Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Scenario General => Topic started by: SuBWaYCH on August 28, 2010, 08:01:12 PM
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Let us have one :pray
2 late war, 1 semi-late war scenarios in a row = time for an early war scenario
suggestions:
BoB'10
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Let us have one :pray
2 late war, 1 semi-late war scenarios in a row = time for an early war scenario
suggestions:
BoB'10
if you want early war ETO, you will like the next one ;)
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The next scenario is going to be 1942, around Operation Pedestal (during Siege of Malta). So, sort of early, at least. :)
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time to practice the 109F-4 :x
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Im calling a Spitfire Mk. 5 spot right now.
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time to practice the 109F-4 :x
There will be these as well:
(http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/images/faawildcatsba_2.jpg)
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There will be these as well:
(http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/images/faawildcatsba_2.jpg)
i remember you telling me that. after careful consideration however, a bunch of us allied command staff have agreed to stay together on one side (axis, i think). if we do go allied, i will definitely fly the Martlet :aok
but for now, im gonna fly the 109 :salute
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time to practice the 109F-4 :x
190A-5's too?! :x
Also, I agree, we should visit BoB again soon... no sence waiting around until the He-111 gets added since who knows when that'll be.
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Must have plane list.
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190A-5's too?! :x
talked to Brooke, i believe he said no 190's at the moment
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I don't think that any 190's were in the Siege of Malta or Operation Pedestal.
Things are not finalized yet. A very tentative list is:
Hurri IIC, Spit V, Seafire II, Marlet (F4F), Mosquito, Liberator, Boston III
109F, C.202 and/or C.205, 110C, Ju 88, Ju 87
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Numbers guys and I are still waiting for our rematch. :noid
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I'm down for the allies again, I'd like to bombers if not I'll throw up a Mossie.
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Sign Me up when is this one Going to Start!!!
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Im changing my plane to a Mossie!
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I don't think that any 190's were in the Siege of Malta or Operation Pedestal.
Things are not finalized yet. A very tentative list is:
Hurri IIC, Spit V, Seafire II, Marlet (F4F), Mosquito, Liberator, Boston III
109F, C.202 and/or C.205, 110C, Ju 88, Ju 87
Curious as to why the Mossie Brooke? Think they had one NF II on Malta, but the Mossie was never much of an MTO player.
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Fencer has them listed as 248 and 252 Sqn. I've seen references to 248 being at Malta and participating in portions of Operation Pedestal around August, 1942. Not sure about 252.
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Fencer has them listed as 248 and 252 Sqn. I've seen references to 248 being at Malta and participating in portions of Operation Pedestal around August, 1942. Not sure about 252.
252 Were Beaufighters. Oh to have Beaufighters for that one :) First Mossie on Malta was a Mk II on December 27, 1942 with 23 Squadron.
This is the OOB for Malta in October 42, after Pedestal. They had 4 Liberators flown in special for Pedestal and Park had roughly 250 birds with about half being Spitfires. Appears there were some RAF Marauders about though :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/OOB2.jpg)
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Ah, yes, Beaufighters in the Mediterranian. :aok
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I don't think that any 190's were in the Siege of Malta or Operation Pedestal.
Things are not finalized yet. A very tentative list is:
Hurri IIC, Spit V, Seafire II, Marlet (F4F), Mosquito, Liberator, Boston III
109F, C.202 and/or C.205, 110C, Ju 88, Ju 87
I SMELL A RAT! :huh (No 190A-5 stretch, no Hurri-II stretch then)
They were mostly Hurri Is in malta, resuplied with very very few IIcs, mostly Spit Vs were all they had left flying outa Malta in 42. Should be Hurri Is and Spit Vs from Malta, unless you're thinking about adding a full squadron of 190A-5s along with each squadron of Hurri-IIcs. :devil
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Fear the Ju-88s!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/MV_Brisbane_Star_Front.jpg)
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I SMELL A RAT! :huh (No 190A-5 stretch, no Hurri-II stretch then)
They were mostly Hurri Is in malta, resuplied with very very few IIcs, mostly Spit Vs were all they had left flying outa Malta in 42. Should be Hurri Is and Spit Vs from Malta, unless you're thinking about adding a full squadron of 190A-5s along with each squadron of Hurri-IIcs. :devil
I believe the man said "tentative". The original "Fire Over Malta" had Hurricane IICs.
