Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: redman555 on July 15, 2010, 12:06:21 AM
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Well, was thinking about getting a Pistol, I have a shotgun which I have tons of experience with but not so much with pistols. I was thinking about getting the Beretta 92fs that way I have two Italian made guns :) (my shotguns a Benelli) Does anyone have any experience with the Beretta 92fs? If so how is the gun?
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee239/bigbobCH/Beretta_92_FS.gif)
There is a picture of it.
Italian power :)
-BigBOBCH
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Redman, I guess you have a thing for Italian made weapons. :D
What really matters is how do you like the feeling of the pistol. I've personally shot several variants of the 92. It's very smooth and fits well in my hand. With that said, why are you choosing a 9mm? Is this for target/practice shooting or are you planning for something along the lines of personal protection later on?
Not sure if you have acess to an indoor shooting range. Look around where you live. See if they have a place that you can take a Beretta out for a test drive so to speak. While your there, try other models and other firearms. I prefer Sig Sauer pistols. Try out as many as you can.
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Yeah there are a few indoor and out door firing ranges in my area, I wanted it as more of a gun I can take out and shoot for fun. I used to do trap/skeet a lot but every year I have less and less time to go. Also preferably was looking at the 9x19 because of the ammo price is a bit cheaper. I originally was thinking about a .44 Mag, but quite a bit more expensive then the Beretta and the ammo itself is more. And yeah I like Italian guns :) My entire family is from Italy so just my taste in guns.
-BigBOBCH
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Yeah there are a few indoor and out door firing ranges in my area, I wanted it as more of a gun I can take out and shoot for fun. I used to do trap/skeet a lot but every year I have less and less time to go. Also preferably was looking at the 9x19 because of the ammo price is a bit cheaper. I originally was thinking about a .44 Mag, but quite a bit more expensive then the Beretta and the ammo itself is more. And yeah I like Italian guns :) My entire family is from Italy so just my taste in guns.
-BigBOBCH
Italian Power(/Pride)! :rock
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Just looking at that 92fs or are you considering others?
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Personally, I love the 92fs but you've got to shoot and potentially carry what ever you decide on. The most important thing IMO is to take your time on a pistol ( or any other purchase ) and find what's right for you. See if you can rent or borrow as many fire arms as possible as you have the time and fire each of them. Consider what you'll be using it for, target, home defense, CCW? Find something that will work for you. Affordability is a big issue as well - it's no fun buying a firearm you can't afford to shoot and train with - 9mm is around $0.20 (Wallyworld Federal Ammo) every time you pull the trigger where .45acp is around $0.60 in other words, you can shoot 150 rounds of 9mm for the same price as 50 .45acp.
There are many great firearms available Beretta, Springfield, Sig, Glock, to name a few - try some out, see what you like and what fits the budget.
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1911 :aok
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My wife bought me a S&W .500 Magnum for fathers day. Its too big and only carries five. Guessing by the way Lindsay Lohan uses it in Machete (and the fact she licks hers) makes me think she was carrying a AirSoft model because there is no way that little girl could handle this thing.
Beretta is a fine auto. Are you planning on carrying? I think revolvers make more sense for concealment but opinions on that go in all directions.
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Just looking at that 92fs or are you considering others?
Well at the moment ive been looking at he Beretta, any other ones you suggest?
-BigBOBCH
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I have a beretta but chambered in .40. Much better round than the 9mm but ammo is a bit more expensive. The 9mm and .40 guns are almost identical, which is why I got it - I can shoot my .40 and it helps me keep in practice to shoot the USAF 9mm. The guns are *identical* except for the bits that actually touch the ammunition.
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The 92fs is a really nice, well made gun.
Have you handled it yet, just to be comfortable with the size, since it's a full frame pistol? If you plan on carrying it concealed at all, that may influence your decision.
Are you looking for all steel/metal, or part polymer? There's so many options for quality firearms.
For caliber, I'm comfortable with the 9mm as a CCW. I use 124gr 9mm+P Gold Dots in a S&W 5906, so it's cheap to practice with regular 9mm rounds and a magazine of +P rounds.
mir
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"you pull the trigger"
No you don't, unless you want to miss the target - you squeeze it.
:cool:
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I think revolvers make more sense for concealment but opinions on that go in all directions.
Agreed but generally speaking, autos are considered easier to conceal because they are thinner than revolvers of a similar or same caliber, however, revolvers do have a better functional reliability in actual combat (or hunting) situations. I have both and carry both but prefer the autos for ease of concealment and reload speed and carry revolvers openly for SASS and hunting.
Redman,
What you acquire for a weapon depends on what you are planning on using it for (target vs defense/hunting). If you want a defence/hunting weapon, then a bigger bore (9mm and up) would be the first thing to consider then how will it be used (carried vs kept in the nightstand vs hunting) to determine whether you should get an auto or a revolver. If you are planning on just paper target shooting, then a .22 would be a good, economical choice considering the price of ammo these days IMO.
In any event, try several types of guns at your local range to see what fits your hand, your purpose, and your shooting abilities the best.
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The Beretta is heavy, bulky, the grip is large, and they are generally not real accurate. When I was working for a dealer, we had a ton of complaints about them, and I often had to test fire the guns that were returned for problems. We test fired them and sent the target back with the gun. Many were fixed, but they did have to go back. While they don't have too many ejection jams, they are not nearly so good about failure to feed jams. The thing is really over rated, mostly because of the Lethal Weapon movies and the military contract.
There are much better guns on the market. The Sig Sauer P series, the Springfield XD series, the 1911 pattern (when produced by a good manufacturer), among others.
If you have not owned a hand gun before, start out with a 4" or 6" 357 revolver. A GP 100, an 686, a Trooper, or something similar.
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Well, was thinking about getting a Pistol, I have a shotgun which I have tons of experience with but not so much with pistols. I was thinking about getting the Beretta 92fs that way I have two Italian made guns :) (my shotguns a Benelli) Does anyone have any experience with the Beretta 92fs? If so how is the gun?
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee239/bigbobCH/Beretta_92_FS.gif)
There is a picture of it.
Italian power :)
-BigBOBCH
AS others said, what do you want it for?
The problem with the 9mm is that it's a light, fast bullet. It might not stop its target (not an issue for target shooting). That's one reason for the .40 cal. A .40, .45 or a magnum might be a better defensive round because it will stop what it hits. If you want cheap, it's hard to beat a .22.
But, its your choice. Try to find a range where you can rent one. If you like the feel, go for it.
The most comfortable gun I ever fired was a Luger. My 1911 Kimber is a real close second.
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My Kimber 1911 is my favorite too, but ammo costs are starting to bite my training regimen.
Beretta 92s are solid, tried and true. I have a 90-two myself, which is a little bit of an upgrade. It's got better grips, sights, lines, tac rail, and it holds 17+1. There's not as much out there in the way of mags or replacement grips though, but it'll use the same holsters.
The best thing is to find something that fits your hand well. It's like a shoe. It doesn't matter what it looks like or what the box says it'll do, if it doesn't fit you'll be sorry. Go to a gunshop and try a few on for size. If you have a place to rent pistols and try them don't pass it up.
Springfield XDs are excellent weapons. They're inexpensive, high quality, accurate and they have a really good company behind them. You can't go wrong with Springfield Armory (I've actually been there).
Glocks are very popular, but they're not my thing. I don't like how they fit in my hand. If they're comfortable for you this might be a good selection.
Sig Sauer are excellent pistols. I have three. I actually have a 226 in .40 and a 220 in .45 that I'm selling right now, NIB, 10th Mountain special edition. They're simple, reliable and accurate. Very hard to beat Sig.
There are a lot of really great 1911's out there. 1911's are just a different animal from other pistols and people tend to love them, with few exceptions flying to the opposite opinion. They do take some practice though. In the long run, if you want a target pistol that'll be good for stopping zombies, think about getting a nice .45 with a .22 conversion kit. These save on ammo cost as well as providing important training in fundamentals. I personally love my Kimber. It's my favorite to fire and it's my carry. It' actually conceals better than my Sig 229. There will be a 100th B-day party for the 1911 at my house within the next year for anyone who wants to come.
A Beretta would be an first pistol, but there are also some other good candidates. Try as many as you can, on the range if possible. Over time, you'll find your favorites. Gunbroker is your friend.
Send us pics when you get something!
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(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9358/myhardwaresg5.gif)
My (partial) gun collection from top to bottom:
Remington 572 .22 bolt action (have had it 40 years)
Thompson Center Hawken .50 Cal (killed a few deer with this)
Enfield .303 (made in 1924 according to the stamping, won't fire it...barrel has micro-fractures in it)
Yugo M48 Mauser (mint condition, Hasn't been fired since production, was still packed in cosmoline from the factory when I bought it)
Polish Made Mosin Nagant M1944 (Hadn't been fired since production until I got it, was still packed in cosmoline from the factory when I bought it, has been fired less than 200 times since purchase)
Winchester 1894 (Pre 63 model) 30-30 (Dad and I have killed lots of deer with this)
Kimber Custom Combat .45 (low serial number, bought nearly as soon as the line was released)
Uberti Saddleman .45 Colt Clone
I have several other guns that are cap and ball revolvers but aren't shown.
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AS others said, what do you want it for?
