Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rogwar on August 04, 2010, 06:23:03 PM
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https://www.usaa.com/inet/ent_utils/McStaticPages?key=advice_health_care_2010
Use this simple timeline to understand what the changes mean to you and when they're rolling out.
Very helpful...this is the best overview I have seen on how it will affect me in terms of health care. Saw it on another forum and since it's already done, just wanted to share the facts.
This is sharing info about health care and is not intended to start a political discussion.
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Good link, sending this to my (near retirement age) parents.
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Nice find Rogwar :aok
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Most businessmen I know will be culling the herd and putting a freeze on hiring.
People want healthcare..... but they don't want to pay for it. I have 5 employees who opted out of our health plan. To the man each said they could not afford their share of the payment. We pay our employees insurance 100% but they have to cover any additional family members they want covered. Also to the man when asked how much they would like to pay, they would not give a dollar amount. What that means is they want it free. The lowest paid of these employees still makes 45k a year.
Now everyone will have to pay for healthcare... want to or not. The only folks who truely benefit are the nonproductive members of our society. You can bet there will soon be many more of those.
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Well, that thread made it 4 posts. Thanks Rog, this is a good breakdown.
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Good post, if only people will control themselves.... I give it til the end of the day to be locked.
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I had to lol at the 10% tax on indoor tanning. Says it is the first of several new taxes.
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I give it til the end of the day to be locked.
maybe sooner
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I had to lol at the 10% tax on indoor tanning. Says it is the first of several new taxes.
If anyone wants to tax things that aren't essential for day to day life, who cares? If you want it bad enough, you'll pay for it.
I'm sure you'll argue 'slippery slope', but the money for all these medical entitlements has to come from somewhere.
(for the record, I'm neither for nor against the new changes. If done properly, it could help a lot of people but rarely is anything done correctly in a government bureaucracy, regardless of which party/political view is in control.)
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If anyone wants to tax things that aren't essential for day to day life, who cares? If you want it bad enough, you'll pay for it.
I know...this isn't the right topic, but I just wanted to reply with a point of view: Who decides what is essential for day to day life, and what to tax?
The argument could be that tanning is essential to John Smith's daily life because it does something positive for his emotional well being. He may have a disposition for some type of depression when he's pale, so he tans, and it makes him happy.
Yeah, it's a stretch, but I wouldn't be surprised if you see this type of argument going to the courts for any of the "sin taxes" that we're going to have.
Thanks for the link in the original post. :)
mir
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Most businessmen I know will be culling the herd and putting a freeze on hiring.
People want healthcare..... but they don't want to pay for it. I have 5 employees who opted out of our health plan. To the man each said they could not afford their share of the payment. We pay our employees insurance 100% but they have to cover any additional family members they want covered. Also to the man when asked how much they would like to pay, they would not give a dollar amount. What that means is they want it free. The lowest paid of these employees still makes 45k a year.
Now everyone will have to pay for healthcare... want to or not. The only folks who truely benefit are the nonproductive members of our society. You can bet there will soon be many more of those.
That's true of everything though. Schools, roads, military. It's so much easier if you just don't know what you're actually paying for.
I assume if those above employees who are opting out need health care they then become "The only folks who truely benefit are the nonproductive members of our society"?
Innnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn,
wrongway
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And here we go!
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I assume if those above employees who are opting out need health care they then become "The only folks who truely benefit are the nonproductive members of our society"?
wrongway
They pay their own bill.
The non-productive is just that... those that do not want to work. They live off of the sweat of others on their handouts.
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INcredible.
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Yep, this one is going to die on the vine as there is no way you can discuss this without bringing up politics. I'll give it another hour.
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At least most folks that visit the OT have read it by now or will have access to the link even if it does get locked. I posted such because it's the first thing I have seen that gives a simple break down for what is coming in terms of health care and how it will affect us in the USA.
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It will affect some not all it looks like as some states are moving to block it.
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Federal Government > State Government. Been that way since 1789.
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Is the discussing concept of Federalism violating the rule 14? :uhoh
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This thread has lasted longer than I expected by about 8 hours and like 10 mINutes
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See Rule #4
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Wont effect me. Keeping money for emergencies is better than pouring it into the hands of people preying upon your fears. If your not good with money you should have insurance of course but having cash will get you better service than any insurance plan.
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Good post, if only people will control themselves.... I give it til the end of the day to be locked.
I'd be surprised if it isnt even with people controlling themselves. Cause there really is only 1 direction this thread can end up going
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Wont effect me. Keeping money for emergencies is better than pouring it into the hands of people preying upon your fears. If your not good with money you should have insurance of course but having cash will get you better service than any insurance plan.
If you have a heart attack right now you can easily afford the probably more than $50k out of pocket? That also means you also have enough cash on hand to cover yourself when you're out of work awaiting short term disability... oh wait, that's right, you don't have any insurance of any kind.
Unless you're in your early 20s, you are taking a huge risk in regards to your financial well being. I hope no one has to support you because you made some bad choices.
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THAT being said.
A Change for Business Owners Employers of 50 or more workers who don't offer insurance risk paying a penalty tax of $2,000 per full-time employee, excluding the first 30 employees.
Still looks like it may be cheaper to not offer insurance and pay the penalty. Unless someone knows where to get health insurance for less then 2K per year per employee
You will also see businesses working around this by breaking themselves up into smaller businesses.
Say you have a company making and selling widgets that currently employs 120 workers.
They will simply break themselves into 3 smaller companies. Say, manufacture, shipping, and sales. So long as each company employs less then 50 employees. They avoid the penalty
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They will simply break themselves into 3 smaller companies. Say, manufacture, shipping, and sales. So long as each company employs less then 50 employees. They avoid the penalty
They do this now to avoid the higher taxes. :devil
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Wont effect me. Keeping money for emergencies is better than pouring it into the hands of people preying upon your fears. If your not good with money you should have insurance of course but having cash will get you better service than any insurance plan.
Delirium is right. Unless your a millionaire and sometimes even if you are. There are all sorts of things that can drain your bank account real fast
examples
One of the newly approved prostate cancer drug Provenge, is expected to cost $93,000 per patient.
Here is an article writen by a cancer patient about the costs involved and a breakdown (Almost $30,000 a month)
"The annual cost of my cancer care is more than $300,000"
http://www.assertivepatient.com/2007/02/the_high_cost_o.html
The cost of treating the complications of diabetes averages $10,000 per patient per year
http://diabetes.webmd.com/news/20070410/diabetes-complications-cost-billions
A look at 1990 hospital discharge data from Santa Clara County in northern California reveals how inpatient costs drive up the total bill for cardiac care. While the average length of stay for all discharge categories was 4.6 days, patients with heart-related diagnoses were in the hospital an average of 5.5 days. The overall average dally charge was $1,804 per day, versus $2,833 per day for cardiac patients. Finally, heart patients' average cost per stay was $16,722
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0903/is_n12_v13/ai_17779001/
Kidney transplant
""The cost of kidney dialysis averages about $44,000 per year per patient, using 1993 figures. The average cost for the transplant patients in our study, including the transplant surgery and medical care for the first year following surgery was $89,939. After the first year, costs for the transplant patients averaged $16,043; mostly for medications to prevent rejection."
http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/kidcost.htm
I could go on and point out that some treatments can very quickly run into teh hundreds of thousands of dollars per patient after all is said and done.
