Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Muzzy on August 30, 2010, 08:12:06 PM
-
Okay, I'm still trying to get a handle on flying high-speed aircraft in the MA. Here's what I'm having trouble with:
I understand that the basic strategy is to come in with alt, dive down on a target, take a quick shot, then extend away, reverse, and repeat.
1. My targets always turn away making a shot impossible.
2. I'm having trouble reversing quickly in the FW A8 that I'm flying.
Could somebody also explain the difference between bnz and slashing tactics? I'm having trouble understanding it. :headscratch:
-
I think you're confusing bnz tactics with a bounce. A bounce, or slash if you'd rather is just a pass and extend. For instance, in a big furball, you come through with alt and speed, slash through the middle taking shots at whatever you can without turning any amount to speak of. When you get through, keep going and re-alt before coming back. A bounce is the same thing, but only on one plane.
B n Z, or bounce and zoom (or boom and zoom if you like) is actually a more aggressive style of fighting you can use if you have a guy corralled and have alt on him. You make a diving pass, then pull up and zoom away. BUT! You don't zoom far away, keep close to the bad guy, 1.5k to 2k at most. As you dive, use your roll to track his turn, you can roll much faster than he can turn. Make another pass, and do the same thing, zoom away and reverse to dive on him again. The idea is to make him keep turning in the horizontal as much as possible while you are rolling in the vertical. That way he's burning E much faster than you are. Before too long, he won't have enough E to keep evading your passes and you'll hit him as you pass.
-
Very helpful...thanks much....but can you clarify on the following:
"As you dive, use your roll to track his turn, you can roll much faster than he can turn."
Also, how do you reverse in the FW, which has no turn?
-
Let me ask you a rhetorical question... how does an airplane normally turn?
The answer is, you point your lift vector where you want the aircraft to go, and then apply up elevator. (Excluding skids which aren't very effective or energy efficient.)
Imagine you are zooming, as in going straight up after taking your shot. Can you roll the aircraft so that your lift vector is pointed where ever you want? Of course you can... And how much (more) energy does it cost you to roll the aircraft some direction as compared to not? Very little. And how fast can you roll the aircraft compared to how fast a slower aircraft can turn a flat circle?? Much faster! So...
As you zoom, roll the aircraft to point your lift vector to wherever you want to go next, and then pull. As you are already zooming, it's the most efficient way to turn a heavy, poor turning aircraft. In fact, it's the most energy efficient way to rapidly change course in a heavily wingloaded aircraft, even if you are not in the middle of a BnZ fight.
<S>
-
I think it was either Ack-Ack or Fugitive which had a really good img. which explained it step by step.
A basic BnZ is where you gain alt on your opponent, swoop down, fire a burst if he doesn't turn. If he does, pull up, find him and swoop down again. With more experienced pilots they will often start a rolling scissors in which case it is best for you to extend and escape. A P-47 is not the scissoring type.
Just my take on it, then again I haven't really played for months...
-
Ghastly is exactly right. If you're diving nose downward at a plane, and he's break turning to avoid your bounce. To follow him through his turn, since you're nose down, you just roll in that direction. Like he said, roll to keep your lift vector on his plane. The point here is that you don't want to be turning much at all. You want to force him to turn, while you just roll to track. As you flatten out and get into range, as he breaks away hard, you don't follow the turn, you go back up. He's burned much more E than you.
-
Here's a film (http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/7a65cee8d8_3.45MB). In the first minute I bounce a B24, just dive in and hit them and blow out the other side. At about the 2 minute mark I make a pass on a P47. You can see the the lead pulled by rolling and pulling Gs to get the lead by using the "lift vector" mentioned here.
For the most part the rest of the film is a BnZ fight...and a lazy one at that. I wasn't very aggressive, tho you can see I don't get outside 2k on the 190. I keep my speed up as well as the alt advantage as the 190 slowly looses both. Once I close hard on him it was just a matter of time until even my poor aim got him.
