Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Wolfala on September 16, 2010, 10:43:53 AM
-
Having only really flown the cannon bird - I wanted a few thoughts on the new Mossie as it pertains to strategy. Previously with the MOM type missions, we've had just fleets of B-17s and 24s loafing along at 280 TAS - a pain in the bellybutton to deal with but certainly interception is possible with enough planning. Now we have the classic Boost Phase Ballistic Missile Defense problem: DECISION TIME, which also includes any additional time required for communication between country system elements, estimating the performance characteristics of the attackers and their trajectory, resolving uncertainties in the performance of the defense (i.e. if we are launching 47Ms, 163s, 152s, etc), and other operational factors - and communications delays in country to get the word out that something is coming in fast.
The large and unpredictable variations of Mossie trajectories and the short time available for engaging them drive the requirements for any interceptor.
Factors contributing to uncertainties in the intercept point include:
• Random and systematic errors in the defense detection and tracking system’s measurement of position and velocity and estimate of acceleration of the attacking missile (i.e. RADAR - is it up or down in areas)
• Lack of knowledge of the target (is it going to HQ)
• Normal or induced thrust-time variations of the threat booster (Are they climbing over country to get up to speed or just direct to destination)
• Intentional trajectory shaping, including lofting or depressing the trajectory and
maneuvering to manage energy (If at 30K and they dive to 25K for the attack run to build up escape velocity)
• Intentional evasive maneuvers, such as dog-legs or other maneuvers
• Lack of knowledge of the potential type or characteristics of the threat
These uncertainties reduce the time available for the engagement and require interceptor velocity and acceleration substantially greater than is generally recognized.
All said - I see this bird being a serious pain in the bellybutton to deal with short of blasting up with 163s every time. You essentially have a single pass from a head on and then good luck catching up without burning yr WEP out. Intercept geometry should be limited to front 45 and rear 45 with slashing - no head-on because of losing so much smash in the turn around to re-attack.
-
Too...many...big words! :bolt:
Mossi new is good. mossi need gun!
-
ive only flown this plane offline, and the sorties i ran were at 20k, 25k, and 30k. in an MA situation, i know that most flyers would be at around 10-15k, so speed would be significantly lower.
during my flights, i topped out at 359 kts TAS with the cookie, and 375 kts TAS without it. this was at 30k with 75% gas
all im saying is, you better be comming in with some E. i doubt anything less than a 152 will be able to keep up with it at altitude. the key is to estimate what altitude they are at, and come in 5k above them, to get your E right back up.
as for 262s, just know that this thing can fly circles around you, so plan your intercept with precision
im not the mossie buff, so anyone (karnak) feel free to correct me if i said something wrong :salute
-
in an MA situation, i know that most flyers would be at around 10-15k, so speed would be significantly lower.
I would be very surprised if that would be the case. The steep perk price (even more so with formation) and the fact that the Mossie will climb to safer altitudes in a relatively short time will most likely result in altitudes of 25k+ as a norm .
-
It may happen in the near future that less & less players will up for enemy cons doing bombing runs behind the front lines.
It's quite frustrating for players to up a fighter just to realize they can't catch that con at all. And when you then add the fact that those buffs (may it be Mossies or merely the good old Lancs/B-17s) can't "hurt" your side anyway - most of them just bomb a few towns for maximum points instead of risking to face the fierce ack over the strat targets (which don't give nearly as much score as the towns).
Now if the strats were more worth in effect on gameplay AND in score (don't underestimate that factor!), they could be a proper target for the Mossie, and one with a better chance for the defenders to execute a successful interception.
-
1. Unless countries wish to start high-altitude 262 patrol sorties to intercept potential bombers, the only deterrent/inteceptor is the Me-163.
2. The mossies have an impressive fast climb rate, even with cookie monster strapped on. If someone creates a monster bombing mission of cookie monsters with 262 as close air support, you'll have one heck of an issue as Wolf pointed out to a) intercept, and b) re-engage after initial pass, especially if the mission is at 25,000ft.
3. The mossies are fairly durable, but a whole lot smaller than any other british or american bomber. She's a good turner as well. At altitude, if a Mossie pilot decides to slightly nose down and egress out of the area, forget any persuit options.
These three points may redefine how the MA operates under the constant threat of a cookie monster attack.