Im not a fan of the new health care. But to assume that by being "good with your money" and you will be able to pay cash for any ailment that might befall you is naive if not outright moronic.
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See Rule #4
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Delirium is right. Unless your a millionaire and sometimes even if you are. There are all sorts of things that can drain your bank account real fast
I know I am, I deal with this every day for a living. For example, I know of someone that had no health insurance but had money (and I'm talking big money) and thought he had health insurance.
He had a heart attack and was in the hospital for almost 2 days before surgery. He came out of surgery with a bypass on 3 vessels with good results but unfortunately had a stroke under anesthesia. As he was recovering from the stroke, he developed a staph infection and they had to hold him even longer as his leg (where they got the bypass material from) needed to be reopened. Since he was in the hospital so long, he developed a clot in his good leg (even with the blood thinners he was on) and had to stay a few more days.
He was only 48 and went through a tremendous amount of money in the almost 4 weeks he was in the hospital. No prior history of cardiac problems, no prior history of strokes, and no health insurance (he didn't pay the premium).
If your state can mandate you have to carry car insurance, I don't see why they can't mandate you to carry health insurance. Your health issues can affect the populace, not by crashing but by forcing the rest of us to pay for your health issues.
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Delirium is right. Unless your a millionaire and sometimes even if you are. There are all sorts of things that can drain your bank account real fast
Like I said...
The current plan (live as of 2016) is to tax you $2250 for every year you do not have insurance. Buying the insurance is going to cost you a minimum (that year) of $6000 ($500/mo) and it will probably be more with a deductible of $1200-2250 and better plans will cost more and have a higher deductible. The longer you go without a problem the more money you spend. A heart attack could run $60000 true enough but probably more like $250000 in total plus lost earnings (if your working). So thats a minimum of ten years without a claim for the minimum a heart attack would cost.
My family has zero history of heart or cancer or other major issues (not even any diabetes). Probably if I have a problem it would be something like gall bladder or knee surgery which is much more affordable ($12000-30000). Health insurance companies also limit their life time pay out to $2000000-3000000 which means about the time you start to have heart problems the less likely you are to have insurance to cover the problem through to its final conclusion. Then there is the death tax which is another lovely piece of legislation.
Now... instead of that you should enter into your own savings plan from year one. If you were able to save that same $6000 over the course of twenty years you would have $180000 plus interest. Realistically no one does that but they should. In fact they should save 10% of their gross earnings over the course of forty years plus the money they would spend on health care (or matching funds until you get to that point which is smarter).
Its not the costs that you see them as reported by insurance companies though. You see there has been inflated costs in the system for decades. You can save a ton of money by contracting with doctors ahead of time... oh but wait this new health care law makes that a crime... guess USAA didnt put that in there.
Fortunately I have the money to pay for what ever comes up and better yet... this law wont float. Missouri struck it down and OK and AZ and FL will be next... and with my blessing!
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Probably if I have a problem it would be something like gall bladder or knee surgery which is much more affordable
I'm glad you could not only diagnose yourself, but you can also see into the future.
I hope you have enough money, I sure as heck don't want to support you when you get sick.
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Nice try at being clever but you missed the point completely. I have never been dependent upon charity so save your regrets for the source of the real problem.
EDIT: Besides... your 'charitable contributions' dont go to real problems or didnt you know that? :D
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Percentages say you will be dependent on handouts in the future when you fail to plan.
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The point is I planned so I dont have to have an insurance that will fail me just when I need it most. If you are not in the same position I suggest you buy into the insurance plan that makes the most sense for you. Point two is I dont want an insurance company telling me which doctor I can see or be treated by. I didnt work as hard as I have just to have someone (anyone) tell me what I have to do. That includes a health care reform.
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I would love to say SO MUCH about this...*cough cough* thing...., but unfortunately I don't want to get banned by the Skuzzinator :)
-BigBOBCH
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Its easy to do. I think I have been banned on every newspaper site on the internet. :devil
FOS on the internet only extends to the point at which you hit the enter key unless you own the site (or if the site owner agrees with the writer).
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The point is I planned so I dont have to have an insurance that will fail me just when I need it most. If you are not in the same position I suggest you buy into the insurance plan that makes the most sense for you. Point two is I dont want an insurance company telling me which doctor I can see or be treated by. I didnt work as hard as I have just to have someone (anyone) tell me what I have to do. That includes a health care reform.
Or you are looking for a reason to complain? If you read the print there is nothing in there telling you you cannot see a certain doctor. Also if you read the link in which this thread is discussing, you will see that the Health Care Bill is putting a stop to certain practices by insurance companies to get out of paying for health costs.
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...Now everyone will have to pay for healthcare... want to or not. The only folks who truely benefit are the nonproductive members of our society. You can bet there will soon be many more of those.
My parents will definitely benefit from these changes, this makes my parents nonproductive members of society? I didn't know not being able to afford something made you a nonproductive member of society.
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Or you are looking for a reason to complain? If you read the print there is nothing in there telling you you cannot see a certain doctor. Also if you read the link in which this thread is discussing, you will see that the Health Care Bill is putting a stop to certain practices by insurance companies to get out of paying for health costs.
The bill itself is reason to complain. No one has a right to tell me I have to buy anything. There is a name for that.
Lets say I stop working altogether. Okay so I have a few million in the bank. There is no income stream but yet I am forced to pay for this? What if I had no money at all? Even the tax is too much so what happens? I go to jail? Or is Delirium going to pay my health care along with everyone else? That means that Delirium and everyone else has to pay even more than their fair share.
Your already paying too much so its beyond time to say enough is enough.
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The shortage of doctors is the one thing that isn't dicussed much.
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The bill itself is reason to complain. No one has a right to tell me I have to buy anything. There is a name for that.
Unless you live in New Hampshire, don't all states require you to have auto insurance already?
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Unless you live in New Hampshire, don't all states require you to have auto insurance already?
The point is they dont require you to buy a car. Its a little different when you take a lethal weapon out of the garage. Thats called regulation.
What exactly is regulated that forces me to buy health insurance? The answer is really simple and that isnt part of the deal we all signed up for.
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Talk to any doctor I have encountered and I asked about, "What do you think about the Medicare changes?" Every one of them are definitely not happy. One eye guy has had to cut back staff hours due to non-payment issues by the Feds.
The docs make too much money. 1960's I remember just $8 for an office visit, but that was before the outrageous malpractice insurance increases.
The real cutbacks will happen in 8 years, after Obama's 2nd term, if he gets that far on re-election.
Somebody has to keep Wal*Mart and McDonald's labor market healthy once the new immigration laws kick in and vamos back to the homeland.
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I could tell you exactly how to fix the labor problems in this country but the very first line would peg Skuzzys rule book violation scale and send me offline for at least two weeks.
Health care isnt the only situation that needs to be changed but if the rest of us are going to suffer through the changes then so should the lawyers (tort reform was taken off the table if I remember correctly).
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Anybody know what the max emloyers pay for insurance before it becomes taxable income to employee and when that becomes effective?
Semp
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I would like a link to a written copy of the bill so I can discover all the little hidden realities.
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Not hard to find.
http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf (http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf)
Better get comfortable though, 1990 pages.
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Thanks.
After just 450 pages I can see already this is the largest tax increase ever and it isnt going to fix health care.
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wow, 3 days and going. its the little thread that could!
I think I can, I think I can.
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Yep, this one is going to die on the vine as there is no way you can discuss this without bringing up politics. I'll give it another hour.