Alas, sigh... I didn't have the time as we see the Knight horde go after me and finish me off. That horde is the type of flying that is killing game play. What was the forth and filth guy thinking when they joined in? Ahhh well.
I hope the film helps you to see what everyone is talking about.
-
Okay, I'm still trying to get a handle on flying high-speed aircraft in the MA. Here's what I'm having trouble with:
I understand that the basic strategy is to come in with alt, dive down on a target, take a quick shot, then extend away, reverse, and repeat.
This part you have correct
1. My targets always turn away making a shot impossible.
The "trick" to learn is reading the enemy icons. Assuming there are multiple enemy below you and you are closing into the "furball" area, start looking at the icons. Pay attention to the numbers indicating your distance. Attempt to close to an enemy where the distance is decreasing. Use zoom for short periods to determine the angle of the plane.
Many will turn early, some will wait and break at the last second, others will pull up or spit S.
In the beggining..where you are now it will be difficult to construct a shooting angle that allows you to close into the turn where you get close enough to make a passing angle shot. Sometimes it will be very close, other times you will only get a d600 or so shot before the shot window is closed.
The best way is to get your nose down EARLY then pull up into the crossing shot. NOT late where you have to roll inverted or take a blind shot under the nose.
When there are slower friendly around break turning lower than you the enemy will always go for them. This is the perfect set up. If you pay close attention to the range of the enemy icons you can often close into the enemy without being detected.
Often you will make a pass on as many as 5 or more and all of them will be turning into you...just keep trucking...extend and come around for another pass. You may have to make 3, 4 , 5 or more before you get a good shot....PATIENCE is the key.
2. I'm having trouble reversing quickly in the FW A8 that I'm flying.
You should not try to "reverse" on them....ONLY create a closing crossing shot. The best way is to keep your plane fast...300 to 350...after the pass nose up to 2k of climb and extend. If you go verticle on a missed shot you WILL get caught by another enemy.
Sometimes you can get more than one shot depending on the enemy speed and where they are heading. DO NOT turn back into the furball to chase. Always keep your diving attack at an off angle form the enemy pack. If you do go through the middle make sure you plan the exit coming out AWAY from the base/enemy pack.
Could somebody also explain the difference between bnz and slashing tactics? I'm having trouble understanding it. :headscratch:
I am speaking here in terms of OFFENSIVE gun passes. BnZ is more of a 1 on 2 type of combat. Slashing is just 400 mph strait throug taking targets of oppurtunity and extending off.
The correct way is to LEARN TO READ THE FURBALL....looking for icons that match a profile that allow you to close before they can make an evasive move...many will get check 6 and see you coming...but even these can be targets if you have the right angle and closing speed.
And remember.....nose low way early...easy pull up early and take a zero G shot...this is the key...ZERO G shot.
-
just PM me inside the game Muzzy, under Joachim. I'll help you w/ this BnZ stuff.
-
Guys thanks so much...this is really helping my perception of how to accomplish this. I'm going to try and digest it all but I'll probably be back with more questions tomorrow.:)
-
Guys thanks so much...this is really helping my perception of how to accomplish this. I'm going to try and digest it all but I'll probably be back with more questions tomorrow.:)
Only way to learn is ask, you are doing the right thing. Keep asking questions...always always try to learn something new.
It would also behove (sp?) you to take up Joachim on his offer. Having a Mentor goes a long way. I had the fortune to have had someone take interest in my flying; and that individual's mentorship has increased my skill 5-fold and shortened the learning curve exponentially......
Papa
-
Using roll to get guns, switch trail on.
http://www.4shared.com/file/9ey4wVjW/19047.html
(http://www.4shared.com/file/9ey4wVjW/19047.html)
-
Very helpful...thanks much....but can you clarify on the following:
"As you dive, use your roll to track his turn, you can roll much faster than he can turn."
Also, how do you reverse in the FW, which has no turn?
This is in reference to a vertical attack. If the bandit breaks in a mostly horizontal fashion while you are attacking from directly above you can easily match his break turn with roll rate.