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Sign me up for No. 830 sqd. please. :D see Guppys post :banana:
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Oooh, I can't decide between the lovely Boston III, the C.2s, and the 110C. Sorry Strokes, I've put my time in on the Mossie, and I wish to never fly her against 109s again.
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Looks great! got any idea as to when this will be put into action?
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Seems we're bending history a bit here. Allies get mossie and hurii IIC?
I demand teh 190A5 an' teh 109G2'z :noid!!!!!
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Seems we're bending history a bit here. Allies get mossie and hurii IIC?
I demand teh 190A5 an' teh 109G2'z :noid!!!!!
Patience now,... teh wheelez has been putz in motions. :D
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We are still doing research, folks. If planes end up in the setup once we are done, rest assured that they will be in there either because they were actually there or because they are the best substitute for a plane that was actually there.
Except we'll put in the 109G-14, the 109K-4, the 190D-9, the Me 262, and Tiger tanks in an effort to pacify Nemesis. ;)
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We are still doing research, folks. If planes end up in the setup once we are done, rest assured that they will be in there either because they were actually there or because they are the best substitute for a plane that was actually there.
Except we'll put in the 109G-14, the 109K-4, the 190D-9, the Me 262, and Tiger tanks in an effort to pacify Nemesis. ;)
lol :rofl. 109G-2, 190A5, 262, and Tiger will suffice. Oh, and if you could field mod my tiger to have an additional 150mm fronal armor, replace its current engine with that of the 262, and swap out the KwK 36 L'43 for a KwK 43 L'71, then that would be great :D.
Only reason I asked is that since the first mossie arrived in december of '42, and the 109G2 saw a bit of use in '42, and that it isn't TOO great of a stretch to sub a 190A5 for a 190A1.
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Only reason I asked is that since the first mossie arrived in december of '42, and the 109G2 saw a bit of use in '42, and that it isn't TOO great of a stretch to sub a 190A5 for a 190A1.
Did the same guy who wrote that... write this?
There does seem to be some issues in implementation of scenarios though. This could be a perceived issue, caused by the substitutions for planes and GV's we don't have.
The mossie was in the original writeup I did (back in 2008) as a substitute for the Beaufighter. It is out of the OOB at this time. IF we get the Beaufighter before the event runs, we will look at adding it.
We are merging Nefari's "Fire over Malta" with a new scenario based around the Pedestal Convoy of August 1942... a 3 day battle coincidently.
There were no 190As involved in the fighting in July and August 1942 over Malta and Sicily.
The planes we are looking at substitutes for are the Fairy Fulmer, the Wellington and the Sea Hurricane (with and without cannons). The Axis are good to go with their planeset, although some C79s and HE111s would be a nice addition if they show up.
I am curious if people would consider flying the Hurricane IIC from carriers with the difficulty in landing without a tail hook.
As always thanks for the interest.
Cheers
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I SMELL A RAT! :huh (No 190A-5 stretch, no Hurri-II stretch then)
They were mostly Hurri Is in malta, resuplied with very very few IIcs, mostly Spit Vs were all they had left flying outa Malta in 42. Should be Hurri Is and Spit Vs from Malta, unless you're thinking about adding a full squadron of 190A-5s along with each squadron of Hurri-IIcs. :devil
You are thinking 1941 for the Hurri Is on Malta. The Hurri IIB and IIC were the 1942 birds in the MTO with some IID thrown in. Obviously the majority of fighters on Malta by 42 were Spitfire Vc.
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Oh, and if you could field mod my tiger to have
Well, actually, we worked it out with HTC to put in the little-known Sea Tiger. Just as there were naval versions of various aircraft such as the Sea Hurricane and the Seafire, there was the Sea Tiger -- basically an amphibious Tiger tank with a speed in the water of about 45 knots. It also had a tail hook for some obscure reason. ;)
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I don't think that any 190's were in the Siege of Malta or Operation Pedestal.
Things are not finalized yet. A very tentative list is:
Hurri IIC, Spit V, Seafire II, Marlet (F4F), Mosquito, Liberator, Boston III
109F, C.202 and/or C.205, 110C, Ju 88, Ju 87
Eliminate the C.205's. They didn't even start hitting Operational Status until Feb or March of 1943 IIRC. Pedestal was in August of 42, keep it close to accurate.
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I am curious if people would consider flying the Hurricane IIC from carriers with the difficulty in landing without a tail hook.