It's still going,lol. It is a very informative link. It helped me to understand a lot of the changes.
Thanks!!
<S> Oz
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Thanks.
After just 450 pages I can see already this is the largest tax increase ever and it isnt going to fix health care.
So in a little over an hour, you read 450 pages? :rofl :rofl :rofl Sure Voss.
Oz
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The unstated thing here is the money passes through Washington....who thinks all of it will be used on healthcare? Excess social security money used to be tucked away....as it seemed we would NEVER run out. We've been spending the excess since 1970 or so.....sure would have been nice to have saved the extra money. SS went into the red this month
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So in a little over an hour, you read 450 pages? :rofl :rofl :rofl Sure Voss.
Oz
lol I noticed that. :rofl
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The point is I planned so I dont have to have an insurance that will fail me just when I need it most. If you are not in the same position I suggest you buy into the insurance plan that makes the most sense for you. Point two is I dont want an insurance company telling me which doctor I can see or be treated by. I didnt work as hard as I have just to have someone (anyone) tell me what I have to do. That includes a health care reform.
You can still see whatever doctor you want..... the insurance just might not pay. Unless you have Bill Gates type money then an illness can wipe out your funds awful quick. Then your on handouts.
I have insurance and so do most all of my employees.
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So in a little over an hour, you read 450 pages? :rofl :rofl :rofl Sure Voss.
Here we have another troll trying to get the thread closed.
I guess you didnt look at the pdf linked above? If you cant read that huge font with very few words per line then you must be as worthless as I think you are.
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You can still see whatever doctor you want..... the insurance just might not pay. Unless you have Bill Gates type money then an illness can wipe out your funds awful quick. Then your on handouts.
I have insurance and so do most all of my employees.
Shuffler you should read the bill. This isnt going to fix health care. The primary goal of the bill is to place so much burden (increased taxes) upon businesses that there will be no new jobs after the bill goes into law or until the bill is repealed. Worse though is the fact that most Doctors worth anything are not going to accept the terms of the Government and will probably export themselves or just stop practicing medicine.
Whoever thought this thing up knows less about business than anyone responding to this forum and that means ZERO they know about business.
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lol I noticed that. :rofl
cmon guys leave vause err voss err chalenge alone
he just made a typo, he meant to say 4.5 pages
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No I meant what I said Ink (Mortis). BTW... the next time you care to threaten my family you better make sure your ready to leave the game forever. You are a punk and no I dont feel threatened by you but NO ONE has to put up with that. NO ONE. And dont start in about how you know more about business than I do because living in your mothers basement isnt exactly preparing you for the big league of corporate finance.
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No I meant what I said Ink (Mortis). BTW... the next time you care to threaten my family you better make sure your ready to leave the game forever. You are a punk and no I dont feel threatened by you but NO ONE has to put up with that. NO ONE. And dont start in about how you know more about business than I do because living in your mothers basement isnt exactly preparing you for the big league of corporate finance.
damn I gotta go....my moms calling
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IN
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lol so chalenge when exactly did I threaten you or your family? cant remember.
maybe I said something along the lines of wishing to meet you in person or some such thing, which I do not consider a threat, besides the fact, I don't threaten people, I say how I feel, I speak the truth, and considering what has transpired between you and this community, well I am sure I have never been nice to you nor will I ever be until you admit that you are not paul vause, this voss guy that scammed/ripped off this community, I know this has happened, and I feel pretty darn confident that you are, one and the same.
This is from the bottom of my heart, if you are not this guy, then I wholeheartedly apologize. not much worse then being accused of something you did not do.
if you are this guy then the only way to redeem yourself is to "come clean" and explain to this community, who you are and what you did, and to apologize for your actions, you may lose some "friends",but you may gain a lot more then that, some self respect, Everyone has done bad things in there life that they may regret, but don't ever have the chance to redeem themselves, you do, here and now.
in all reality the Truth is more important then all that, and you may find yourself with a lot less hostility from BBS members.
I know I for one would respect you a lot more, I most likely still would not consider you a "friend" but I know I would look at you differently and see someone who screwed up but wants to make it right. to me that is more important, and Honorable.
and as far as living in my moms basement......last time I "lived" with my "mom" I was 6 months old.
Paul "INK" Fields
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lol so chalenge when exactly did I threaten you or your family? cant remember.
There were only about 80 witnesses online at the time. Every one of them telling you to shut up. Obviously you havent got the guts to own up to your own actions which also means you should stop hunting 'Voss' because you cant confess the very same sins you accuse him of.
I guess you were out of your mind because no one in his right mind would act that way. Of course I beliee you and your friends are always out of your minds. Acting the way you do on the bbs toward me and yes many others just makes you look like a moron. No one actually believes anything you say because of the lunatic manner that you use. Your all kids and its obvious that you need to grow up.
You have been told time and time again that you are on the wrong track and yet you refuse to accept it. If you want to use that as an excuse for the way you 'behave' then its obvious you have no class and probably never have. What you 'bois' fail to realize is those of us that enjoy this game and post on the bbs are in the minority of players. Once I hit 'Post' on any of these messages I generally forget the thread altogether because it isnt the focus of my life. You mean nothing to me and neither do any of the rest of your 'fanbois.' You seem to need the attention you get from the BBS and so you should probably take a few months off and learn a few priorities about life. I have watched for two years now how you boys pick and analyze every detail of a post in order to find a single thread of weakness you can pick at to tear someone down in an attempt to build yourselves up. Pitiful!
Dont talk to me about respect. You dont know the meaning of the word.
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(http://officeimg.vo.msecnd.net/en-us/images/emoticon-eating-popcorn-MH900437984.jpg)
I knew this thread was going to get locked by never expected this twist.
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In the first of several new taxes to help pay for the plan, the sun rises on a new 10% tax on indoor tanning services.
I could do without the bad puns, but it's informative nonetheless.
Thanks for the link!
(thanks for keeping the thread open long enough for me to see it, too)
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There were only about 80 witnesses online at the time. Every one of them telling you to shut up. Obviously you havent got the guts to own up to your own actions which also means you should stop hunting 'Voss' because you cant confess the very same sins you accuse him of.
I guess you were out of your mind because no one in his right mind would act that way. Of course I beliee you and your friends are always out of your minds. Acting the way you do on the bbs toward me and yes many others just makes you look like a moron. No one actually believes anything you say because of the lunatic manner that you use. Your all kids and its obvious that you need to grow up.
You have been told time and time again that you are on the wrong track and yet you refuse to accept it. If you want to use that as an excuse for the way you 'behave' then its obvious you have no class and probably never have. What you 'bois' fail to realize is those of us that enjoy this game and post on the bbs are in the minority of players. Once I hit 'Post' on any of these messages I generally forget the thread altogether because it isnt the focus of my life. You mean nothing to me and neither do any of the rest of your 'fanbois.' You seem to need the attention you get from the BBS and so you should probably take a few months off and learn a few priorities about life. I have watched for two years now how you boys pick and analyze every detail of a post in order to find a single thread of weakness you can pick at to tear someone down in an attempt to build yourselves up. Pitiful!
Dont talk to me about respect. You dont know the meaning of the word.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
where are all these witnesses? you speak of... where is the film?
oh man you are a piece of work.
comes around goes around.
c-ya voss tard-boy
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Shuffler you should read the bill. This isnt going to fix health care. The primary goal of the bill is to place so much burden (increased taxes) upon businesses that there will be no new jobs after the bill goes into law or until the bill is repealed. Worse though is the fact that most Doctors worth anything are not going to accept the terms of the Government and will probably export themselves or just stop practicing medicine.