The problem with the 9mm is that it's a light, fast bullet. It might not stop its target (not an issue for target shooting). That's one reason for the .40 cal. A .40, .45 or a magnum might be a better defensive round because it will stop what it hits. If you want cheap, it's hard to beat a .22.
But, its your choice. Try to find a range where you can rent one. If you like the feel, go for it.
The most comfortable gun I ever fired was a Luger. My 1911 Kimber is a real close second.
Truthfully, I have a shotgun under my bed for home def and sport, this is more for target shooting. Lol
-BigBOBCH
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There really isn't anything in this thread I can disagree with. A .22 is definitely the most affordable option for target shooting, I have a Walther P22 myself. However, I can't blame you one bit for wanting a larger caliber for shooting. It wasn't long after I got my first pistol, the P22, that I decided I wanted something with a little more recoil. I chose the Glock 19 (Compact 9mm). I like the Glock and the 19 fits my hand well, definitely hold it before you make any commitments. I had a Bersa Thunder .45 for a while; it was a little cheaper but a pretty decent gun. My latest purchase is a Kahr PM40, it's a subcompact gun I got specifically for concealed carry.
I don't have any experience shooting the 92FS, although I would like to own one some day, they are a beautiful looking gun.
Glock 19/17
Sig Sauer P series
Springfield XD series (they've grown on me since I first saw them)
Ruger SR9
Are a couple possibilities I can think of.
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I thought he was getting a pistol. 9MM, BAH those pea-shooters couldn't stop a goat.
My personal fav and 1 I carry is my Desert Eagle .50 cal. In the line of work I did I needed some protection, so I picked up 1 for a good price and I haven't looked back.
The only drawback is it holds 7+1 and rpunds are a tad bit expensive. The upside to having this firearm is 1shot 2 halves.. They may go bang bang at me but when I respond its BOOM BOOM.. Just my 2 cents worth.
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Truthfully, I have a shotgun under my bed for home def and sport, this is more for target shooting. Lol
-BigBOBCH
Then you certainly do not want a Beretta 92FS.
A good revolver will be far more inherently accurate. You mentioned a 44 Magnum, oddly enough, the 44 Magnum is an inherently accurate cartridge, and some of the better 44 Magnum revolvers are extremely accurate. The 357 Magnum is accurate, but not on the same level as the 44 Magnum.
If you really want an automatic, then get a 1911 pattern in 45ACP, from one of the better manufacturers. The aftermarket is flooded with all sorts of things to make the 1911 more accurate and more fun.
My Dan Wesson 44 Magnum is the most accurate handgun I've owned, it rivals some of the single shot hand guns. My Para-Ordnance P-14 45 is also very accurate, a Navy Seal hunting buddy was stunned at how well it shot, and a week later I shot a 250/250 for my qualification test, the instructor was somewhat surprised at how well the "old single action dinosaur" put rounds in the ten ring with so little effort on my part.
It doesn't matter how good a deal you get, how cheap the ammunition is, or how "cool" the gun is, if it isn't really accurate, and a good shooter, it won't be nearly as much fun.
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I thought he was getting a pistol. 9MM, BAH those pea-shooters couldn't stop a goat.
My personal fav and 1 I carry is my Desert Eagle .50 cal. In the line of work I did I needed some protection, so I picked up 1 for a good price and I haven't looked back.
The only drawback is it holds 7+1 and rpunds are a tad bit expensive. The upside to having this firearm is 1shot 2 halves.. They may go bang bang at me but when I respond its BOOM BOOM.. Just my 2 cents worth.
I'm curious -- what line of work required a .50?
I've owned my DE .50 for at least 6 years now, and it's the most impractical firearm I own. I really can't think of any practical use for it! I still can't get myself to sell it though. :lol
mir
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I'm curious -- what line of work required a .50?
:rofl I was going to ask too, shooting something big, slow, and close?
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:aok
Somebody mentioned the S&W 686 several posts back. I shot a 686 with a 6" barrel and it was one of the best feeling handguns I've shot, shooting both .38 Special and .357 Magnum rounds.
Also, speaking of .44 Magnum, you can use .44 Special rounds for practice as well.
Then you certainly do not want a Beretta 92FS.
A good revolver will be far more inherently accurate. You mentioned a 44 Magnum, oddly enough, the 44 Magnum is an inherently accurate cartridge, and some of the better 44 Magnum revolvers are extremely accurate. The 357 Magnum is accurate, but not on the same level as the 44 Magnum.
If you really want an automatic, then get a 1911 pattern in 45ACP, from one of the better manufacturers. The aftermarket is flooded with all sorts of things to make the 1911 more accurate and more fun.
My Dan Wesson 44 Magnum is the most accurate handgun I've owned, it rivals some of the single shot hand guns. My Para-Ordnance P-14 45 is also very accurate, a Navy Seal hunting buddy was stunned at how well it shot, and a week later I shot a 250/250 for my qualification test, the instructor was somewhat surprised at how well the "old single action dinosaur" put rounds in the ten ring with so little effort on my part.
It doesn't matter how good a deal you get, how cheap the ammunition is, or how "cool" the gun is, if it isn't really accurate, and a good shooter, it won't be nearly as much fun.
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FYI I was doing automobile reaquistions for Ford Motor Credit. Just the sight of the grip sticking out of my holster was imtimidation enough to keep people at bay.
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FYI I was doing automobile reaquistions for Ford Motor Credit. Just the sight of the grip sticking out of my holster was imtimidation enough to keep people at bay.
:O Wow. Wouldn't be my choice for a defensive weapon but it's definitively scary.
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C'mon, you used the 6+ pounds of gun as some type of club! :lol
I kid...I kid.
It does look intimidating, but it's such a beast.
FYI I was doing automobile reaquistions for Ford Motor Credit. Just the sight of the grip sticking out of my holster was imtimidation enough to keep people at bay.
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I am with CVH. I did this process a year ago, and he gave me the same advice with going with a revolver. I tried them and shot some very well, but ended up with a Sig P228 NIB. The reason why I say listen to his advice is because revolvers are easier to shoot, maintain, and nearly never have a problem.
The Sig P228 (M11 is the military name) is the other lesser known Military Contract Side Arm for our arm forces. I believe mostly Navy pilots, NCIS, and other military law people get this weapon because of its easy of conceal carry. It is the same size as the Sig P229 but mine has a rolled Carbon slide instead of a stainless steal slide. Making it a little lighter. Let me tell you the balance of the gun is nothing I have felt before. It fit my hand perfect and it is a blast to shoot. That is the reason why I picked up this pistol. Just something about it in my hand felt so perfect.
I do have a Glock 26 (CCW) that I also shoot very well. Glocks are very easy to maintain and I have yet to have a problem with it. Whatever you do when you buy your first handgun dont skimp on price. Buy what you feel comfortable with, that you will enjoy, that you can hit the target with accurancy, and you can have fun with.
Remember when you go to the range to shoot targets its about having fun.
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I like my HK USP 45.
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I'm curious -- what line of work required a .50?
I've owned my DE .50 for at least 6 years now, and it's the most impractical firearm I own. I really can't think of any practical use for it! I still can't get myself to sell it though. :lol
mir
Makes a fairly decent hammer in a pinch. :)
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hunting with a handgun? hunting what exactly? :huh
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Personal preference here but if I only had to buy one gun for fun target shooting, I'd get a semi-automatic versus a revolver. I'd prefer have 10-17 rounds to shoot at a time rather than 5-6. Revolvers have a more proven reputation for reliability, but 1) not as major a issue for target shooting and 2) a quality semi-auto is still going to be very very reliable. The biggest drawback is cleaning and maintenance but IMO, it's worth it.
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hunting with a handgun? hunting what exactly? :huh
I hunt bear, hog, and deer. Among other animals.
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with a handgun?
edit: what do bear taste like?
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hunting with a handgun? hunting what exactly? :huh
Wild hogs, deer, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handgun_hunting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handgun_hunting)
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with a handgun?
edit: what do bear taste like?
Yes, with a hand gun. My usual favorite is my Dan Wesson 44 Magnum, with my custom handloads. I also use my 45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk that I bought for my father, again with my own handloads.
Bear is somewhat greasy, with gristle, and has a gamey taste. It's not bad, if cooked by someone who knows how.
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Wild hogs, deer, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handgun_hunting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handgun_hunting)
interesting, seems a bit more sporting than a rifle with a scope. esp vs a big boar. got to make that shot count :D
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interesting, seems a bit more sporting than a rifle with a scope. esp vs a big boar. got to make that shot count :D
Yup, Russian pigs can be a bit testy when they get pinged and don't die right away. :rofl
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Yup, Russian pigs can be a bit testy when they get pinged and don't die right away. :rofl
I'm going to guess most creatures are going to be a little upset when they get shot. ;)
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meh.
bow and arrow.
with thermite arrow tip.
:devil
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interesting, seems a bit more sporting than a rifle with a scope. esp vs a big boar. got to make that shot count :D
You rarely shoot over 100 yards, mostly less than 50 yards. A big heavy bullet at medium speeds does a really good job on boar and bear.
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Yup, Russian pigs can be a bit testy when they get pinged and don't die right away. :rofl
:rofl Yup, same goes for your NA wild hog. Only things I've killed with a handgun was a bear and a boar, both after rifle shots from others did nothing but piss them off. Both stepped over the line to pests and threats at a scout camp/ranch and both were mighty big, stubborn and angry beasts. We (the staff) cooked up the hog that year, but the bear went to/with the local forest ranger on staff so I unfortunatley haven't had a chance to eat bear yet.