(http://static.open.salon.com/files/cookie-monster3-7769871237963363.jpg)
-
The long range high altitude speed demons will see more use. At 25k and up, the P47's, P38's (to a lesser degree), P51's, and the Ta152 will be the aircraft that will chase down the Mossi B Mk XVI. The Me262's issue is getting that high, it gets a bit heavy and sluggish at the higher alts.
-
The long range high altitude speed demons will see more use. At 25k and up, the P47's, P38's (to a lesser degree), P51's, and the Ta152 will be the aircraft that will chase down the Mossi B Mk XVI. The Me262's issue is getting that high, it gets a bit heavy and sluggish at the higher alts.
Actually I had a P-47N and a Ta 152 trying to get my Mossie last night, to no avail :)
-
A 47M on station at 30k will be the deterrent.
Infidelz
-
A 47M on station at 30k will be the deterrent.
Infidelz
it might be.. but it will still take awhile if the mossie is at 35k :)
the one advantage I suppose, is you won't have to patiently set up an attack like you do on bombers with guns, as you can just creep right up on the mossies' 6 with no fears.
-
A 47M on station at 30k will be the deterrent.
You have to know where the mossie wants to go.
Today I did fly the Mossie for 5 1/2 hours. Whenever I saw someone could be waiting for me (darbar in sector) is simply switched target.
-
ive only flown this plane offline, and the sorties i ran were at 20k, 25k, and 30k. in an MA situation, i know that most flyers would be at around 10-15k, so speed would be significantly lower.
during my flights, i topped out at 359 kts TAS with the cookie, and 375 kts TAS without it. this was at 30k with 75% gas
all im saying is, you better be comming in with some E. i doubt anything less than a 152 will be able to keep up with it at altitude. the key is to estimate what altitude they are at, and come in 5k above them, to get your E right back up.
as for 262s, just know that this thing can fly circles around you, so plan your intercept with precision
im not the mossie buff, so anyone (karnak) feel free to correct me if i said something wrong :salute
i hit optimum alt fast for a game bomber and had no problems so far. it seems most are doing the same
-
A 47M on station at 30k will be the deterrent.
Infidelz
As I recall, endurance wasn't the P-47M's strong point, so that is kinda like saying Spitfire XIVs and Bf109K-4s loitering at 30k will be its deterrent.
I'd expect the P-47N to be a much more potent threat.
-
After 24h
I have spent ~8h now in Mossie in altitude level bombing missions. I was flying at varying altitudes between 17 and 30k, most of the time around 25. I did fly single bomber as well as taking formations into the sky.
Several times did enemies try to intercept me. Most tries failed early & miserably, fighters upping from the very base I was just passing over @25k. Rarely someone seemed to takeoff one or more sector ahead to gain altitude, I was easily able to avoid that by changing course & target (all towns go boom the same way).
Two times fighters followed me hoping to get me landing/on rearm pad, but I had ample fuel to land further inland, one time I simply dropped below darbar altitude - the enemy figher must have thought I was landing on the base in the sector, whereas I did just fly on the deck to the airbase in the next sector.
Only once (in 8 hours flying time!) a Ta 152H was able to catch me @ 28k - after chasing me for 7 sectors in dot vis range! I was dragging him to my own factories, did a high speed dive & some evasives, and got home with a proxy kill. :)
-
As I recall, endurance wasn't the P-47M's strong point, so that is kinda like saying Spitfire XIVs and Bf109K-4s loitering at 30k will be its deterrent.
I'd expect the P-47N to be a much more potent threat.
i saw on military channel or history channel that p47m were only used to chase low alt V1 rockets.
I thought p47m would be faster only at low alt, like tempest :headscratch:
-
i saw on military channel or history channel that p47m were only used to chase low alt V1 rockets.
That's not correct. And yes, TV is about the worst source for any knowledge about military history, military technology or any kind of knowledge at all ;)
I thought p47m would be faster only at low alt, like tempest :headscratch:
It was still a high performance and superb high altitude fighter (once the bugs were ironed out)
-
i saw on military channel or history channel that p47m were only used to chase low alt V1 rockets.
I thought p47m would be faster only at low alt, like tempest :headscratch:
Why? It didn't chase V1s and it has the same engine as the P-47N.
-
If you read the Report of Joint Fighter Conference from 16-23 October 1944, NAS Pax River, at the end of the conference it was voted the best fighter over 25,000 feet.