Whoever thought this thing up knows less about business than anyone responding to this forum and that means ZERO they know about business.
I've said almost this exact thing.
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(http://officeimg.vo.msecnd.net/en-us/images/emoticon-eating-popcorn-MH900437984.jpg)
I knew this thread was going to get locked by never expected this twist.
Great, soda on the monitor... Again.
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Before this gets locked I just wanted to throw my 5 cents in....
I've just come out of 9 days in NZ's public healthcare system with a gangrenous gall bladder followed by an e coli anti-biotic resistant infection. It included ambulance rides, morphine, hot nurses, and a stint in ICU.
The level of care I got was awesome, the people were awesome. The medical staff not only supported me but my wife was checked on daily as she was taking it really bad.
Now I'm out, having a break while I heal. I get two district nurses come visit me at home daily to check my wound dressings and general health.
And the whole time it cost me ZIP, ZERO, NADA... plus our labour laws give us a certain level of paid sick leave, so the whole time I've been off there's been no worry about loss of income.
Net result is I come out of the system health, unstressed and ready to be productive again very quickly.
Hope you guys in the US get your system sorted. I know it's a hard road and a lot of changes needed.
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Did you have all that before you went in or while you were there.
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And the whole time it cost me ZIP, ZERO, NADA... plus our labour laws give us a certain level of paid sick leave, so the whole time I've been off there's been no worry about loss of income.
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see? this is what people don't understand. it DID cost you a LOT. you, your neighbors, your friends, people on the other side of your country that are never going to meet you............in the form of taxes of different sorts.
i don't know about you, but i don't want to pay for other peoples healthcare. i don't want them paying for mine. i'll pay my own way, thank you very much.
that being said.....a friend in canada....her husband was at the dr's office. they found some sort of lump on something inside of him,...i can't remember where or on what. the point is the doc. had him get checked a little further......and they then told him to wait 6 months, and see what happens.
is that good health care in your eyes?
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Combine free healthcare with all the people here that would go to the doctor for everything with the lack of doctors. What will that lead to? The thing that pisses me off about the whole thing is I would carry the insurance that my company offers if it wasn't a complete piece of overpriced crap. God help my if I have it and need a MRI on my knee. I would still owe over 2 grand after the insurance paid it's $1,000 and I would have any money left for test for the rest of the year.
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Before this gets locked I just wanted to throw my 5 cents in....
I've just come out of 9 days in NZ's public healthcare system with a gangrenous gall bladder followed by an e coli anti-biotic resistant infection. It included ambulance rides, morphine, hot nurses, and a stint in ICU.
The level of care I got was awesome, the people were awesome. The medical staff not only supported me but my wife was checked on daily as she was taking it really bad.
Now I'm out, having a break while I heal. I get two district nurses come visit me at home daily to check my wound dressings and general health.
And the whole time it cost me ZIP, ZERO, NADA... plus our labour laws give us a certain level of paid sick leave, so the whole time I've been off there's been no worry about loss of income.
Net result is I come out of the system health, unstressed and ready to be productive again very quickly.
Hope you guys in the US get your system sorted. I know it's a hard road and a lot of changes needed.
What is the percentage of doctors to patients in NZ? How many people on welfare or illegal? I don't know what it is but here in the states we don't have enough doctors to cover everyone.
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From health care news to all of that silliness.
This thread has reached a state of putrefaction.
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see? this is what people don't understand. it DID cost you a LOT. you, your neighbors, your friends, people on the other side of your country that are never going to meet you............in the form of taxes of different sorts.
i don't know about you, but i don't want to pay for other peoples healthcare. i don't want them paying for mine. i'll pay my own way, thank you very much.
Well, a few months back there were some stats released on the real tax rates around the world (ie what income you are left with after expenses such as health insurance, education etc, basically NZ ranked way better than the US (sorry try to find the article). We're only a country of $4mill. So it's a matter of perception imho.
Have a read here: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/personal-finance/3688049/Kiwis-tax-burden-among-OECDs-lowest
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What is the percentage of doctors to patients in NZ? How many people on welfare or illegal? I don't know what it is but here in the states we don't have enough doctors to cover everyone.
nationmaster says USA has more per capita than NZ (2.3 per 1000 vs 2.2 per 1000).
welfare it says NZ spends 18.5% of gdp on welfare vs USA's 14.8%.
So we have less doctors, spend more money on welfare, low net taxation, and a good working public healthcare system.
Not saying you guys are gonna get this overnight, but the naysayers to public healthcare need to face the fact that it is being done successfully. I doubt NZ is the only country. Sure it's not perfect, but it sounds better than what you guys have.
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C'mon, Skuz, hurry up and lock it, I'm tired of these useless notifications. Although the HBO mini-series going on there is getting interesting... :eek: :eek: :eek: :bolt:
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The US spends way too much on other countries..................
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nationmaster says USA has more per capita than NZ (2.3 per 1000 vs 2.2 per 1000).
welfare it says NZ spends 18.5% of gdp on welfare vs USA's 14.8%.
So we have less doctors, spend more money on welfare, low net taxation, and a good working public healthcare system.
Not saying you guys are gonna get this overnight, but the naysayers to public healthcare need to face the fact that it is being done successfully. I doubt NZ is the only country. Sure it's not perfect, but it sounds better than what you guys have.
The population of New Zealand is less than 4.4 million with a density of less than 42 people per square mile. The Dallas, Texas Metro Area (basically a few cities bunched together) which is where HTC is based out of.. has a population of just under 6.5 million with just under 3700 people per square mile. Keep in mind, this is one single metro area in one of fifty states with almost 50% more than your entire country. The United States has a total population of... what? 310 MILLION PEOPLE? Heck, the last time the US had the same population that NZ has now was in the 1790's!!!
My point is that running a government controlled health care system is a completely different endeavor for each of us. People in smaller countries such as yours often have a hard time understanding just how big this difference is! I saw someone else on here from NZ (may have even been you) who was scratching their head in disbelief that the US doesn't have nearly as much internet bandwidth, speed, consistency, or reliability as you do.. but the reason is because there is such a huge area, and such a large number and range of people... that it is nearly impossible to do...
Health care reform is a similar kind of deal. It will be on such a large scale that it will be impossible to implement, let alone to do so in an efficient and uncorrupted way. Throw in a government that was designed FROM THE BEGINNING to be purposely inefficient in order to keep people from wanting this sort of thing... and it's just a recipe for disaster.
You also have to remember that there are at least 3 levels of government here (for the most part)...
- Local Government (Each city/town has their own laws and government figures)
- State Government
- Federal Government
Of course State trumps Local laws, and Federal trumps them all... but it's three levels of Government each person has to deal with. Because of why and how this country formed, the Federal Government was designed to have very little actual power. I mean, we broke away from a monarchist Government mostly due to their abuse of power, and as a direct result of that we designed our Federal Government to have a lot of checks and balances, and also designed it so the population would be discouraged from wanting them to control issues on things.. just like this.
Now the State government is a little different. These Governments were designed to have a lot more impact on each persons' lives... so in essence, the State Government (from the population's points of view) should be much, much more powerful than the Federal Government. And this was plausible because if it got to be too ridiculous, you could simply move to another state.
