Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: NCLawman on November 26, 2010, 10:17:22 AM
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Logged on (Late War) to find that BISH are getting steamrolled on two fronts. Rooks and Knits have once again decided to have an extra-marital affair rather than fight each other. The Knit horde attacking from the south and the Rook attacking from the west. Rooks are able to fly bombers right into BISH HQ and Knits are rolling bases in the south.
Go to a nearby base to get a fighter for some bomber lunch, and find that ENY is so high, BISH CANNOT defend. BISH getting double team pounced, but are plagued by ENY??? Please help me understand how THAT is good for the game?
:(
*** edit for spelling ***
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I agree completely. The current side balancing measures are completely blind to the disposition of forces. Until a system is in place that accounts for how the constituent forces of each country are arrayed it will continue to be inherently deeply flawed. Very rarely are forces of each country arrayed in perfect balance, but the side balancing measures are predicated upon that very supposition.
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Well, I did my part to lower BISH ENY, I logged off.
Even the standard "Switch" countries response does not apply in this situation. If I switch, I am only further exacerbating the problem by becoming one of the 'horders'.
Before the flames begin, I am NOT suggesting that only BISH are victims of this ENY issue. I am certain that there are occasions where it affects ROOK and KNITS also. There is no monopoly on getting double teamed. This is why a localized ENY or some other means of 'side leveling' should be in place to account for the lack of fight between the other two countries.
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Yes exactly, see my post below from a similar thread recently...
Just knee jerk switching to the low-side isn't necessarily the right move. Often the two low countries are ganging up on the higher #'d country. Say Knights have 100 people and Rooks and Bish each have 75 people. Often , especially on certain maps, the combined 150 Bish & Rooks are almost exclusively arrayed against the 100 Knights, putting them at a crushing disadvantage, so switching off Knights would actually hurt gameplay. So, before you switch, check the map to see how the forces are arrayed. Also, if there are more than 100 people in an arena anything less than 10% variance between #'s has negligible impact on gameplay. Now, if there's less than 100 people in the arena 10% or even less disparity can make a dramatic difference in gameplay.
I have seen squaddies log-in, check country status with 300+ people in the arena, see Rooks have 8 less people than Knights and switch to Rooks, which is just silly from a statistical perspective. Without factoring in how forces are arrayed and understanding the concept of statistical insignificance this kind of move would at best have zero impact on gameplay and could possibly hurt gameplay if forces are arrayed disproportionately, which they almost always are to some degree.
The above example exemplifies one glaring shortcoming of the side balancing measures in place. It doesn't take into account how the forces of each country are arrayed. Just because a team has more people on paper doesn't mean they are not getting tag teamed by the other two simply because they happen to be sitting in the reset corner of a particular map. The opposite can be true too, a team with low #'s in reset corner can be fighting both the two higher number country's forces so their actual numerical disadvantage is much, much worse than the side-balancing measures calculate.
This is when people get really pissed off about the side balancing and ENY stuff. Just last week this happened and it happens all the time. All day Knights had the most #'s, throughout the day they were even penalized by the ENY limiter. But, all day, with the exception of perhaps a dozen Rooks and Bish combined fighting each other off and on, everyone else was fighting Knights. So, in reality they were numerically disadvantaged all day AND getting penalized by the ENY limiter. But, if you checked the Country Status it would look like they had a healthy numbers lead on paper, in reality they were getting swamped and losing bases left and right...So, anyone who switches without examining the map, purely based on the Country Status readout, is deeply flawed and just as likely to do harm as good to overall gameplay...
As a general rule, even without examining the map, if the difference between a given side is less then the average number of idle players not in-flight, you're not accomplishing anything by switching...So, switching can be a huge boon to gameplay if done for the right reason based upon the right information. But, it can also hurt gameplay if done for the right reason but based upon the wrong information. This is especially true for high impact players..those that kill a lot, therefore have a disproportionately higher impact on gameplay balance than your average player.
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Thank you Zazen for the supporting posts. You are exactly right in the assessment.
:salute
Hopefully this idea will catch on and maybe HTC might consider addressing it.
:cheers:
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Hitler would have loved the ENY :noid
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What is needed with this new set up is organized missions with at least 75% of the logged on Bishops in the mission. Most times we ahve 75 guys on at 75 bases doing 75 things and not any 2 people working together at anything. Now it is your $14.95 and if your thing is being ran off the map by the Rooks & knights, so be it. The Rooks and Knights are not fighting each other mostly. All you have to do is look at the bases flashing to see it. Part of that may be the map that is up at the time.
So if you don't like getting steam rolled by the Rooks & Knights and you want to know how to stop them. Here is a clue, Next time you see mission up, join it. With the arena as it is now the only way to have success is mass numbers. Some of the old timers run real good missions. Another way to slow down an advance is to pork the ords at the attacking bases. This sounds simple and it is but very few people take to time to do it. No troops,No ords, No base capture about sums it up. One P-51D with two 500 lbs bombs can take out the ords at a large base and fly away. CSA General Nathan Bedford Forrest said, Get there first with the most. That is good advise.
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I've posted numerous times on this issue to no avail. I completely agree there should be localized ENY.
