if designers want to experiment, please give squads the option whether or not they wish to participate without alot of hassle.
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I have to at least say that as one of the original squads of the FSO, there was no doubt on receiving and flying every one that came up with not much question. But with constant tweeks and changes occurring over the past year or so, each setup now is hashed out within the squad command as to whether we will even participate for each one...Please, set a standard and keep it...Reinvention of the wheel is not necessary though, let's not forget the basics that over the years made this event what it is.
Kaz,
The problem right now for you guys and others, is that the folks that are volunteering their time to setup the events want to use their creativity and do some new stuff. There's a lot of new capability in the game that didn't exist 3 years ago, and those guys are trying to explore it and see if it will work within FSO. DD has an opening on the FSO Admin team. I'm sure that with the amount of experience within your squad, one of your guys would be uniquely qualified to be an FSO Admin, and you could make the event look exactly like you guys think it should.
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With all due respect to all squadrons participating in FSO...
It seems to me that the mentality of "If you don't do it our way, we're not flying" is pretty disrespectful to those running the event.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and yours is certainly quite valid. However, to chose not to participate, well that just seems kinda rude. Next thing you know, if you don't get the side you want, well your just not gonna fly. Don't get the aircraft you want....well we're sitting this one out too. Next thing you know it's a circus trying to juggle just who's flying this time and who isn't.
When this setup was designed, squads were assigned and the CM's, CiC's, and supporting squadrons were all counting on having this many slots filled. When you suddenly pull your squad because you don't like the setup, rules, planes, or who's in charge this go round....well you throw a wrench in the works, and that's just not cool. You have, as a squad made a commitment to fly in the FSO, for better or worse. If you don't like the setup, that's quite all right. You adapt, make the best of what you have, and get out there and let the bad guys have it! But you have to at least give it a try.
Sometimes you get the sweet ride, sometimes the lemon. You take your lumps and deal with it knowing that you've done your turn in the trenches.
As stated, this event has become quite awesome over the last couple years, and the tweaking can only improve the event. By trying out new things, you get a good feel for what works, what doesn't, and insight on how to make it even better the next time. It also prevents stagnation, and complacency. If you don't explore new possibilities, you shut down an awful lot of awesome that sits just around the corner.
With that said, party on dudes!
And remember, I said "With all due respect" :aok
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Kaz,
The problem right now for you guys and others, is that the folks that are volunteering their time to setup the events want to use their creativity and do some new stuff. There's a lot of new capability in the game that didn't exist 3 years ago, and those guys are trying to explore it and see if it will work within FSO.
I thought the 4th friday between FSO's was being used for that? Combat Challenge, with the reduced icons.
Everyone appreciates the time the CMs put in, but we are not guinea pigs. FSO is one of the few times I get to play these days, my MA time is nearly zero. I'm not some snotty kid with a box of tissues for a girlfriend living with his parents spending 40 hours a week in the MA. FSO occurs at midday Sat my time, my wife takes the time to make sure my 2 boys are clear so I can have a couple of hours enjoyment to myself a week.
I think there is an overwhelming amount of 'we don't like these icon ranges' feedback. The CM team expects some consistency from squads in FSO, it's part of what makes it so successful. I don't think it's much to ask for the players to get some consistency the other way. You have to ask yourself is FSO the right place to be experimenting with your 'creativity' (personally I think labeling short icon ranges as 'creative' reeks of someone inhaling too deeply).
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With all due respect to all squadrons participating in FSO...
With all due respect maybe you should read a bit more on the issue. It's a playability problem. Reduced icon ranges = reduced (severely) playability for many players. There are some people who argue icons aren't historic, well neither is the visual fidelity of the game. Icons are there as a crutch for the fact the game can never deliver the visual acuity real life provides - end of story. I suggest you do a search of the BBS as this subject has been discussed before in depth including reference USAF research of visibility, depth perception etc, and each time the result was the same, the game cannot deliver what real life provides.
Not only that but some players with smaller screens, less resolution etc are significantly disadvantaged. Then it becomes who spends the most $$$$ on a PC and screen wins.
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I'm not some snotty kid with a box of tissues for a girlfriend living with his parents spending 40 hours a week in the MA. FSO occurs at midday Sat my time, my wife takes the time to make sure my 2 boys are clear so I can have a couple of hours enjoyment to myself a week...You have to ask yourself is FSO the right place to be experimenting with your 'creativity' (personally I think labeling short icon ranges as 'creative' reeks of someone inhaling too deeply).
No, my idea of "creative" spans a bit more than simply changing icons. Its icon settings this week, but my response to Kaz was to address his mention of "tweaks and changes over the past year or so", and not merely those identified with this setup. The guys that run FSO setups are all grown men (30+ years), with real jobs, and some have family responsibilities as well. Somehow, they fight through all of that and are able to find 8-10 hours per frame to run the event. So, yeah, they've earned the right to be creative--its their personal time they're surrendering to put these events together.
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Agreed!!! <<S>>
try to take the good with the bad,
sometimes they ring the bell, sometimes,,,not so much!!!
still, they do a lot of work to show so many of us a good time, now if you can,t take a little heat when things don't bode well,,,I don't know?
My advice would be to not take it personally, most of the people who posted here hopefully only meant to help!
As it turns out, there were a few "other" problems that resulted in adding to this fire that were not the fault of anyone involved !
again <<S>> to all the FSO staff, still the best show going!!! :airplane:
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It seems to me that the mentality of "If you don't do it our way, we're not flying" is pretty disrespectful to those running the event.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and yours is certainly quite valid. However, to chose not to participate, well that just seems kinda rude. Next thing you know, if you don't get the side you want, well your just not gonna fly. Don't get the aircraft you want....well we're sitting this one out too. Next thing you know it's a circus trying to juggle just who's flying this time and who isn't.
Not a problem....
Any squadron may or may not participate for any reason as long as it is updated within the FSO criteria rules. There is no disrespect intended toward anyone, and I'm positive the CM team knows that.
Side numbers, missions and allocations are set AFTER the signup date/time for each event.
As with all involved, everyone has an option......... The point I posted (as many due) is in a way to submit what we see as valid concerns, and great care in the words posted by me are made to be as diplomatic as possible. As with quite a few questionable items that have come up over the years, usually we let them go by as no real need to make any comments because of the possibility that in might be seen as you saw. The difference this time was the fact that I had been previously asked as to why and was not going give an answer to this until this thread came along. My apologies to the event designers if us bowing out caused undo work and stress, I don't beleive this is the case in the slightest. I have much respect for them and their work, and because of that, I am positive they would not be foolish enough to set the scenerio pass or fail based on numbers before they have come in. Hence pre FSO validation requirement.
I am sorry you seen it as such.
Apologies to all, I rarely post, and this went off target... I will have no further comments
<S>
AKKaz
CO Arabian Knights
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No, my idea of "creative" spans a bit more than simply changing icons. Its icon settings this week, but my response to Kaz was to address his mention of "tweaks and changes over the past year or so", and not merely those identified with this setup. The guys that run FSO setups are all grown men (30+ years), with real jobs, and some have family responsibilities as well. Somehow, they fight through all of that and are able to find 8-10 hours per frame to run the event. So, yeah, they've earned the right to be creative--its their personal time they're surrendering to put these events together.