And I agree with Virgil, you usually run into the shot oportunity with boar and bear at medium to close ranges in thick brush or underforest. My preffered round of choice for boar is .40-70 buffalo rifle.
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I'm going to guess most creatures are going to be a little upset when they get shot. ;)
True...but Russian pigs come after you even if you miss sometimes. And I hunt those with a 50 cal muzzleloader most of the time...so having a handgun as backup is a necessity...especially since I can't reload my Hawken in 3 seconds. And I have had to use the pistol on occasion. 45 LC up close and personal does the trick on em..at least long enough to re-cock and fire again. Cowboy action shooting experience has been beneficial for me for sure. :rofl
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First, you need to find a pistol that fits your hand. Yes, some will fit better than others. Between the Sig, Berette, Glock, 1911 (multiple brands make the 1911), S&W, Taurus, and Ruger brands, find you or 2 that you like and do some research on that pistol. My personal favorite is the Sig 226 family of pistols. I carry one while on patrol, in 9mm. It fits me like a glove, is highly reliable, simple to use and maintain, and damned accurate. There has yet to be another deputy that can put more rounds on the paper as fast and as accurate as I that shoots of .40SW. Most of them are shooting the Glock 22 (.40SW).
If you are new to handguns, I highly suggest the 9mm Luger for a caliber. Why? With the low recoil you're less apt to develop bad habits. Trust me. I've taught many people how to shoot and the larger calibers (.40SW, 357Sig, 45ACP, etc) produce more recoil than anything else. With the modern day performance ammunition available, the differences between the wound channels in minimal, if any. Accuracy is key and is the most paramount item. No sense if using a sledgehammer to drive a stake into the ground if you cant hit the stake. A 5lb hammer will do just fine. I carry a Sig 226 in 9mm while on patrol. There has yet to be another deputy that can put more rounds on the paper as fast and as accurate as I can that shoots of .40SW. Most of them are shooting the Glock 22 (.40SW).
You can buy a police trade in Beretta, Sig, or Glock for a very reasonable price. Do a search.
One last thing: there is no "best". Only what works best for you. Dont listen to the crowd that says "X gun suxors". There are reputable brands and not so reputable brands. The brands I mentioned above are the most common and all are reputable. The following, IMO, are not so reputable and I advise to stay away from the Lorcin, Phoenix Arms, and other such cheap $50 handguns. They truly are made cheap.
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True...but Russian pigs come after you even if you miss sometimes. And I hunt those with a 50 cal muzzleloader most of the time...so having a handgun as backup is a necessity...especially since I can't reload my Hawken in 3 seconds. And I have had to use the pistol on occasion. 45 LC up close and personal does the trick on em..at least long enough to re-cock and fire again. Cowboy action shooting experience has been beneficial for me for sure. :rofl
Russian? I'm surprised you don't have a Baikal in that lineup :D (I have a Baikal 243 which is an awesome lil rifle).
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The advice on going to the local range and test firing as many different ones as possible is true. SOME (read into that SOME) gun dealers will give you a full refund if you go to the range winin a few days--fire it some, can't stand the handgun and want to return it. Ask about their specific rules. The ones here in Central Arkansas are pretty honest with so many hunters and folks wanting home defence...but may not always give that option with fresh from the factory models.
After a lot of looking around, I decided on the .45 cal "Witness". It's and Italian design but made in Florida. It's a very nice piece. I cannot stand the triggers on Glocks but others swear by it. Guns, like food, are totally based on personal taste.
The Walther was a choice on my list and I considered a few 9mm's...but decided on the 45. I figured that if someone breaks into my home--gets past the two german Shephards, they deserve the prize of going out in a hail of 45 cal fire.
ROX
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Russian? I'm surprised you don't have a Baikal in that lineup :D (I have a Baikal 243 which is an awesome lil rifle).
Honestly, I really enjoy hunting with primitive weapons. Something about pouring powder, and loading a Powerbelt and making that shot just feels good. During deer season, I'm not allowed to carry a modern side arm while hunting during muzzleloader season so I carry an 1860 Colt .44 Ball and Cap if I need a quick, short range follow up shot. Better to finish off a wounded deer with a ball and cap pistol than waste a lot of powder (and a Powerbelt bullet) producing an excessively destructive shot at 15-20 ft.
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Don't like Berettas let alone 9mm. My advice go .45 cal 1911 or Sig.I prefer 1911's myself. 7 shots of good ole' 45.acp is plenty
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This ol' cat preferred his S&W .357 Magnum to any automatic - but you pays yo' money 'n' makes yo' choice. Happy shooting.
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You rarely shoot over 100 yards, mostly less than 50 yards. A big heavy bullet at medium speeds does a really good job on boar and bear.
QFT
I hunt deer with a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44mag (scoped) When you hit them its like the finger of god.
Shot a 9 point white tail 2 years ago with it. Dressed @ 220 He went right down,not a twitch. He was 25yards away.
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i would advise getting anything in .45 acp
although, as much as i love the 1911, i would prefer this:
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=103270 (http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=103270)
because it holds 12 rounds instead of 7, and five more rounds of .45 acp is always comforting
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If you want a 1911, but you want high capacity 45ACP, what you want is a Para Ordnance P-14 45. True pure 1911, the only variance from the John Moses Browning design is a wider grip frame. Mine is even based on the original Series 70, there's not even a magazine disconnect. Out of the box smooth, clean, crisp trigger, no creep, no overtravel. The two MecGar magazines work fine, so for $20 each I have two more high capacity magazines. The only drawback is that it does not like extremely cheap lower power ammunition, especially when it burns dirty. It does not like cheap white box crap.
For the average person, with proper hearing and eye protection, recoil from a 45 ACP is not even remotely an issue. My wife is smaller than petite. She prefers my 1911 pattern P-14 45 in 45 ACP to any smaller round she has shot. She prefers her 44 Special to a 38 special or 357 Magnum. And she is not a hard core shooter in the least. She likes guns, more as a tool, not quite as much as a hobby for fun. That's probably because she is so small, and most of my weapons are large and powerful. I only have a couple of rifles that are not magnums, and they're still fairly large and heavy, the only thing I have that is light is a 50 caliber Knight muzzle loader, and it kicks hard with the magnum level loads I keep for it. My shotgun is too big for her too. Being over a foot taller than her and a 100 pounds heavier makes it hard to have stuff of mine that she can shoot. Although she can tear stuff up with my 44 Magnum and my 1911. I'm betting she'll warm up to some lighter stuff I'm picking up just for her. But if she can shoot my 1911 well, anyone can.
Until you get into fairly hot loadings, or magnums, recoil is mostly between the ears, not between the hands. The majority of recoil issues for most shooters come mostly from poor eye and hearing protection, followed by poor gun handling. The truth is, unless you are shooting +P, +P+, or some of the defense rounds, the vast majority of factory ammunition is considerably downloaded from the SAAMI standard. There are some rounds that are just not friendly by their nature, their design makes them less pleasant. For the most part, they are the smaller rounds, mostly sub 40 caliber, and usually because they require a fast sharp pressure curve to generate power. That makes for a sharp recoil and excess muzzle blast. When you get to the 44 and 45 caliber cartridges, the recoil is slower and smoother, and the muzzle blast is deeper, and duller. The smaller stuff gives your hands a "smack" and your ears a sharp "bang", where the heaver stuff gives your hands a "shove" and your ears a "boom".
As to hunting deer, I switch to a 180 grain JHC bullet for deer, it clocks right at 1800 fps from my 6" Dan Wesson. It shoots flat, it hits hard, and it drops them quickly. Just don't hit them where there's meat you want to eat. Even at around 100 yards, it goes all the way through, and makes a huge hole.
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Isn't there a video around of that Para Ordinance shooting 1000 rounds in 10 minutes, just to show the reliability of it? I can't search from work, but I do remember watching a segment on a TV program (maybe 'Shooting USA') a few years ago where they put that gun to a torture test like that.
You described the recoil of the .45 very well, actually both .45 ACP and .45 LC. I think it's such a nice, smooth recoil, and makes the follow up shots easier for most people compared to a light-framed 9mm or .40.
My 9mm and 10mm are both stainless S&W's, a 5906 and 1006 respectively, so they have a good amount of weight to them and the recoil on each is firm, but not snappy. It's easy to do doubletaps within a few inches of each other when shooting either pistol, and I attribute it to the weight, especially on the hot 10mm loads. My good friend has a Delta Elite, so a 1911 frame, and I think the little bit of weight difference makes it less controllable for me in 10mm. It's also gives a little bit more 'kick', but not 'snap' like the .40's.
A Ruger Blackhawk was mentioned earlier, and I absolutely love shooting the Ruger single action revolvers. My main experiences are with a Single Six .22 Magnum and a Vaquero in .45 LC (which is just soooo smooth -- squeeze the trigger, hear a "pud", and see the hole in the paper).
mir
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Glock. You will be happy with what you get.
Pros:
1. Less $$$
2. Extremely Reliable
3. Very Accurate
4. Easy to maintain
5. Easy to use
6. Huge selection of accessories
7. Parts very readily available
Cons:
1. Can't think of any off the top of my head...
T
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Cons:
1. Can't think of any off the top of my head...
T
(http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/2435/glock21kb1sh.jpg)
(http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/busted_Glock30.jpg)
(http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/glock_kaboom_photo.jpg)
(http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/busted_glock-barrel.jpg)
(http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/PicG-g22boom.jpg)
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Not a Glock fan myself.