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What is needed with this new set up is organized missions with at least 75% of the logged on Bishops in the mission. Most times we ahve 75 guys on at 75 bases doing 75 things and not any 2 people working together at anything. Now it is your $14.95 and if your thing is being ran off the map by the Rooks & knights, so be it. The Rooks and Knights are not fighting each other mostly. All you have to do is look at the bases flashing to see it. Part of that may be the map that is up at the time.
So if you don't like getting steam rolled by the Rooks & Knights and you want to know how to stop them. Here is a clue, Next time you see mission up, join it. With the arena as it is now the only way to have success is mass numbers. Some of the old timers run real good missions. Another way to slow down an advance is to pork the ords at the attacking bases. This sounds simple and it is but very few people take to time to do it. No troops,No ords, No base capture about sums it up. One P-51D with two 500 lbs bombs can take out the ords at a large base and fly away. CSA General Nathan Bedford Forrest said, Get there first with the most. That is good advise.
Well, there it is.... the answer I have been looking for. After all these years of AH, I never knew I could join a mission and be a part of a horde. :rofl Also, thank for teaching me how to read the AH clipboard map. I also have never learned that task, and now that you have explained it, I will sleep much better at night. :rofl
I don't want to fly in a mission (using your numbers) with 56.25 people. What exactly am I going to shoot at with 55.25 other BISH flying around?
The point of the thread, was that I COULD NOT up a P51 and go porking because the ENY was so high as BISH were apparently the high numbers. However, the high numbers were outweighed by the fact they were being double teamed.
Maybe instead of being an armchair general, you should go back to the bathroom and finish popping the zits on your face. If your missions are anything like what you describe above from Nathan Bedford Forrest, that is why you can't get anyone to join you. As you said, its your $14.95, but I fail to see the fun in flying where the only risk of death is from the killshooter.
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The localized ENY issue has been brought up many times, and has been shot down many times. Honestly, I think people should stop pursuing it and figure out a different way to deal with ENY. I won't go into reasons localized ENY has been rejected because they've already been said in other threads. BTW, I don't want to criticize, but there are plenty of other aircraft options for porking besides a P-51.
I often criticize people who complain about issues as only perceiving the problem by thinking it's a problem (HOs, Lancstukas) so I have to word this carefully; I have perceived that for the last few weeks, Bish have been on the bad side of a dead front. Not all the time, but very often. So when numbers between sides A, B, & C are equal, but A & C aren't fighting each other, B is facing 2 to 1 odds everywhere. I don't have any idea how to solve this, but I'm almost positive it won't be done with a local ENY. The issue is somewhat exacerbated when you can't switch to a different arena. I think it needs to be given more time to see if this is a rarely occurring problem or a culmination of various things that really is a game play issue. I will agree with you that when you can't up anything less than a 25 ENY plane (happened briefly last night to me) but everywhere you go, you're still outnumbered, is not right.
Try and find a way to have fun anyway, more than once I've upped for a long fight to try and stir up a fight between two enemy bases.
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My perception, for what it's worth:
Although I am most likely in error, it seems to me Rooks especially are more adept at being resource-savvy. As in, they know what the real priority is in base defense, and how to prevent troops from rolling in, as in porking the barracks that allow that to happen. On the offensive, they are more adept at capping & suppressing any & all opposition prior to rolling troops in. If all goon-hunting forces are obliterated, cap is established, hence troops have a clear way in. And that leads to them porking the means in which Bish or Knits try to take the base back, as in pork the barracks.
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BRING BACK THE ZONE BASES!!!!!!!
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I have perceived that for the last few weeks, Bish have been on the bad side of a dead front. Not all the time, but very often. So when numbers between sides A, B, & C are equal, but A & C aren't fighting each other, B is facing 2 to 1 odds everywhere. I don't have any idea how to solve this, but I'm almost positive it won't be done with a local ENY.
In fact localized ENY would solve this problem.
I think it needs to be given more time to see if this is a rarely occurring problem or a culmination of various things that really is a game play issue.
This problem has existed since I started playing AW in 1996. How much longer should we wait?
I will agree with you that when you can't up anything less than a 25 ENY plane (happened briefly last night to me) but everywhere you go, you're still outnumbered, is not right.
So you do agree.
The solution really is pretty simple. Take an airfield and go out three sectors in every direction for a total block of 49 sectors (7x7) including the airfield in the center sector. Calculate how many friendlies and how many enemies are in that block of 49 sectors and calculate ENY. That ENY applies to any aircraft trying to up from that airfield in the middle of that block of sectors. Do so for every airfield on the map. Any airfield with no enemies present are ruled by the overall arena ENY (i.e. local ENY overides arena-wide ENY).
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BRING BACK THE ZONE BASES!!!!!!!
I'm not sure how that should change anything in regard to this thread's topic? :headscratch:
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In fact localized ENY would solve this problem.
This problem has existed since I started playing AW in 1996. How much longer should we wait?
So you do agree.
The solution really is pretty simple. Take an airfield and go out three sectors in every direction for a total block of 49 sectors (7x7) including the airfield in the center sector. Calculate how many friendlies and how many enemies are in that block of 49 sectors and calculate ENY. That ENY applies to any aircraft trying to up from that airfield in the middle of that block of sectors. Do so for every airfield on the map. Any airfield with no enemies present are ruled by the overall arena ENY (i.e. local ENY overides arena-wide ENY).