While you are quite right, it does take some time and effort to organize one of these events, it is a mistake to think that dictatorship is the reward for doing the work. I doubt that anyone volunteering his/her time actually expects that sort of reward, being an Indian Chief rings hollow if there are no Indians. Folks who come here and fly in these things and make time to do it on a Friday night also deserve some consideration, and if they don't get it they may choose to opt out.
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I doubt that anyone volunteering his/her time actually expects that sort of reward, being an Indian Chief rings hollow if there are no Indians. Folks who come here and fly in these things and make time to do it on a Friday night also deserve some consideration, and if they don't get it they may choose to opt out.
First, the guys that put these events together want to create events that people enjoy--period. That is ultimately the first and foremost goal. Fun--its really that simple. If you guys will acknowledge that, and stop accusing them of "wrecking" the event, it would improve the environment to discuss the settings.
Second, its great to have an opinion, and to even express that opinion vociferously, but to threaten to stop participating unless the event is run just the way you personally think it should is wrong. For every one of those folks who don't like the short icons, I can find someone that does. For every one that decries some of the attempts at "realism" in FSO, I can find the same number who think it doesn't go far enough. The only difference is that you don't see those people telling folks they're going to walk unless the event is crafted exactly the way they think it should be.
And again, I'll challenge the community, that if you have strong ideas on how FSO should be setup, contact DD and volunteer for that open FSO Admin position.
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Ive been biteing my tounge on this one but it needs to be said. When your biggest support is from a squad that got kicked out of FSO,you seriously need to take a look at what your promoting. Cause your so far from right you should be ashamed.
what squad might that be?
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I might be way off base here, but how many people were really aware of the radar / icons settings before the outset of the frame? I was commanding the 68th on Friday, had read the orders and set-up notes numerous times (both of which had the settings plain to see) and I failed to pick up on it. I'm guessing I wasn't the only one. As a result, our tactics were way off.
I'm guessing frame 1 was somewhat chaotic as people were caught off-guard and struggled to adapt to the changes. Frames 2 and 3 should be a better indication of what a frame run under these settings are really like. I didn't particularly enjoy Friday, but I'm putting that down to me being ill-prepared - I'm quite happy to give it another couple of frames to see how it shakes out.
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....its great to have an opinion, and to even express that opinion vociferously, but to threaten to stop participating unless the event is run just the way you personally think it should is wrong. For every one of those folks who don't like the short icons, I can find someone that does. For every one that decries some of the attempts at "realism" in FSO, I can find the same number who think it doesn't go far enough. The only difference is that you don't see those people telling folks they're going to walk unless the event is crafted exactly the way they think it should be.
I'm gonna quit if the icon range isn't made even shorter...and if there isn't more realism added...and if I don't get my "I Win" button..and if etc. :furious
Ok Ok...Im joking...everyone relax sphincters. :P
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Second, its great to have an opinion, and to even express that opinion vociferously, but to threaten to stop participating unless the event is run just the way you personally think it should is wrong. For every one of those folks who don't like the short icons, I can find someone that does. For every one that decries some of the attempts at "realism" in FSO, I can find the same number who think it doesn't go far enough. The only difference is that you don't see those people telling folks they're going to walk unless the event is crafted exactly the way they think it should be
Well it seems the ones that like short icons are not matching the dislike so far in this thread? As for opting out if the setup is undesirable, I guess that is the way folks in America make decisions everyday? Why buy a Ford over a Toyota, they both get you where your going? You seem to be saying that any idea a designer wants to put forward should met with open arms, regardless of how the participants feel about it, I doubt very much that idea will fly for long.
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Well it seems the ones that like short icons are not matching the dislike so far in this thread? As for opting out if the setup is undesirable, I guess that is the way folks in America make decisions everyday? Why buy a Ford over a Toyota, they both get you where your going? You seem to be saying that any idea a designer wants to put forward should met with open arms, regardless of how the participants feel about it, I doubt very much that idea will fly for long.
I'm not talking about arbitrarily turning the sky pink or yellow. Do what you want.
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It was said months ago that the current crop of CMs was hell bent on reducing icon ranges to 0. Everyone said that would never happen. We are slowly being conditioned to accept this ridiculous/gameplay killing setup. The majority of the players hate short icon ranges. Not only that, short icons are UNFAIR to players with small screens and or bad eyesight. Despite this fact, the CMs insist on forcing this crappy gameplay down our throats. I think some people are too intent on recreating history when they SHOULD be focused on creating compelling gameplay situations based in a historical setting. These are not historical reenactments. We play a game..thats right folks..you are not real fighter pilots. This is not WWII. This is a game. And games need to be fair, balanced and fun.
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Damn right, Otaz! More realism! I'm giving AH 2-weeks notice. If they haven't found a way for us to actually feel the G's while maneuvering (sans just blacking out), by this deadline, I'm out of here. I also think we should be banned from all arenas, for 1-week, anytime we get shot down/crash. Hey, maybe we can come up with a way to experience wounds received. How about a real paycheck, prorated of course, to match the inflation of the last 60-years or so? :x
Let's see if this raises the level of gullibility a notch or two. :neener:
Just out of curiousity, to those being the most personally negative towards the scenario designers, have you ever volunteered to create one for others to enjoy? If so, is this payback for all the BS you had to take because all didn't see eye-to-eye with you and your creation? If not, why don't y'all dream one up so we can personally browbeat your lineage?
Shoot the message, not the messenger that delivered it.
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Damn right, Otaz! More realism! I'm giving AH 2-weeks notice. If they haven't found a way for us to actually feel the G's while maneuvering (sans just blacking out), by this deadline, I'm out of here. I also think we should be banned from all arenas, for 1-week, anytime we get shot down/crash. Hey, maybe we can come up with a way to experience wounds received. How about a real paycheck, prorated of course, to match the inflation of the last 60-years or so? :x
Let's see if this raises the level of gullibility a notch or two. :neener:
Just out of curiousity, to those being the most personally negative towards the scenario designers, have you ever volunteered to create one for others to enjoy? If so, is this payback for all the BS you had to take because all didn't see eye-to-eye with you and your creation? If not, why don't y'all dream one up so we can personally browbeat your lineage?
Did you ever personally build a car from scratch if not I don't see why your driving one??? :rolleyes:
Shoot the message, not the messenger that delivered it.
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And again, I'll challenge the community, that if you have strong ideas on how FSO should be setup, contact DD and volunteer for that open FSO Admin position.
So our apps can be rejected for previously voicing strong opinions?
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Well it seems the ones that like short icons are not matching the dislike so far in this thread? As for opting out if the setup is undesirable, I guess that is the way folks in America make decisions everyday? Why buy a Ford over a Toyota, they both get you where your going? You seem to be saying that any idea a designer wants to put forward should met with open arms, regardless of how the participants feel about it, I doubt very much that idea will fly for long.
