Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: CAP1 on January 26, 2011, 02:03:23 PM
-
please tell me why exactly this is necessary?
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/HPIM9260.jpg)
this is a heater hose assembly for a 2002 taurus.
WHY?! why is there a need for that mess, when for decades, having one hose go in, and one hose come out has worked perfectly? what the hell are these people smoking when they do this stuff? i mean......really? :headscratch: :bhead :bhead :bhead
-
With the newer engines and the emissions nowadays they are required.
But actually they are trying to make you :bhead and take it to a mechanic to install.. just my .02
-
With the newer engines and the emissions nowadays they are required.
But actually they are trying to make you :bhead and take it to a mechanic to install.. just my .02
:rofl :lol :ahand
-
With the newer engines and the emissions nowadays they are required.
But actually they are trying to make you :bhead and take it to a mechanic to install.. just my .02
that heater hose cannot effect emissions in any way shape or form.
and ui AM the mechanic :bhead :bhead
-
See what happens when you bash engineers and designers? They call the guys they went to school with and BOOM you've got a headache :devil
-
Probably a poorly designed engine having pockets or sectioned cooling paths.
-
It probably has more to do with assembly than anything else.
You must remember that auto manufacturers are in the business of building cars. They don't really care about the poor shmuck that has to work on it.
-
Cap I've been listening your selfpraising for years. For a super awesome mechanic that you claim to be you should be embarrassed.
It's a heater hose with the bypass. If heater core is completely closed off then it is bypassed. It's easier for engine to spin watter pump, thus it's more efficient.
Welcome to 21 century.
-
please tell me why exactly this is necessary?
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/HPIM9260.jpg)
this is a heater hose assembly for a 2002 taurus.
WHY?! why is there a need for that mess, when for decades, having one hose go in, and one hose come out has worked perfectly? what the hell are these people smoking when they do this stuff? i mean......really? :headscratch: :bhead :bhead :bhead
This is my random first-thought guess.
I'm thinking it has to do with people complaining it takes too long for their heaters to warm up when they start their car in the morning. Looks like they added a bypass to allow some partial quick recycling of the fluid so it gets back into engine sooner and gets warmer faster.
Edit - Now, why an in-and-out +bypass assembly requires 4 hoses (+ 8 clamps), 3 pipes, a dozen welds and other random pieces is something I can only speculate in my wildest dreams on...
-
Cap I've been listening your selfpraising for years. For a super awesome mechanic that you claim to be you should be embarrassed.
It's a heater hose with the bypass. If heater core is completely closed off then it is bypassed. It's easier for engine to spin watter pump, thus it's more efficient.
Welcome to 21 century.
you've missed the point.
what was wrong with the way bypass hoses have been for 50 years? they worked perfectly. why change? it's not as if it increased the efficiency, or made it easier to service.
-
This is my random first-thought guess.
I'm thinking it has to do with people complain it takes too long for their heaters to warm up when they start their car in the morning. Looks like they added a bypass to allow some partial quick recycling of the fluid so it gets back into engine sooner and gets warmer faster.
cars have almost always had a way for this.
i just flushed a cooling system on a 2000 durango last week, that had heat in about 3 minutes........with the old style.
-
The bypass hose makes it easier for sediment to build up in the heater core of these Taurus's, flush many of them every winter. Thanks engineers :aok. Go to the other side of the DOHC taurus's those years and change the assembly with the Thermostat in it, almost a 200 dollar part :noid.
:salute
BigRat
-
This is my random first-thought guess.
I'm thinking it has to do with people complaining it takes too long for their heaters to warm up when they start their car in the morning. Looks like they added a bypass to allow some partial quick recycling of the fluid so it gets back into engine sooner and gets warmer faster.
Edit - Now, why an in-and-out +bypass assembly requires 4 hoses (+ 8 clamps), 3 pipes, a dozen welds and other random pieces is something I can only speculate in my wildest dreams on...
Didnt they used to use a simple thermostat for that?
-
cars have almost always had a way for this.
i just flushed a cooling system on a 2000 durango last week, that had heat in about 3 minutes........with the old style.
I never said it was a good idea now CAP, damn. :D You're talking ot the pastor of the "if it ain't broke..." congregation.
-
You know what your question should have been?
Why did people have to become engineers?