I didn't want to come off as against local ENY, but the idea has been rejected so much I don't see how HTC will suddenly change it's mind. It seems HTC doesn't think this is a problem. As players, if we feel this is a problem, we need to prove to them that it does have a negative effect on game play. I feel it's a problem but have no proof past, "I feel like it," and that's hardly convincing. Over these next few weeks I'm going to try and compile some data about this issue to see the effect of this. I think unequivocal proof of a problem needs to be present before solutions are discussed. Hopefully in a couple of weeks I will have some hard data of that.
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BTW, I don't want to criticize, but there are plenty of other aircraft options for porking besides a P-51.
I wasn't actually trying to up a pony to go porking. My intent, as noted on the first post, was to up and defend from the swarms of bombers that were attacking with impunity. The P51 reference was quaoting the other brain-donor who tried to take a thread about one issue and turn it into a "You should play how I tell you to", Horde recruiting session.
And, I do see the localized ENY issue as a potential solution to the 'double team' problem. But clearly a side that may have the highest single numbers should not be inhibited by ENY if the other two countries are essentially fighting as 1. A localized ENY (in theory) would recognize that and allow the lone defender team to up defensible planes.
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Logged on (Late War) to find that BISH are getting steamrolled on two fronts. Rooks and Knits have once again decided to have an extra-marital affair rather than fight each other. The Knit horde attacking from the south and the Rook attacking from the west. Rooks are able to fly bombers right into BISH HQ and Knits are rolling bases in the south.
Go to a nearby base to get a fighter for some bomber lunch, and find that ENY is so high, BISH CANNOT defend. BISH getting double team pounced, but are plagued by ENY??? Please help me understand how THAT is good for the game?
:(
*** edit for spelling ***
Apparently the Bish Pocket Adolfs need more practice. You have more pilots <to the point where you claim ENY
doesn't "allow" you to defend>, but are still getting kicked to the curb? Oh well.
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Apparently the Bish Pocket Adolfs need more practice. You have more pilots <to the point where you claim ENY
doesn't "allow" you to defend>, but are still getting kicked to the curb? Oh well.
And your point is ... ??????? :headscratch: :headscratch:
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Apparently the Bish Pocket Adolfs need more practice. You have more pilots <to the point where you claim ENY
doesn't "allow" you to defend>, but are still getting kicked to the curb? Oh well.
You seem to have ignored what this is talking about, or you didn't read it.
If the numbers look something like this:
Knits: 100 Players
Rooks: 100 Players
Bish: 140 Players ENY: ~10, whatever.
Bish have the numbers, yes, but if the Rooks and Knits aren't fighting at all the numbers are more like 200 Players v. 140 Players who are also dealing with an ENY.
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Well, there it is.... the answer I have been looking for. After all these years of AH, I never knew I could join a mission and be a part of a horde. :rofl Also, thank for teaching me how to read the AH clipboard map. I also have never learned that task, and now that you have explained it, I will sleep much better at night. :rofl
I don't want to fly in a mission (using your numbers) with 56.25 people. What exactly am I going to shoot at with 55.25 other BISH flying around?
The point of the thread, was that I COULD NOT up a P51 and go porking because the ENY was so high as BISH were apparently the high numbers. However, the high numbers were outweighed by the fact they were being double teamed.
Maybe instead of being an armchair general, you should go back to the bathroom and finish popping the zits on your face. If your missions are anything like what you describe above from Nathan Bedford Forrest, that is why you can't get anyone to join you. As you said, its your $14.95, but I fail to see the fun in flying where the only risk of death is from the killshooter.
I'm troubled. I normally don't agree with cops on ANYthing.... :aok
(they just gave us 70 mph on I-81...troopies HATE it :banana:)
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You seem to have ignored what this is talking about, or you didn't read it.
If the numbers look something like this:
Knits: 100 Players
Rooks: 100 Players
Bish: 140 Players ENY: ~10, whatever.
Bish have the numbers, yes, but if the Rooks and Knits aren't fighting at all the numbers are more like 200 Players v. 140 Players who are also dealing with an ENY.
Well said, Jay. >salute< Thank you (Of course, it was funnier before you edited out the last line. :lol )
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Well said, Jay. >salute< Thank you (Of course, it was funnier before you edited out the last line. :lol )
:lol I decided it wasn't worth it.
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You seem to have ignored what this is talking about, or you didn't read it.
If the numbers look something like this:
Knits: 100 Players
Rooks: 100 Players
Bish: 140 Players ENY: ~10, whatever.
Bish have the numbers, yes, but if the Rooks and Knits aren't fighting at all the numbers are more like 200 Players v. 140 Players who are also dealing with an ENY.
ENY 10 is no big deal, and if all 100 are attacking bishland <very doubtful> you still have almost 70 a side to
fight them off. I still say boo hoo. Of course you could always mob up and pound one side while ignoring the other.
Then the other guys could come in here and :cry
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DOnt make the after hours arena a SMALL MAP..EVER :aok
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ENY 10 is no big deal, and if all 100 are attacking bishland <very doubtful> you still have almost 70 a side to
fight them off. I still say boo hoo. Of course you could always mob up and pound one side while ignoring the other.