This isn't directed at you specifically Boxboy, but I'd like to point out that, as someone who's been an admin for many games (CoD:UO, MoH:AA, Jedi Academy among others) as well as being a former beta tester for many of the current popular MMOs (WoW, LotRO, Age of Conan, PotBS etc) and admin'd several forums over the years, rarely do the people who agree with a setup or topic of discussion support said setup or discussion with the same fervor as those who are against it. Just because the "yays" don't make as much of a concentrated effort in a forum debate defending their position on an issue as the "nays" do, doesn't mean that the nays win the debate or that there are greater numbers "against" rather than "for"...it just means that some people are content with things as they are or have no opinion one way or the other and feel no need to defend their position to those who can not "agree to disagree".
In past experiences, I've found that the silent masses who agree with or are at least indifferent to an issue (such as the shorter icon ranges in this particular case) often outnumber those who are vehemently opposed to the change, and often to the point where threats of quitting their subscriptions (and/or boycotting a volunteer created event) are used in a futile attempt to try and get their way. Many times, those that do quit, come back, and those that don't, are replaced by other players. I would bet that a majority of the players would continue to play the game if the icon range was shortened by half. Most just want to enjoy the game and would be tolerant as long as they have a game to play.
In the end, the game goes on, the developers continue to develop their games the way they feel is best, and volunteers, CMs, Event planners/Admins, etc, continue to step forward to enhance the game for all which many times leads to a beating from the vocal minority who seem to always find something to complain about.
:aok :rock and :salute to the volunteers and all they do to enhance the game...and thanx.
C'ya in this Friday's FSO and hopefully, many more to come no matter what the setup is.
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It was said months ago that the current crop of CMs was hell bent on reducing icon ranges to 0. Everyone said that would never happen. We are slowly being conditioned to accept this ridiculous/gameplay killing setup. The majority of the players hate short icon ranges. Not only that, short icons are UNFAIR to players with small screens and or bad eyesight. Despite this fact, the CMs insist on forcing this crappy gameplay down our throats. I think some people are too intent on recreating history when they SHOULD be focused on creating compelling gameplay situations based in a historical setting. These are not historical reenactments. We play a game..thats right folks..you are not real fighter pilots. This is not WWII. This is a game. And games need to be fair, balanced and fun.
So are you going to push to force a ban on HOTAS and joystick setups because they are UNFAIR?
This game has progressed to the point where everyone should be flying on a decent sized screen. If your not, then that's your choice. Most 22"+ sized flat panel screens can be bought for less than $150 bucks. That's what I got mine for, and that was over a year ago.
Most joysticks cost at LEAST $150 bucks, don't even get me going on a HOTAS setup and rudder pedals. All those buttons and the Hands On Throttle and Stick definitely give a HUGE advantage to those without a HOTAS or even a cheaper joystick. Yet no one ever complains about them being an UNFAIR advantage.
If your going to complain that people can't see or afford a decent monitor, then at least spread the dough around to make a proper cake.
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I said this 5 months ago in an 11 page long thread about icons that had to do with the Combat Challenge.
As I have said in other threads the Arena Settings which include icon ranges are up to each Admin CM. I don't see making icons off an FSO standard despite many asking for that last night. I have an FSO this summer and will probably fiddle with the icons as I did in my last one, but it is my impression (which could be wrong) that most Admin's for FSO will keep the standard short range icon settings we have used successfully for years.
But I must be a liar according to some of you. I say one thing and do another. I should point out that it is 'this' summer and I am fiddling with the icon settings. ;) You guys had a 5 month heads up.
Boxboy all that you got for your belligerent efforts. ;)
You are ignoring this user. Show me the post.
I just love that feature of the HTC forums. If someone can't make a point without being rude and insulting others you don't have to read their posts. :)
I take it then that you OWN this event DD, nice to know that we are just pawns for you to experiment with.
Nope Boxboy, don't own it. Just started it back in 2001 I think. :D
The majority of the players hate short icon ranges.
I missed that poll BigR. Could you show me choices and where the FSO players took it? I would like to participate. :) Oh, and don't forget I think I said that myself 5 months ago. ;)
It was said months ago that the current crop of CMs was hell bent on reducing icon ranges to 0. Everyone said that would never happen.
Well, apparently not everyone ,because when everyone was saying it would never happen some were saying the current crop of CM's were hell bent on reducing icon ranges to 0. ;)
Other than this last frame how many other times have we 'messed' with the icon ranges this year in FSO? Anyone know? You would think by the very first post in this long thread Why do you guys insist on messing with these ranges?
that we do it every month. If my memory serves the last time was in 2009.
I was contacted by the AK's prior and was made aware of their choice not to participate long before I divided up the squads. Not only did they make me aware they did the work themselves by updating their squad and marking themselves 'not-active'. I did not have to do a thing. I did inquire privately as to why and did not receive a reply until this public thread, but I did believe then was due to the icon settings.
As far as squad participation I don't see this any different than getting an AC you don't like. If squads committed to a certain number it is reasonable for us to expect them to honor that. Many of you have stated you will participate despite your not liking the settings. Hats off to you. Others have said they will not show up. We have already had one squad not show up and ruin the night of another squad they were supposed to escort. We don't need squads like that in FSO and they will be removed.
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Other than this last frame how many other times have we 'messed' with the icon ranges this year in FSO? Anyone know? You would think by the very first post in this long thread that we do it every month. If my memory serves the last time was in 2009.
Sorry daddog but I distinctly remember several occasions this year where the icon range was 'accidentally' set wrong. So far iirc it's always been short, never long. Maybe they were genuine mistakes but you can't blame people for wondering.
You noted the poll (or lack thereof). Perhaps an email from the CM's to the squads would have been warranted?
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How about we just make it 3.0 and call it good huh?
Half as far as the MA and still good enuff for the handicap players (small screens/poor eyesight) to have fun.
And make it a standard for FSOs so we always know what to expect.
This squabbling is getting nowhere.
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I don't blame anyone for wondering, but many have made comments that would lead other to believe that we have changed the icons in several designs and that is not the case. To be more specific I don't recall any design with the icons set to short, but if you want to count mistakes so be it.
BigR said The majority of the players hate short icon ranges.
I stated 5 months ago that I thought this to be true. He has stated it as a fact which it is not. I did not feel a need to poll the players and still don't.
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Its the same people squeaking about the icons every f**king time. Turn the icons off and we'll have a hell of a time.
Vlkyrie1
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Did you ever personally build a car from scratch if not I don't see why your driving one???
That's an easy one. I like the one I'm driving and not ranting about the manufacturer that built it.
I love relevant analogies...
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As far as squad participation I don't see this any different than getting an AC you don't like.
Theres a HUGE diff here. I have always held that I will fly whatever Im given to fly and not wine about it. I know what the plane can and cant do and will act accordingly. The issue is in the normal settings you have time to decide what your going to do with said plane. Now you can be engaged from 20 directions all at once and never see it coming.
I think what most are saying is the fun factor gets seriously reduced when your spending your entire time checking every dot in sight wondering not only is it a friendly,but is it close enough to be a threat or not.