A very common mistake is to dive down to the enemy when he is spotted. We are not trying to achieve a equal energy state merge. If you spot a low bandit you wish to attack, keep your altitude until you arrive over the bandit. At that point you initiate your attack in the form of a barrel roll attack or split S attack depending upon bandit direction relative to you.
Conversely, do not drive under high bandits. The best defense against a high bandit is to make him chase you. Don't let him achieve position over you. He will most likely become impatient and dive after you. Once he equalizes E-state you can then reverse and teach him an important lesson.
Here are a couple examples of roll rate defeating turn although they are not textbook examples.
Roll versus turn 1 (https://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/la7 roll rate to defeat turn.ahf)
Roll rate versus turn 2 (https://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/roll rate beats turn 1.ahf)
Here is most of a recent bnz fight. The thing to watch for is I have position myself over a fight that is mostly horizontal . I stay vertical through most of it and it makes for easy PICKings. If you get accused of "picking" then you are probably doing a good job of bnz in a furball.
Bnz furball (https://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/bnz multiple kill fight.ahf)
I'll try to find or create a "textbook" example of defeating a hard breaking bandit using roll rate so that it is more clear.
-
This is a slightly better demonstration of using roll rate to defeat a hard break turn
Roll rate example 3 (https://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/roll rate textbook.ahf)
-
Dawger, so it seems from the film that you get right above the target, or as near as you can, and dive straight down on them, then as they turn, you roll to point your lift vector in their direction?
It seems also that in most cases you are staying relatively close to the furball (not extending away) by using the 38's climbing ability? Would you have to extend further in a plane that doesn't climb as well, like the 51?
-
Okay, did some bnz style flying based on your suggestions and did very well. :) I still don't think I've got it quite mastered....I will try and post some film on how I did though. I managed to down a hurri with an A8, and got a kill and an assist flying a D-hog, which for me is nothing short of a miracle. Moreover, with the A8 I'm finding I can actually live longer. :)
The A8 is very good at regaining energy, but the hogs still give me trouble. I find it a struggle to regain e, largely because of the poor climb rate. After about 2-3 passes the plane feels very slow and it takes forever to get to a respectable altitude.
The other problem I'm having is resisting the temptation to turn towards a target if he breaks. I managed to stop myself while flying the hog against an f6f, which let me set up the kill shot on the next pass, but there were a couple of times where I found myself trying to follow him through the turn, which caused me to bleed energy.
Practice, Practice. :)
-Muzzy
-
I too am trying to learn the fast fight. It's been very frustrating trying to transition from turn fighting. Everyone teaches turn fighting, and they do it very well. I've been studying it aggressively for the last 7 months - but to implement it in the MA's is a death sentence. Learning how to stay fast, and maneuver for a kill, has me crosswired. Every time I'm up high after a pass, I throw out flaps to increase my turn over the top. I go flaps out and it's TURN FIGHT TIME! (Could really use a voice in my ear reminding me to stay fast ;) )
I asked this question to one of my squaddies the other day, his response was "It's all in the sight picture." What I got from that was, it's learning how to gage lead, and firing distance - the firing window - so that you can get a kill, or crippling, shot in just one pass. Cannons help, I'm sure, but I've seen guys doing it in the Big Blue Birds - P47 included - who only have .50's. So, my add on question to this is: Does anyone have any drills that will train for "Sight Picture?" And don't just give me the ubiquitous "It takes time and experience." I don't buy it. There HAS to be a drill, some way to master the principals. Otherwise our real fly-boys would never be able to do it because they don't get that much practice.
-
Well my deflection shooting is horrible, and the bz kills and assists I've gotten have been by gauging when the opponent is going to turn so I get a clean six shot as I go by. Failing that, I'll fire off a quick burst if I can get my nose aimed in front of his flight path.
One thing that helped me a little was bnz'ing the drones offline, coming in at different angles. The only thing I know for sure is unload g and if your sights are on the con when you're about to fire (on a deflection shot) then you're going to miss.
-
Dawger, so it seems from the film that you get right above the target, or as near as you can, and dive straight down on them, then as they turn, you roll to point your lift vector in their direction?