I'll give it a shot. If the Phandango was any indication, I'll be dead before i can pull the trigger. Never mind dropping the hook. :D
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If I can land a B-25 on a CV, rearm it, and get it back in the air, then the Hurri IIC pilots should be able to opperate them from a CV.
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Eliminate the C.205's. They didn't even start hitting Operational Status until Feb or March of 1943 IIRC. Pedestal was in August of 42, keep it close to accurate.
205s were in "Fire over Malta" and will not be in this scenario as you pointed out, they were not deployed.
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I hope there's a major tweaking of the setup rules...
Last time you got 1 life in a 109F... If you lost the plane you were stuck in a 109E the entire rest of the frame.
Only problem is, new AH update, new terrain, new 109F graphical update... Some sort of glitch made 90% of all 109s hotpadding at a single field (we had about 20-30 of us on the taxiways) stutter just as we were about to touch down.
Not on the way in, not on final, only as we were about to touch down *WHAM* we all dinged props (at different times). Decent 109 pilots, too. Not MA newbies. Folks that new how to fly.
So the end result is that 90%+ of the axis were flying 109Es against SpitVs and Hurr2Cs, all of which mercilessly pounced on us from well above and major numbers advantages.
It was wholly unbalanced after that bug removed the 109Fs from the frame.*
* = I think this was frame 1. I was a walkon for 2 out of the 4 frames.
P.S. As general note (some of you probably already know) our Seafire has an identical speed chart to the SpitV, just has 2x the cannon ammo and a little extra weight for the tail hook.
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No 109Es are planned to be included.
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How bout a Brewster :D Im just kiddin. Man just in the works and Im already excited. :banana: :bolt:
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How bout a Brewster :D Im just kiddin.
Nemesis's Sea Tiger has a Brewster launch rack.
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So, the Sea Tigers in this scenario will have been captured by the Allies and thus carry brewsters?
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So, the Sea Tigers in this scenario will have been captured by the Allies and thus carry brewsters?
No, Germany had a pact with the Finns to get Brewsters via the Finland->Bermuda Triangle->Morocco->Algergeria supply route. In fact, the common explanation of the reason for Operation Torch was merely a ruse -- the real reason was to sever this supply line of Brewsters for use on Sea Tigers.
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the 262 was present for this right?
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Don't wory Vudu, I'll be happy to carry a squadron of airsupport with me. Just be on the look out for bomb carrying planes so I can get you up in time to escape the blast radius.
And Brooke, have our engineers worked out the kinks with the death ray, or am I going to have to use the lazer cannon for this one?
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No, Germany had a pact with the Finns to get Brewsters via the Finland->Bermuda Triangle->Morocco->Algergeria supply route. In fact, the common explanation of the reason for Operation Torch was merely a ruse -- the real reason was to sever this supply line of Brewsters for use on Sea Tigers.
Look.. I cannot keep up with all these changes to the OOB. So are the Sea Tigers WITH or WITHOUT brewsters.. and did you decide on the AR234s...
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My Sea Tiger is equipped with a brewster squadron. We have a stock pile large enough to last us up through January of '44 , assuming combat losses of 3 per week. Unfortunatly, we only have enough sidewinders to last us till mid October, so after that the brewsters will have to rely on their 20mm gattling guns to get kills. Still haven't heard any news as to the avaliablity of 262 engines for them though.
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Well I guess the mere metion of Brewsters sends everyone into left field.......my bad. :devil
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Well I guess the mere metion of Brewsters sends everyone into left field.......my bad. :devil
It's OK. We can blame it all on Nemesis. ;)
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Brooke is right, I kind of derailed the thread, but its your fault for playing along. Brooke and his damn Sea Tiger.....
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P38G would be out of the question correct? :(
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Brooke and his damn Sea Tiger.....
Heh! :aok
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P38G would be out of the question correct? :(
There weren't any in Siege of Malta, but the scenario after that will have P-38's.
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There weren't any in Siege of Malta, but the scenario after that will have P-38's.
Hmmmm..... now I have to decide what I should fly.
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Hmmmm..... now I have to decide what I should fly.
How about the Sea Tiger? :)
Actually, here is what the plane set is looking like so far (still preliminary).
-- Spit V, F4F-4 (Martlet), Seafire II and/or Hurri II as a Sea Hurricane, Boston III, B-24J.
-- Bf 109F-4, Bf 110C-4b, C.202, Ju 88A-4, Ju 87D-3.
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How about the Sea Tiger? :)
Actually, here is what the plane set is looking like so far (still preliminary).