-
Looking at the form of the "cookie" it was hardly a pinpoint weapon having any kind of stabilizing surfaces, so dropped from 30k the bomb likely had a considerable dispersion from sighting point. But of course we do not have that problem in AH and we can put an eye out of a CV gunner if we desire. ;)
-C+
-
Only once (in 8 hours flying time!) a Ta 152H was able to catch me @ 28k - after chasing me for 7 sectors in dot vis range! I was dragging him to my own factories, did a high speed dive & some evasives, and got home with a proxy kill. :)
Please give us more details. Did the 152 run ito you at alt or did he he climb up from lower alt? How far could he close the gap? Did you bomb target in the meantime? Did you use WEP often?
Thanks!
-
109 K4 climbs much faster and its much faster till 40k. I had no problem killing a mossie I found co-alt yesterday even in a dive.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/planeperf.php?gtype=2&pw=2&p1=110&p2=1&submitButtonName=Generate+Chart (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/planeperf.php?gtype=2&pw=2&p1=110&p2=1&submitButtonName=Generate+Chart)
-
Did the 152 run ito you at alt or did he he climb up from lower alt?
He was initally lower than me, can't tell how much exactly. I was quite far in enemy airspace, almost close to Bish/Rook border (I was Knight).
I think he was taking off from a nearby 4k base while I was making my way from Rook town to town. I had botched one target approach, so I ventured further inland towards his darbar. I think if I had been more attentive/cautious I could have totally avoided him, but my concentration was a bit slipping after a full day of Mosquito flying. ;)
How far could he close the gap?
He did catch me, after a 7 sector chase
Did you bomb target in the meantime?
Yes, I bombed my last target while I was being hunted. No reason to waste those bombs
Did you use WEP often?
I used up my 5 mins of WEP towards the end of the chase.
-
109 K4 climbs much faster and its much faster till 40k. I had no problem killing a mossie I found co-alt yesterday even in a dive.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/planeperf.php?gtype=2&pw=2&p1=110&p2=1&submitButtonName=Generate+Chart (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/planeperf.php?gtype=2&pw=2&p1=110&p2=1&submitButtonName=Generate+Chart)
That's the trick - finding one co-alt ;)
But few people are patrolling at that altitude. And if you are taking off for a 28k mossie already on dar, you will have a hard time to catch up, especially if the Mossie driver is keeping attention to the darbars and changing course.
-
Oh I see the problem now then. One I found was around 18k from memory. Didn't realize they could bomb properly from that height.
-
Oh I see the problem now then. One I found was around 18k from memory. Didn't realize they could bomb properly from that height.
18k is quite low. The optimum altitude for the Mossie is 28k. If keeping WEP for the chase, a 109K needs about 11 minutes to reach 28K, during which a loaded Mossie will cover about 60 miles - more than 2 sectors. The 109K will have to plan ahead, and if the Mossie pilot isn't going for the factories (why should he? Predictable, ack infested, less yield in points) he can quite easily change course & target.
-
The Mossie XVI is beautiful isn't it? I'm in love again ...
It looks like a bit of a game changer though - a flight will make a CV's day not-so-happy so quickly, and a lot more towns will find themselves with no town centre much more often.
The 4K cookie couldn't have been that accurate when dropped from high alt, so to mitigate the Mossie's awesome performance a little I think the cookie should be made to be a bit more erratic when dropped. Having said that - we'd need some evidence to that effect and I can't find any reliable sources.
-
It looks like a bit of a game changer though - a flight will make a CV's day not-so-happy so quickly,
I don't think it will see that much usage in the anti-CV role in the long run. The Mossie have to come down for that, being easy prey for patrolling fighters then.
-
Oh I see the problem now then. One I found was around 18k from memory. Didn't realize they could bomb properly from that height.
oh, they can.. yesterday I took up a single with 6x500 and took out 6 radars from 30K..
-
I don't think it will see that much usage in the anti-CV role in the long run. The Mossie have to come down for that, being easy prey for patrolling fighters then.
Why do they have to come down? 3 x 4k cookies from 30k ...
Although the CV will have a lot more time to turn, they often don't - especially if they don't realise they're Mossies.
-
Why do they have to come down? 3 x 4k cookies from 30k ...