Speaking of sigs, a 229 would probably be a better pick than a 92FS in the long run. I love my 229, and the 228 described would be awesome too.
I also have a Para 1911 with the 14 round mags. They shoot very well. It's my bedside gun, with the tac light I have on it. It's a little more weight and bulk in the handle than I want to carry, though.
In the long run a 1911 may serve you better, but some people are just more into the other automatics. I'd recommend the Springfield XD over the Glocks in the boxy, striker fired catagory. Still, think Sig.
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A couple pictures of Glock failures doesn't prove anything. :rolleyes:
I like my Glock but fully understand someone who wouldn't like the look, weight, feel, safety or trigger of the gun. But arguing reliability, come on.
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(http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/2435/glock21kb1sh.jpg)
(http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/busted_Glock30.jpg)
(http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/glock_kaboom_photo.jpg)
(http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/busted_glock-barrel.jpg)
(http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/PicG-g22boom.jpg)
Hot loads or accidentially double charged a reload. I see that happen occasionally. ( i help a friend out that owns an indoor gunrange / gunstore, I usually work the gun store, but am on the range occasionally.) Guns "usually" dont have catastrophic loss like that due to poor manufacturing
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Not a fan of the Glock either. I'll take a Sig or Kimber any day.
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If you want a .40S&W get a Sig P229 SCT, if you want a .45ACP get a Sig P220 ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES! If you want a 9mm keep giving your boyfriend HJ's till you have the wrist strength to shoot a .45 :joystick: :neener: Just joking with you but if you want something to defend yourself the 9mm is no good. Target shooting maybe but the .40 would be better just in case you know.
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Hot loads or accidentially double charged a reload. I see that happen occasionally. ( i help a friend out that owns an indoor gunrange / gunstore, I usually work the gun store, but am on the range occasionally.) Guns "usually" dont have catastrophic loss like that due to poor manufacturing
I PACKED powder into a .45ACP load and shot it through my P220 guess what no boom and it still hits the bullseye every time.
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Just joking with you but if you want something to defend yourself the 9mm is no good. Target shooting maybe but the .40 would be better just in case you know.
That's a pretty ridiculous statement...
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That's a pretty ridiculous statement...
Well I hope when you wake up from a deep sleep your ready to shoot for an IDPA match cuz that bullet does not have the mass to knock someone on there ass
This isn't me but it gave me a chuckle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m3nUM5DLhg&playnext_from=TL&videos=KW4BDQ4FmWY
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I PACKED powder into a .45ACP load and shot it through my P220 guess what no boom and it still hits the bullseye every time.
Sig 220 is a metal gun not polymer.
I only speak from seeing it multiple times on the range where i work occasionally. Had a nice young fella get a ride to the hospital just a month ago with a part of his finger missing, and bits of Glock in his face from a double charged round. Thank god for safety glasses, or we would have been calling him winkie for the rest of his life. It shattered the lens of his glasses ( oh FYI Browning shooting glasses really do work well )
You may get lucky doing that (packing in the powder)but eventually its gonna bite u in the backside,or destroy your guns internal workings,bbl,slide rails,springs etc.
Just curious how many grains of powder do you consider packed? What kind of powder? Some are hotter than others? (dont take this as confrontational, im just curious )
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Well I hope when you wake up from a deep sleep your ready to shoot for an IDPA match cuz that bullet does not have the mass to knock someone on there ass
This isn't me but it gave me a chuckle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m3nUM5DLhg&playnext_from=TL&videos=KW4BDQ4FmWY
Hows does performing in an IDPA match have anything to do with the stopping ability? Or as you put it "mass to knock someone on there ass"...(spelling error included).
Are you expecting a person to fly backwards after being shot like in the movies?
For you to get a clue, scroll down to section 3 and read the FBI results on penetation depth and expansion:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm (http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm)
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/40s&w.htm (http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/40s&w.htm)
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm (http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm)
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Not a fan of the Glock either. I'll take a Sig or Kimber any day.
I have no issues with the Glocks, But my primary CCWs are Sigs (229)and Kimbers (Pro Carry CDP) Fantastic guns!!
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Well I hope when you wake up from a deep sleep your ready to shoot for an IDPA match cuz that bullet does not have the mass to knock someone on there ass
This isn't me but it gave me a chuckle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m3nUM5DLhg&playnext_from=TL&videos=KW4BDQ4FmWY
I don't mind testing that out on you, maybe you're right, you'll get back up with no problem; except a hole in your head...
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Hows does performing in an IDPA match have anything to do with the stopping ability? Or as you put it "mass to knock someone on there ass"...(spelling error included).
Are you expecting a person to fly backwards after being shot like in the movies?
For you to get a clue, scroll down to section 3 and read the FBI results on penetation depth and expansion:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm (http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm)
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/40s&w.htm (http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/40s&w.htm)
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm (http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm)
What spelling error? spell check doesn't say anything (But it does show your misspelling) and no not flying back, bullet weight it's the difference between getting hit with a baseball or a baseball bat. "Performing" in an IDPA match has nothing to do with stopping power, It has to do with shot placement.
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There
Their
and
They're
BTW, I'd rather hit him with a baseball than miss with a bat.
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What spelling error? spell check doesn't say anything (But it does show your misspelling) and no not flying back, bullet weight it's the difference between getting hit with a baseball or a baseball bat. "Performing" in an IDPA match has nothing to do with stopping power, It has to do with shot placement.
Did you even look at the links I provided which showed the tables regarding penetation and expansion?
Have you looked further to compare the kinetic energy of a 9mm round vs a .40 round?
Have you done any research on your own, or are you recycling things you heard while in a gun shop?
Well I hope when you wake up from a deep sleep your ready to shoot for an IDPA match cuz that bullet does not have the mass to knock someone on there ass
and then "Performing" in an IDPA match has nothing to do with stopping power, It has to do with shot placement.
You're contradicting yourself.
I'll be back this afternoon if you want to continue this debate. I'm actually going to the range for a few hours now ;)
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Everyone of the below pics of damaged Glocks were caused by ammunition failures. Double charged reloads and reloading brass with bulges are very common causes of those failures. All firearms are vulnerable to those failures. Glocks are not unique in not being able to maintain integrity during catastrophic ammunition failures.
Terror
(http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/2435/glock21kb1sh.jpg)
(http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/busted_Glock30.jpg)
(http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/glock_kaboom_photo.jpg)
(http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/busted_glock-barrel.jpg)
(http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/PicG-g22boom.jpg)
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I PACKED powder into a .45ACP load and shot it through my P220 guess what no boom and it still hits the bullseye every time.
Be careful "packing" powder into any cartridge. Please follow the reloading tables for the cartridge... Any thing other than that is just asking for trouble. Don't care what pistol you are using....just plain dangerous...
(http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd215/PX4KB/?action-view¤t=DSC00286.jpg)
http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd215/PX4KB/?action=view¤t=DSC00286.jpg (http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd215/PX4KB/?action=view¤t=DSC00286.jpg)
Terror
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I like my HK USP 45.
+1
The HK45 Compact is fun to shoot too.
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+1
The HK45 Compact is fun to shoot too.
QFT, always reliable and a real tack driver
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QFT, always reliable and a real tack driver
Agreed. Both the full size and compact were always a pleasure to shoot.
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Had a ruger 45
Got a glock 45 nice gun other than the feel of the trigger , feels like rubber.
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"Be careful "packing" powder into any cartridge. Please follow the reloading tables for the cartridge... Any thing other than that is just asking for trouble. Don't care what pistol you are using....just plain dangerous..."
Yup - KABOOM.
And if you're a shooter of a black-powder revolver, make sure all surplus powder is cleaned from the cylinder before you play at being Outlaw Josey Wales, or chain-fire may really spoil your day.
:cool:
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(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sti-eagle-50.jpg)
My baby <3
I'll never shoot another double stack 9mm other than this ever again.
If only it didn't cost $2000, I'd recommend it to anyone.
If you've got the cash, get it and never look back.
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Today was a good day. :aok
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/Jayhawk1/2010-07-2315-33-09434.jpg)
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I get a kick out of the "that suxors, get a XYZ" crowd, and that goes for brand and calibers both. Truly, they are the ones that hang out in the guns stores and pawn shops too long and take the "former Navy SEAL" at the gun show to heart.
Fellas... the debate between the 9mm, .357 Sig, .40SW, and ,45ACP will be eternal. Your best bet is to RESEARCH the topic and learn the truth. The following statements are fact and I just happen believe that truth will win the day.
First, accuracy is the most important factor. If you cant hit what you're aiming for then the entire arguement if moot. I've had loud mouthed deputies shoot their mouth off about my Sig 226/9mm being a wussy gun, but they have a hard time qualifying while I shoot %100 my first time out.
Second, with modern day performance ammunition (HP's, SP's, etc), the wound channels caused by any of the 4 afor mentioned calibers is far and above what is needed to incapacitate a bad guy, and they are far too similar acorss the spectrum to discount any one caliber. Keep in mind that the military uses FMJ's (non perfomance ammunition) and thus the bullet speed, weight, and design are the sole factors in determining their individual wound channel characteristics and that is an entirely different discussion. Military vs civilain uses are 2 very different things.