-- Spit V, F4F-4 (Martlet), Seafire II and/or Hurri II as a Sea Hurricane, Boston III, B-24J.
-- Bf 109F-4, Bf 110C-4b, C.202, Ju 88A-4, Ju 87D-3.
Hmm...Sounds like AvA with these planes aside from spits and bombers....guess i know the best spot to practice :D :joystick:
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One correction. B-25's (as Wellingtons) will be used in place of the Bostons.
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While the Sea Hurricane Mk.ICs used at the time of this operation had 4x 20mm cannon in the wings, they were built off of war-weary Mk.I airframes and had Merlin III engines. They had those engines' boost increased, but still they were Merlin III's.
Putting in a Hurr2C would be significantly more powerful, performance wise.
The question you have to ask is do you want to match the guns in the wings? Or how those wings fly and fight? Because you match a Hurr2C up to a Hurr1A and it's way way more powerful (especially in dives). With the liberal way the Hurricanes and 110s perform in BOB and other early scenarios, one might lean on the side of "Put the Mk.I in" and still be better off than you might think.
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One also has to consider that the Axis has all JU88s for their bombers, rather than the HE111s, S79s and other Italian birds.
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Very true, but spit5s and seafires (spit5s with 240 rounds) can be quite potent against Ju88s as we learned in the 4th frame of BOB'06 (was it '06 or '08? The what-if frame). Give them Spit5s and hurr2cs and it seems quite the jaws to send those poor Ju88s into. F4Fs are no slouch for hunting bombers, either (as long as they can catch 'em, that is).
Balance wise, you have C2s which I love but will be mostly ineffective (guns package), 110Cs which will be dogmeat up against Spit5s and hurr2s, and the 109F, which will be somewhat capable but outnumbered by better turning planes or planes with more cannons.
Don't get me wrong, I can see it working both ways, but I'm thinking the balance is tilted towards the allies if the hurr2c is thrown in there.
Food for thought, that's all.
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I think that equally we have to look at the armaments and performance.
The 8 .303's will tear a plane apart if they get anywhere in D200, they are also relatively good against the weak Ju88's if they have altitude. On the flip side, the 109F and 110C are really the only "heavy hitters" the LW has in terms of killing bombers (B24s). The 110C has 2 cannons but they are less the effective outside of D500. The 109F can kill them but with the expense of lost planes to radiator hits and engine leaks.
IMHO I would give the RAF the Hurricane Mk. 1 and a mix of a small amount of Hurricane Mk. 2-c. I think this would balance things out.
As for performance, the 110C, C.202 and 109F will be able to out preform the 2c at most altitudes. (correct me if im wrong) I think that this mix of 1's and 2-c's would not take away from the scenario. As we would like to be able to use all the plane that there were in WWII, this is a game and we have to make it playable from the players perspective.
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While in the BOB setup the 110C can out-run the Hurr1 at a whim, a great deal of this is diving and zoom-climbing. The Hurr1 (if flown gently) can be competitive in climbs but overall the 110C outclasses it. The Hurr2C is almost 20mph faster, hugs the speed curve of the 110C much more closely (preventing the 110C from escaping the 4x hispanos) and can dive and zoom climb with the 110 til kingdom come.
Naturally not every engagement will be so cut and dried, so clinically described. However the hurr2c doesn't leave the 110C the last refuge it had against the Mk.I: that ability to dive, zoom, or just run away.
And that's not a "wrong" thing either... it just has to be heavily weighed in regards to how you want the scenario to play out.
P.S. Ooooh, I wish we had a 109E-7/trop, maybe a E-7/z!
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It seems that Stroke's solution of having mostly Hurricane Mk I's with some IIC's mixed in is a good idea. Perhaps have each group rotate through the IIC so we don't have people in planes that aren't even that much faster than a Ju-88, armed with the equievelant of 2 .50's.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems the Mossie has a significant preformance advantage over the beaufighter its substituting for. I'm wondring if there is any way we can reduce the impact this will have on the scenario, as the 109F (the fastest axis plane in the scenario) will have a hard time catching it on the deck, and it is a much better diver than the 109.
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Nemisis.. do you actually read anything anyone posts?
The mossie was in the original writeup I did (back in 2008) as a substitute for the Beaufighter. It is out of the OOB at this time. IF we get the Beaufighter before the event runs, we will look at adding it.
We are merging Nefari's "Fire over Malta" with a new scenario based around the Pedestal Convoy of August 1942... a 3 day battle coincidently.