It seems also that in most cases you are staying relatively close to the furball (not extending away) by using the 38's climbing ability? Would you have to extend further in a plane that doesn't climb as well, like the 51?
Completely dependent on the situation. That fur ball contained 109's that would be able to climb with the P38 but they were all distracted.
-
Well I didn't land many bz kills today but I did get a few assists...and 2 good opportunites blown because I forgot to switch my cannons on :mad:
I am finding that this style of play is improving my survivability though. I can usually make it home, kills or no kills.
-
I've flown the 109A-8 a lot (along with the Bf109K-4, F6F-5 and Spits V, IX and XVI as my primary rides over the years). A properly flown BnZ or "bounce" in an A8 is nearly impossible for even the best turning enemy planes to escape from due to the fact that you can roll your lift vector much faster than they can turn. You can't delay on your execution though otherwise you'll bleed too much E pulling the stick back. Always turn gently in a 190. Never yank the stick. Always use your roll rate. Always anticipate.
If you mess up the first pass you have one more try then it's time to extend away regaining lost E/alt. If the con climbs on his break extend out climbing. If he flat turns go vertical, roll to his anticipated position and bring it over for your second pass. Always use WEP while climbing. Always use WEP while turning.
If you're fast and can see the shot developing you'll have about 540 degrees of flat turning capability before you have to extend away breaking off the fight.
If you feel you're better than your opponent stay in and learn a few things about the 190. I've turn fought against lesser pilots in all sorts of superior turning aircraft successfully, even going as far as to dump three notches of flaps. Those wins are particularily gratifying.
Last I checked I was still holding about a 10:1 K/D ratio in the A8. Some people call it a boat. I call it a monster.
-
Thanks for the tips. I haven't really tried rolling to keep the target in my sights, but I have learned about making gentle turns and using roll rate defensively. So far I'm at 1.26 kill/death (19 kills, 15 deaths) which is the best I've gotten for an individual aircraft. A couple of questions: does the gun loadout affect performance much, and how much fuel do you usually carry? I'd kind of like to know how much time I have at 100, 75 and 50 percent.
-
Thanks for the tips. I haven't really tried rolling to keep the target in my sights, but I have learned about making gentle turns and using roll rate defensively. So far I'm at 1.26 kill/death (19 kills, 15 deaths) which is the best I've gotten for an individual aircraft. A couple of questions: does the gun loadout affect performance much, and how much fuel do you usually carry? I'd kind of like to know how much time I have at 100, 75 and 50 percent.
I always carry the big gun package with all guns converged to 650 yards and full internal fuel, no drops, no ord but that's just me. I like having the 20's and 30's for a quick kill, long convergence in case I run into buffs along the way and, I hate to admit, for the poor loser who tries to HO a heavily armed A8, and enough fuel to get where I want to go. In fact, I fly almost every plane with full internal fuel with rare exceptions. I figure if I'm good enough at flying I can overcome the additional weight.
-
Ah well, today I sucked. :( I tried the 650 convergence and for some reason I kept missing my shots. I set it back to my regular settings but it didn't seem to help. I did have some really good fights and pulled off some great defensive flying, but I just wish I'd gotten more shots on target. I did take parts off of one plane but he ditched. :(
I intend to keep flying this bird for the month of September as my main ride, while using Corsairs primarily off the CV's and Hurri's for low alt base defense. We'll see.
I will try to record some of my failures for posting here. Maybe you guys can help me figure out what I'm doing wrong.
-
Also...
1) More isn't better when it comes to alt advantage. It's much better to be 2-3k above someone than 5-10k...Some planes are better than others at dumping E in the vertical w/o control compression issues.
2) If you miss the first try, keep trying so long as you have an advantage, but don't do it exactly the same way everytime, any decent stick can adjust to you very quickly.
3) If you have a really wily one, think Greebo here, make yourself unpredictable by fake lunges and lengthy positional resets followed by abrupt reversals and re-attacks. Anything to keep yourself unpredictable and him off-balance.