Thirdly, no brand of gun regardless of caliber can make up for the amount of training and expertise a person can have. By that I mean I will take a veteran from the NYPD SWAT, or other similar unit to be at my side armed with a 6 shot .38 Special SW Mod 10 revolver vs some wet behind the ears LEO or other such loudmouth who thinks his Glock 22 and his uber .40SW caliber is the best thing since sliced bread.
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To understand the 9MM, the 40 S&W, and all of that, a good source of information is the various well researched articles and papers on the legendary "Miami Shootout", a modern gunfight researched as much or more as the "Gun Fight at the OK Corral".
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm)
http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html (http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html)
http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86b.html (http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86b.html)
http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/shooting.htm (http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/shooting.htm)
That last link takes you to a page that has links to the pdf files of the FBI 60+ page report.
If you are seriously considering the purchase of a handgun for the purpose of self defense, all of the above is good reading.
Remember, however, that it is not a representation of the type of incident a civilian is likely to be involved in.
I personally do not own a 9MM, or a 40 S&W, nor will I. The only reason I own a 38 Special is that it was my Dad's duty weapon at one time, and was passed on to me. It is a keepsake, regardless of it being a premium quality firearm, it is still a 38 Special, and I recognize that. Even my wife carries a 44 Special, not a 38 Special, nor a 9MM. Her eventual goal is a Sig P220 in 45 ACP.
A weapon is not magic, nor is a cartridge. However, a barely adequate weapon or cartridge will immediately become less than adequate when a gun fight starts. It will be better than no weapon at all, by a substantial margin.
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Weather and locale also could be considered in the choice of a firearm for self defense.
Here in the hotter than hell desert southwest, you will seldom need a round to penetrate multiple layers of heavy clothing.
I feel comfortable with my Browning Hi-Power 9mm.
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Second, with modern day performance ammunition (HP's, SP's, etc), the wound channels caused by any of the 4 afor mentioned calibers is far and above what is needed to incapacitate a bad guy, and they are far too similar acorss the spectrum to discount any one caliber. Keep in mind that the military uses FMJ's (non perfomance ammunition) and thus the bullet speed, weight, and design are the sole factors in determining their individual wound channel characteristics and that is an entirely different discussion. Military vs civilain uses are 2 very different things.
Thirdly, no brand of gun regardless of caliber can make up for the amount of training and expertise a person can have.
Those are 2 good points, highlighted by a story from Iraqi Freedom... A guy on convoy duty got ambushed and to make a long story short, he ended up being the only guy able to fight, trapped near and in his humvee surrounded by a couple dozen bad guys. He hopped into the gun turret and put the .30 on anyone within the gun's traverse angle, but nearly a dozen bad guys were able to get close enough that he couldn't get the .30 on them. So he had to use his 9mm... Here is the freaky part. Even with the bad guys not wearing any armor, he had to shoot some of them point-blank several times before they quit coming at him. 3-4 rounds hitting each target was what it took. So the point about modern ammo is extremely valid, because the USAF is only allowed to use weak FMJ ball ammo in the commonly issued 9mm, and it has rather poor stopping power as this NCO discovered. If he'd had an old-school .45 or even the same beretta in .40, and assuming he was equally proficient shooting it as he proved himself to be with the 9mm, I don't think it would have taken nearly as many hits per target to put them down.
The other point about training is equally valid... This one NCO singlehandedly took out around 2 dozen Iraqis who were charging his humvee, maybe a third of them with that crappy 9mm.
I wish I could find the writeup of that battle... Freaky good story about one guy who decided he wasn't going to die that day. He also saved a bunch of his own folks who had been shot up.
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Just for informational purposes, the ammo rules are from Declaration III of the Hague Convention of 1899.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp
and a broader link about the Convetions of 1899 and 1907 (Wikipedia, so trust as you will):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_(1899_and_1907)
In regards to the scenario you repeated, did they determined if the bad guys were on some type of drugs?
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The biggest factor for me is cost of ammunition. I can put almost two times as many rounds through a 9mm than a higher caliber, and my accuracy shows that. Once I become rich ( :lol ) then I can afford to become just as good with a .45 as a 9mm.
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Just for informational purposes, the ammo rules are from Declaration III of the Hague Convention of 1899.
(snip)
In regards to the scenario you repeated, did they determined if the bad guys were on some type of drugs?
Not drugged up, just highly motivated since their homeland was being invaded.
It is just that the 9mm ball ammo we're issued is pretty weak. If you don't hit the head, spine, heart, or maybe the pelvis/hip, the bad guy has plenty of time to keep trying to kill you before he bleeds out. It just doesn't have immediate stopping power if the shot doesn't hit a vital spot.
I am well versed on the ammo rules, having had many hours of law of armed conflict training during my career... Anything short of .50 cal is legal for general anti-personnel use as long as it is FMJ. So get as close to .50 cal as practical, and make the bullet travel as fast as possible, duh :( USAF 9mm ball isn't very big and it sure doesn't go very fast. I can get FMJ ball for my beretta .40 (absolutely identical weapon to the issue 9mm except for barrel diameter and feed geometry) that has about double the energy as the military 9mm rounds, it isn't any harder to shoot, doesn't weigh any more, etc etc. Because the weapons are essentially identical in function and dimensions, NATO could swap to the .40 overnight with no impact on training. The impact would be purely logistical, no different than the swap from .38 to 9mm back in the early/mid '90s. Or possibly even less of an impact since things like holsters would still be interchangable between the 9mm and .40 versions.
Still, at least special forces are allowed to choose weapons and ammo that are actually effective. I'm glad that special weapons applications are authorized in the ammo rules even though they generally won't apply to me.
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The biggest factor for me is cost of ammunition. I can put almost two times as many rounds through a 9mm than a higher caliber, and my accuracy shows that. Once I become rich ( :lol ) then I can afford to become just as good with a .45 as a 9mm.
I use a .22 for basic marksmanship practice... I also shoot my .40 to "warm up" for the 9mm qualification course I have to take. The 9mm is so mild compared to even the cheapo .40 ammo I use for practice that the military qual is usually super easy.
I have to qual again soon so it is time to get out to the shooting range again. I haven't shot in years so it is past time to get in some time at the range.
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I use a .22 for basic marksmanship practice... I also shoot my .40 to "warm up" for the 9mm qualification course I have to take. The 9mm is so mild compared to even the cheapo .40 ammo I use for practice that the military qual is usually super easy.
I have to qual again soon so it is time to get out to the shooting range again. I haven't shot in years so it is past time to get in some time at the range.
I also have a .22LR that I use for marksmanship practice, handling practice, and just plinking. I do have a sub-compact .40 that I've been carrying more here in the summer vs. a compact 9mm glock. It's growing on me, and is perfect for CC, but that 9mm is just so much more enjoyable to shoot.
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I don't think I would ever shoot a "compact" .40 for fun... My wrists couldn't take the abuse. I would eventually like to get a compact .40 for concealed carry, but I haven't even taken the course yet so there isn't any point in buying one yet.
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I'm having a hard time visualizing "excessive recoil" from a 40 Short & Weak in even the most compact version I've seen. :confused:
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I'm having a hard time visualizing "excessive recoil" from a 40 Short & Weak in even the most compact version I've seen. :confused:
It is so hard to imagine that some people have joint injuries, smaller hands, or thinner cartilage at various joints such as the wrist?
Imagine how irritating it would be if I went around talking about how I have a hard time visualizing anyone needing eyeglasses, since my vision is 20/10 uncorrected. Or how I have a hard time visualizing people getting airsick since I do not. Or how I have a hard time visualizing people being unable to swim a mile in 20 minutes or swim up the SoCal coastline from LaJolla Cove to LaJolla Shores and back in under 2 hours. Or have a hard time visualizing people who cannot avoid getting speeding tickets. Or how I have a hard time visualizing people who can't fit into pants with greater than 32" waist. Or... :confused:
The CHP did a study and determined that it would be cheaper to pay off CHP officers for wrist injuries than to switch to a different gun. The S&W .40s they issue are known to cause wrist injuries. I fired my Dad's service pistol and it twists badly in my hand, and it isn't even considered a "compact" pistol. I am quite certain that if I had to fire that gun routinely as part of my job, I'd end up with a permanent injury from it. That's why when I bought my own .40 pistol, I went with the full size beretta. Not only does training with it directly benefit my mandatory USAF weapons training, but also because it recoils straight and the extra weight of the gun makes it a lot less damaging to my wrist.
Then again, the most painful gun I ever fired was a teeny tiny .30 subcompact auto... That thing felt like someone whacking my hand and wrist with a tip of a screwdriver, since the gun's size and shape meant that the recoil was transmitted directly to one of the nerve junctions in the wrist. It wasn't a very strong recoil, but it was sharp and directly impacted that nerve junction. Hurt like hell.
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I have arthritis, and other damage to my wrists, from sports and work related injuries. My wife has fairly small hands (she's not even 5' tall). I can understand people with serious permanent injuries having a problem with recoil from mid power rounds like the 40 S&W, but those are people who are permanently disabled, for the most part. My brother has had wrist surgery about 5 times due to work related injuries as a career line mechanic (I was a line mechanic for years, it's where some of my wrist problems came from as well), he's a champion Single Action Shooting Society competitor.