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In my humble opinion, it is the responsibility of each participating player to take the 3 minutes out of thier time to log on to the internet, log onto AH special events and head to the area marked FSO to look at the current set-up to read the entire page of information. Simple 3 minutes out of 10,080 minutes in one week.
If players can't find 3 minutes out of 10,080 to choose from and not know the conditions of the Frame, then why are they complaining?
Laziness is no excuse for disgruntlement.
The AK's took a look at the set-up and opted out for issues with the icons and some of us wanted to take a break and spend more time in the MA's on friday night doinf squad activities. Three minutes a few conversations did that.
If individual players have problems with the set-up, then take that to your squad leadership and in-house discuss going inactive for a tour or two. It's not a hard thing to do.
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Evil is in the land and on the march. The only way that daddog can be stopped now is to have the "ring of icons" melted down from where it was forged, in the fires of the MA's Titanic Tuesdays mount doom in grid 10.10.1. It will not be an easy task however, as the great CM EYE sits atop the arena. A great lidless eye wreathed with flame, filled with hate, and ringed in darkness (and Rook bases) that can see past d5k. daddog senses victory, so close now, searching as he does with squadrons of all black Bf 110s flying below 500 ft to avoid detection. All those that want to plunge AH Events into a great no icon darkness that will completely envelope all of Aces High march to his banner. The last Free Arena, the AvA, has fallen, only FSO remains, but can they stand alone?
...Or, maybe a few folks need to get some summer sun and have a BBQ? ;)
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Squire, seriously, I am ROFLMAO
:aok
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Evil is in the land and on the march. The only way that daddog can be stopped now is to have the "ring of icons" melted down from where it was forged, in the fires of the MA's Titanic Tuesdays mount doom in grid 10.10.1. It will not be an easy task however, as the great CM EYE sits atop the arena. A great lidless eye wreathed with flame, filled with hate, and ringed in darkness (and Rook bases) that can see past d5k. daddog senses victory, so close now, searching as he does with squadrons of all black Bf 110s flying below 500 ft to avoid detection. All those that want to plunge AH Events into a great no icon darkness that will completely envelope all of Aces High march to his banner. The last Free Arena, the AvA, has fallen, only FSO remains, but can they stand alone?
...Or, maybe a few folks need to get some summer sun and have a BBQ? ;)
:rofl :aok
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I'm sure it's been mentioned before....
But Squire sparked my memory and a concept i've seen used before. It had to do with Icons getting "lighter" or more "faint" depending on how long you were looking at them. So they'd get brighter until fully lit if you focus'd your vision on them, but if you looked away for a few seconds, it forced you to "re-aquire" the target. I'm sure this is probably a coding issue and not simply a switch that can be turned on/off.
Anyway, Squire jogged my memory and I remebered that I thought that was pretty cool. Might be an awesome comprimise.
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I was stupid and did not catch the icon set up note. It was a surprise when I spotted my first bandit. I was challenged by this set up. I enjoyed it alot. I look forward to the next 2 weeks of no icons. I look forward to future FSO's and shall compete with the best of my ability with whatever I am given.
And this shall continue. Up to a point certainly. Maybe my threshold of dissatisfation is higher than yours. I would not want to be playing the same game forever, as new developments are made and options can be considered, an experiment to revue how playable those options would have to be tried, analyized and then decided on as to its merits.
<S> JG77 is privileged to participate in the FSO and we thank those involved.
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Short, tall icons, their all good... :rock
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_bDr51TRMj0IABKWjzbkF/SIG=12fkvdnai/EXP=1278617465/**http%3a//i327.photobucket.com/albums/k468/dburlewg/MIDGET.jpg)
LMAO!
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But Squire sparked my memory and a concept i've seen used before. It had to do with Icons getting "lighter" or more "faint" depending on how long you were looking at them.
I always thought that was kinda cool. A few years back I tried WWIIOL and they had it setup that way in the air. I had it in my head HTC tried it very briefly years ago, but I was probably thinking of WWIIOL. Would be a neat option I would like to try, but not one the CM's have.
Pretty funny Squire. :)
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This isn't directed at you specifically Boxboy, but I'd like to point out that, as someone who's been an admin for many games (CoD:UO, MoH:AA, Jedi Academy among others) as well as being a former beta tester for many of the current popular MMOs (WoW, LotRO, Age of Conan, PotBS etc) and admin'd several forums over the years, rarely do the people who agree with a setup or topic of discussion support said setup or discussion with the same fervor as those who are against it. Just because the "yays" don't make as much of a concentrated effort in a forum debate defending their position on an issue as the "nays" do, doesn't mean that the nays win the debate or that there are greater numbers "against" rather than "for"...it just means that some people are content with things as they are or have no opinion one way or the other and feel no need to defend their position to those who can not "agree to disagree"
Wow talk about a convient arguement LOL, I am right because the "silent majority" is for me. Maybe the "Silent Majority" hate short icons but just don't bother to post? BTW I can point to several failed games in the "computer gaming world" because they refused to listen to their player base. Everquest comes to mind, they were fine while no competition existed but when WoW came out they started to die, BTW my son worked for Vivendi at the time WoW came out.
Thanks for the headsup DD since you think ignoring the problem will make it go away, no sense in talking to you any further or having anything to do with anything you run.
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Wow talk about a convient arguement LOL, I am right because the "silent majority" is for me. Maybe the "Silent Majority" hate short icons but just don't bother to post? BTW I can point to several failed games in the "computer gaming world" because they refused to listen to their player base. Everquest comes to mind, they were fine while no competition existed but when WoW came out they started to die, BTW my son worked for Vivendi at the time WoW came out.
Thanks for the headsup DD since you think ignoring the problem will make it go away, no sense in talking to you any further or having anything to do with anything you run.
I never said "I" was right about anything or that I had the "silent masses" on my side. I said "I" had no issue with the devs or CMs changing settings (and hopefully with the intent of finding/fixing balance or enhancing gameplay). That isn't a right or wrong view, it's just stating my own tolerance of change.
As for the "silent masses", I used that phrase because its rather unlikely that "all" players actually post on any game's main forums, in fact, I'd bet most don't even read, let alone post on, forums other than to look for hints, tips, and tech support. So it's humorous when the "nay sayers" claim that they have the majority when its more likely the majority probably doesn't even know there's a debate, or even care. And I never said anyone was wrong for their opinions either, I respect and will defend anyone's right to their opinions...but I will (and did) take issue with those making threats if they don't get their way. That's a confrontational/bully tactic and only serves to make those that can make the changes, decide against doing so for no other reason than they are now angry. "You attract more flies with honey...." and that whole bit.
As for your point that games like Everquest died because the developers didn't listen to their subscribers...it "may" have had some effect, but its more likely that people played the games well beyond their end game content and were bored, and the developers ran out of ideas for new content without it being "rinse and repeat", and they were probably ready for the "next new" thing anyways. It happens to ALL games (and even technology things like cellphones and DVD players) eventually, and especially when developers hit on something new and unique like Blizzard did with some of the features in WoW. Now it seems about every MMORPG has WoW influenced parts to it such as the talent tree system, and even some that preceded WoW have adopted WoW features (Star Wars Galaxies for example). Games are like technology, when the next newest idea hits, everyone floods to it until the next newest thing comes along..and when that happens...the old technology fades out over time (VCRs, Super 8mm, or 8 tracks anyone?).