Well over the years (especially the last century) the Federal Government has inched its way along becoming gradually more and more a part of the average person's life... starting with the old "New Deal" programs and then getting involved with education funding and employment and retirement... more recently with "Stimulus Recovery Programs" and now they want to add health care to that list?! It's simply ridiculous even to the point that it is, that the Federal Government has as much power as it does.
I could continue to go on and on about the subject but I have to stop here, as I don't want to be the one responsible for locking this thread... but the simple fact is that the American Public should not only reject a Federal Controlled health care program.. but SHOULD BE OBLIGATED TO DO SO based on principle. Many people have forgotten this obligation.
Now, if each State wants to maybe propose their own versions of health care reform... depending on what it would entail I may be for or against it... but regardless it would be the responsibility of each state to do so... NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
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Having come from a country with National health care (Australia) as well as a private health insurance system to fill the gaps the national system wont fill or is lacking. Employers have nothing to do with health insurance there every one is in the national system & you can choose a private option of your choice. Or no private coverage.
Living 26 years there & the past 21 years here in the USA. A couple of comparisons between the two.
Never waited in line in Australia under national system. I have under my employers system here in the States.
Never have been refused service under Australian system. I have here under employer system.
Never paid a deductable under Australian system. Always have here in the USA.
Cost? Australian system cheaper than here in the USA hands down.
Preexisting condition clauses in Australia? None at least while I was there. You know the answer for here.
Level of care by medical practitioners on both continents? About the same for the most part with the exception of waiting here in the USA & denial of service.
Take it for what it's worth just my experience to date.
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The population of New Zealand is less than 4.4 million with a density of less than 42 people per square mile. The Dallas, Texas Metro Area (basically a few cities bunched together) which is where HTC is based out of.. has a population of just under 6.5 million with just under 3700 people per square mile. Keep in mind, this is one single metro area in one of fifty states with almost 50% more than your entire country. The United States has a total population of... what? 310 MILLION PEOPLE? Heck, the last time the US had the same population that NZ has now was in the 1790's!!!
One could argue the opposite though, the USA has massive resources compared to NZ, our low spread out population is difficult to service.
But yeah the rest of it is very valid about the govt structure, that is probably the biggest problem facing you guys.
Again the point many of us are trying to make is public healthcare is not evil, works, doesn't cost more (actually it appears to cost the tax payer less).
When we hear the cost of medical care in the USA, and the refusal based on pre-existing conditions we are absolutely gobsmacked.
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One major reason of high costs here? GREED Especially for the big drug companies. They prey on people, especially older. There are certain meds that lets say have their "protection" (ie trademark) clauses, that prevent anyone else from making a generic brand for several years, or longer. A lot of meds that the elderly use, are especially high priced. The companies know that the meds are needed, know they are the only makers, and jack the prices. Older people flock to the Canadien Pharmacies and get same Meds for often a quarter of the costs that they would pay here.
The reps that go to the DR's offices to push the meds, often make 100k + a year. Often are given perks and big bonuses.
They recently changed the laws on what drug companies can give to Dr's who prescribe their meds. Companies were often giving away cruises and other perks.
A lot still (as far as I know), give Dr's a kickback for every script they write for particular high profit drugs (ie Heart Meds, Blood Pressure Meds, etc.)
Med care in the states is not equal, like justice it depends on how much money you have.
I for one, am lucky. I do have insurance. I pay a good bit each month for it, but I have a wife and 1 daughter left at home, I have to have it.
If I did not have it, I would be almost a quarter mil in Med debt, because of bladder cancer surgery and follow-ups, and spinal fusion surgery and follow-ups.
I am retired now and have no clue what i would do if I had no insurance. I'm hoping that things will improve somehow in the states. It won't be by mandating everything and forcing people to buy it, nor by a Gov. run program will it get fixed.
<S> Oz
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Combine free healthcare with all the people here that would go to the doctor for everything with the lack of doctors. What will that lead to? The thing that pisses me off about the whole thing is I would carry the insurance that my company offers if it wasn't a complete piece of overpriced crap. God help my if I have it and need a MRI on my knee. I would still owe over 2 grand after the insurance paid it's $1,000 and I would have any money left for test for the rest of the year.
it will NOT be free.
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nationmaster says USA has more per capita than NZ (2.3 per 1000 vs 2.2 per 1000).
welfare it says NZ spends 18.5% of gdp on welfare vs USA's 14.8%.
So we have less doctors, spend more money on welfare, low net taxation, and a good working public healthcare system.
Not saying you guys are gonna get this overnight, but the naysayers to public healthcare need to face the fact that it is being done successfully. I doubt NZ is the only country. Sure it's not perfect, but it sounds better than what you guys have.
well....remember this. the person that said that he would impose no new taxes has signed a HUGE new tax into law, known as the healthcare bill. that is what it amounts to, just with a different name.
not only that, but i believe there will be limits on some things...........it is not good at all. our taxes/expenses are going to skyrocket when this kicks in.....no matter how you look at it, because you either buy what they tell you to buy, or they charge you a tax because you didn't. what is this country coming to?
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The US spends way too much on other countries..................
+ a billion
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what people forget to consider also is that the big drug companies are under no obligation to create "cures". the majority of the meds on the market are designed for one purpose only, that is to treat.
now before someone says "they are the same thing", i shall explain a bit.
lets say for example you sprain your wrist. when a doctor gives you any kind of pain management medication he treating a symptom or side effect of the underlying cause, this is the same when he prescribes an anti-inflamatory medication. the only part of the process that is actually intended to aid in the bodies recovery of the damage done to it is the bandage that he wraps your wrist in to reduce movement. that bandage being the least expensive part of the entire process is in the end the only part of the process that promotes natural recovery of the injured wrist.
the drug companies go into the process with the understanding that a person who is "treated" uses alot more medication and for a much longer period of time than a person who is cured. pain and discomfort "management" are the biggest of these treatments, the will give you painkillers just for walking in the door of a hospital or clinic these days.
when i was a boy my brother put his arm through a window causing multiple deep gashes on his for arm, i remember when he came home from the hospital later that evening, my dad explained to my mom that the doctor had numbed the arm so they could stitch it, but that from that point on nothing more than aspirin should be needed to control his pain. a year or so ago a friend of mine cut his arm at work, (it was a single gash fairly deep but no bigger than the biggest gash on my brothers arm). he told me when we talked of his trip to the hospital that they prescribed him a weeks worth of a morphine like (i don't know meds so i don't remember the name) pain killer for a cut that he told me didn't bother him a bit without the medication. he said that he had filled the prescription and the bill he had to turn over to his work was over $200.00 for that one prescription. now keep in mind, that pain management drug does absolutely nothing to help promote healing or curing of the underlying cause, the gash. it only "treats" a symptom, the pain.
this is the same philosophy used by the drug companies when they look to any potentially long term health issue. you make far more money "treating" a cold than curing it. between pain and discomfort drugs and other management medications they will make far more money than if they just did one of two things, first tell you to take your sissy bellybutton home and tough it out for a couple days while your body does what it was designed to do, or second and only if truly needed, give you an antibiotic to help kill the bug and be done with it.
if the drug companies make a pill and call it a treatment, then doctors out of fear of being sued by the patient for not prescribing it, will prescribe it all the time. many of the drugs we are given have less than a 30% rate of success doing what they are being prescribed to do in clinical testing. that means that some of the medication being given to the public is already known to be worthless, or even worse harmful, to the patient two thirds of the time. but this will not stop the drug companies from promoting their "treatment" and pushing the doctors to prescribe it.
think of it this way, if you knew your automechanic had less than a one third success rate in fixing your car but was constantly charging you an inflated amount of money for parts that had nothing to do with the problem you brought it in for, how long would you continue to use him?
we as Americans have also aided in the creation of our own Frankenstein health system by our own actions. every cut bump bruise or cough and we tend to run to the doctors like lil babies crying to mamma. a good diet, a lil exercises and some common sense and the end of a majority of American health issues would be a very real possibility. but alas, this will never be, we Americans have become slaves to our own sissydom!
in the time i have been writing this (about 20 minutes) there have been 5 prescription drug commercials on tv..............