There were no 190As involved in the fighting in July and August 1942 over Malta and Sicily.
The planes we are looking at substitutes for are the Fairy Fulmer, the Wellington and the Sea Hurricane (with and without cannons). The Axis are good to go with their planeset, although some C79s and HE111s would be a nice addition if they show up.
I am curious if people would consider flying the Hurricane IIC from carriers with the difficulty in landing without a tail hook.
As always thanks for the interest.
Cheers
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Nemisis.. do you actually read anything anyone posts?
I'm kinda thinking it might be time for Nem to design one. And no I think he's missing what's been posted :)
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You mention "A 3 day battle, coincidentally" -- does that mean this is only 3 frames rather than traditional 4?
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You mention "A 3 day battle, coincidentally" -- does that mean this is only 3 frames rather than traditional 4?
I think this part of the battle lasted 3 days, still four frames I would presume. Correct me if im wrong.
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Sorry about that, I guess I skipped over the mossie part, because I remember the rest.
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205s were in "Fire over Malta" and will not be in this scenario as you pointed out, they were not deployed.
202s were used in FOM, No 205s were used.
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202s were used in FOM, No 205s were used.
Ah my fault, I had assumed Brooke put them in because they were in the design.. I guess he was just throwing Italians at the OOB. :)
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Where will the Axis precisely be based out of BTW? I'm trying to dig up 190 info for the theatre but it's sketchy. For now I'd err on the side of not having 190s because they may not of been in the warm mediteranian that soon, the early '42 models were known for having the engine too close to the cockpit, making temperatures in the cokcpit, over Germany, reach a cozy 130 degrees on average. The problem wasn't corrected on the production lines and by an issued field mod order to crews until about mid '42 and the time of our scenario... so it's possible because there were some 190s in sicily I think at the time, but do you really want a bunch of naked 190 drivers half-hanging out of their cockpit in the skies this scenario? Also I think I ran across something that said there were some c.202s involved with the Malta region at the time, I'll need to dig up it's citation.
It seems that Stroke's solution of having mostly Hurricane Mk I's with some IIC's mixed in is a good idea. Perhaps have each group rotate through the IIC so we don't have people in planes that aren't even that much faster than a Ju-88, armed with the equievelant of 2 .50's.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems the Mossie has a significant preformance advantage over the beaufighter its substituting for. I'm wondring if there is any way we can reduce the impact this will have on the scenario, as the 109F (the fastest axis plane in the scenario) will have a hard time catching it on the deck, and it is a much better diver than the 109.
I'll agree, that's a good idea. At the very most for the IIc, for every four Hurri dirvers, there is one IIc to be rotated amongst those drivers so that each pilot gets the oportunity to fly it for one frame, and only one frame. It's probabley not historicaly accurate, and maybe a little imbalanced, but it could be very possible if we allow a similar roation of a single G-2 amongst every four 109F drivers.
Another alternative if we want to avoid any confusion or conflict (but will seem a bit odd if this scenario is one where the next frame is determined by the outcome of the previous frame), for frame 4 we switchout all the Hurri Is and 109Fs for IIcs and G-2s.... maybe switchout some or all of the Stukas with 190A-5s.
Just an idea, I'd personaly rather see a solid aircraft lineup maintained through all four frames. Newer, faster, badder toys are always cool, but I think everyone might have more fun across the board if we aim for using only the low-end aircraft rather than the high.
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There were no 190As involved in the fighting in July and August 1942 over Malta and Sicily.
As always thanks for the interest.
Cheers
Babalonian, thanks for the interest and the drive to do some digging into the records. We have a full OOB at this time. There were definately 202s involved and they will be present.
If you are interested in the battles around Malta, I suggest you locate a copy of "Malta: The Spitfire Year 1942" by Christopher Shores - ISBN-10: 094881716X at 704 pages it is chocked full of good reading and useful data.
Cheers
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I'm not sure on this, but that MAY have been a typo. I have the feeling that he meant the C205, but I may be wrong.
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Instead of throwing in 2c's with I's in the same unit but different people. Give them a 6 man squadron.
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This is extremely stupid, F4U-1 didn't serve in Malta did it? :pray
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Nem: C205 is a 1943 plane. This is a 1942 setup. He said 202, he meant 202.
Stokes, No. What WAS was the F4F4, the Wildcat, aka the "Martlet" in RAF service. Closest you will get but still quite capable, compared to the planeset in question.