Then the other guys could come in here and :cry
Alright, I'll try this one more time. The example was not specific, just some random numbers, no need to nitpick the numbers. Also, if it's unlikely that all 100 on one side are attacking, then it is also unlikely that all 70 on the other side are defending.
The point is that on occasion, one side (doesn't matter which side) is outnumbered and has an ENY, which is counterproductive of the point of ENY. You can't deny that it happens. Personally, I'm not yet convinced it happens enough to warrant a change, some guys in here are.
IMO, this thread has been mostly productive so far, I see very little whining in here.
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I'm not sure how that should change anything in regard to this thread's topic? :headscratch:
I'm sure we could make a pie chart with our idea as the answer. :headscratch:
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Removing ENY entirely would have the same effect. There is no way to have both localized ENY and a penalty for out numbering the other sides.
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Well NCLawman you are not going get local ENY smart boy. So the only solution to hordes are bigger hordes. I am retired from the Army and not once did I ever hear anyone say, I sure hope we don't out number the enemy attacking us. But if you think ENY is the only problem then there is your problem.
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Well NCLawman you are not going get local ENY smart boy. So the only solution to hordes are bigger hordes. I am retired from the Army and not once did I ever hear anyone say, I sure hope we don't out number the enemy attacking us. But if you think ENY is the only problem then there is your problem.
Horde the horde with a larger hoard. Got to love that cartoon logic. :rofl epic furball :rock
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Ill say it agian:
Landing damage points in buffs has somewhat solved the issue of the bomb and bail guys. Why waste time after dropping ords to have to land with no incentive?
Noone has incentive to put themselves in a disadvantage. Why up off a capped feild? why fight a horde?
Give incentive to guys that overcome situations "XXX survived a 4vs1". Again a coding nightmare, but players would potentially work harder for their kill when they have something to shoot for
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I'm not sure how that should change anything in regard to this thread's topic? :headscratch:
Bring back zone bases, then add an ENY to the bases it 'controls'
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Ill say it agian:
Landing damage points in buffs has somewhat solved the issue of the bomb and bail guys. Why waste time after dropping ords to have to land with no incentive?
Not sure why, but there has been a rash of that going on lately, I seen more bomb and bail types in the last week than I have seen in about 6 months.......
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Well NCLawman you are not going get local ENY smart boy.
How do you know that? Did you buy the game from HT? Did he appoint you his spokesperson? Just curious how you know this to be a fact.
So the only solution to hordes are bigger hordes. I am retired from the Army and not once did I ever hear anyone say, I sure hope we don't out number the enemy attacking us.
I've got news for you. This isn't real life it's a game. Hoarding other players makes the game not fun for them. They log off and after awhile they've had enough and take their $15 elsewhere. That hurts all of us who remain. Less development, fewer people to fight, etc.
You're part of the problem in the arena's that's run so many of the old timers out of the game. I'm not talking about slight numeric supeiority, I'm talking about what you describe; 75% of all players in one country hoarding together.
It's sad because this game used to be about guys who wanted to be the best cartoon fighter pilots in the virtual skies. Now it's about how can we capture a base with the least chance of having to fight anyone.
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Well NCLawman you are not going get local ENY smart boy. So the only solution to hordes are bigger hordes. I am retired from the Army and not once did I ever hear anyone say, I sure hope we don't out number the enemy attacking us. But if you think ENY is the only problem then there is your problem.
Clearly, you are a mental midget. So, I will try to explain this in simple terms. It is true that in REAL LIFE, you would attack with such an overwhelming and ferocious force that the fight is over before the opposing side even knew you were coming. That is because in REAL LIFE a fair fight means you and your friends get killed. In REAL LIFE I would do exactly as you describe because in REAL LIFE, I don't want to waste my life with UNNECESSARY RISKS -- I don't want to needlessly DIE.
AH is NOT REAL LIFE. I know that is difficult for you to understand, but try to follow here.... this is a cartoon. The FUN of a cartoon is to take those risks that you would not take in REAL LIFE and actually fight it out. You see if you die in AH, you DON'T REALLY DIE IN REAL LIFE.
So go back to polishing your undamaged P-fifty-run, and leave the adults to continue this discussion.
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I'm sure we could make a pie chart with our idea as the answer. :headscratch:
PIE CHART
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n559/jw712/pie.jpg)
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The solution really is pretty simple. Take an airfield and go out three sectors in every direction for a total block of 49 sectors (7x7) including the airfield in the center sector. Calculate how many friendlies and how many enemies are in that block of 49 sectors and calculate ENY. That ENY applies to any aircraft trying to up from that airfield in the middle of that block of sectors. Do so for every airfield on the map. Any airfield with no enemies present are ruled by the overall arena ENY (i.e. local ENY overides arena-wide ENY).
I disagree.
Every localized ENY solution that I've ever seen discussed falls apart when you consider what happens when the fighter hangers get closed - or the last base "left" in an area is a v base. I think that the very foundations of game play mechanics would need to change - I think that trying to overlay any kind of localized ENY onto the existing structure is going to have a ton of side effects and unintended opportunities to game the game.
In fact, I think not long after this was put into effect, folks would realize that the most effective ways to defend your bases would be to make sure that no one launches from them!