I see more engineers screw up a good basic design than they ever improve it or make it easier to work with. ESPECIALLY most mechanical engineers.
-
As a designer I resemble that remark sir!! :old:
-
you've missed the point.
what was wrong with the way bypass hoses have been for 50 years? they worked perfectly. why change? it's not as if it increased the efficiency, or made it easier to service.
You honestly think that it's over engenered? I think it's as primitive as it gets.
-
I believe he means poorly engineered.
-
I believe he means poorly engineered.
Something is poorly engineered in POS Ford Taurus, wow, amazing.
-
Something is poorly engineered in POS Ford Taurus, wow, amazing.
taurus's were crap in the 80's, till about 93 or 94 or so. then ford got it right. they had decent engines(although the 3.0L DOHC is a pain in the nuts to work on), finally overcame the transmission problems they had, and they were dependable cars.
i've got a 95 with the 3.8L(junk compared to the 3.0L) with 153k on the clock. she cruises at 80mph easily, gets to that speed nicely, and averages 30mpg. comfortable to drive, comfortable back seat, handles very nicely.
there's nothing wrong with the later taurus's.....'cept that dam heater hose assembly. and primitive or advanced doesn't matter. what matters is function. the old style thermostat housing with the bypass hose built into it that's worked flawlessly for decades was simpler, easier(read that cheaper for the customer) to service, never went bad(unlike this design. i should note that the dealer had it in stock. when a dealer stocks something, that generally means it's a common failure.)
so we're back to this. this design did not improve functionality. it did not improve service costs for the customer. it did not change anything for the better. so what purpose other than to raise the customers cost does this thing really serve?
oh yea.......bigrat was right....it DOES help allow more sediment to settle into the heater core......i flushed this one before i put that mess back on the car.
-
A lot of cars have lost their essence of simplicity. The new Holden Commodore (which was once considered if you had a pair of pointy nose pliers and a coat hanger you could fix anything.) has now been fitted with a touch screen in the dash which controls all sorts of stuff. If this screen fails, as it will, its going to cost bucketloads for an expert (1st year apprentice with a shifting spanner.) to fix it so you can play the radio and turn on your airconditioning. This will be the downfall of automobiles because its just going to be to expensive to maintain them. I'm looking at about a five year life span for a lot of new vehicles.
-
A lot of cars have lost their essence of simplicity. The new Holden Commodore (which was once considered if you had a pair of pointy nose pliers and a coat hanger you could fix anything.) has now been fitted with a touch screen in the dash which controls all sorts of stuff. If this screen fails, as it will, its going to cost bucketloads for an expert (1st year apprentice with a shifting spanner.) to fix it so you can play the radio and turn on your airconditioning. This will be the downfall of automobiles because its just going to be to expensive to maintain them. I'm looking at about a five year life span for a lot of new vehicles.
ya know? i find myself agreeing with that. especially if you look at the fact it's hard to get parts oftentimes for a 9 year old car.
-
I see what they were going for, but it could have been done much, much simpler. A simple 'H' tube would have sufficed and would be cheaper to implement. However, the entire design concept is problematic.
Coolant will take the path of least resistance, which is the crossover tube. Back pressure from that flow is all that is available to push coolant through the heater core. Just as others have said, it will promote heater core clogging.
It is just a bad design.
-
Because it was funner to make those shapes in a CAD program than something simple and boring?
:cool:,
Wab
-
taurus's were crap in the 80's, till about 93 or 94 or so. then ford got it right. they had decent engines(although the 3.0L DOHC is a pain in the nuts to work on), finally overcame the transmission problems they had, and they were dependable cars.
I have a 93 Taurus and I really like it
-
If it were my own personal design choice and the bypass was desired to promote faster warm-up I'd use a simple valve connected to the thermostat or that is independently heat-tripped. Full open all times to either the bypass or to the exchanger..... hell why circulate the fluid at all during that warm up? Why not just let it sit for a few seconds varying on an initial tempurature reading from the thermostate after briefly starting circulation at engine start (this way the water pump gets diagnosed at startup as functioning or not too). I know those new Tauruses gotta have a module hooked up to the thermostat and water pump already.
-
what was wrong with having a hose from the radiator go to the core, and the exit to the water pump....wait....that's backwards....waterpump in then out from the core to the rad.
-
Its the same reason its always been. Just ask yourself where car manufacturers make the money.