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Instead of throwing in 2c's with I's in the same unit but different people. Give them a 6 man squadron.
The Hurri I drivers for real knew they were out of the fight essentially when the 109F showed up in 1941. To throw guys in Hurri I's seems pointless other then to appease the Axis drivers. IIB and IIC were the order of the day. Plenty of photos of Mersailles standing next to IIB and IIC Hurri's he'd downed.
The only 190s that showed up in the MTO were 190F2 fighter bombers that made it to Tunisia for a time at the end of 42 and into 43. They were not involved in anything to do with Malta.
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The seahurricane was a hurri I with 20mm cannons thrown into the wings apparently. It seems like that is pleny of reason to have a mixed assortment of hurricanes. Just have the groups listed as flying hurricanes, and don't state the model, so you can rotate groups through the IIC.
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Babalonian, thanks for the interest and the drive to do some digging into the records. We have a full OOB at this time. There were definately 202s involved and they will be present.
If you are interested in the battles around Malta, I suggest you locate a copy of "Malta: The Spitfire Year 1942" by Christopher Shores - ISBN-10: 094881716X at 704 pages it is chocked full of good reading and useful data.
Cheers
No problem... figured ya can't blame me for trying to justify a 190 in the OOB. :D Glad the 202 made it in.
I'll add that book to my list of books to look into, thanks.
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The Hurri I drivers for real knew they were out of the fight essentially when the 109F showed up in 1941. To throw guys in Hurri I's seems pointless other then to appease the Axis drivers. IIB and IIC were the order of the day. Plenty of photos of Mersailles standing next to IIB and IIC Hurri's he'd downed.
The only 190s that showed up in the MTO were 190F2 fighter bombers that made it to Tunisia for a time at the end of 42 and into 43. They were not involved in anything to do with Malta.
Not trying to throw pilots into sitting ducks here for the amusement of their enemy, I just want the pretty or ugly truth and for our scenario to be close to it.
I'd love to pour through any documentation though of what Hurri units were operating what out there at the time if you can point me to some. If there were a few or many squads in the region operating IIcs on the dates in question, then so be it, but I simply haven't stumbled across it yet. If I recall correctly, I did find something that said there was a few (the first) IIcs flown/delivered to Malta in the spring of '42, but it also mentioned that they were only ever able to get a few out of those (as well as their older Hurri-Is) air-ready and managing to keep them as such during the seige and the time of our scenario until more arrived later that year, forcing the Hurri drivers there to make due with anything they had until then.
I'd also (and most of all) would love to read through your source for the 190F2s that made it out to Tunisia in late '42. I wholeheartedly believe and agree with you and the statement as it makes sence and adds up to what I was able to find... I'm just hungry for this information, kind of some closure for me, as I wasn't able to find it or anything of substinance on "The 190s Germany sent to the mediteranian and north african theatre in 1942 and 1943" in the last couple days.
The seahurricane was a hurri I with 20mm cannons thrown into the wings apparently. It seems like that is pleny of reason to have a mixed assortment of hurricanes. Just have the groups listed as flying hurricanes, and don't state the model, so you can rotate groups through the IIC.
A valid point with the Sea-Hurri, and Fencer mentioned chewing over the thought of launching and landing Hurri IIcs of carriers if pilots were up to the challenge. However someone else further up in this thread pointed out the Seafires over Malta at the time came in both cannon-armed and non-cannon varients (the later is something AH doesn't currently have in the plane set).
I want to make it clear I'm on no campaign here to exclude the IIc, simply have a historic and balanced representation of them (and the Hurri-I) in our scenario.
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The only reason the Hurricane IIC is being considered is that there were carrier based Hurricanes and some of them had cannons. There were no land based Hurricanes involved in the July-August 1942 time frame at Malta.
I did point you toward some.. hence the book reference. :)
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babalonion, my comment was directed at guppy, in response to his statment that having hurri I's would be pointless other than to appease axis pilots. I was saying that since the two aircraft fly and fight differently asside from the armament, that the only fair thing to to would be to have a mix of the two models in the scenario.
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The Hurri I drivers for real knew they were out of the fight essentially when the 109F showed up in 1941. To throw guys in Hurri I's seems pointless other then to appease the Axis drivers. IIB and IIC were the order of the day.