Will rarely have success, unless the CV his running in a straight line long enough to line up & drop (a cookie takes about 50 seconds from drop to impact at 30k)
It's almost a freak occurrence. Also take into account that it would take a Mossie about 30 minutes to get in such an attack position.
It's very rare in the MA to see a CV being sunk by bombers considerable higher than 12k.
-
Kind of interesting seeing people in here wrestling with the same problem the Luftwaffe had.
-
Considering I never fly bombers but occasionally get bomber perks from dropping troops... maybe I'll up an Arado to shoot down your Mossies?
:lol
-
How is the Mosquito B.Mk XVI in comparison with the Ar234? They fill a very similar role, so the question becomes, which is better at that role? I can think of strengths for each of them, but off hand while the Ar234 seems likely to be a bit more survivable, the Mosquito 16 seems to be more useful.
What are their respective effective ranges in AH2?
It is kinda an interesting situation, what is close to the pinnacle performance for piston engined bombers vs. the earliest jet engined bomber. Both of them were designed for survivability by evading enemy fighters rather than by fighting through them with guns and in that they both pointed the way bombers would seek to operate in the future.
-
How is the Mosquito B.Mk XVI in comparison with the Ar234? They fill a very similar role, so the question becomes, which is better at that role? I can think of strengths for each of them, but off hand while the Ar234 seems likely to be a bit more survivable, the Mosquito 16 seems to be more useful.
I agree: The Arado is more survivable, the Mossie is more "useful", or better: Allows for more flexibilty. The option of carrying 6 bombs instead of 3 (Arado) is often more useful despite being smaller in size (for example when porking).
The Arado is more survivable particularly at low to medium altitudes, and can fly away from any fighter but the 262/163, even when being caught co alt (and has something to shoot back with ;) ). The Mossie has bigger endurance (~83 minutes at 100%, about 116 minutes with DT's), but that being said I never had any range problems in Arados (jet efficiency increases at altitude, you still have more than 30 minutes of endurance left when you reach 20k)
-
There is one thing that could get difficult for players that rarely fly buffs: Target spotting, identification, and lining up.
When bombing from optimum altitude at high speed (~360mph) the point of bomb release is way further out than being used to from other bombers. You have to line up long before you have your target in sight. And at that speed turning for another attack takes a lot of time & room
-
How are their respective speeds when loaded? How about loaded, but without the external 500lbers on the Mossie?
-
Kind of interesting seeing people in here wrestling with the same problem the Luftwaffe had.
I guess the simulation is not so far off then :aok
-
How are their respective speeds when loaded? How about loaded, but without the external 500lbers on the Mossie?
At 50% fuel, single cookie, no externals the Mossie goes 391mph at 27k. (tested)
Matches the speed chart quite well:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=39&p2=110&pw=0>ype=0)
-
At 50% fuel, single cookie, no externals the Mossie goes 391mph at 27k. (tested)
Matches the speed chart quite well:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=39&p2=110&pw=0>ype=0)
with wep the plane's even more insane...
-
Last time I tested the Ar234, it only did about 390 with its max bombload due to it all being external, though I have no memory of what altitude I tested it at.
-
I'll be curious to see what role they play. I took a formation on a run to strat yesterday, no big reason, it's just something to hit (FIX THE STRATS). Took them up to 33k and slipped between the radars to drop my cookies. Headed strait out over a few radars, I'm not sure if anyone tried to come after me, I saw a dar bar or two, but they never would have caught up with me. It takes a long time for you speed to settle out, similar to the 234, so that has to be planned. I know when I hit strat I had to turn rather sharply to get my target and the bombsite was wobbling as the plane tried to stabilize.
It doesn't take long to get to a good altitude, especially if you're a bomber pilot used to flying 17s or Lancs.
There is really no advantage to a tight formation like the 91st would normally fly. With no guns all you are doing is giving any attacker a buffet of kills.
-
Hunting the new Mossie can cause some new problems. But I sometimes like to go buff hunting especially in between radar coverage. With regular buffs 28-30k is usually more than adequate. With the new Mossie it probably would help to push it up to about 33-35K. The Bf109K-4 and the TA-152 both do well at those alts and most mossie pilots are going to be lower anyway. But if not it will probably give you enough alt to gain enough E for interception. When I put my theory into practice I will let you know the outcome. If you see a multitude or plethora of expletives then you know it did not work out. What I look like as my plane dives in on an mossie. :x Buy the way looking though the sight is no piece of cake at shaken not stirred speed.