I also assume that your "7" refers to "telephone pad" sections of a sector (i.e. 9 to a sector) such that you are talking about a radius of roughly 47 miles around the base ENY is being calculated for - otherwise, I can't see how you get 49 from "going 3 sectors out".
<S>
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How do you view limits aloft for each base?
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P.S. found it. Hitech's view on localized ENY.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,295266.0.html
<S>
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We have never tried to manage where people play on a map. And I have still not seen any post as to why it would be a good idea to manage how many people are in one area.
HiTech
Ghastly... You have made a good point, and I appreciate your finding HTC's view on the matter. <S> I would not suggest that local ENY is the end-all beat-all answer. We are not talking about a local ENY to prevent county A from hording (though that might be good too, but different topic). The point of this thread has become about finding a way to keep the side being double teamed from being plagued by ENY. The point of ENY is side balancing, but if teams A and B are collectively fighting C, why should C be hit with ENY?
In HTC post he had said they don't try to manage where people play, and does not have a reason why it would be a good idea to do so.... this thread is that reason. The double teaming is fine, IF I would be able to up a plane to defend. But when two opposing hordes jump on one country who does not even have the ability to defend, it is negatively affecting the game.... as noted, I logged off. I would bet I was not the only one.
So, I ask again (referring to the original post) how is ENY effecting a losing, outnumbered side a good thing for the game?
Respectfully, :salute
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I also assume that your "7" refers to "telephone pad" sections of a sector (i.e. 9 to a sector) such that you are talking about a radius of roughly 47 miles around the base ENY is being calculated for - otherwise, I can't see how you get 49 from "going 3 sectors out".
Sectors are those little squares on the map that have numbers in them. They are outlined by lines in a grid pattern on the map. 3 sectors north plus 3 sectors south plus the sector the base is in = 7 sectors. 3 sectors east plus 3 sectors west plus the sector the base is in = 7 sectors. 7 sectors North/South x 7 sectors East/West = 49 total sectors (7x7) for a radius of approximately 87.5 miles (3.5 sectors x 25 miles/sector). Draw it out if you have to. Of course I'm just using those numbers as an example.
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Ok... the problem I was having with visualizing this as described was that using the map grid blocks at the example numbers is that the local ENY zone would pretty much cover the entirety of a small map (like NDisles for example) for a field near the center, so I was assuming you had to mean something smaller.
<S>
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Sorry Everyone,
I'm to blame, I'm the guy that runs all the missions that take your bases and I apologize wholeheartedly for my indiscretions. By the way, can't we have
mission runner perks/score, for god's sake, just make me Commander in Chief of the Rook's armed forces, and let me choose my generals.
:salute Fellow Rooks
Swoops
CO 777th Demons
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I like pie............. :uhoh
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NClawman
I bet you are about sixteen years old and your Momma didn't teach you any manners sonny. That is why you have to resort to name calling and not the subject at hand. If 50 P-40B's show up at a base all at once, How does local ENY help or hurt your tactical situation. Using ENY as an excuse not to defend a base is no argument. 50 combat air craft at one place at one time regardless if you can get your perk bird of choice is still formidable. ENY while it is a pain in the butt is not what is getting us steam rolled in most cases. As for cartoon wars I served with the 4Th Cavalry Troop F 3rd Squadron 12Th Aviation Group Danang 71/72. I can tell the difference in games and real life.
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NClawman
I bet you are about sixteen years old and your Momma didn't teach you any manners sonny. That is why you have to resort to name calling and not the subject at hand. If 50 P-40B's show up at a base all at once, How does local ENY help or hurt your tactical situation. Using ENY as an excuse not to defend a base is no argument. 50 combat air craft at one place at one time regardless if you can get your perk bird of choice is still formidable. ENY while it is a pain in the butt is not what is getting us steam rolled in most cases. As for cartoon wars I served with the 4Th Cavalry Troop F 3rd Squadron 12Th Aviation Group Danang 71/72. I can tell the difference in games and real life.
Once again, you have not even come close to grasping the subject of the conversation. It has been explained several times over; yet, you fail to even understand the basics of ENY let alone how it may or may not resolve the issue at hand. So please go yank someone else's pant leg. I will not explain this again. Should you chose to try and comprehend anything that has been discussed, I encourage you to go back and re-read the previous posts. If you do not trust me, then read the OTHER posts as they also understand and explained the topic.
In regard to my age, I will let my posts speak for themselves and the readers can form their own opinion. Yours have clearly painted a picture of you.
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How do you know that? Did you buy the game from HT? Did he appoint you his spokesperson? Just curious how you know this to be a fact.
I've got news for you. This isn't real life it's a game. Hoarding other players makes the game not fun for them. They log off and after awhile they've had enough and take their $15 elsewhere. That hurts all of us who remain. Less development, fewer people to fight, etc.
You're part of the problem in the arena's that's run so many of the old timers out of the game. I'm not talking about slight numeric supeiority, I'm talking about what you describe; 75% of all players in one country hoarding together.
It's sad because this game used to be about guys who wanted to be the best cartoon fighter pilots in the virtual skies. Now it's about how can we capture a base with the least chance of having to fight anyone.
Logged on last night.
Went to late war Orange where I saw a bunch of green guys hording two separate bases with no red guys. flew 1 flight with B-17's. Hoping that in time that would change. It didnt. Out of boredom I went to Late War blue.