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good write.
i also believe that the over-use of drugs(prescription) is a major cause for people getting so sick, so easily these days.
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good write.
i also believe that the over-use of drugs(prescription) is a major cause for people getting so sick, so easily these days.
Agreed! everytime you use an outside source to treat or cure a sickness you weaken the bodies own natural ability to do these things for themselves.
i refuse to take medication of any kind. i was just brought up that way. i might get a cold about once every 4 or 5 years. oh and i work in the towing industry so i am exposed to many strangers in all walks of life every day. so i am not living in a sheltered bubble away from the world, my risk of exposure is definitely high enough to show that your body is designed to fight for itself and will if given the opportunity.
now obviously some things have to be treated, the body cannot cure all things by itself and some people have other issues that are either genetic or environmental etc etc, for these issue outside help is needed for survival. but we abuse this and turn to drugs and doctors for everything. we have created such a bloated and wasteful system that i honestly don't think it can be cured........only treated
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Agreed! everytime you use an outside source to treat or cure a sickness you weaken the bodies own natural ability to do these things for themselves.
i refuse to take medication of any kind. i was just brought up that way. i might get a cold about once every 4 or 5 years. oh and i work in the towing industry so i am exposed to many strangers in all walks of life every day. so i am not living in a sheltered bubble away from the world, my risk of exposure is definitely high enough to show that your body is designed to fight for itself and will if given the opportunity.
now obviously some things have to be treated, the body cannot cure all things by itself and some people have other issues that are either genetic or environmental etc etc, for these issue outside help is needed for survival. but we abuse this and turn to drugs and doctors for everything. we have created such a bloated and wasteful system that i honestly don't think it can be cured........only treated
yep,
the only thing i ever take, is asperin, or ibuprofen if i get a bad enough headache.
and like you said.......i get sick only every few years. oh yea....almost forgot.......when i DO get a cold, vicks vapor rub. i put it on me just like my grand mother used to do....and it works......
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Drug companies that sell a drug for $100 a tablet here will sell the same tablet overseas for $5.
We have more folks in our government than there are people in NZ.
Impossible to compare to smaller countries head to head.
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its not impossible, its just requires some appreciation of the effects of scale.
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its not impossible, its just requires some appreciation of the effects of scale.
If it was just scale it would be easy. Add red tape and money under the table, etc.
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Progressivism is killing America! :noid
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he told me when we talked of his trip to the hospital that they prescribed him a weeks worth of a morphine like (i don't know meds so i don't remember the name) pain killer for a cut that he told me didn't bother him a bit without the medication. he said that he had filled the prescription and the bill he had to turn over to his work was over $200.00 for that one prescription. now keep in mind, that pain management drug does absolutely nothing to help promote healing or curing of the underlying cause, the gash. it only "treats" a symptom, the pain.
This is another seriously threatening behavior pattern the American public has fallen into, and it is summed up into the following saying, "Just because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD". Simply put, if your friend's injury didn't bother him a bit without the medication, then why did he fill the prescription to begin with? For a large company they might not care so much, but if he worked for a small company, he could have went to his boss and said "Listen.. they wanted me to fill this $200 pain medicine prescription but I wasn't hurting so I didn't bother" and you know what? Next time things get tough and layoffs go around, there's a good chance they'll remember just that and keep you on for that reason! It's all about respect here.
The biggest problem with this country is the mentality of the people... plain and simple. Yes, a lot of us here have the right attitudes about things.. but most people out there.. well they don't use their noggins and reject common sense. If someone is overweight and they get diabetes they will often opt to take a series of pills and shots to control things rather than take the hard approach and start some kind of fitness program! Yes.. there are people with serious problems that require serious medications to address this, but probably 90% percent of people out there take drugs they don't need. Why? Because they act like sheep.. doing something because their doctor told them to rather than doing some research of their own and learning on their own. I'm not saying Doctors are naturally evil, but there are good ones and bad ones but it all comes down to taking care of yourself.
"Just because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD"... kind of funny.. it's a line I've told my dad a million times and he still refuses to listen. He has three brothers that are well off that are constantly trying to out-do each other with new furniture.. fixtures.. appliances.. and what not. Every time they replace something, they give my dad their old one. Because of this, my dad has a house PACKED FULL of mismatched furniture. He has a garage PACKED FULL of light fixtures, shower doors, medicine cabinets, windows, curtains, bbq grills. It is all functional and a lot is in good shape, but none of it I would consider to be "perfect" and almost none of it he really has any business having. He lives in a rental house and can't even install most of the stuff he gets! So it all sits in the garage and the basement and the back porch and when I ask him why he keeps taking in all of this stuff that he's never going to use he says "It was free!" Then we get in a bit of an argument about it (especially when he tries to shove some of it my way) and the subject gets changed. I'm afraid he's going to be on that show "Hoarders" before too long LOL.
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Not progressive, one of man's oldest (is vice the word I want here) is greed, self-interest.
<S> Oz
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Raptor you have to realize that right now there is a sort of Civil War brewing in the USA. Part of the country wants the Federal Government to take control of our everyday lives, and part of the country does not. I happen to believe that the Federal Government has no business whatsoever being a part of my everyday life. I firmly believe that this country was formed primarily with that ideal in mind, and this is shown time and time again in the US Constitution.
Because of this, it does not matter how "cheap" Federal healthcare could be.. or how "efficient" it could be.. none of this matters.. period. The Feds could come up with the most thought out, masterful plan in the world and I still wouldn't support it. Now, when you add in how expensive and inefficient proposed Federal healthcare plans are.. it just makes the joke that much more laughable. Yes, the healthcare industry needs some reworking.. nobody is arguing that, but I firmly believe that it would be much more beneficial for the Feds to use the FDA to impose more rules on the pharmaceutical companies. There are ways of fixing this without the Feds taking it over completely.
I do believe that in general, the system isn't broken. The way it is now, anyone can walk in from the streets (legal or not) and get care at any hospital. At my work, I have some of the best insurance, it is reasonably priced for myself AND my employer... and this is a no deductible and no lifetime limit kind of deal. As for pre-existing conditions... well I think it's blown a little bit out of proportion... YES I know.. the people fighting it aren't agreeing with me, but this isn't so much of a problem with employer supplied insurance... mostly only applies to private insurance policies.. but there are ways of fixing this without taking it over altogether. I had back issues in the past with different insurance.. I still have back issues now.. I've never had an insurance claim rejected because of it.
There are also programs that have been in place for decades to help out low income families with healthcare services. Heck, my ex- sister in law purposely left her own daughter off of her own insurance plan (through her work) so she could lie to the government about her income and get welfare, food stamps, WIC, and free healthcare for her daughter. It was blatant abuse of the system and ticked us off profoundly... but that's a different story altogether. The simple truth is that there are not that many people on the streets who are dying from the flu because they couldn't get treated. The few that this DOES happen to refuse to see a doctor in the first place.