The hurricane was out of the fight after the BOB, and everybody knew it. They moved it to second-line units, ground attack, etc. The problem is that in the real world it wasn't so... shall we say "effective"... as it is modeled in Aces High. In this game it has the potential to dominate planes "superior" (on paper) to it. The hizookas and the almost flawless flight characteristics coupled with the ahistorically fast rate of roll make it a platform that can take out even 109Fs, especially if given freely in large numbers.
I agree that the Hurr1 was out of the picture, but it technically wasnt, since sea hurricanes were war-weary airframes, based off Hurr1s. The Sea Hurricane IIC was a Hurr1 airframe with the wing guns changed out, but it still had the Merlin III engine.
The problem is we really don't have one of these in AH, and only about 400 .303-armed Sea Hurricanes, and about 400 20mm-armed ones, were produced in total. It wasn't very common in the overall war.
With all of these comments in mind, I suggested erring on the side of caution rather than on the side that might tilt things towards the allied planeset.
P.S. I'll repeat, "Oh, I wish we had an E-7!!!" (*looks around to see if HTC noticed*)
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Not trying to throw pilots into sitting ducks here for the amusement of their enemy, I just want the pretty or ugly truth and for our scenario to be close to it.
I'd love to pour through any documentation though of what Hurri units were operating what out there at the time if you can point me to some. If there were a few or many squads in the region operating IIcs on the dates in question, then so be it, but I simply haven't stumbled across it yet. If I recall correctly, I did find something that said there was a few (the first) IIcs flown/delivered to Malta in the spring of '42, but it also mentioned that they were only ever able to get a few out of those (as well as their older Hurri-Is) air-ready and managing to keep them as such during the seige and the time of our scenario until more arrived later that year, forcing the Hurri drivers there to make due with anything they had until then.
I'd also (and most of all) would love to read through your source for the 190F2s that made it out to Tunisia in late '42. I wholeheartedly believe and agree with you and the statement as it makes sence and adds up to what I was able to find... I'm just hungry for this information, kind of some closure for me, as I wasn't able to find it or anything of substinance on "The 190s Germany sent to the mediteranian and north african theatre in 1942 and 1943" in the last couple days.
A valid point with the Sea-Hurri, and Fencer mentioned chewing over the thought of launching and landing Hurri IIcs of carriers if pilots were up to the challenge. However someone else further up in this thread pointed out the Seafires over Malta at the time came in both cannon-armed and non-cannon varients (the later is something AH doesn't currently have in the plane set).
I want to make it clear I'm on no campaign here to exclude the IIc, simply have a historic and balanced representation of them (and the Hurri-I) in our scenario.
190s were II/JG2 and were the first 190s in action. They were sent back to France in March 43 after losing 18 aircraft and claiming 150. II/SG2 had 109F1 and suffered crippling losses during the Allied invasion of Sicily.
As for the Hurri units in the MTO October 42 order of battle
6.7 SAAF Hurri IID
73 Squadron Hurri IIC
80, 127, 335 Squadrons Hurri IIB
274 Squadron Hurri IIC
1 SAAF, 33, 213, 238 Squadrons Hurri IIC
40 SAAF, 208 Squadron Hurri IIB
889 FAA Squadron Hurri IIC
94 Squadron Hurri IIB
417 Squadron Hurri IIB
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Did someone say B25C Wellington?!? :D
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it isn't TOO great of a stretch to sub a 190A5 for a 190A1.
pretty big stretch
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no worse than using the mossie for a beaufighter would be.
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no worse than using the mossie for a beaufighter would be.
That's why were not doing it.
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There's no real way a 190A5 fills in for an A-1. Not to mention you don't HAVE to put every last plane into a setup. If you were to do it proportionally, you'd get between zero and one Fw190s to make up the proper ratio of 190s in service at the time, compared to other craft.
It doesn't fit, no need to push the issue.
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no worse than using the mossie for a beaufighter would be.
For the third time, we are not using the Mossie.
Yet using the mossie for the beau would be subbing a plane for a plane that was actually there. There were NO Fws in the fighting over Malta or in the Med in August 1942.
Let it go, and raise your post count elsewhere.
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No, no, you misunderstand me. I'm saying that were mossies going to be included in the scenario, the 190A5 would fill in for the 190A1 about as well as the mossie would have filled in for the beaufighter. I'm ready to let that whole part of the thread die if we could stop dredging the bottom.
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I'm saying that were mossies going to be included in the scenario.
There are no mossies, there never will be.
the 190A5 would fill in for the 190A1
190A1 did not see service over Malta durring Operation Pedestal, so no Fw 190A5, looks like you will have to find another favorite plane.