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Well i hear what you are saying, but I just cannot fly short/no icons so I am not trying to "bully" anyone I am just unable to play due a set of rules that opt me out the mix and if anything I am whinning about that. I have now made a decision to drop FSO from list of things to do and have withdrawn from my squad to keep them out of the situation since I think they still want to fly FSO. I never complained about which plane I got or which side or what the assignment was but this short icon thing is impossible for me to fly and be anything but a target drone. Therefore I am out, I have enjoyed most of the FSO's I have flown up until this it is too bad but if this is where it is going I have no choice but to quit.
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Well i hear what you are saying, but I just cannot fly short/no icons so I am not trying to "bully" anyone I am just unable to play due a set of rules that opt me out the mix and if anything I am whinning about that. I have now made a decision to drop FSO from list of things to do and have withdrawn from my squad to keep them out of the situation since I think they still want to fly FSO. I never complained about which plane I got or which side or what the assignment was but this short icon thing is impossible for me to fly and be anything but a target drone. Therefore I am out, I have enjoyed most of the FSO's I have flown up until this it is too bad but if this is where it is going I have no choice but to quit.
It's only for two more weeks why quit the FSO and your squad over a temporary setting?
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Well i hear what you are saying, but I just cannot fly short/no icons so I am not trying to "bully" anyone I am just unable to play due a set of rules that opt me out the mix and if anything I am whinning about that. I have now made a decision to drop FSO from list of things to do and have withdrawn from my squad to keep them out of the situation since I think they still want to fly FSO. I never complained about which plane I got or which side or what the assignment was but this short icon thing is impossible for me to fly and be anything but a target drone. Therefore I am out, I have enjoyed most of the FSO's I have flown up until this it is too bad but if this is where it is going I have no choice but to quit.
Believe me, I know about being a target drone. I joke about being our squad's punching bag all the time cause I don't stand a chance against any of them, plus I get beat up regularly in the MAs as well. :P But I have gotten to know some of the guys in my squad and despite getting my arse handed to me over and over, they are really good guys and I expect sooner or later (probably more later than anything LOL) I will learn how to fight with them ( or at least get a lucky shot once in a while. :rofl)
But I honestly hate to see that you are willing to even quit even your squad over this issue. Ok, if you want to withdraw from being in FSO's (temporarily I hope) because you don't agree with the settings, I can understand that...but its a bit drastic to quit your squad as well, isn't it? Not everyone is going to agree on things, even within squads, player associations, guilds, etc...but if they are good people and good friends, they won't mind the difference of opinions.
"People who mind, don't matter...and people that matter, don't mind." :salute
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Last Night 68Hawk ran the Frame 02 Snap shot with "no ICON's". Having never flown or fought that way I figured I should at least try. <S> 68Hawk and the CM's that put on these events.
Given this lengthy discussion thought I would add to it again.
Flying without ICON's was the worst experience I have ever had in AHII and I've been here for a few days at this point. It was wasn't fun. And I can tell you I won't fly in another event in which ICON's are turned off completely. Not exactly the discussion here as we are discussing "short" ICON's. But there are similarities.
The AXIS players (my side) did what we could do by selecting bright or flashy skins and staying together at least until we engaged the enemy. After that however there wasn't a good way at all to distinguish friend from foe. Understand this was a 20 on 20 AC meeting engagement Co-Alt. German vs. Russian iron. At one point I chased a fellow for about 60 seconds before I could tell for sure that he was a friendly, or at least I believe he was and let him go. With my computer capability I had to close closer than 200' before I could really tell what i was looking at. And then I wasn't completely sure so i elected not to pull the trigger. I am sure that if I could closed to visual range of the skin I could have distinguished him for sure.
6K ICON's for the "Squad" level events is the way to go and I am sure of it now. Make adjustments to the settings in the other events and allow personnel to experience it first hand. I encourage all to experience it first hand. Making adjustments to the FSO ICON range isn't the way to go in my opinion.
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Do NOT TELL ME WHAT CAN’T BE DONE!
I am legally blind, with 20/400 + vision corrected (with glasses)! I cannot drive, I have to use a 22” screen and sit 12 inches from it in order to fly. To see a non/low icon dot I have to move my face to within 1” of the screen (I know I’m too close when my nose touches). To take a shot on a target 400 Meters away I have to use the Zoom function so the piper fills the screen and I still have to lean forward from time to time. But I do it all anyway.
Is it more difficult to fly without the crutch of icons? YES! Is it next to impossible to determine range and closure? Absolutely! Do I fair better with Icons set at longer (3k+) distances. Sure thing! Would I like to see the Icon ranges set to back to 3k (IMHO about what they should be for a 20/20 pilot)? Your damd Right. But will I ever take my ball and go home because the game is not what I like. NOT A CHANCE IN HELL. It’s a commitment gentleman, and we’ve got to stand tall. The CM’s will try different stuff as they become available. And you can’t judge success or failure of something from only one data point. I think we can ride this one out – now that EVERYONE is fully aware of the settings change – and see how it goes for the rest of the frame.
This month I have volunteered to plan the missions for my squad, and Frame 1 was my very first ever. The professional military pilots of my squad have told me that my mission brief package was one of the most professional ever, and my only lament was that because I missed the Icon setting change my wonderful plan was not fully realized. I attribute the fact that I missed the Icon setting change, and my inability to infer its consequences, to my lack of experience in this facet of the FSO. But I will NOT make that mistake this FSO. I expect there to be a lot of NOE raids due to the <500 no icon rule (a bit generous I think), but I will take that into account when I plan the next mission.
And remember, the less you have the better you become.
-- We who have done so much, with so little, are now fully qualified to do anything with nothing at all.
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And remember, the less you have the better you become.
-- We who have done so much, with so little, are now fully qualified to do anything with nothing at all.
That's an awesome point of view. :aok
:salute InCrypt
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1- I'm in the other camp. I love flying with no icons. Maybe it's not for FSO, but I really do enjoy it.
2- Wowzers, I can't believe this thread is still going! :eek:
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:salute incrypt ...
imo :aok on no icons ...
it has long been well established that these kinds of settings can level the playing field,
and it is refreshing to focus on the SA component of ACM rather than the many other often questioned
aspects of this video game.
+S+
t
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The CM’s will try different stuff as they become available. And you can’t judge success or failure of something from only one data point. I think we can ride this one out – now that EVERYONE is fully aware of the settings change – and see how it goes for the rest of the frame.
Thank you sir. :salute
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Simply make them the same for both sides (1K, 3K, 6K...).
When you are within 3K of a friendly and there is an enemy con in between with no icon, it is very easy to mistake that con for a friendly further away until you are becoming victim to a HO shot or a ram. Point is that depth perception (especially for those with vision disabilities) is hard to judge. Not impossible, but will more than likely end you up in the tower.