What I fear most is that the US will succumb to these people who think the government should be obligated to supply everything they need in life, and in exchange we will become powerless as a nation to stop any of it... and our country will become exactly what it was that we fought against in the first place. I have always been amazed at how quickly we grew as a nation... both in size AND in power... in such a relatively small period of time (couple hundred years). Something had to have fueled all of this... and that something is being lost a little bit every day, right out from under people's noses.. and it's ALMOST to the point that people don't even know what that something is anymore. That something is self-dependence.. both as a nation and as individuals. We ARE the USA, and until people realize this once again it's going to be a hard uphill battle...
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This is another seriously threatening behavior pattern the American public has fallen into, and it is summed up into the following saying, "Just because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD". Simply put, if your friend's injury didn't bother him a bit without the medication, then why did he fill the prescription to begin with? For a large company they might not care so much, but if he worked for a small company, he could have went to his boss and said "Listen.. they wanted me to fill this $200 pain medicine prescription but I wasn't hurting so I didn't bother" and you know what? Next time things get tough and layoffs go around, there's a good chance they'll remember just that and keep you on for that reason! It's all about respect here.
The biggest problem with this country is the mentality of the people... plain and simple. Yes, a lot of us here have the right attitudes about things.. but most people out there.. well they don't use their noggins and reject common sense. If someone is overweight and they get diabetes they will often opt to take a series of pills and shots to control things rather than take the hard approach and start some kind of fitness program! Yes.. there are people with serious problems that require serious medications to address this, but probably 90% percent of people out there take drugs they don't need. Why? Because they act like sheep.. doing something because their doctor told them to rather than doing some research of their own and learning on their own. I'm not saying Doctors are naturally evil, but there are good ones and bad ones but it all comes down to taking care of yourself.
"Just because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD"... kind of funny.. it's a line I've told my dad a million times and he still refuses to listen. He has three brothers that are well off that are constantly trying to out-do each other with new furniture.. fixtures.. appliances.. and what not. Every time they replace something, they give my dad their old one. Because of this, my dad has a house PACKED FULL of mismatched furniture. He has a garage PACKED FULL of light fixtures, shower doors, medicine cabinets, windows, curtains, bbq grills. It is all functional and a lot is in good shape, but none of it I would consider to be "perfect" and almost none of it he really has any business having. He lives in a rental house and can't even install most of the stuff he gets! So it all sits in the garage and the basement and the back porch and when I ask him why he keeps taking in all of this stuff that he's never going to use he says "It was free!" Then we get in a bit of an argument about it (especially when he tries to shove some of it my way) and the subject gets changed. I'm afraid he's going to be on that show "Hoarders" before too long LOL.
he filled the prescription, because he sold it.
when i've had work done on me that they felt i was going to need pain killers for, i was prescribed oxycotten. they told me to get that filled, 'cause i'd need it.
i didn't need it, and i can't tell you how many people tried to buy that crap from me. i shredded the prescription.
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This is another seriously threatening behavior pattern the American public has fallen into, and it is summed up into the following saying, "Just because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD". Simply put, if your friend's injury didn't bother him a bit without the medication, then why did he fill the prescription to begin with? For a large company they might not care so much, but if he worked for a small company, he could have went to his boss and said "Listen.. they wanted me to fill this $200 pain medicine prescription but I wasn't hurting so I didn't bother" and you know what? Next time things get tough and layoffs go around, there's a good chance they'll remember just that and keep you on for that reason! It's all about respect here.
he filled the prescription, because he sold it.
when I've had work done on me that they felt i was going to need pain killers for, i was prescribed oxycotten. they told me to get that filled, 'cause i'd need it.
i didn't need it, and i can't tell you how many people tried to buy that crap from me. i shredded the prescription.
actually he filled it because he had to. his workmans comp representative explained to him that if he fails to fill it and then develops complications, IE infection nerve damage etc then he would be setting himself up to have to suffer without help. they (workmans comp) would claim that he failed to follow the doctors orders and this would make any subsequent issues his liability. so essentially the system forced him to buy the medicine that he didn't want need or to the best of my knowledge use.
Cap :furious he didn't sell them. i think they may still be sitting in his medicine cabinet.
Tigger, i do agree with everything else you have hypothesized and i also for the most part agree with your worries and fears on the issue!
<<S>> guys good thoughts here
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I do believe that in general, the system isn't broken. The way it is now, anyone can walk in from the streets (legal or not) and get care at any hospital.
Who do you think pays for 'anyone' to walk in and get care without having to pay for it? Local hospitals and the individual states do... This is one of the many reasons that health care is so expensive is because the hospital's costs have to be passed on to those that actually have insurance or who aren't indigent.
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Some scary stuff about pharmaceuticals there. Over here it's controlled by a govt agency, pharmac. They mandate which drugs are subsidized by the health system. For example my asthma preventer medicine is free. They act as a sort of buffer to stop the drug company shenanigans you have in the US.
A lot of other preventative stuff goes into our healthcare (free breast screening, etc for woman). A visit for me to the GP costs ~US$25, for my kids it's free.
We also have a 3rd component, Accident Compensation Corporation. They handle accident payouts. ie no frivilous lawsuits are really possible here. ACC is more of a user pays component, it levies tax in different ways, businesses (rated on their national safety average, ie construction pays more than office work), and things like vehicle registration have a component in them.
I think the problem for the US is you need to address a whole bunch of side issues to make the healthcare work (ie the drug rorts, the lawsuits etc).
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Some scary stuff about pharmaceuticals there. Over here it's controlled by a govt agency, pharmac. They mandate which drugs are subsidized by the health system. For example my asthma preventer medicine is free. They act as a sort of buffer to stop the drug company shenanigans you have in the US.
A lot of other preventative stuff goes into our healthcare (free breast screening, etc for woman). A visit for me to the GP costs ~US$25, for my kids it's free.
We also have a 3rd component, Accident Compensation Corporation. They handle accident payouts. ie no frivilous lawsuits are really possible here. ACC is more of a user pays component, it levies tax in different ways, businesses (rated on their national safety average, ie construction pays more than office work), and things like vehicle registration have a component in them.
I think the problem for the US is you need to address a whole bunch of side issues to make the healthcare work (ie the drug rorts, the lawsuits etc).
it is not free it is not free it is not free it is not free it is not free it is not free it is not free
:D
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You know what I like... that free healthcare! :banana:
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it is not free it is not free it is not free it is not free it is not free it is not free it is not free
:D
LOL ok but compared to what you guys pay for healthcare and drugs it's pretty close to it :D
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LOL ok but compared to what you guys pay for healthcare and drugs it's pretty close to it :D
i'd rather not pay for joe smiths broken arm, or their kids cold medication, or their parents acid reflux disease medication.....and that's what happens when we get what we're going to getr in a couple of years.
i can't believe that they've pulled the wool over so many peoples eyes...........
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i'd rather not pay for joe smiths broken arm, or their kids cold medication, or their parents acid reflux disease medication.....and that's what happens when we get what we're going to getr in a couple of years.
i can't believe that they've pulled the wool over so many peoples eyes...........
Have you been in an emergency room of late here in the USA? You are already paying for it along with the rest of us that have health insurance.