Late war blue I saw on one end of the map we had a bunch of green guys hording a base with nly afew red guys. Other end of the map I saw a bunch of red guys hording a base with only a few green guys. Figgered I'd up and fight the larger numbered red guys. Took two flights.
First flight I ended up getting gangbanged. Made a decent fight of it, but a horde is still a horde and numbers eventually won the day.
Second flight I upped and ended up getting HO pilot wounded complete with insta total blackout (Another feature I absolutely loathe the way its modeled) by a P47 on climbout but managed to turn around and ditch in spite of the standard total blackout on final approach.
Logged off
whoopie
Forget zone eny limits We need base limits
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Logged on last night.
Went to late war Orange where I saw a bunch of green guys hording two separate bases with no red guys. flew 1 flight with B-17's. Hoping that in time that would change. It didnt. Out of boredom I went to Late War blue.
Late war blue I saw on one end of the map we had a bunch of green guys hording a base with nly afew red guys. Other end of the map I saw a bunch of red guys hording a base with only a few green guys. Figgered I'd up and fight the larger numbered red guys. Took two flights.
First flight I ended up getting gangbanged. Made a decent fight of it, but a horde is still a horde and numbers eventually won the day.
Second flight I upped and ended up getting HO pilot wounded complete with insta total blackout (Another feature I absolutely loathe the way its modeled) by a P47 on climbout but managed to turn around and ditch in spite of the standard total blackout on final approach.
Logged off
whoopie
Forget zone eny limits We need base limits
That's my experience more often than not. It subtly nudges you to join a large squad, or join the green blob. There are guys I like to fly with/hang with on vox, but being part of a dedicated group is a responsibility I've done before, and would just as soon not do again. It's enough of a chore just keeping Boxboy alive :lol) When a new guy joins AH, he sees exactly what Dred just described, gets turned off, or joins the whord out of necessity, which further exacerbates the problem
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So, I ask again (referring to the original post) how is ENY effecting a losing, outnumbered side a good thing for the game?
Respectfully, :salute
Your a smart guy, you know the answer to the obvious.
If your side has ENY that side is outnumbering another side. Switch to the side that has lower amount of players and attack another side. I can give you so many examples of how a side with ENY wastes the resource of having the numbers and also abuse it at the same time.
If you have chosen to pledge allegiance to a chess piece rather be a part of the community that is trying to balance the game by switching sides, that's your choice. There has been much discussion about this topic already, you have that option.
I would much rather see ENY go away only if they capped equally the amount players per side, but that wont ever happen because players cant be responsible about the way they play as it is now.
Going through life with blinders on.......... For the most part, nearly every single complaint about the game is done from a single point of view (or a side), without the added benefit or knowledge gained by switching to another side and getting an unbiased experience and a fresh perspective about not only the players but the dynamics of each side and fly against the side you normally fly with and see how they interact and tactics used. What you once thought of being valid tactics you may see how cheesy and overkill it really is.
If you want to complain about something you think is broke, get the whole picture of the problem not just from your limited view (1/3) of things...... :rolleyes:
That's my experience more often than not. It subtly nudges you to join a large squad, or join the green blob. There are guys I like to fly with/hang with on vox, but being part of a dedicated group is a responsibility I've done before, and would just as soon not do again. It's enough of a chore just keeping Boxboy alive :lol) When a new guy joins AH, he sees exactly what Dred just described, gets turned off, or joins the whord out of necessity, which further exacerbates the problem
Unfortunately, this is the norm. There is no attempt at learning anything, just what comes the easiest. Join a Horde.
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Switch to the side that has lower amount of players and attack another side.
I think you missed the part where changing sides makes him part of the hoard because the other two countries aren't fighting each other. Granted there's no ENY.
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I think you missed the part where changing sides makes him part of the hoard because the other two countries aren't fighting each other. Granted there's no ENY.
I didnt miss any part. Switching sides does not make him part of the horde. Several things happen when you switch sides that your not accounting for.
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I didnt miss any part. Switching sides does not make him part of the horde. Several things happen when you switch sides that your not accounting for.
Dads.... the entire point of the thread is that MY side IS (or was at that time) the low numbers (accounting for the fact that A and B are fighting as 1 against C). Switching sides simply adds me to the A or B which are already gang hording C. How does that help?
The issue is NOT that ENY is preventing me from getting an uber plane to attack and vulch. It is that the ENY was blocking the defensive side (lower number side) from actually being able to defend.
respectfully,
:salute
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What you once thought of being valid tactics you may see how cheesy and overkill it really is.
If you want to complain about something you think is broke, get the whole picture of the problem not just from your limited view (1/3) of things...... :rolleyes:
Unfortunately, this is the norm. There is no attempt at learning anything, just what comes the easiest. Join a Horde.
You may consider reviewing my previous posts.... regarding the cheesy and overkill issue, that was exactly my point.... I don't want to be a part of the GREEN BLOB. What is the fun in flying among 50 other friendlies. When (or if) I return to base, I like for it to be out of fuel and out of ammo. Flying for 2 hours in a green horde hoping to 'win the lotto' and be in the right place to get a vulch before the other 49 friendlies can, is NOT my idea of entertaining. It is a waste of my time.