Talk about whatever you want, it doesn't irritate me. :rolleyes:
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You mean people have different personal preferences when it comes to firearms!? :O
My sub-compact .40 is a Kahr PM40
(http://billstclair.com/blog/kahr-pm40.jpg)
(not my picture)
I doesn't hurt my wrist as much as tire my hand out, especially after 100+ rounds.
Reminds me of the video I watched last night of Todd Jarrett putting 1000 rounds through a Para .45. Yikes!
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Bottom line there are lots of good quality dependable guns out there. You just need to find the one that fits you.
Weight
Grip/feel
Caliber
Rounds
See if you have a gunshop close to you that has its' own range. Many will let you test fire a sample pistol you may be interested in.
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Or we just visit Shuffler's! :x
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John Browning developed the 45ACP for one reason, and one reason only: to kill people by the U.S. Government Standards of his time.
Debate all you wish about calibers, and weapons manufacturers, and target shooting and all of the refinements you find within each separate subject regarding handguns...simply remember that the 45ACP was developed specifically to kill people.
For those who worry about recoil...limp wrists and elbows will discourage you from firing any handgun because the recoil should be taken in your shoulders; if you are not taking it there...you need some professional instruction.
Any caliber from .17 to .50 will kill you if the round is placed properly; not many arise from an improperly placed 45ACP and wish to debate the issue further.
But! No handgun is any good if the wielder is unable to make it function under stress! Think about it...do you really want to kill someone; or do you just make empty threats by showing off a handgun? This is a huge responsibility and you accept it when you wield a handgun, or any firearm, come good, or bad and if you make the wrong decision...you may end up dead, or worse, behind bars for the rest of your life.
My vote is: .45 ACP
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Well, was thinking about getting a Pistol, I have a shotgun which I have tons of experience with but not so much with pistols. I was thinking about getting the Beretta 92fs that way I have two Italian made guns :) (my shotguns a Benelli) Does anyone have any experience with the Beretta 92fs? If so how is the gun?
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee239/bigbobCH/Beretta_92_FS.gif)
There is a picture of it.
Italian power :)
-BigBOBCH
Beretta is crap. Get lots of training on pistols, lots.
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One word of advice - don't bring your pistol(s) to the UK.
This ol' cat used to thoroughly enjoy making his own ammunition on a Thursday evening (store-bought ammo's good for sourcing cartridge cases but too variable for accurate shooting) and sending a few dozen down the range on weekends - but it's a sad fact that civilian handguns have been banned in Blighty since just after a legally-licensed shooter went ape in the Scottish town of Dunblane and shot a classroom of children and their teacher. Shades of Columbine, but earlier and the loonie was an adult.
So the splendid past-time of responsible pistol shooting was banjaxed by knee-jerk legislation, enacted because a bone-idle senior police officer ignored several warnings, at least one in writing, from a junior officer who knew the nut-case and rightly believed him to be unstable and a threat to himself and others. Now the only people here to use handguns are police and punks.
My S&W .357 with the 6" barrel was a beautiful weapon. Sigh.
:mad:
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Beretta is crap. Get lots of training on pistols, lots.
Everyone has an opinion. Obviously. The Beretta 92F is hardly "crap". ;)
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Everyone has an opinion. Obviously. The Beretta 92F is hardly "crap". ;)
Maybe. But it also is not the great wonder weapon that the "Lethal Weapon" movies and the adoption by the U.S. military make it out to be. It is heavy for a 9MM, not particularly all that accurate, not really great ergonomically, and not outstandingly durable or reliable. It is fairly decent, but by no means is it innovative, exceptional, or outstanding.
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Maybe. But it also is not the great wonder weapon that the "Lethal Weapon" movies and the adoption by the U.S. military make it out to be. It is heavy for a 9MM, not particularly all that accurate, not really great ergonomically, and not outstandingly durable or reliable. It is fairly decent, but by no means is it innovative, exceptional, or outstanding.
And that's why our Military has it, its the Lowest Bidder for the mass produced weapon to outfit our services.
That's why SPECWAR wont use it either, its crap.
Once you get confident with a handgun, and you get good training with one, you wont go wrong with a SIG.
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IMO go with somthing of a .45 or higher 9mm no stoping power at all
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Here is mine..
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/skydiver22/SuperSoaker.jpg)
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Well it's been two weeks since your OP, did you buy one yet?
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Well it's been two weeks since your OP, did you buy one yet?
No, I went to Sportsman warehouse and took a look. I was looking at the Taurus Magnum but again, still thinking.
-BigBOBCH
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IMO go with somthing of a .45 or higher 9mm no stoping power at all
You Sir, are as wrong as can be. The 9mm Luger is quite enough to put a man down. With all things caliber related there are benefits and curses. If you read up on your wound channels the 9mm Luger has far more and away than needed to cause trauma enough to make a person bleed out rather quickly.
Some of the benefits to having a 9mm is its lighter weight (able to carry more ammo), less recoil (less fatigue), faster follow up shots (able to put more shots down range in an accurate manner). The down sides have to do with FMJ ammo, and even then that topic is still quite debatable.
Dont forget the benefit many forget about: a 9mm used typically has more ammo, that equates into having the ability fire more freely to keep the baddy pinned down while you either move for a better shot angle, or let your partner go for help or maneuver for a better shot. If you have 15+ in your mag you are able to use a few or so rounds for that purpose. If you have a 7 round mag (or 10rd mag, or 6 round cylinder, etc), you're less able and less apt to do such a thing.
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The 9MM has to have +P ammunition to achieve the standard desirable penetration of 12" minimum. It often has to sacrifice bullet expansion to achieve that 12" minimum. Given that it starts off with a 0.100" diameter deficit to the 45, giving up expansion is a very questionable decision, and is the reason most agencies at least step up to 40 S&W.
The sharper recoil of 9MM, especially when loaded to +P levels, is actually harder to deal with than the slower shove from the 45ACP, and far less fatiguing. At the range, it appears that most shooters seem to have more problems with the 9MM +P than even 45ACP in +P loadings, because of the sharper pressure curve that produces not only a snappier recoil, but also a louder and more objectionable muzzle blast.
Fifteen rounds of 9MM takes up nearly as much space as 13 rounds of 45ACP. And does not weigh a lot less. The 92 series Beretta double stack grip is in fact so large that it does not fit smaller hands nearly so well as a 1911 single stack grip frame, and does not fit them much better than a double stack 1911 45SCP grip frame. Even the military now admits that the 92 Beretta grip frame is not even close to ideal for a large number of military personnel.
The average "gun fight" for the police lasts just 7 rounds, for both parties. For civilians, that number is even smaller. For civilian concealed carry purposes, anything that carries 8 rounds of good ammunition is more than sufficient, as to date, I have not seen any case where a civilian shot even an 8 round gun dry and was killed or wounded because of it.
The truth is, the reason the military moved to the 9MM, and the Beretta 92FS, is to fall in line with the rest of NATO. None of the elite military units regularly issues or carries the 92FS, the ones that do use the 9MM use some version of the Sig Sauer line, and many of them actually use the 45ACP, many of them in the 1911 Colt pattern. The closest the military could come to a justifiable reason for the 9MM round in combat is that it "more reliably penetrated the standard military issue metal helmet", the problem with that theory was few could even hit that helmet reliably at an angle that allowed the 9MM round to penetrate the helmet on a regular basis, as neither the 9MM ammunition nor the 92FS are consistently that accurate. It came down to logistics more than anything for the choice of 9MM or 45ACP, and the choice of weapon was a matter of economics. The 92 Beretta is a side arm to the military, you have it either to fight your way to your rifle, or to fight your way to more ammunition when you run out of 5.56 NATO for your M-4 or M-16. The fact that the elite units also use the M-14 on a regular basis is another subject for another day.
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I've read this debate 100 times, we still haven't figured out an answer?
Penetration isn't the only issue when talking about a defensive handgun. A lot of this stuff, "snappier recoil" and "fatigue", size and weight, all are going to vary vastly with the specific gun choice. Weight, even a couple ounces, can make a big difference for someone who carries daily. A 1911 is a great gun, but some of us just can't conceal that size gun. Like I said before, the big issue for me is that I can afford to practice shooting the 9mm a lot more than a .45.
In the end I kind of look at it as if, "would you rather be hit by a toyota or a hummer?" They're both going to take you down. It's just personal preference, you have to weight the factors and decide what fits you best. It's better to carry a .380 than carry nothing at all.
I think a 9mm would be good for the OP because this is not a defensive gun in the first place, remember that? :P
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Penetration is a huge issue for personal defense. You absolutely must penetrate to either the central nervous system or the center of the circulatory system to reliably stop the fight as quickly as possible. FBI agents Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove were killed by a dead man walking, that Jerry Dove had inflicted a fatal wound on. They are not the only ones that has happened to.
Yeah, a 380 is better than nothing.
If you can't conceal a 1911, you can't conceal a full size 9MM, either, especially not a 92F series Beretta.
And 9MM is just not an inherently accurate round. If he's target shooting for accuracy, 9MM is not the round to buy.
If cost is a factor, buy a good solid 357 revolver, and shoot 38 Special through it.
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The point I was getting to about concealing a 1911 (I never got there, my bad) was that I have to carry a smaller sub-compact pistol. I'm going to be much more effective with a smaller caliber vs. a .45.