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i'd rather not pay for joe smiths broken arm, or their kids cold medication, or their parents acid reflux disease medication.....and that's what happens when we get what we're going to getr in a couple of years.
i can't believe that they've pulled the wool over so many peoples eyes...........
Well, it costs me less to pay for other peoples healthcare and mine, than it does for you to cover your own healthcare alone. And I never have to worry about being refused healthcare for whatever reasons (eg pre-existing conditions etc), as well as having a healthcare system focussed on preventative medicine.
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Have you been in an emergency room of late here in the USA? You are already paying for it along with the rest of us that have health insurance.
I've said that a few times already in this thread.
They don't understand that the Uninsured and the fiscally irresponsible still get their health care paid for. Do you think that money magically appears in the hospital's hands? No, your insurance company pays (ie higher co-pays or a greater weekly cost to you) higher costs to the hospital or the State in which you live reimburses the hospital (the State increases your taxes).
If you don't want everyone to have healthcare, you need to put a bullet in each of their heads when they come to the hospital without a method of paying for the service.
(I'm jesting with that last sentence, but no one ever gets turned away, regardless of money)
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Nor should they be Delirium.
The problem is that we have our money extended to the entire world before we help our own countrymen. Americas health care should be for Americans ONLY and then anyone that can come here with the money to pay for care should get it. The way this law is written the only things that will actually be taken care of are pharmaceutical companies and government ponzi schemes like medicare and social security. You as an average person without the money to pay yourself for the care you receive will instead receive worse healthcare under the new system. You will come to understand this when you have to wait for the first time a period of fourteen months to see a doctor for the flu or a nasty cold that wont go away. In the meanwhile businesses will not be creating jobs because its too expensive to add employees because of this bill and more bills to come. When rationing kicks in hte elderly will be denied healthcare (its coming deny it all you want) and eventually age restrictions will be implemented. Like I said this is not about providing you with healthcare. It never was about that.
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I've said that a few times already in this thread.
They don't understand that the Uninsured and the fiscally irresponsible still get their health care paid for. Do you think that money magically appears in the hospital's hands? No, your insurance company pays (ie higher co-pays or a greater weekly cost to you) higher costs to the hospital or the State in which you live reimburses the hospital (the State increases your taxes).
If you don't want everyone to have healthcare, you need to put a bullet in each of their heads when they come to the hospital without a method of paying for the service.
(I'm jesting with that last sentence, but no one ever gets turned away, regardless of money)
just an FYI.....i am uninsured. and my health care does indeed get paid. either in cash, or one of my business checks.
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Nor should they be Delirium.
You will come to understand this when you have to wait for the first time a period of fourteen months to see a doctor for the flu or a nasty cold that wont go away. In the meanwhile businesses will not be creating jobs because its too expensive to add employees because of this bill and more bills to come. When rationing kicks in hte elderly will be denied healthcare (its coming deny it all you want) and eventually age restrictions will be implemented. Like I said this is not about providing you with healthcare. It never was about that.
14 months?? Is your Doctor is on Mars??
I just ring our family GP in the morning to get an appointment, the Kids are free on medicare and because I work if I need to see the doc - I pay $30, but can go down to the local shopping centre and get my costs rebated on the spot from the medicare office. Public usually just means the govt pays the bills...just like they pay for roads, schools, the fire department, the police, the army, pensions etc etc using our taxes - just like their supposed to do ie. provide services
Tronsky
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govt pays the bills...just like they pay for
Umm...who do you think 'they' is?
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14 months?? Is your Doctor is on Mars??
I just ring our family GP in the morning to get an appointment, the Kids are free on medicare and because I work if I need to see the doc - I pay $30, but can go down to the local shopping centre and get my costs rebated on the spot from the medicare office. Public usually just means the govt pays the bills...just like they pay for roads, schools, the fire department, the police, the army, pensions etc etc using our taxes - just like their supposed to do ie. provide services
Tronsky
and where does the govt. get their money?
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stay focus guys don't get the thread locked, like it or not it is the law now so might s well use this thread to learn as much as we can about it and how it affect us.
Semp
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14 months?? Is your Doctor is on Mars??
I just ring our family GP in the morning to get an appointment, the Kids are free on medicare and because I work if I need to see the doc - I pay $30, but can go down to the local shopping centre and get my costs rebated on the spot from the medicare office. Public usually just means the govt pays the bills...just like they pay for roads, schools, the fire department, the police, the army, pensions etc etc using our taxes - just like their supposed to do ie. provide services
Tronsky
and where does the govt. get their money?
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just an FYI.....i am uninsured. and my health care does indeed get paid. either in cash, or one of my business checks.
That is why I wrote this;
They don't understand that the uninsured and the fiscally irresponsible still get their health care paid for.
Obviously, you're not indigent so that doesn't apply to you.
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You as an average person without the money to pay yourself for the care you receive will instead receive worse healthcare under the new system.
How do know? I haven't read the bill in its entirety, have you? Can you prove we will receive inadequate health care with this new system? No one really knows how this will play out in the end, including the other countries that currently have national health care since the US is so vastly different economically and in regards to our greater populace numbers.
The status quo isn't working, we need some kind of action. I'm not saying that this route is the best solution, but doing nothing is far worse.
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I know that its already costing me more. I had a prescription refilled a couiple of days ago that 3 months ago cost me $3.00. Now it cost me over $12.00.
Guess my company health insurance is gonna jump 4x as well.
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How do know? I haven't read the bill in its entirety, have you? Can you prove we will receive inadequate health care with this new system? No one really knows how this will play out in the end, including the other countries that currently have national health care since the US is so vastly different economically and in regards to our greater populace numbers.
The status quo isn't working, we need some kind of action. I'm not saying that this route is the best solution, but doing nothing is far worse.
Actually, the status quo is fine for 84% of us
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I have no copayments whatsoever. no doctor's, meds, nothing zilch, nada. my total cost is 150 bucks a month, I am lucky to have this insurance. On the other hand 9 years ago, i had no insurance, was unemployed, and spend 36 hours waiting at the er with pneumonia. that's right 36 hours, 1/2 the time I was passed out in the waiting room. I ended up having to go home without seeing a doctor.
I dont want no expensive insurance for the people that cannot afford it, or lucky enough that employers dont offer it, or anything more than what the leaders in our government consider fair to them. that includes, senators, reps, president, vice-president, etc. If it's good enough for them, its good enough for me and the rest of us.
semp
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I have no copayments whatsoever. no doctor's, meds, nothing zilch, nada. my total cost is 150 bucks a month, I am lucky to have this insurance. On the other hand 9 years ago, i had no insurance, was unemployed, and spend 36 hours waiting at the er with pneumonia. that's right 36 hours, 1/2 the time I was passed out in the waiting room. I ended up having to go home without seeing a doctor.
I dont want no expensive insurance for the people that cannot afford it, or lucky enough that employers dont offer it, or anything more than what the leaders in our government consider fair to them. that includes, senators, reps, president, vice-president, etc. If it's good enough for them, its good enough for me and the rest of us.
semp
i've been to the er twice that i can remember. once was for my broken wrist. was in in less than an hour.
the second time was when i sliced my arm open on a piece of aluminum. i waited for maybe 3 hours......but there were a lot of amberlamps coming in too.
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Wait... what? Wasn't this locked?
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Wait... what? Wasn't this locked?
mmmmmmuuuuAAAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHA
:noid :noid