With all due respect, I think you have misunderstood the point of my first post. However, on the topic of your assumption, local ENY would help there also (though off topic from my initial post). If 50 Bish are upping from one base to go on a hording mission, what's wrong with limiting the number of 'uber planes' on the attack? Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that, but the question is still valid. It would assist in preventing the cheesy overkill for which you are denouncing.
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If your side has ENY that side is outnumbering another side. Switch to the side that has lower amount of players and attack another side. I can give you so many examples of how a side with ENY wastes the resource of having the numbers and also abuse it at the same time.
lol if that happened there would be no hordes. if there as a mission (aka horde) your not gonna switch sides if you joined said mission. and chances are you dont know your part of the horde til you get there and theres 30 of you and only 5-10 defenders. and the 5-10 defenders are calling for help but everyone else is off furballing and doing their own thing. maybe even defending another base on the other front
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I didnt miss any part. Switching sides does not make him part of the horde. Several things happen when you switch sides that your not accounting for.
When 'A' and 'B' are hitting 'C', and not fighting each other...switching to 'A' or 'B' is pointless...attack a base by urself, die in ack? Mebbe if ya can get 6-8 guys to switch, and do just that...after ya spend an hour taking 2-3 undefended bases..THEN MAYBE the gang/horde will take note of you. (of course...said 6-8 guys are having to do that with 8-10+ eny rides, due to the afore-mentioned numbers problem) That's a lotta work just to CREATE a scenario where fun can occur
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Dads.... the entire point of the thread is that MY side IS (or was at that time) the low numbers (accounting for the fact that A and B are fighting as 1 against C). Switching sides simply adds me to the A or B which are already gang hording C. How does that help?
The issue is NOT that ENY is preventing me from getting an uber plane to attack and vulch. It is that the ENY was blocking the defensive side (lower number side) from actually being able to defend.
respectfully,
:salute
Sorry for the length but I will try to explain.
First I Completely understand you.
Its actually quite the opposite.
What you must get past is your side being outnumbered when your side has the ENY, let me explain.
By switching sides and taking your squad mates, friends etc. etc. to the lowest numbers side (since your current side has eny there must be a lower side and will benefit you, the game, take away ENY for your side) So if your on Side A: B and C is attacking A. C has the lowest numbers side so join them and attack side B.
This will do several things:
1. Lower ENY for Side A.
2. Start a fight between side B and C.
3. Start a fight or Land grab either B and C for what they wont defend, you are sure to get their attention.
4. most of all you will see exactly what I have described.
You must ask yourself why does it happen?
When a side has the numbers it will naturally grab the attention of the other two sides because of what the tendency of how players are using those numbers as an advantage and how it can be so overwhelming (noe/ hording,combination of the two).
All three sides, some more than others, some less than others, overwhelmingly do not enjoy seeing a base stolen without a fight, period.
When one is taken with little or no effort either it be by superior numbers or lack of defense in time, it invokes real life emotion when this happens of anger and aggression, basically pisses people off, (just a part of the game), but when its done as the only means of attack and over and over again it really pisses people off and will draw much more attention from those that want to defend against it and consider it a challenge to beat them back, every one of us has that instinct in us if you want admit it or not.
Good example is Side A has 80 players B and C have 50 each. Side B will at some point realize that side A is noe'ing base after base or attacking a base for capture. Side B will start to defend against the attack and will discourage side A for the moment.
Side A will move to Side C to suprise noe them for a take and they too will realize at some point that stealing base after base has gotten their attention. Side A gets discouraged and shifts to side B again for another take, and the cycle begins back and forth between B and C.
At some point or moment both sides will be focused completely on the W A M part of the game trying to defend against what soon becomes ALL or None of a side, you will begin to see side A use nearly all of its resources to noe a base which now has completely captured the attention of both sides to fight off this now super horde. Hence you get both sides attacking the 1.
There are more dynamics involved here and are not all inclusive and I chose not to disclose the remainder of them, but this is what exactly happens from my observations.
I used to be in your shoes where I only saw it from 1/3 rd of the view point and was probably one of the biggest advocates for your argument at the time, now that I have seen it from all three sides I no longer hold that position
I have always been an advocate of getting the facts on your own and not what someone else tells you are the facts or at the least form an opinion with as much information as you can gather.
Many players in this post and several others really dont hold any truth to many of their arguments or observations since they only have 1/3 of the picture, your not going to get the whole story by reading just the cover.
If your in a squad that has pledged allegiance to a side, you will have to come to a point and decide what is important to you, your loyalty to a side that will limit you and the game on many aspects, or move on and grow.
There is just so much to this game and what it offers that many are blind to it.
This is my opinion and was formed from my experience, I have no fancy charts or graphs. Sorry. My use of the word You, it implies you in general as the reader.
:salute
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logged into LWB a while back with the uteris map. Rooks were steamrooling nits b/c they were leaving our front undefended so all the noobs made things worse by bombing their HQ.Meanwhile bish who had the bigger #s were steamrolling us. Common pattern each and every day. Seems you spank one day and get spanked the next.Switching sides wont do any better. If you are on the recieiving end, go to a peaceful section of the map and try to turn a blind eye to whats going on anywhere else { this is where you get pelted by those armchair generals for not contributing to the war effort.} Somedays its worse than others but things go full circle
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I have an idea.