Often times, our squad rehearses without icons so we can be preparred. But... ...IMO for FSO, considering the planning and grief that goes into getting upwards of 20 drunk guys in the cartoon air, the settings should be established for the year and stick with it.
I would consider though, make the distance the same for both sides. :pray
See ya on Friday! :airplane:
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Do NOT TELL ME WHAT CAN’T BE DONE!
I am legally blind, with 20/400 + vision corrected (with glasses)! I cannot drive, I have to use a 22” screen and sit 12 inches from it in order to fly. To see a non/low icon dot I have to move my face to within 1” of the screen (I know I’m too close when my nose touches). To take a shot on a target 400 Meters away I have to use the Zoom function so the piper fills the screen and I still have to lean forward from time to time. But I do it all anyway.
Is it more difficult to fly without the crutch of icons? YES! Is it next to impossible to determine range and closure? Absolutely! Do I fair better with Icons set at longer (3k+) distances. Sure thing! Would I like to see the Icon ranges set to back to 3k (IMHO about what they should be for a 20/20 pilot)? Your damd Right. But will I ever take my ball and go home because the game is not what I like. NOT A CHANCE IN HELL. It’s a commitment gentleman, and we’ve got to stand tall. The CM’s will try different stuff as they become available. And you can’t judge success or failure of something from only one data point. I think we can ride this one out – now that EVERYONE is fully aware of the settings change – and see how it goes for the rest of the frame.
This month I have volunteered to plan the missions for my squad, and Frame 1 was my very first ever. The professional military pilots of my squad have told me that my mission brief package was one of the most professional ever, and my only lament was that because I missed the Icon setting change my wonderful plan was not fully realized. I attribute the fact that I missed the Icon setting change, and my inability to infer its consequences, to my lack of experience in this facet of the FSO. But I will NOT make that mistake this FSO. I expect there to be a lot of NOE raids due to the <500 no icon rule (a bit generous I think), but I will take that into account when I plan the next mission.
And remember, the less you have the better you become.
-- We who have done so much, with so little, are now fully qualified to do anything with nothing at all.
The best damn post I have seen in some time!
:salute
Edgar
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S! InCrypt Well said.
Not a huge fan of this data point either, but don't want to limit the Chiefs from tinkering.
Hang in there Daddog!
Cheers,
-Mo
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Do NOT TELL ME WHAT CAN’T BE DONE!
I am legally blind, with 20/400 + vision corrected (with glasses)! I cannot drive, I have to use a 22” screen and sit 12 inches from it in order to fly. To see a non/low icon dot I have to move my face to within 1” of the screen (I know I’m too close when my nose touches). To take a shot on a target 400 Meters away I have to use the Zoom function so the piper fills the screen and I still have to lean forward from time to time. But I do it all anyway.
Is it more difficult to fly without the crutch of icons? YES! Is it next to impossible to determine range and closure? Absolutely! Do I fair better with Icons set at longer (3k+) distances. Sure thing! Would I like to see the Icon ranges set to back to 3k (IMHO about what they should be for a 20/20 pilot)? Your damd Right. But will I ever take my ball and go home because the game is not what I like. NOT A CHANCE IN HELL. It’s a commitment gentleman, and we’ve got to stand tall. The CM’s will try different stuff as they become available. And you can’t judge success or failure of something from only one data point. I think we can ride this one out – now that EVERYONE is fully aware of the settings change – and see how it goes for the rest of the frame.
This month I have volunteered to plan the missions for my squad, and Frame 1 was my very first ever. The professional military pilots of my squad have told me that my mission brief package was one of the most professional ever, and my only lament was that because I missed the Icon setting change my wonderful plan was not fully realized. I attribute the fact that I missed the Icon setting change, and my inability to infer its consequences, to my lack of experience in this facet of the FSO. But I will NOT make that mistake this FSO. I expect there to be a lot of NOE raids due to the <500 no icon rule (a bit generous I think), but I will take that into account when I plan the next mission.
And remember, the less you have the better you become.
-- We who have done so much, with so little, are now fully qualified to do anything with nothing at all.
<<<S>>> Brillant sir, well put.
Uncorrected my vision is 20/400 so without my contact lens I know exactly what you are dealing with. Pretty damn sure I couldn't do it.
:salute Your humble servant.
Work with what you got, learn from it............
"In the land of the blind, a one eyed man would be king!"
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Short icons are part of the FSO experience. Get separated from your group and the anxiety goes way up while you're alone and trying to find everyone. Even more so while in enemy airspace. It makes you pay attention more and fly smarter to ensure that you either don't get separated in the first place, or can communicate and read the map to find them again.
Icons at 3k across the board makes the most sense, but I'm there to fly and do my best with whatever plane/mission I'm given and the settings that the designer thinks fits his design.
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My turn. Hopefully the final word. First, Thank You for all the nice comments about the people who spend their time setting up and running FSO. Your praise and the fun we see from the people who do get to fly is what makes it all worth it! :salute Several new things were tried in this FSO, not just icons. There is the low icon off deck, tower radar, fog settings, no alt cap and a pre-dawn launch with a X3 multiplier. You launch at 0500 and land 6 hours later with only 2 hours passing on your clock. We even changed the color of the sky so you would have a great dawn. I didn't see any screen shots. For those who were "surpised" about the icon settings... shame on you. It was in the objectives. They have been posted for several weeks. Finally, we almost never change settings in the middle of the frame. Daddog does not "own" FSO but he is the designer, I am just the builder. These guys agonize for weeks if not months on how to design a frame. This event orginally called for Spit 8's but they were ditched becuase no Spit 8's flew out of England. Did you know that? No one experimented with you guys. He wanted to build an FSO where surviving gave the best score. If I posted his stats I would be fired. But prior to Frame 1 Daddog posted on the private board the survivabilty statistics for the last 6 FSOs. This is something Daddog worked at. Please fly. Please try to have fun. It's FSO, it is suppose to be a little unpredictiable. What a surprise, low visibility over England..... <S> Snake.
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I think it's kind of funny that this has gone all the way to conspiracy theories. I think the level of passion exhibited here shows that a lot of people love these events. I'll take that to mean the FSO team is really doing something right!
With respect to the icon settings:
I'm not going to comment on future setups, as I'm not on the FSO team and that's not my lane. I will say that it's a little disheartening to see people unwilling to try new things for a couple weeks. Flying with low icon settings takes some getting used to, especially when we've become so used to having that visual queue. I had a really hard time last week, and even got hit by a German I never saw coming. Luckily I didn't take any damage. It was a good lesson in SA for me. I liked the challenge.
Regardless of your position on situations that may arise in events, please know that all CM's take as their main priority the quality of their events and the enjoyment of all attendees. We do take all suggestions very deeply to heart, but at the same time, demands and accusations disrupt the creative process. We strive to bring everyone quality and dynamic events, and 99% of the time we deliver very solidly. We ask only your patience and constructive feedback when we mistake a setting here and there, or when the best laid plans don't seem to survive the first engagement.
Gotta go preflight my bird for tonight. I'm gonna need all the luck I can get!