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Just can't drop it can you? I KNOW the mossie won't be in the scenario, hence the "WOULD HAVE" in the stament "...would have filled in for the beaufighter."
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Were not going to get either planes, I was looking forward to maybe flying a mosquito, but they have been taken off the plane set. You don't see me complaining about it, you drop it cause were not getting either. My previous post sums it all up.
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I just found this funny am an not passing judgment on anybody.
(http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/upload/2009/08/neener-neener-neener.jpeg)
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Were not going to get either planes, I was looking forward to maybe flying a mosquito, but they have been taken off the plane set. You don't see me complaining about it, you drop it cause were not getting either. My previous post sums it all up.
We should fly 110C's then. I mean, 109s are going to fill up, and who wants to be in a 88? Especially when there is a 110 to fly! Oooh, or a C.202...
Too many choices! :uhoh
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We should fly 110C's then. I mean, 109s are going to fill up, and who wants to be in a 88? Especially when there is a 110 to fly! Oooh, or a C.202...
Too many choices! :uhoh
I still haven't chosen a side. :rolleyes:
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I still haven't chosen a side. :rolleyes:
I know, but I feel pity for the Axis with their lesser numbers. Besides, the only Allied fighter of worth is the Boston III.
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Spit Mk. V is the biggest threat to us!
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190s were II/JG2 and were the first 190s in action. They were sent back to France in March 43 after losing 18 aircraft and claiming 150. II/SG2 had 109F1 and suffered crippling losses during the Allied invasion of Sicily.
As for the Hurri units in the MTO October 42 order of battle
6.7 SAAF Hurri IID
73 Squadron Hurri IIC
80, 127, 335 Squadrons Hurri IIB
274 Squadron Hurri IIC
1 SAAF, 33, 213, 238 Squadrons Hurri IIC
40 SAAF, 208 Squadron Hurri IIB
889 FAA Squadron Hurri IIC
94 Squadron Hurri IIB
417 Squadron Hurri IIB
Ooohhh... a Hurri IID squad! And I'm assuming off the ball here that the IIBs are the .303 variant of the Hurri II? Thanks for the II/JG2 info (and your book suggestion Fencer). I've got enough info to go on here to keep me busy reading in my freetime for the next day or two! :salute
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Yeah Babalonian, the IIB was a mk II variant armed with 12 .303's (about 3 .50's worth of punch for comparision).
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im still pulling for a GL spot in 109Fs
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who do we need to talk to about GL slot or is that even an option this early? :D
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GL's have in the past been chosen by the CO's, which aren't in place yet.
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The very rough list:
1) Decide on a scenario and setup (they're 'bout done with this part)
2) Decide on tentative dates (probably throwing them around internally right now)
3) Decide/Sucker on some brave country COs (coming up soon)
4) Finalize the setup and rules (still a few weeks in the making and down the road)
5) Open Registration
6) Decide on GLs and pilot/driver assignments.
7) Decide on overall and individual strategies.
8) Beta frame
9) Finalize GLs, pilot assignments and overall and individual strategies for the scenario.
I'm erring twords the axis with the German Iron per usual. But I'm gonna probably wait to see the plane set and who registers for what first, opting more for the pilots I'll be flying with this scenario rather than the mission or plane we'll be flying. The 109F is a great plane and one of my favorite 109s... but overall I'm not a huge 109 buff so I might lug around some ord for this one (lord help my team, my dive bombing aim is trash atm).
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I'm probably going to sign up for a 109F, seeing as there is no 190's, and brooke cut out the SeaTiger :cry. But, shockingly, I'm concidering signing up as an '88 in this one.
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I've heard rumors of the B25 Wellington being in this event, however, I'm still deciding if I want to fly or take a break.
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thanks for the info guys :aok just have to hang out fora bit :D
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I'm probably going to sign up for a 109F, seeing as there is no 190's, and brooke cut out the SeaTiger :cry. But, shockingly, I'm concidering signing up as an '88 in this one.
i coulda sworn you were going to fly the martlet :rolleyes:
kinda why im not flying it this time around :lol kidding
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lol, you dick :lol. I'm thinking about the martlet as my ride if I fly for the allies, but I think I'll give the axis one more chance (at least untill we get a setup featuring Panzer III's, or the SdKfz 252/22. I'd love to be in command of one of the tank destroyer battalions, scuttling around in SdKfz's.