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I'm the guy who can pick up most any handgun and shoot %99 or better in qualifying. Matter of fact, from memory I can say that I've qualified with the SW Mod 10 in .38Spl; SW 686+ (7 shot) in .357 Mag; Glocks 17/9mm, 19/9mm, and 22/.40; Beretta 92FS/9mm; Sig 226 in both 9mm and .40, Sig 220/.45 ACP; and the Sig 232/.380ACP. I'm sure there are a few more. My point is simple: I'm not going to advocate a particular caliber for anyone is specifics because everyone is different to a degree. We had this tiny little gal who weighed 120lbs sokin wet, the firearms instructor put a Glock 23/.40SW in her hands and told her "that is what you need to buy!". Some time to take the course she was so intimidated buy the recoil and wrist whip she could barely hit the target. I took her 1 on 1 and put a few different 9mm's in her hand and she completely turned around her accuracy. The biggest thing for her was the ergonomics, so she said. She hated the Glock. She still carries a Sig 228/9mm almost 10 years later.
Each caliber and each gun has its ups and downs. I can nod and approve of most brands and calibers for any use. I will however, frown upon those who bite off more than they can chew as far as caliber, etc.
FWIW, I carried a Sig 226/9mm as my a duty gun and a Sig 232/.380ACP in my ankle holster as backup. I also carry that same Sig 232/.380 ACP for concealed carry. I do from time to time carry a 1911A1 (Rock Island Arsenal) during the winter months as those great big heavy winter coats can act like a ballistic vest to a certain degree AND I can still easily keep the 1911 bulk concealed. :D
Last thing.... someone made reference to the average number of shots made by both the bad guy and LEO as being 7 rounds... too bad that has steadily risen each year from 2.5 for LEO's and 4.2 in 1990. Also, the typical ranges are still 7 to 10 yards. The more urban the closer, the more rural the further. Out here on the prairie we have an AR15 close at hand for those "reach out" situations. The WY state troopers still have "leased" M14's in their trunks.
:salute
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Penetration is a huge issue for personal defense. You absolutely must penetrate to either the central nervous system or the center of the circulatory system to reliably stop the fight as quickly as possible. FBI agents Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove were killed by a dead man walking, that Jerry Dove had inflicted a fatal wound on. They are not the only ones that has happened to.
Yeah, a 380 is better than nothing.
If you can't conceal a 1911, you can't conceal a full size 9MM, either, especially not a 92F series Beretta.
And 9MM is just not an inherently accurate round. If he's target shooting for accuracy, 9MM is not the round to buy.
If cost is a factor, buy a good solid 357 revolver, and shoot 38 Special through it.
Without question one of the most accurate statements in this entire thread that has NO BIAS. The .357/.38 have the best penetration.
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And 9MM is just not an inherently accurate round
I agree with nearly everyting the quoted posters has said, but I take issue with this.
It's funny, you go on the PPC league tour, the guys shooting stock auto in this and a number of other leagues like IDPA will tell you in nearly every case that .40 is the inherently inaccurate round, and that it "flies badly". I don't shoot anything in .40 regularly enough to make that same judgement.
I have a dozen Sig P210's in my vault here. Every one has a test target. They are all around 3" or less groups, a couple are under 2", and they are using SECA (swiss) brand 9mm ammunition. I've shot winchester 115 white box, which we buy in the 1 million round lots through these pistols. Same results as the SECA ammo. These are shot at 50 meters. Not so inherently inaccurate.
My point is, while 9mm isn't the best round for Olympic shooting, for target shooting out to 25 yrds with a standard pistol, it'll more than suffice for the OP.
Also, for the OP, the most important thing is to find something that fits your hand well and you feel comfortable with. With proper defensive training, any pistol that is .38+p/9mm and up will serve you well as a target and defensive tool. You'll never master the grip, stance, sight picture, fire control, and follow through/breathing skills you need if your hand isn't fitted well to your pistol. IMO try a Glock19, Sig 228/229, or 9mm 1911 size pistol to begin with. I personally recommend a 1911 in 9mm, then go up to a .45 after you get some training and trigger time with the 9mm. If you are concerend about everything you've read about 9mm defensive capabilities, shoot me a PM, I'll send you a bunch of SIG's official stuff from the course binders, as well as point you in the direction of some 9mm ammo nobody here talks about, which will stop anyone when struck in the T-line or vertical track.
Best regards, good luck with your purchase. And remember, the WORST handgun in the world is 10x better than the next available defensive option.
Gman
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Personally, I'd say a Ruger .22 or a Browning Buck Mark in .22 would be a better way to go than ANY 9mm. It'll build a stronger foundation of skills and habits.
Onto another issue. I've only had Stovepipes with a Beretta, I'd never own one. I carried a .40S&W Cougar and refused to carry it after qualification. I went back to a S&W J-frame .38. Just because the Beretta is the Military sidearm doesn't mean anything except "Lowest Bidder". There's a reason the HK's are being introduced. "You get what you pay for". I own an HK, but would NOT hesitate to buy a Sig, Kimber or Glock. Ruger's have always had "good trigger action" to me.
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It'll build a stronger foundation of skills and habits.
Not necessarily true. They don't issue new police recruits who have never used a firearm with a .22 lr first do they?
I agree, a good .22 is a decent place to start with pistols, particularly for kids who shouldn't have the burden of using a pistol for defence, but the OP said he had lots of shotgun experience, and was interested in a 92F, so he likely isn't going to want a .22 instead.
Also, a Ruger or Buckmark .22 is a HORRIBLE pistol to learn holster work with. The safety system isn't designed for the pistol to be carried in a holster with a round in the chamber with only that dinky little safety which can easily be bumped off. Also, if the OP wants to learn proper defensive pistol fighting skills, a holster capable pistol is a must, not to mention one with a combat minded magazine and slide release. Doing emergency and tactical reload drills, much less FTF/stoppage drills with a Ruger .22 is..well..useless really.
I have a couple Ruger .22's, and they are a good to have around, particularly when mated up with suppressors, but IMO it shouldn't be your only pistol, or even your first.
As for the relaibility issues being discussed here, I'm a little hesitant to comment, as it'll look biased because of my work.....
On my range, we have over 5,000 rounds a day shot here. A lot of it is with new shooters using range "rental" guns. We have a wide variety of everything you've ever heard of, plus we are the national distributors for Kimber, Sig, and a number of other high and brands like DPMS and Sig 550 rifles. I've had a number of Sig 226's go over the 100,000 round mark with little issues, and some Kimber 1911's push the 70K mark. Glock, 20,000 rounds and they are in the garbage been, we have had dozens of castosrophic failures, mainly slide rail seperations, but others as well. HK USP's? The 5 we had on the wall are all gone, from massive failures, less than 30,000 rounds. Beretta 92F's? I've personally beat apart dozens that have had the locking lugs shear off and lock the pistol up tighter than Ft Knox.
Point being, ANY pistol you buy can, and eventually if you put enough rounds through WILL fail....the OPERATOR is the tool, focus on training and don't worry so much about what pistol you get, so long as it FITS YOU...few people, if ANY on this board will ever shoot as much as I do, or as much as the range rental guns I described above get put through them.
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I've got a Walther P22 that is a little more conventional pistol, if you can get used to the different mag release system Walther has. Ideally you would get a .22 conversion kit for the gun you own (if offered) for training.
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Walther's aren't bad, other than extremely high failure rates, and HORRID double action trigger pulls, but ya, Jayhawk, you are correct it does have the proper safety system and DA/SA for training for a .22 pistol anyhow. Reliability is a HUGE issue with Walthers however, every Walther P22 I've ever sold or had on the range has gone back to the distributor. Ask Montreal city police how much they like their Walther 9mm's, since they have a 100% failure rate ATM. (Same as the P22 almost, haha). Also, every Walther I've had on the wall has had the ejector/extractor little box assembly fly out or snap 1/2 off under 1000 rounds. 100% failure.
Sig and Kimber both make a .22 pistol (Sig P226 .22, not the Mosquito, which is GARBAGE). That's what I'd get if I HAD to have a .22 and could only have one pistol.
Otherwise, I agree with Jayhawk, consider a conversion kit, especially if you get a 1911.
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Agree 100% about the buckmark being a very poor weapon for carrying in a holster... Once you chamber a round, it is impossible to de-cock the weapon. There is no exposed hammer to cock/decock, and no decocking lever. There is only a safety, which of course you may or may not trust. The trigger is rather light as well (adjustable on some buckmark models) which again makes it a terrible gun to walk around with. Once you chamber a round, the only way to make it really "safe" again is to remove the magazine and cycle the action, or fire the round in the chamber. There is no dual-action either... If there is a round in the chamber, it is ready to fire, period.
If you can live with these realities, then the buckmark is a great inexpensive pistol. I got one when I was shooting standard pistol at the collegiate level, and in my relatively inexperienced hands it was just as accurate as the $1,800 pistol my instructor let me borrow for competition. Unless you fire thousands of rounds a week, I am confident that a buckmark will be "better than you"... In other words, getting a more accurate gun than a buckmark will not improve your actual accuracy unless you are really serious about shooting. That gun is far more accurate than most people will ever be, which makes it a great gun to teach marksmanship on the range.
If you want a .22 to carry around out in the field, get a revolver like the S&W K-22. That is another highly accurate pistol, but it is far safer to carry loaded in a holster than a buckmark.
I carried my buckmark around in the field for one day... After an hour of being paranoid about blowing a hole in my foot, I ended up clearing the gun and carrying it unloaded with the magazine in my pocket. I was never worried about carrying my Dad's K-22 loaded in the field.