See you in the air!
:salute
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For me FSO represents flying as you would have in the real thing, if only a little.
In the past with 6.0k settings I might have furballed or turned a little more that perhaps prudent. With the new settings I curtailed that greatly, it was just too risky and ill advised. As a 109 G2 pilot I stayed fast, whether above, below or smack dab in the middle of the fight. At one point I had 6 enemy fighters three to four thousand feet above me, totally clueless to my presence. I knew who they were just by looking at the dot and color scheme, I informed country channel too. This type of dynamic has not happened much in FSO, perhaps not at all until recently.
I loved it....
When I know what type of aircraft to expect I can easily pick out enemy type well before 6k icon range. What I cant do is enter a turn fight and keep track of all the dots, memorizing who is who. The icons are a crutch in this type of fight, they let you keep track of cons. I was around many, many cons at times tonight and was often left alone due to identification. Knowing who was who without icons allowed me to be very aggressive at times when I got into the bomber stream. As a technical pilot, I was at home, being a smart flier allowed me to use the icons in my favor.
I think in the end people that show success under this format will be the ones who adapt and learn, as with anything. If you want the MA thats fine, but the short icons literally caused me to subscribe again. After losing most of my electronics to a lightning strike I seriously doubted I would ever fly AH again, due to cost alone. However, after reading the forums a bit and seeing this I dusted off the old X52 I have and plopped onto my chair. I hope they stay this way, let the MA be the MA and let FSO be about challenging flying and fighting.
Thanks to the 367th for letting me fly with them as well...
Strip
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For me FSO represents flying as you would have in the real thing, if only a little.
As a 109 G2 pilot I stayed fast, whether above, below or smack dab in the middle of the fight. At one point I had 6 enemy fighters three to four thousand feet above me, totally clueless to my presence. I knew who they were just by looking at the dot and color scheme, I informed country channel too. This type of dynamic has not happened much in FSO, perhaps not at all until recently.
I loved it....
When I know what type of aircraft to expect I can easily pick out enemy type well before 6k icon range. What I cant do is enter a turn fight and keep track of all the dots, memorizing who is who. The icons are a crutch in this type of fight, they let you keep track of cons. I was around many, many cons at times tonight and was often left alone due to identification. Knowing who was who without icons allowed me to be very aggressive at times when I got into the bomber stream. As a technical pilot, I was at home, being a smart flier allowed me to use the icons in my favor.
I think in the end people that show success under this format will be the ones who adapt and learn, as with anything. If you want the MA thats fine, but the short icons literally caused me to subscribe again. After losing most of my electronics to a lightning strike I seriously doubted I would ever fly AH again, due to cost alone. However, after reading the forums a bit and seeing this I dusted off the old X52 I have and plopped onto my chair. I hope they stay this way, let the MA be the MA let the no icons AvsA be the no icons AvsA and let FSO be about challenging flying and fighting with squads against squads.
Thanks to the 367th for letting me fly with them as well...
Strip
I hope you don't mind, Strip, Sir...... but I fixed/edited your post quoted above...... you forgot the AvsA :aok
regarding the blue quoted text above: I have what I think is a fairly High Performing PC for AH, and can max out everything even using high res 1024 textures and keep near solid 70 FPS....... I be damned if I can identify what I am fighting over 1.2K yards out barely at 1,000 yards and no icons on....
I want to know what I have to do to see these planes and identfy them at 1.5K or 2K or 3K out without icons..... and my eyesight is last tested 20/15 right eye 20/20 left eye a year ago....... a dang pixel dot on a PC is not the same as real life........ so why do people claim that it is MORE REALISTIC without icons, seriously......
the game is unrealistic in this comparison to real life when I can sit a mile away fromt he airport and tell what is taking off and landing, or see different military planes flying 10,000 feet to 20,000 ft above me and can easily identify what they are....
that is why the game has icons.......
I personally have adjusted to accept the fact that the CT ( er now called AvsA ) arena will prob never be what I once loved, and will fly there when I can not find anything better to do..... but last night's FSO for me completely was not worth even rushing to log in to the game to play........ to me I saw more gang type flying and more fight avoiding than I have ever experienced in an FSO..... in the past what 9 years??? 8 years??? FSO has been here.......
10 planes diving on 2 or 3 is not what I want to experience in FSO nor in any Scenario that might be in the near future with the no icon enemy settings and lowered friendly icon settings........
it was not 1K.. it was either enemy showed up eventually with icon at 1,000 800 or 400........ sometimes being right on top of the enemy and only 200 of their high 5 or lw 7 and the icon was not even showing at times.....
3K max for friendlys and say 2K icon for enemys would be 1 million times better...... my PERSONAL thoughts.....
but the last couple of frames with these lowered icon settings have been some of the worse FSo's I have ever participated in
I hope the FSO CM Staff think hard about this, and hopefully decide to adjust the icons back to what they have always been...... let each event, each different Arena, etc. have it's on uniqueness and stop messing with good things...... hate to see more people driven away from what they were once happy with ( <--- another personal "experienced" view )
Thanks for all the work these FSO CM Staff and the CiC's do for putting on this event...... :salute
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I could see Icons below 500 ft, I swear, in both frames. I had to be within 1k of the enemy but I could still see the icon below 500ft. <shrug>
It does strain my eyes to fly without them though. Probably couldn't stand 2 hrs without a very bad headache without them.
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Didn't realize dot dar was on in the tower dar either. That was a bit of a surprise.
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I chose to fly Lancs lastnight because I didnt want to deal with the icon HS.
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I think after the second week of these settings I can draw these conclusions based on what I have seen and experienced while playing:
1) While there may be other bandits nearby, everyone seems to focus on the ones close enough to show an icon... creating 3, 4, and 5 on one scenarios... when normally there would be more 1 v 1 and 2 v 1 combat going on. All you have to do to escape is get far enough away from your opponent so he loses your icon, and he will switch to another target.
2) The level of detail some have mentioned that allows you to ID a con without an icon at ranges of 2 and 3 K is only available using "zoom"... which is not realistic either. So we are trading an automatic non realistic feature that allows us to ID aircraft, for a manual feature which allows us to ID aircraft.
3) My personal survivability has increased in this FSO... I rarely land when flying fighters during a frame... but have easily been able to break off when low on fuel or ammo and make it back to base with no trouble the last 2 frames. However, I have noticed others in my squad that usually DO make it back have gone down quickly. So I cant say that survivability as a whole has been effected by the current icon settings or not based on what I have seen.
While I have enjoyed frames 1 & 2... it seems the level of excitement, duration, and the intensity of combat has just not been there as much as they usually are in FSO.
Unfortunately I will be away for frame 3, so I wont get to finish out the FSO for this month. Good luck to everyone in Frame 3, and I will see you all for August's FSO! :salute
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I worried more about kill shooter this last frame than ever before,, when I found an enemy con, everyone flew in on my tail instead of the cons, to get an idea were the bad con was!
this seems to me to be the worst part of differing Icons!
I did have a better time of it in frame two, but it was still mostly just trying to figure out who was who,, the only way to tell if there was a bad guy near you was if the ack on the field was firing!