-
The mossie can carry up to 5k in bombs, the 234 around 3k.
But, 4/5 thousand pounds are in the form of one bomb, Mossie is good for killing CVs and Hq's, 234 is more a hanger banger IMHO.
-
A Mossie BXVI can be an effective hanger killer. By setting your salvo to 2, with formations of course, you can drop one hangar per salvo (each drop releases 3k pounds of ord). Three bombers, six eggs on a salvo of 2. With 6 500 pounders per plane, you can drop three hangars, at least in theory. The trick is being dead-on accurate. I can drop hangars with 500 pound bombs on a salvo of 2 in B17s, but that is easier to accomplish because you are much slower.
-
The mossie can carry up to 5k in bombs, the 234 around 3k.
But, 4/5 thousand pounds are in the form of one bomb, Mossie is good for killing CVs and Hq's, 234 is more a hanger banger IMHO.
I disagree, although it may be used as a suicide CV buster, I don't think it will get any more use than a 234 in that roll. Not an HQ plane at all! I see it as viable for 50-100 miles into enemy territory, your biggest advantage is getting to target and be on your way out before anyone tries to come up and get you. If you go deep into enemy territory, you're giving the enemy plenty of time to up an appropriate plane, meet you, and chase you down for easy kills. Also, I'm not taking that mossie anywhere near a 163 base!
-
Also, I'm not taking that mossie anywhere near a 163 base!
Hmmm, I think i'll do this right now just for fun. I'll keep you posted about the results. ;)
-
I disagree, although it may be used as a suicide CV buster, I don't think it will get any more use than a 234 in that roll.
New to the forums, but I'd have to say that it's role as a hangar killer is pretty good, considering it's climb rate and speed (Compared to other bombers), it's also much more likely to succeed at bombing it's target. However it's comparatively low ordanance ordnance capacity is something to take into account when deciding what to use.
As far as interception goes though, I sadly reccomend the Spitfire Mk. 14, it's climb rates are the highest I've seen, as much as I dislike spitfires. Though, it does use a lot of fuel.
-
She is quite nice........... She gives me a sense of freedom..... No guns, just speed and skill. Changes your battle plans greatly. Today I flew one for about 4 hours. Even parked it back at an uncapturable base to go grab a bite to eat. kvuo75 was the only person who got close all sortie.
(http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2589/mossieb.jpg)
:D
-
She is quite nice........... She gives me a sense of freedom..... No guns, just speed and skill. Changes your battle plans greatly. Today I flew one for about 4 hours. Even parked it back at an uncapturable base to go grab a bite to eat. kvuo75 was the only person who got close all sortie.
(http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2589/mossieb.jpg)
:D
damn! and I was close too! :)
:aok
-
She is quite nice........... She gives me a sense of freedom..... No guns, just speed and skill. Changes your battle plans greatly. Today I flew one for about 4 hours. Even parked it back at an uncapturable base to go grab a bite to eat. kvuo75 was the only person who got close all sortie.
(http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2589/mossieb.jpg)
:D
I agree, I too have enjoyed flying it. Seeing a dot appear below you only for him to realize he's got no chance. I've been trying to stay deep in radar to try and get some people to try and follow but haven't had many takers yet.
-
You were too close... :salute
damn! and I was close too! :)
:aok
-
I flew a new Mossi formation to HQ the other night at 29K . A 109 and 262 came up to meet me. Kicked in the WEP and turned away. They did not catch me... This plane is also very accurate when bombing at that height.. I did not think that I had hit HQ but I did.. Very accurate even at 29K.
-
I don't know what kind of food you feeding your mossie but I always get run down by yaks. :headscratch:
-
I don't know what kind of food you feeding your mossie but I always get run down by yaks. :headscratch:
You are aware we have a new bomber mossie, which is really only properly used at high alt.
-
You are aware we have a new bomber mossie, which is really only properly used at high alt.
Yes I am aware. But my operational hight is 20k+. The yak is fairly fast at that alt.
Maybe I am just unlucky...
-
I've intercepted new mossie 4 times now, at high alt..
One was a still-heavy formation at about 20k, which I completely jumped with a p47d11, all 3 dead, and one was a still-heavy single at about 30k which I patiently climbed to over a sector or two in a 109k4.