It's not elaborated at all.
It would combine 2 game dynamics: ENY on country level and Earned perk points on the individual level.
An extension in the clipboard would show a dialog like:
=============================================================
Your country is penalized by ENY:
If the players of your country sacrifice
x thousand perk points within the next x minutes(count down), the following planes and loadouts will be available during the next x minutes
In the bucket: x thousand perk points
Stille needed: x thousand perk points
plane/loadaut
----------------------
xxx/yyy
.
.
.
If the x thousand perk points are delivered in the announced time span, the conversion perk points to reduced ENY is executed.
Otherwise the perk points are sent back to the individuals.
=============================================================
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Eny didn't stop hording, split arenas didn't stop hording, nor did the dumb idea that was implemented (and thank God it only lasted a weekend) where we had to take bases in a specific order, nor did radar changes that made the map look like a goat rope. I'm sure there are a few more failed attempts to satisfy the baby without a pacifier.
Making all these changes pisses more people off than the actual horde does. I'm still waiting for them to implement the Tom Tom so I can get around the towns.
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deleted (wrong button) hehe
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I am generally in favour of some sort of base limit that (when exceeded) influences the numbers of player who subsequently spawn from that base.
1)It could be a hard limit that simply stops further spawning until some of the numbers already spawned have landed, ditched bailed or died.
2)It could be a local base ENY influencing the type of rides now available, which would increase as numbers spawned above the base limit exceeds.
3)It could be a perk modifier which increases the perk cost of all rides now available, which would increase as numbers spawned above the base limit exceeds.
4)It could even be something else like fuel or ordinance rationing. Such that full fuel or heavy ordinance is not available until numbers spawned return to the base limit.
Hard limit is absolute and denys the player any choice except what other field he must now choose.
ENY limits choice by reducing the choice of rides available
Perk price allows choice but at a potential cost (to those who have perks to afford it) and limits choice to those who have very few perk points.
Resource rationing permits full choice of ride but may limit choice based upon endurance and ordinance.
Which ever "modifier" is used it then has to overcome some additional challenges.
It must be able to over come situations where a side has very few bases to the point where the player cannot choose another base without being penalised by the modifier. Therefore the maths setting the initial limit should take into account the number of bases (their types) in relation ship to the number of players a side has at any point. And/or uncapturable bases should be unlimited.
It should not penalise Tank town or Fighter towns bases where there is normally a greater number of local players. Again we see a need for some bases having special status.
A risk when initiating base limits (of any kind) is that they induce a local stalemate by over balancing the sides to an extent that neither ever has sufficient numbers for a victory condition. When considering this we should look to our terrains. If side A has two bases in proximity to side B's single base then we see that even with the base limit side A has a potential numerical superiority of 2 v1. IMO this is quite right. However if side tried to roll a single path thru side B's territory then side B would have massive potential local superiority around any base along this "string" of captured bases.
In this way base limits incourage frontal war fare / combat / gameplay spread along fronts.
However having said all this base limits would still only stop the excesses of horde driven game play. If the limit was set at e.g 15 or even 10 then much of the combat play we have already would continue unaffected.
However this number would be found by care full implementation over a prolonged period. Starting with say 30 and then gradually reducing until the desired effect was achieved.
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In hindsight to the original post, I must admit that "local ENY" may not have been the best title. The point of the thread/first post was that there should be a way to account for a side getting double teamed. In retrospect, I don't know that there is a way to determine that and, after several days of consideration (taking into account some of the posts), I see that a local ENY may not only be 'not an answer' but may actually make things worse.
I can imagine a scenario where country A is getting pushed back by hording countries B and C (both who have superior numbers). As "A" gets backed into a corner or a few bases, their numbers become so concentrated that even though they are outnumbered, they can be negatively affected by a "local ENY". (i.e. all of country A's forces being forced to fight at 1 or 2 bases).
That having been said, I retract the request for "local ENY"; however, the purpose of the original post still remains. If game play is negatively affected by the double team, how do you account for the lack of fight between two of them and not plague the underdog with ENY? Truth is I don't have the answer, but when I made the first post, there wasn't a word for what I was trying to describe and I may (or likely did) use the wrong phrase in asking for a 'fix.'
I still think that local ENY is appropriate if it would only take effect on the 'hording' attackers, but there is no way to determine that. Taking a point from Dads, it would be better to have NO ENY, than to have a local ENY that might affect the game as described just above.
To Dads... I get what you are saying about switching to another country and provoking a fight between the two. Unfortunately, at the time of my initial post, I was the only one of my squad logged on. I did not have a massive amount of time to play but wanted to get a few flights in. I saw that Bish were getting horded and double teamed, and saw an opportunity to get a few flights, earn some defense kills, and go about my day. Unfortunately, I couldn't up any defense against the bombers or the horde, because - on paper - it appeared that Bish had superior numbers. I know that you realize this, just as I also see your point. I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I just didn't have time or the resources to mount a legitimate provocation between the other two countries.
Nonetheless, yours and several others posts make valid points and arguments. It would appear that the only solution to the problem I described would be NO ENY. I would rather get horded by a bunch of 'uber' birds, than to have the opportunity to defend taken away by ENY.
:cheers: :salute