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Not necessarily true. They don't issue new police recruits who have never used a firearm with a .22 lr first do they?
I agree, a good .22 is a decent place to start with pistols, particularly for kids who shouldn't have the burden of using a pistol for defence, but the OP said he had lots of shotgun experience, and was interested in a 92F, so he likely isn't going to want a .22 instead.
Also, a Ruger or Buckmark .22 is a HORRIBLE pistol to learn holster work with. The safety system isn't designed for the pistol to be carried in a holster with a round in the chamber with only that dinky little safety which can easily be bumped off. Also, if the OP wants to learn proper defensive pistol fighting skills, a holster capable pistol is a must, not to mention one with a combat minded magazine and slide release. Doing emergency and tactical reload drills, much less FTF/stoppage drills with a Ruger .22 is..well..useless really.
I have a couple Ruger .22's, and they are a good to have around, particularly when mated up with suppressors, but IMO it shouldn't be your only pistol, or even your first.
As for the relaibility issues being discussed here, I'm a little hesitant to comment, as it'll look biased because of my work.....
On my range, we have over 5,000 rounds a day shot here. A lot of it is with new shooters using range "rental" guns. We have a wide variety of everything you've ever heard of, plus we are the national distributors for Kimber, Sig, and a number of other high and brands like DPMS and Sig 550 rifles. I've had a number of Sig 226's go over the 100,000 round mark with little issues, and some Kimber 1911's push the 70K mark. Glock, 20,000 rounds and they are in the garbage been, we have had dozens of castosrophic failures, mainly slide rail seperations, but others as well. HK USP's? The 5 we had on the wall are all gone, from massive failures, less than 30,000 rounds. Beretta 92F's? I've personally beat apart dozens that have had the locking lugs shear off and lock the pistol up tighter than Ft Knox.
Point being, ANY pistol you buy can, and eventually if you put enough rounds through WILL fail....the OPERATOR is the tool, focus on training and don't worry so much about what pistol you get, so long as it FITS YOU...few people, if ANY on this board will ever shoot as much as I do, or as much as the range rental guns I described above get put through them.
Awesome. Too bad you're so full of it, it's not even funny. Thanks for the laugh though.
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Gman... you're shoving in a lot of opinions with out taking into account the differences between those personal opinion of yours and factual information.
Be a bit more careful when you're claiming what is reliable and what isnt. Bubba or the "ex Navy SEAL" are mostly full of watermelon and blow nothing but smoke.
Walther is among the most reputable, reliable, and respected firearms companies in the world.
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See Rule #4 (do not do that again, you know better)
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Everyone speaks to their own experiences. It sounds like his experiences with the P22 have been poor plus the P99 issue he mentioned (though I know nothing about this issue). My P22 has had a hiccup or two but is overall very reliable. I seriously considered buying a PPS when searching for a CC gun and may get on in the future. I disagree with his view but can't blame him for having it.
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Just a heads up, Ive seen a lot of comments about Sigs here, I myself own 4 ( P239 P228 P229 P225 ) and they are excellent guns. (that is an understatement )
One that i didnt see mentioned here is the P225 9mm. Its a great conceal carry gun, and a single stack mag, for those with smaller hands. Just a thought i wanted to share.
Of all my handguns ( sans my Wilson Combat 45 and my Kimber Pro Carry) they are by far my favorite.
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Gman... you're shoving in a lot of opinions with out taking into account the differences between those personal opinion of yours and factual information.
Be a bit more careful when you're claiming what is reliable and what isnt. Bubba or the "ex Navy SEAL" are mostly full of watermelon and blow nothing but smoke.
Walther is among the most reputable, reliable, and respected firearms companies in the world.
Uh..how so? My opinions ARE factual information, based on what I've seen on a daily and yearly basis with said pistols at MY places of employment, not what some moron wannabe has cracked off about or what I've read in some retarded magazine article by Massad Aboob or whoever.
www.theshootingedge.com
Six years of work at this range, 6 days a week, prior to going to work for a pivate military company. There is at least 100 shooters per day going through this facility, as shooting/owning a handgun in Canada isn't a right like it is in the USA, and the range is extremely busy in comparison to american places. Just from new rental shooters I've seen 5000+ rounds per day go downrage from every type of combat pistol you've every heard of. We are the largest importer of Winchester pistol ammo in the country, and the ONLY ammo going through our rental guns in 9, 40, and 45 is white box winchester, so the failures can't be blamed on overpressurized reloads. Some pistols on the rental rack get 1000+ put through them in a single day. For ANY polymer framed/steel slide pistol to be on the rack for 2 months in a row without a major failure is almost unheard of. Also, being a major repair center for the Beretta's in country, every 92F in the 2000's that had a slide crack failure, or more commenly the locking lugs shear off (at least 100+ pistols), including every 92F rental gun, I'm not terribly fond of them either, even being a non polymer pistol.
I respect and agree with what you've said Loon, and take you at your word, why not take me at mine? You've stated your experience before with pistol shooting, all I've done is the same.
I can gladly show you the RMA's to various manufacturers if you doubt my claims. As I did state, I'm hestitant to offer opinion on reliability because it always turns into this. As for Walther, why don't you do some research yourself. As I said, EVERY single range pistol we have fails at some point, and EVERY walther in 9mm has failed, in almost every case the extractor/ejector assembly which is a square little unit, and this is prior to the 1000 round mark in every case. Montreal City is the only Police or unit I know of that has these pistols in quantity. They'll be switching soon, go ahead and look up some stats or call their range master and see what he says if you don't take me at my word. Maybe you are talking about Walther rifles, as their pistols are complete garbage, and nearly everyone I know that has anything to do with shooting agrees. In fact, Monreal's order is the largest Walther has ever had for their P99 in North America. One city, and it's in Quebec. I think that speaks for itself.
AND, as I stated, it's the user, not the pistol that realy matters. I have nothing against any of the pistols I've talked about, and even the worst pistol in the world is better than the next best option.
As for Karaya's comments, I believe calling somebody names is cause for a suspension, is it not? I'll gladly throw down my credentials if you require it. The movie Shadow Company is currently playing often on various TV networks. A large portion of it is of my company doing CQB training for PSD employees of ours. I'm the big bald instructor. I'm a Range Master, Pistol instructor (Sigarms Academy), Rifle Instructor (Diemaco/Colt Canada), plus have trained a large number of people in the private security field during the last 6 years, in addition to working on a range instructing others for nearly my entire adult life.
Last thing I heard from you, you carry your HK pistol cocked and locked in your holster, so be careful who you call names when you live in a glass house.
Regards,
Gman
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More ego-laden drivel
I don't carry anything cocked and locked. You're a Sig Fanboi and Terror is the Glock Fanboi. I don't live in a glass house sonny.
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March 06 2010, "New handgun" thread.
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I like my HK because I can SAFELY carry it "cocked and locked".
So you do or you don't because that is what you posted.
Also, as I stated previously, we are issued Glock 19's at work with extemely effective ammunition, but other than that, I'm a 1911 shooter, and have been for 20 years. I'm not especially partial to Sig, I just happened to get most of my training and certifications from SigArms academy, mainly because I wanted to be trained by Bank Miller, who ran the FBI's weapons training for years before moving on to the Air Marshall program, than SigArms and action target. In fact, my OPINION is that the 226 has horrible ergonomics and grip angle for my size of hands, and I don't shoot them as well as nearly anything else, but again, that is MY opinion of how it works FOR ME, which is my constant point....
I'm no Sig Fanboi, get what fits YOU and works BEST for you, and don't worry about the reliability unless you plan on shooting 500 rounds per week.
I'll be coming to the next Dayton thing with my Kom Nowt squaddies, I'll be happy to go to the range with you on my dime and go over some things next year.
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One that i didnt see mentioned here is the P225 9mm. Its a great conceal carry gun, and a single stack mag, for those with smaller hands. Just a thought i wanted to share.
Strongly agree, these are excellent pistols, the Military Police, and some of our Fighter pilots carry these in Canada. The first Sig armourers course I took the rep from Sig brought these little P225's and everyone in the class was trying to talk him into leaving them, as they are very rare in Canada being less than 106mm barrels, which makes them a Prohib for importation here.
One pistol you see here in Canada which has many of the P225's virtues but is over 106mm and not widely seen in the USA is the SIG P220 in 9mm, which is a 9 round single stack pistol. Very similar to the P225, but with a bit more 1911ish grip angle, and it has the Sig P220 trigger, which for some reason is about 2x as narrow as the P225/228/226/229/etc triggers, and gives you more precise fire control (IMO). These can be found here with standard and heel release magazine catches, for around 600$ new. One of the better bangs for the $ out there. My shop was the Canadian distributor for Sig pistols through most of the 2000's and the P225 and P220 were the little known diamonds in the rough we sold hundreds of.
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Go to your local gun club and see if there is a few you can try out then if you like it buy it but only Buy 4-6 round's :lol
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Browning High-Power. Small frame compared to a beretta, and incredibly reliable. I have never had mine stovepipe or jam, but with that in mind if reliability is a big issue go with a revolver.
S&W model 681 medium frame, .357
Shoot .38 special for target purposes, load .357 for self defense purposes. 6 rounds is plenty for anything you will need, and the stopping power will blow a HUGE hole in anything.