I survived this frame simply by doing what the enemy did last frame, as soon as a bad guy got on my six, a hard break back into him and strait to the deck cleared me every time, he could not see me and therefor did not wish to try and pursue risking his own hide to my friendlies!I in turn lost sight of him and was hard pressed to re acquire the target!
It was fun, the few seconds of action,, but the rest of the time, was as nerve racking as grind teeth!
for me it was not a fun time had by all!
Just my perspective on the matter,, hope this helps the next FSO planners
i will be out next week not because of Icons tho gotta go play poker
No Limit Hold'Em Tournament
$20,000 Guaranteed
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I want to know what I have to do to see these planes and identfy them at 1.5K or 2K or 3K out without icons..... and my eyesight is last tested 20/15 right eye 20/20 left eye a year ago....... a dang pixel dot on a PC is not the same as real life........ so why do people claim that it is MORE REALISTIC without icons, seriously......
the game is unrealistic in this comparison to real life when I can sit a mile away fromt he airport and tell what is taking off and landing, or see different military planes flying 10,000 feet to 20,000 ft above me and can easily identify what they are....
Tell ya what, I'll concede that no icons isn't necessarily more realistic, but glowing red icons isn't realistic either.
Some things about no icons are realistic in that you can lose sight of a plane in the clouds and you can lose sight of a low bandit that blends into the terrain below.
What would be more realistic?
Maybe dim transparent icons that blend into ground clutter and totally disappear behind clouds?
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Tell ya what, I'll concede that no icons isn't necessarily more realistic, but glowing red icons isn't realistic either.
Some things about no icons are realistic in that you can lose sight of a plane in the clouds and you can lose sight of a low bandit that blends into the terrain below.
What would be more realistic?
Maybe dim transparent icons that blend into ground clutter and totally disappear behind clouds?
you are correct, neither are realistic.. the reason the Icons are in the game is to supply the AH Player with some type of Aircraft Recognition in game, since it is not easy to visualize what one might easily see/recognize in real life vs what they see on a computer screen a a pixel
oh, and I have already conceded to flying the AvsA as it is now, and have not really argued about it for a good while..... just wish when I had time to fly and might want to fly in there, that someone would be in there...... but it has always been that way, except for those "set" times that have always been set up before amongst that arenas partcipants since the CT/AvsA inception.....
but my main concern was why am I not able to VISUALLY identify those 4K, 3K, 2K dots on my PC ( unless ZOOMING in at the maybe 2.5K dot only at times ) but others claim they can.... I want to know the secret or the tip needed to identfy those UFO dots that far out. or do I need a 42" monitor or what?....... hell, if others can do it, I want to be able to do it too..... everyone should be able to do it, if everyone can not, then I see no reason to punish the ones who are unable to IDENTFY pixel Dots that a few others are able to identify..
is one reason I hated night time.... people would figure out they could turn their Gamma way up and it would still be like daylight.... man, I really racked up like 10 kills in a M3 carrying troops back then on planes trying to shoot me....... only if they knew I could see them clear as day and they could not see me as clearly..... btw..... only did that one time when I was told how everyone was able to shoot planes down or incoming GV's.....
if Night Time does come back, I would wish that HTC would put some type of "Gamma Adjustment Block" in the arena settings to disallow game players to game the game....... :D
:salute jimson
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TC, I've learned to look for little visual cues in the short/no icon settings, practicing offline helps. I don't think I have as good a computer as you have, but I have a 22inch monitor and 20/15-20/10 vision with glasses. Since the arguments about visual acuity in AH started popping up in the no icon discussions, I've done a lot of "self testing" and some testing of people I come into contact with daily of various ages. Using a car to verify distances from objects, it's amazing what some people can't actually see from a mile out. Obviously sitting on the ground is not the same as being 5000 feet in the air but you can get a general idea of what can actually be seen as distance increases. At 1/4 mile (1320 feet) on level ground few people can read the license plate on a car.
In AH I use the zoom function (about 3/4 default setting) because the effect is close to what we do when trying to focus our vision on an object that is far away. Somewhere near the 3.5k+ range, enemy aircraft tend to be darker colored dots than friendlies. Between 3k and 2k the default skins kick in, but you still can't tell exactly what it is unless it's a bomber and even then it's not easy. Around 1.5k and closer whatever skin the player chose in the hangar kicks in. No matter what you do you're still going to find yourself chasing friendlies at times, and you're going to miss seeing someone flying low, but learning what to look for in the non-realistic graphics of the game can help. Doing a lot of experimenting offline can help.
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I hear alot of people spouting that these short icons encourage communication and team work well. My radio chatter had I bothered to communicate last friday after 30 seconds of engagement woulda sounded like where the hell is every one I can hear you but god forbid I find oh wait a second I got 3 dots buzzing me 2 109's and a spit 9 from a squad I didn't know was here umm alright 45 more seconds ok I am hearing alot of random communication about how 109s are high alot of them and stuff I am assuming your low. Well in reality when I was finnally towered cause I had to dive but couldn't use my planes strength of turning because I was so busy zooming into dots to identify wether it was friendly and safe to turn to that I eventually just died because one I couldn't reliably find my teamates and cooridinate I couldn't identify enemies their heading their speed or anything in a timely manner in a game where death is decided sometimes in fractions of a second especially at 1k icons -.- So basically I found that this environment spurned confusion dissarray and an empty feeling as though you had your candy taken on halloween under the guise of realism -.-
[I am fine with a little tinkering I do not mind daddogs attempt to search out possibilities for a more enjoyable time. This is simply my humble opinion that I would like for the icons to revert back to the 3k old standard of fso.] {I however do find that the radar tower vectoring for the dead guys is an innovative and nice touch that should be kept}
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Long thread.
Well, after trying this out the last 3 frames, I have decided I can live with it. Once I see those dots, I put my head on a swivel and try to keep my situational awareness as much as I can. Check the range channel for friendlies and what not, trying to keep my squaddies in view. None of that is really different from previous FSO's except the intensity goes up as you know you're gonna make contact real soon and you don't know who or what with. I feel like things really speed up when you're in the thick of it. I also like the radar.
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Just as an FYI for everyone I just checked the surviving % and it was at 39%. A bit lower than the average FSO which was disappointing. Could be the shorter icons made it more difficult to survive having the opposite affect I wanted. Who knows.
Thanks for the feed back, at least those that were polite about it. :cool:
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Just as an FYI for everyone I just checked the surviving % and it was at 39%. A bit lower than the average FSO which was disappointing. Could be the shorter icons made it more difficult to survive having the opposite affect I wanted. Who knows.
Thanks for the feed back, at least those that were polite about it. :cool:
funny thing about it for us was, some of the playmates left icons all the way off for enemy as a result of last minute training and forgetting to turn them back on during the last frame!
the result for me was more pleasurable than short icons! I don't have a clue why???
I would guess that less info made it easier to process and track, as well as watching the size of the icons instead of waiting to see the icon for a range check!
in the end it was probably a good experience to try but i would rather have them the same for both sides!