-
Its the same reason its always been. Just ask yourself where car manufacturers make the money.
what's financing got to do with this?
-
I see what they were going for, but it could have been done much, much simpler. A simple 'H' tube would have sufficed and would be cheaper to implement. However, the entire design concept is problematic.
Coolant will take the path of least resistance, which is the crossover tube. Back pressure from that flow is all that is available to push coolant through the heater core. Just as others have said, it will promote heater core clogging.
It is just a bad design.
Heater core clogs because of engine block corrosion, design has nothing to do with it. Poor quality metal with corrosive coolant leads to electrolysis-induced heater core clogging. Others just wrong:)
-
what was wrong with having a hose from the radiator go to the core, and the exit to the water pump....wait....that's backwards....waterpump in then out from the core to the rad.
I do not want hundreds of gallons pumped through my heater core at 4000 rpm. without bypass, it's just too much pressure:)
-
Heater core clogs because of engine block corrosion, design has nothing to do with it. Poor quality metal with corrosive coolant leads to electrolysis-induced heater core clogging. Others just wrong:)
actually, it's more a lack of maintenance that causes this, not poor quality metal. and yes, design does indeed have something to do with the core clogging.
-
I do not want hundreds of gallons pumped through my heater core at 4000 rpm. without bypass, it's just too much pressure:)
there have been bypasses on cars for at least 3 decades. and the ones we used to use, actually worked reliably.
-
actually, it's more a lack of maintenance that causes this, not poor quality metal. and yes, design does indeed have something to do with the core clogging.
The majority of repeat heater core leaks are due to high flow rate or use of poor quality coolant. (Explains bypass.)
Check for voltage in the cooling system by touching the negative contact of a voltmeter to the battery ground or a known good ground and suspend the positive lead in the coolant, making sure it is in contact with the coolant but not touching any metal part of the radiator or cooling system.
I'm surprised you don't know that.
-
The majority of repeat heater core leaks are due to high flow rate or use of poor quality coolant. (Explains bypass.)
Check for voltage in the cooling system by touching the negative contact of a voltmeter to the battery ground or a known good ground and suspend the positive lead in the coolant, making sure it is in contact with the coolant but not touching any metal part of the radiator or cooling system.
I'm surprised you don't know that.
i do know that.
we were at first talking clogged cored. now you're talking about leaking cores.
if you want to go to leaking cores, i've replaced more 95 to present cores than older ones. i think i could safely say that in that 95 and newer group, most of them have been 2000 or newer. when we have all of this newer types of bypasses.
in fact, the only heater cores i remember replacing(whether clogged or leaking) was in the fox bodied fords. a LOT of them used to clog. and a leaker in my 85 e-350.
the most common leakers i had were the chevy cavaliers, and the other gm products based on that chassis. ingenious design there. lets use aluminum core with plastic tanks, and inlets. i did so many of them, that i had it down to under 30 minutes....and that's if i was screwing off.
-
Heater core clogs because of engine block corrosion, design has nothing to do with it. Poor quality metal with corrosive coolant leads to electrolysis-induced heater core clogging. Others just wrong:)
I was referring to the specific design of the part in question. Clogging will occur quicker as the coolant velocity is reduced, which helps deposit particles (particles from block corrosion and other deposited particles from the rest of the coolant system), which slows the coolant more, which deposits more particles and so on.
Electrolysis is going to occur no matter what the flow is like. Actually, allowing the coolant to rest in place will exacerbate the corrosive effects, once electrolysis has started it all.
Damage from old coolant is going to be more of a factor than electrolysis will be.
I do not want hundreds of gallons pumped through my heater core at 4000 rpm. without bypass, it's just too much pressure:)
Coolant is not pumped directly from the water pump through a heater core. Virtually all coolant systems tap off of a feed to direct coolant into the core. The back pressure is minimal. The pressure the coolant is under cause more stress than any flow will.
Of course, that assumes a reasonably well designed coolant system.
-
voltage is to be expected in a cooling system. .3V and less is pretty much acceptable in iron engines. i think it's just about .1 or so is acceptable in alum. engines.
deposits in the heater core, and radiator will happen from not keeping your cooling system clean and maintained, regardless of engine build quality.
-
i do know that.
we were at first talking clogged cored. now you're talking about leaking cores.
if you want to go to leaking cores, i've replaced more 95 to present cores than older ones. i think i could safely say that in that 95 and newer group, most of them have been 2000 or newer. when we have all of this newer types of bypasses.
in fact, the only heater cores i remember replacing(whether clogged or leaking) was in the fox bodied fords. a LOT of them used to clog. and a leaker in my 85 e-350.
the most common leakers i had were the chevy cavaliers, and the other gm products based on that chassis. ingenious design there. lets use aluminum core with plastic tanks, and inlets. i did so many of them, that i had it down to under 30 minutes....and that's if i was screwing off.
I was explaining presents of a bypass not leaking cores. But yeah it's kinda confusing, sorry.
Cap according to you core clogs due to poor maintenance. The damn thing clogs every year, how often does coolant need to be changed? If for various reasons heater core becomes anode, coolant will corrode engine block.
-
My 98 Z-71..... the tube out of the intake manifold that you connected the heater hose to was made of pewter.
How genius was that. I bought the truck new in 98 and the tube disentegrated in 2000. Replaced it with a steel unit.
-
I was explaining presents of a bypass not leaking cores. But yeah it's kinda confusing, sorry.
Cap according to you core clogs due to poor maintenance. The damn thing clogs every year, how often does coolant need to be changed? If for various reasons heater core becomes anode, coolant will corrode engine block.
i've never had a recurring heater core clog.
but poor maintenance can and will cost you a lot.
had a toyota corolla a couple of months ago. looked like it had never been flushed. ever. i'll have to go looking. i think i still have pictures of the crap that came out of that one. it cost him a radiator, and a LOT of flushing.
i generally recommend my customers to flush their systems once a year. either beginning of winter, or beginning of summer. i do this, because of all of the "better" coolants out there. plain old green antifreeze works wonders, and doesn't make nearly as many problems as dexcool, or some of the other coolants. in fact, i'd have to say that dexcool is most probably the absolute worst coolant out there.
then there's the G-12 used in vw/audis.......stuff's nearly $50 a gallon!!!!
basic maintenance on ANY car will alleviate most all problems. the corolla i mentioned, belongs to a customer that brings me a fleet of 8 vehicles. the previous shop they went to pretty much did nothing. these cars were in horrible shape. after about a year, i've got them to a fully preventative stance now. now, they only come in for basic maintenance, or the occasional failure, such as the malibu sitting out there now, "burping" the cooling system.....from a blown hose.
cool thing is that now their drivers feel confident when they get in these cars......all of them except for 3 have over 200k on them. the malibu out thetre has 291k.
-
I was explaining presents of a bypass not leaking cores. But yeah it's kinda confusing, sorry.
Cap according to you core clogs due to poor maintenance. The damn thing clogs every year, how often does coolant need to be changed? If for various reasons heater core becomes anode, coolant will corrode engine block.
wait? this is from your post i quoted?
The majority of repeat heater core leaks are due to high flow rate or use of poor quality coolant. (Explains bypass.)
-
My 98 Z-71..... the tube out of the intake manifold that you connected the heater hose to was made of pewter.
How genius was that. I bought the truck new in 98 and the tube disentegrated in 2000. Replaced it with a steel unit.
you should see the various 3.8L configurations.
one has the coolant system going through the alternator bracket
some have a plastic tube threaded into the intake, which disintegrates. some have a plastic elbow that does the same.
-
Because it was funner to make those shapes in a CAD program than something simple and boring?
:cool:,
Wab
Plus now it can serve a dual purpose.
You could give it to one of your kids to make a windchime.
-
you should see the various 3.8L configurations.
one has the coolant system going through the alternator bracket
some have a plastic tube threaded into the intake, which disintegrates. some have a plastic elbow that does the same.
Don't forget about the plastic thermostat housings BMW used for many years (not sure if they still do). Almost always insured the owner would be buying a new engine when it went out. Of course, it never failed until the warranty expired.
-
Don't forget about the plastic thermostat housings BMW used for many years (not sure if they still do). Almost always insured the owner would be buying a new engine when it went out. Of course, it never failed until the warranty expired.
are you talking the computer controlled thermostats, or just the plain old plastic ones before the computer controlled ones? which also tend to go bad.
-
I was talking about the housing itself being made from plastic. It has been a couple of years since I was crawling around in the engine compartment of a BMW.
-
It's honestly hard to picture in my pea little brain but I don't doubt it for a second.
-
I was talking about the housing itself being made from plastic. It has been a couple of years since I was crawling around in the engine compartment of a BMW.
AAHH...GOTCHA.
the oldest i've worked on lately has been a 2000 3 series. it has a plastic t-stat housing, the thermostat is part of the housing, and it has a bosch type connector on it.
-
AAHH...GOTCHA.
the oldest i've worked on lately has been a 2000 3 series. it has a plastic t-stat housing, the thermostat is part of the housing, and it has a bosch type connector on it.
Wow! That cannot be the original. The OEM units usually make it for 5 years, or so.
I was following a 540 home one night. He was doing about 85MPH and the housing blew. Engine siezed before he could stop.
There is an aftermarket steel housing available. Not sure for what engines though.
-
what's financing got to do with this?
:rofl seriously.
-
i've never had a recurring heater core clog.
Now you just lying. No matter how poorly mainanted cooling system is, it shouldn't turn coolant into brown foamy thick substance because of bad design.
-
Now you just lying. No matter how poorly mainanted cooling system is, it shouldn't turn coolant into brown foamy thick substance because of bad design.
foamy stuff doesn't clog heater cores.
the crap that the antifreeze circulates when you don't flush your cooling system does.
or in the case of cadillac, there's the cadillac asperins that tend to do that....but i don't think we need to go there.
-
Wow! That cannot be the original. The OEM units usually make it for 5 years, or so.
I was following a 540 home one night. He was doing about 85MPH and the housing blew. Engine siezed before he could stop.
There is an aftermarket steel housing available. Not sure for what engines though.
How long does it take to stop a vehicle doing 85 MPH, 10-15 seconds? Engine overheated and ceased in 15 second? There is a bright red light in temp gauge that comes on whenever there is an overheat danger. People love to cover that up with a picture of loved once.
-
foamy stuff doesn't clog heater cores.
the crap that the antifreeze circulates when you don't flush your cooling system does.
Indeed, we flush it because it looses it's properties and turns corrosive.
-
How long does it take to stop a vehicle doing 85 MPH, 10-15 seconds? Engine overheated and ceased in 15 second? There is a bright red light in temp gauge that comes on whenever there is an overheat danger. People love to cover that up with a picture of loved once.
they cover up the CEL here that way. when i get a car in for an oil change, if i see any pictures on the instrument cluster, i look behind it.
it was also more than likely running redline temp for some time before the housing finally let loose.
in our shop race car, the only thing that saved that engine, was the fact that i like redundancy. besides the oil pressure gauge, i put a big red light on the dash. hooked it to a switch set for 20psi.
sure enough, on a round i won.......think i ran a 10.23 or somewhere close......right on my number. lifted the throttle to decelerate, and that big red light nearly blinded me. i looked over at the oil pressure just as i reached up to shut the ignition off....and sure enough, it was dropping just past 20psi according to the gauge.
-
Indeed, we flush it because it looses it's properties and turns corrosive.
and what happens when it becomes corrosive?
-
and what happens when it becomes corrosive?
Yes Cap, i should say contaminates cooling system and clogs a lotta crap, but. Most cooling system will not be as corroded as Taurus's. The reason for that corrosion we cant seem to agree on.
-
Yes Cap, i should say contaminates cooling system and clogs a lotta crap, but. Most cooling system will not be as corroded as Taurus's. The reason for that corrosion we cant seem to agree on.
lack of maintenance. plain and simple. and i've NEVER seen anything screwed up as much as a poorly maintained gm cooling system with dexcool in it.
-
lack of maintenance. plain and simple. and i've NEVER seen anything screwed up as much as a poorly maintained gm cooling system with dexcool in it.
Again, we disagree. Anyway it was fun, thank you for your time. :salute
-
Again, we disagree. Anyway it was fun, thank you for your time. :salute
well.....just so ya know....i posted the original post half in fun....half venting, because i had to tell my customer a simple heater hose was costing her as much as this dam thing is.
i didn't intend to get any arguments started here. i am somewhat disappointed my favorite engineer didn't post though. i'm hurt. devastated. :x
-
your favorite designer did...
you're a meanie poopiehead and do not understand the subtle beauty of a design even if it is hard to work with.
Naysayer, heretic, Neanderthal, closet fan of the Milwaukee Brewers!!!!
So THERE :P