The other two were that bastage llogan in singles just after his drop, 2 nites in a row :D .. caught him once in the p47d11, pinged, but mossie can dive and outrun, and he puts up that sortie!
tonight, caught him (deja vu) in p47n, this time, was able to keep up pretty good in the dive, shot hell out of him, but spraying from 600-800 and running out of ammo only gave him a PW. :cry
-
All i know id the new mossi is cumming in H.O.T HOT! I hit 400mph level alt one time.i cant wait to see the impact online.hehehe :devil
As the sky's grow dark, A thunderous sound sweeps the land, All shall quack in terror. As mossis open there bomb bay doors, The whistling sound of falling bombs gets louder and louder until...BOOM!
all...is...destroyed
:huh why did i just do that
-
Yes I am aware. But my operational hight is 20k+. The yak is fairly fast at that alt.
Maybe I am just unlucky...
You have to go above 28K to keep the Yak at distance. Between 20K and 24K, the Yak is a good bit faster.
-
Edit....re read what i wrote......was a bit off topic
-
the new mossi is cumming in H.O.T HOT!
I...just...I mean.... come on... it's too easy.
I think some of the other websites you are visiting might be influencing your spelling.
-
I...just...I mean.... come on... it's too easy.
I think some of the other websites you are visiting might be influencing your spelling.
I wasn't gonna say anything
-
Last night you had me sir.... You tapped my rudder off, left aileron & gave the PW...The right wing was full of holes. If it weren't for lost4554 & ezglider, along with Merc17, I'd have been done for. And where the Jug D model's fall short, the N has enough speed at low alts to keep up with the MossieB, provided it's in an E retention state (ie. from a dive). Next time at high alt versus the N, I'm probably going to try something else besides dive. Maybe a split-s or even, dare I say, something similar to the good ole Erich Hartmann maneuver.... Not really fully, but just to get a quick vector change, then rely on the Merlin's.
I've intercepted new mossie 4 times now, at high alt..
One was a still-heavy formation at about 20k, which I completely jumped with a p47d11, all 3 dead, and one was a still-heavy single at about 30k which I patiently climbed to over a sector or two in a 109k4.
The other two were that bastage llogan in singles just after his drop, 2 nites in a row :D .. caught him once in the p47d11, pinged, but mossie can dive and outrun, and he puts up that sortie!
tonight, caught him (deja vu) in p47n, this time, was able to keep up pretty good in the dive, shot hell out of him, but spraying from 600-800 and running out of ammo only gave him a PW. :cry
-
sounds imba. . . but hay, not my stick.
-
All i know id the new mossi is cumming in H.O.T HOT! I hit 400mph level alt one time.i cant wait to see the impact online.hehehe :devil
As the sky's grow dark, A thunderous sound sweeps the land, All shall quack in terror. As mossis open there bomb bay doors, The whistling sound of falling bombs gets louder and louder until...BOOM!
all...is...destroyed
:huh why did i just do that
well i may have bin cumming out of a dive but i tryed it again and i droped 3 or 4 k and hit 430mph
-
well i may have bin cumming out of a dive but i tryed it again and i droped 3 or 4 k and hit 430mph
You did it again.
(http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/facepalm2.gif)
-
Ok, well you PMed me because you don't understand. Please fill in the blank with the correct word, make sure it is spelled correctly.
Well, I may have been ________ out of a dive.
-
Abusive profanity is what I call it. He should get at least a one week ban. There are ladies here.
Stoopid kid.
-
Abusive profanity is what I call it. He should get at least a one week ban. There are ladies here.
Stoopid kid.
i dont understand but how about pulling out of a dive?will that get you to shut up?
-
Well considering what you were doing, it was an excellent time to pull out! :aok
-
Well considering what you were doing, it was an excellent time to pull out! :aok
WHAT!!!???
-
The word is coming. You are but twelve, but the word you're using has a different meaning. We already know where you learned it.
-
The word is coming. You are but twelve, but the word you're using has a different meaning. We already know where you learned it.
"WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????"
-
You're dumb.
-
Well considering what you were doing, it was an excellent time to pull out! :aok
(http://www.adambrooks.net/images/peternorth.jpg)
-
"WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????"
And to think he was the fastest swimmer! :bolt:
-
Scotch, poignant, as always... :salute
So back to diving problems........... (oh goodness I can't believe I'm going to say this) You have to know how to handle the trim. :bolt: